ChocolateMuse Café II

Welcome to the relocated, refurbished, all-new, under same-old management ChocolateMuse Café!

You are in a transient place that changes as its propietor changes books. Currently, this is less a café and more something of a wharfside inn in Nantucket. (I've never had to write 'inn in' before.) Ale and rum are more the order of the day than your fancy-shmancy mochas and lattés - though on special request in a back room and for a substantial sovereign or two, something may be arranged.

Picture to yourself smoke-stained stone walls, low beams above, chipped wooden tables and hard benches, tobacco smoke curling through the firelit room. It's warm, but rough. Bearded sailors with suspicious eyes sit in dark corners; the smell of fish and salt sea is smothered by thick pipe-smoke and a warm, delicious aroma of chowder (corn or clam). There is an enigmatic picture of something on entry to the inn, and other pictures of whales and whaling hang crookedly around.

In one dark corner, drawing everyone's eyes, seeming to glow in the gloom, is the picture of Moby-Dick, the White Whale Himself.

So matey, you're really into it! Me, too! Off to read Chapter 43, "Hark!" Wish I had more time to read. I don't know where you are, and I don't want to ruin anything, so I'll leave you with only this...

"Through it's inexpressible, strange eyes, methought I peeped to secrets which took hold of God."

oh I like this new place. Very congenial for a cat. Where's the Captain?

Ah, good. A Cat is just precisely what we needed in here. The Captain is nowhere to be seen, but there's a prime spot for you just in front of the fire.

Teresa, me hearty, you're just a couple of knots ahead of me. I'm at Chapter 41, fittingly titled Moby-Dick. Thanks for the quote.

A_Musing, for when you get in here, yes I am seeing the humour and enjoying it. But now you've said that, I'll stop thinking of the humour as incidental and start seeing it as an intrinsic part of the whole thing.

Ah! You are near upon, and te has just sailed past, the Whiteness of the Whale, a chapter of eponymous brilliance!

Keep a sharp watch, for the light can be blinding.

A nautical mile is one of the units of distance used at sea. In one simple usage it is 2000 yards. In another simple usage it is one minute of latitude. They are not very different. A nautical mile per hour is a unit of speed. In terser usage it is called a knot -- a knot is a unit of speed.

Robert

What kinda chowder? Manhattan or New England? I ain't stickin' around if it's that creamy glop.

And Manhattan clam chowder isn't chowder.

Robert

Thanks Robert. I actually knew that - well, not the details, but at least that it's a unit of speed. But I didn't know what else to put (nautical mile too big for the situation) and figured no one'd care very much anyway. But thanks for putting us right :)

Piero! Your first official post here, how very honoured I am. Have you been lurking long? The clam chowder can be described thusly:

"...made of small juicy clams, scarcely bigger than hazel nuts, mixed with pounded ship biscuits, and salted pork cut up into little flakes; the whole enriched with butter, and plentifully seasoned with pepper and salt." from Ch. 15: Chowder. Good enough for you to stay?

A_Musing, I was indeed blinded, with a beautiful and terrible white blindness. To continue Teresa's quote in #3, regarding a white albotross: "As Abraham before the angels, I bowed myself; the white thing was so white, its wings so wide, and in those for ever exiled waters, I had lost the miserable warping memories of traditions and towns."

Good to see you getting out and about, Sheila. Or is it oot and aboot, down under? I like the tomato based kind of chowder they serve at the racetrack, but I'll pop in now and then anyway, to keep an eye on Mr. Durick aka Robert, among other things. He cracks me up.

I do actually have a bookish thing to add to the subject, an ancient hardback I found in a rickety old house in Kittery, Maine (where they eat the wrong kind of chowder), called Studies in Classic American Literature, edited by D. H. Lawrence, who contributed a rambling but interesting essay on Moby Dick, which he thought the great work of American literature. Made a convincing case, I thought, but not so much that I would subject myself to the intense boredom I experienced while reading about the manufacture of whale blubber the first time around.

Well, I'm across the country from New England, but my kind of chowder is the kind with at least a half a pound of chopped bacon in the pot, thinly sliced potatoes (not chopped), lots of grilled onion, milk, and a dollop of butter on top--oh, and the clams! Actually, in our family this is called "potato soup" and the clams don't always go in everyone's bowl, come to think of it.

>8 copyedit52:: All the more for me! ;-)

Dropping by to say hello! I’m finally back after a two weeks hiatus. Glad to have found your new thread, Muse.

No, Petro, it is Not oot and aboot down here. More like ouwt and abouwt. You're thinking of that obscure place called Scotland, which is just a little ways to the north of here...

I love ancient hardbacks, but generally prefer to hold and sniff them than read them.

Bonnie, come visit me with your potato soup any old time.

Hi Porua! Your thread did get awfully quiet while you were gone.

You wouldn't've wanted to sniff this book. It, and the whole charmingly decrepit house in Kittery, was a petri dish for mold. There was another good essay in that same book, btw, in case anyone's innerested, on Walt Whitman.

# 14 "Your thread did get awfully quiet while you were gone."

Yeah because I'm pretty much the only one who posts on it! ;-)

Jokes aside, it feels good to be back. I've missed all of my friends here.

Everybody comes to ChocolateMuse Cafe.

#17 - Awww. Have a hot rum toddy. Or something. :)

Porua, you are not. I see I've got a bit to catch up on over there after only three days away.

Ishmael has just excaped death by the width of a gnat's eyebrow, and he thus philosophises:

There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own... as for small difficulties and worryings, prospects of sudden disaster, peril of life and limb; all these, and death itself, seem to him only sly, good-natured hits, and jolly punches in the side bestowed by the unseen and unaccountable old joker.

The problem with Melville's wittiness is it's so wordy and relies on such a build-up that it's too hard to quote examples of it without copying out the entire tome.

Miss Muse, you were asking me about a Demonic review earlier....... tis done.

On the subject of Chowder... Out on the Left coast we have a couple of Chowder houses that I consider to be the best. Mo's and Jake's and the former Whale Cove Inn. Mo's and WCI are on the Oregon Coast and Jake's is in Downtown PDX. All are of the creamy variety with lots of chunky potatoes and plenty of clams with a nice big dollop of butter and either oyster crackers or fresh baked rolls. I think my favorite has to be a Bowl and a Roll from Whale Cove Inn. (32oz bowl of chowder and the largest roll you could imagine)

I like the new place, Rena! Though I have no clue what the Right coast is like. Having only been inland in Connecticut and North Carolina.

My good luck: managed to read my way all thru former site this morning. . . . there messages #24 & 28 prompted me to send you to G. B. Edwards "Ebenezer LePage" for Guernsey Isles; to Diane Smith "Letters from Yellowstone" for epistolary novels. (As for "I Capture the Castle" must mention that it found an unlikely fan in a "back-row boy" in Freshman Composition class I taught at Oklahoma State years ago.) ****Glad to have found you.

Very excited about the Demonic review. I'm going to read essai and novel side-by-side, soon as I get a couple more of my TBRs out of the way.

Tani, I have no idea what the Right coast is like either, apart from what Melville tells me.

And Esta, hearty greetings and welcome to the cafe! There's a spot by the fire near Murr for you, top location for our two oldest members (Murr is older by a few centuries, but if he emits too many vodka fumes I'll put him out in the cold). Thanks for those recommendations.

Pssst, pssst ... no mention of Christie here?

I'm going to keep you from neglecting your pure "pleasure reads" in this thread, if I can. They want your love too! ;)

Nathan, they're ALL pleasure reads! :)

Our friend ncgraham is referring to the fact that I recently ducked out of the whaling ship for a bit to have a brief holiday at Bertram's Hotel.

I'm happy to mention them Nathan, if it makes you happy :P but please don't make me review them! Way too much of a hassle.

I won't. :P It's just that, if I hadn't been snooping about Porua's thread as well, I wouldn't have known you read that—and wouldn't have the option to quiz you endlessly about it, if I felt so inclined. (Which I don't. Count yourself lucky.)

Ah yes, "pleasure reads" wasn't exactly the term I was looking for ... fluff, popcorn reads, genre fiction ... whatever you like.

#23, 24 & 25 I reviewed At Bertrams Hotel a few weeks ago (Muse knows that of course).

Snooping about my thread? That sounds kind of stalkerish! LOL! I do wish you'd say hello more often though.

Ahoy there! I'll tip my sailor's cap rakishly on one side, pull up a stool and take a bottle of your finest rum, with hearty cheers... You can keep that whale for the time being though - I've got quite enough on my plate with the all-consuming revenge of Edmond Dantes to take on any more just yet!

Oh yeah. I have a cafe.

To all my loyal patrons: we are still open. It's just that, well, I've put off confessing this, but I've kind of lost interest in Moby Dick for the time being. It's a good thing A_Musing seems to have returned to the ether. He'd never forgive me.

I'm reading fluff at the moment, not going to describe it in further detail. Trust me, you don't need to know.

But on the non-fluff side, I am also reading Love in the Western World by Denis de Rougemount, which was recommended I think by Porius. If it wasn't Porius it was geneg. Either way, it's quite fascinating, and I wish I had the erudition to write about it intelligently. Maybe I'll attain enough erudition, or a pale copy of it, to write about it soon.

Oh, and I haven't entirely thrown off Moby Dick I may yet return to it before this Antipodean winter is out. I'm just taking my brain off the boil for a while.

Off the boil. I like that.

:) It's not copyright, Piero. You can use it in your next book if you like. Just make sure you dedicate it to me.

You want me to dedicate a book to you? Sight unseen? Without even knowing what it's about? Sounds to me as if you're still on the boil.

I'll tell you my fluff if you tell me yours... ;-)

Piero, haven't you said that the next book is all the decades after Digging Deeper? (Okay, not a real touchstone yet). I wasn't going to tell you until after I'd read it, Piero, but I have now purchased I think, therefore who am I? and it's waiting hopefully on my shelf. From flicking through it, I think I'd be proud to have (almost) anything you wrote dedicated to me :)

For the record, I confessed to Tani (#32), and she was true to her word. Our respective fluff reads are about on an equal scale, I'm proud to state.

I have returned to The Whale again, in addition to a brief Bronte excursion - The Professor and Agnes Grey. Don't know yet if I'll review the latter two or not.

However, I have now witnessed (via Melville) a whale being hunted, killed and stripped down. A hideous process. I read that bit very literally, not sure how much more there is in it than the actual events.

And how about that recent bit of news: whale smashes into yacht: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn19213-teenage-drivers-why-whales-smash-int... - Melville lives! Yes!!

Oh, I love Agnes Grey! It may not be a "great work," but Miss Grey is dear to my heart. If I ever get a dog, I'm going to name it Snap (also the name of the dog in Silas Marner).

OK, I can understand running out of steam, but "lost interest"????

I haven't made it through Moby Dick every time I've picked it up, but I've never lost interest!

Back to the ether for me.

When I lost interest in Moby Dick, Sam, I assumed it was my fault. Not just public opinion but also literary opinion is a bitch goddess. But that was a while and many books ago, put aside unfinished. A great book it might be, but sometimes when you lose interest it's because the story and its interruptions (to extract oil from blubber or whatever) no longer interest you.

Ooooh, my recent read of The Brontes Went to Woolworths left me with a strong desire to read more of the Brontes' works. Of course, I do have Wuthering Heights on my list for the fall, and I'm sure I can do a Jane Eyre reread and read some more Charlotte and some Anne after that.

By the way, I've been meaning to ask: dark or milk?

(I've been musing far too much on chocolate recently, for a person who can't eat much.)

Most of the world shall never "get" Moby Dick. For those who don't get the humor, it's just too much of a slog - I don't know how they can get through it. For those who don't like the puzzles, or who find the philsophy distracting from the story rather than complimentary, well, they won't get it either, or won't have the patience for it, or just won't find in it what they want of a book.

But for those few of us who find the humor and who love the multi-varied depth, the many different wefts old Herman sends through the ever metaphorical warp, his ongoing love-hate relationship with the God he doubts exists but is sure motivates everything, his willingness to pause and really explore an image or a thought ... well, it's still a lot of work, often just an enormous amount, but the kind of work that pays off mightily.

So, yes, I do hope it's not a loss of interest, though those occur, just as you lose some crew on any sail. But I hope we haven't lost Muse, and she just needs to tie up at an apparently friendly port for a while and experience a few other adventures, knowing that the Whale is still out there, unseen, taking a deep drought of the unseen before diving fathoms down into the dark and cold, challenging us to follow...

ohhhhh no, I knew I had good reason to fear making that confession. I probably wouldn't have done it if I knew A_Musing would arise from the ether and glare at me with burning eyes like that. :(

Time for self analysis: "Loss of interest" was not the right phrase - like I said further on, it was more of a brain burnout. I needed a break. Also, Melville makes me feel dumb, because I don't understand so much of what he's hiding under all those layers. Like in #33, where I say I read the killing and stripping of the whale very literally, and don't know how much else I missed. All the way through, I know I'm missing heaping amounts of wondrous things, and my self esteem can only take so much of that.

I don't think I'm missing the humour, Sam, I keep seeing it, and I like it. And it's not that I don't like the puzzles, it's that I don't get them! As Piero says, it wasn't the book that failed, it was ME (well, he didn't say it quite like that).

Well *sigh* I am trying again. Ahoy and avast, and all that.

Meddy, Agnes Grey is indeed loveable. I'd read it before - from what Charlotte writes about her sisters (apparently questionable), Miss Grey is a lot like Anne herself. And I really must read Silas Marner. Soon.

Thanks Piero. Most of that applies to me too.

Nathan, read The Tenant of Wildfell Hall if you haven't already. It's a fascinating work. I think of all the sisters Anne fascinates me the most as a person - Charlotte was the greater genius I think, though it just might be that she was older, and lived longer, and wrote more. And Porua would disagree and say that Emily is the greatest.

I don't know why it's so hard to refrain from comparing the three sisters. Why can't we just let them exist on their own?

And: dark if it's Lindt, milk if it's Cadbury's. Do you have Cadbury's over there?

Maybe in a decade or two, Darlin' Rena, you will get it too. Though I have not yet read it, it is on my tbr pile, I look forward to it after all of this discussion. Hopefully at my age, I will get it. Gawd, I hope so... I'll let you know. ;-)

If Melville read it all a few years after he wrote it, he wouldn't get it all. Don't despair.

Have you noticed that Agnes Grey is published just 4 years before Moby Dick?

“And Porua would disagree and say that Emily is the greatest.”

But I don’t know if I’ll say that. You see, I’m yet to read anything by Anne and I read Jane Eyre a long time ago. Wuthering Heights on the other hand, I’ve read and re-read a few times. I think, I’ll not say anything until I read something by Anne and possibly re-read Jane Eyre.

BTW, I love Cadbury's! They're just so good!

Ohhh, yes, we have Cadbury's. It's been ages since I had one. They're rawther expensive for what they are, IMO. I'm rather fond of Dove, myself. So creamy and good and cheap! Far too much emphasis on price, I know. It's my Scottish blood coming through again! Gah, all this talk about chocolate makes me want some. If I get off jury duty early tomorrow, I'll swing by the health food store and bravely face my alternatives. *gulp*

I don't know why it's so hard to refrain from comparing the three sisters. Why can't we just let them exist on their own?

I think because it's just such an unusual phenomenon—three novelists in one family. As a writer, it fascinates me. They had similar childhood experiences, read many of the same books, etc., yet they had their own distinct personalities and (from what I understand) styles. Seeing how this comes through on the written page is something I very much look forward to.

>42 A_musing: Somehow, I'd always imagined the Brontes to be many decades previous to Melville. I keep forgetting how long ago he was, and get surprised by some of the archaicisms(?) in the book.

Nathan, I like your thoughts on comparing the Brontes. Also, this is for you (this being a cafe and all):



That'll be $9.95, thanks.

Right, this cafe is bowing out of Nantucket. We've been there long enough. I've finally confessed to A_Musing that Moby Dick is too much for me at this point in time. It's Les Mis all over again - too much pressure to like it, so I end up not liking it at all.

Not proud of that, but it happens.

So. We'll leave Nantucket with this, one of a series of lovely images by Rockwell Kent. More are linked on my profile in a message by eugenegant.

A fitting picture, Choco. Cheer up. There are other whales in the ocean.

yeeah, don't push it. if it's not for you now, it might be for you later in 10 years or so. Maybe it's just not the right time for you to read it now.

So now that you have been liberated from the clutches of the whale, what's next?

Thank you Piero. I've started one - whale in size, but not in subject matter. The only appearance of whales in this book is in the corsets of the ladies...

The decor has suddenly become a whole lot more elegant. Beautiful women wearing furs and jewels. Innocent young girls in love. Bearded men, some of them idealistic and hopeful, others lecherous and overconfident. A lot of princes and princesses - a confusing amount of them, in fact.

The front room, in which is served wine, vodka and coffee, looks out onto a snowy street - grey, cold, muddy. Horse-drawn carriages, the distant sound of a train.

The back room, in which is served ale, vodka and tea, looks out onto early spring fields, muddy and green, the thaw sparkling in the brilliant sunshine. Peasants are harrowing in the mud (for little reward), and there are yearling calves playing in the sunshine and the wind.

The menu features oysters, herring, and tiny truffles.

Ooh, Murr came while I was composing the above! Can you guess what's next, Murrushka?

I smell the heady whiff of adultery........

One of my favorites, Renya! Ah, to be young(er) and in love in Petersburg.

Eat some chocolate and move on (but avoid the herring - only a Russian could like that stuff)! There be time enough for whales...

Thanks, Sam.



I went looking for some iconic image to represent Anna Karenina in this cafe. Murr or somebody else will probably have a better one than this.

I don't know if it's just me, but I'm much more engaged with Kitty's story than with Anna's. Is it something to do with my age, do you think? Or is it Tolstoy's purpose?

Seems to me we are given a much more thorough undersanding of Kitty's thoughts and motives and sad desires than we do of Anna, who we seem to mostly see from the outside, through somebody else's eyes.

I was too... Anna was so tragic and her insecurities were kind of annoying.

I just finally caught up with this enjoyable thread - a great cafe with delicious chocolates (though Cadbury is a bit too sweet for me) ...sorry MD didn't work for you CMuse, but love your picture (post #46). I've never considered trying MD, not sure why not. For what its worth, your thread actually makes me want to give it a try.

Anna Karenina is one book I know I’m not ready to read any time soon. But I'm still interested in hearing what you have to say about it, Rena.

You know, I think I read Anna Karenina a long, long time ago, back when I was a callow teen rummaging the adult shelves at the library in search of something I hadn't yet read (it was a really small library). I'll try to be spoiler-free here: I remember the intensity of one scene in particular, with the train coming and its total inevitability. Tolstoy really made me believe in her reasons. That's all I remember and I know I need to reread. Hope you enjoy it! I look forward to your thoughts.

Aw, Amy, I think I can guess something from that... :( Maybe I'm wrong. Anyway, I want to read your review when you do reread!

>57 dchaikin: Dan, a thousand welcomes! Make yourself comfortable - front room with the high society snobs or back room with Levin and co - the choice is yours. If you do try MD, keep us informed!

>58 Porua: Porua, may I ask your reasons for not reading AK soon? Is it just the towering TBR? That's my main reason for supposing I won't get to Dostoevsky until next year. On the other hand, I'm choosing not to read Proust until I'm older, since I don't think I'm ready for him yet. Seems Melville is the same.

> 56 Tani, I'm glad you agree.

As an update - in addition to Anna Karenina, I am also reading The Same River Twice as well as I Think, Therefore Who Am I?. Three very different books, all fantastic. What a good year I'm having :)

#60 "I'm choosing not to read Proust until I'm older, since I don't think I'm ready for him yet."

Precisely my reasons for not reading Anna Karenina any time soon. I’ve read some short stories by Tolstoy. But I think I’m kind of young for his heavier works. Weird since I read my first Dickens at 10 but Tolstoy intimidates me.

#60 - I'll probably feel more at home with Levin - although I do worry I won't give him quite the same level of adoration that Tolstoy did.

Thanks Porua. Tolstoy seems to be a storyteller, like Dickens, but with more depth and complexity. Plenty of time for him yet I guess!

He does seem fond of Levin, Dan. But I am too, so far.

Here's a quote which beautifully descibes a familiar experience:

{Kitty},... despite having prepared herself not to submit to her father's opinion, not to let him into her sanctuary, she felt that the divine image of Mme Stahl that she had carried in her soul for a whole month had vanished irretrievably, as the figure made by a flung-off dress vanishes once you see how the dress is lying. THere remained only a stubby-legged woman who stayed lying down because of her bad figure and tormented the docile Varenka for not tucking in her rug properly. And by no effort of imagination could she bring back the former Mme Stahl.

That has happened to me so many times. A dream destroyed entirely unknowingly by some well-meaning person who would never make their chance remark if they knew what they were doing.

No one should be intimidated by Anna Karenina. It's simply the greatest love story ever told, by probably the wisest story teller ever, as the quote above shows.

I'm so glad you are enjoying it, Choco. I love the pic! I'll try to put some more up for you when I get home from work.

Don't tell me you're not going to join the Dostoevsky group read in the salon in November? I will be very disappointed.

*Murr weeps into his mackerel flavoured hot chocolate*

Actually I was kinda scared of Dostoevsky but I have read two of his books The Brothers Karamozov and Crime and Punishment and enjoyed both of them very much. I have to admit that when I first started The Brothers Karamazov it was hard for me to keep all of the people straight because everyone had at least 2 to 3 aka's but once I got all that straight it was a great read.

Fortunately, you still have The Idiot to read.

LOL yes that is very true.

what do you mean? what's wrong with the idiot?

Ha-wo? Murrushka? It's dark in here... Renaskaya? You here? Ha-wo-o?!?

#68 What are they reading for Nov?

Karamazov. Do join us. It will be ...fun?

someone help that lady to a chair. I don't know what happened to the lights in here.

Ah yes that was an amazing book. When I finished it I was like okay I will have to re-read this one a couple more times.

Oooh! Eight new posts! Hullo everyone! I had an internetless week, I'm so glad you got along, um, all right(?) without me. Actually, things seem a bit tense, so I'll play you some Chopin to calm things down a bit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdmXc84a6iE

During my internetless week I also had a hiatus from reading anything serious, so I'm at much the same place as I was before. I had a little holiday :)

Murr, darling, did you find any of those pics? The one I found above seems to have been removed, so a replacement would be lovely. Have some more mackerel flavoured chocolate.

I don't know yet if I'll read Karamozov. I'm not good at group reads - much as I'd like to, they somehow make me not enjoy the book. :( But, you never know. I might. Please don't weep.

Welcome ALWINN. Grab a chair and a truffle. Is the all-caps status of your name mandatory?

Ha-wo Tani, my dear. Here I am. Have a mocha. The blinds are up and lights are on.

I missed you all :)

Ah, there you are, Renaskaya! So glad you had a holiday.

You know, I am awful at group reads. I have been trying to keep up with the Histories group and I am as inept in expressing my thoughts as ever. BUT, I plan to read The Brothers K during that time frame and will probably sit in the alcove whilst everyone else discusses Dostoevsky. That reminds me, Murrushka, I still owe you my thoughts on Tolstoy's Confession. They are of such a personal nature, that I don't think the threads are a good place to voice them. I will work on that in a private comment. How rude of them to take Anna away. (damn photo cops)

Oh and Murrushka? How about that Classical Music 101 thread you promised me and Renaskaya? Summertime Jazz should be just about over, eh?

Welcome home, dahling! Missed your face about the place.

Oh I know, I know it has been on my conscience for a long time. October ok? I am kind of busy lol.

Tani, I look forward to your comments on the confession. I saw The Last Station movie last weekend. if you haven't already seen it, I urge everyone to do so. Helen Mirren, as you would expect, is just fantastic, and Christopher Plummer gives the performance of a life time.

Ok. Karenina:

ooops lol
Choco, is that too big for your thread?

LOL! I like it, but I think that it will really really slow things down for others. ;-)

I have been wanting to rent The Last Station since the academy awards (I was clueless as to what it was about until then). I love both Mirrin and Plummer and look forward to their performances.

Good movie, if a bit overdramatic.

What a gorgeous picture! Thank you Murr!

If any person is having troubles downloading, please speak up and I'll get Murr to remove it. I'm tempted to download it, resize it and re-upload, but I believe that's illegal. Is it illegal?

Why would it be illegal?

Renashkaya, all Murrushka needs to do is add: width=600, after the link and before the greater than symbol, and it will be a perfect size for most of us. (I already have copied it for my own use on my desktop...shhh) She is quite beautiful.

ETA: Oh, dear me, I am adding too many h's around here. There, that's better, Renaskaya!

>Illegal? why do we care?

Well, Murr's got it from somewhere, and it's unreferenced. I guess our habit of putting photos in threads is technically against the law too. I do a bit of this sort of thing for work, and as I understand it, the law is that you're supposed to provide a link, rather than replicate the photo. But Tim's obviously never put his foot down about it, so, maybe it wouldn't matter...

Anyway, I do very much like the picture. Such beautiful arrogance. It's lovely.

I think that if all you do is specify the width, despite that it fits some screens better it won't be any less data and will take as long to load. Someone can resize it and repost it as ChocolateMuse suggested.

Robert

Thanks very much Murr, you can delete yours now.

Thanks for advice Robert.

Good show, Renaskaya! I agree, beautiful arrogance, indeed!

lol no you dont have to use all caps for my name. I guess when I signed up I had my caps lock on and I just never got around to change it.

I thought it was an acronym:

a lady who is not naive

no?

Beautiful picture! Thank you Murr for posting it and Rena for resizing it!

Murr, are you addressing alwinn there? Or the picture? Sometimes (often) you are way over my head.

On another note, I went to see Pirates of Penzance at the Sydney Opera House last night, and it was incredibly fun.

I am the very model of a modern Major-General...

Love the acronym, Murrushka. What say you, alwinn? Are you a lady who is not naive? ;-)

We all know that Karenina is not naive... Neurotic, but never naive.

Jealous of the very model of a modern Major-General!

A lady never tells. ;)

Good answer, alwinn... good answer!

hah!

And I love the pic.

In between bouts of Anna Karenina, I've been reading The Same River Twice by Ted Mooney. I'm sorry to say I ended up not loving it as much as I hoped and expected. My review is here: http://www.librarything.com/work/9339325/reviews/63841000.

CM - I loved your review. It's very entertaining by itself, and it even makes me want to read the book.

I laughed at your confession about the possibility of "blokey" writing. I've read so many books by male authors that I adore, and there are always lots of exceptions to any generalization, but I think there is a difference (for me) that goes up as the quality of writing goes down. but maybe it depends on the genres you're reading?

I enjoy reading your reviews, Sheila, as I did this last. I can't remark on whether I agree or not since I haven't read the book, but I can say (as a critic of critics, as well as other writers) that I wish you'd stop apologizing for your opinions. A writer sticks his or her head out, to be chopped off, perhaps--that comes with the territory; a painter, musician, playwright, actor, etc. A critic also; that comes with the territory too.

Great review, Rena! It's always annoying when books try to be "literary" and fail. My thought is that if you're going to write genre fiction (good, intelligent, entertaining genre fiction, that is) you should be unapologetic about it, and not try to make it something it isn't.

great review Choco. I'm really glad you said what you thought about it, honestly, and you backed up your assertions with great selected details from the book. You obviously thought about it a lot, and didn't just dismiss the book out of hand.

I agree with copy in 98: don't apologise.

I agree with lots of what you said in your review and am very interested indeed in what you said about 'blokey' lit. A subject for a much wider discussion I think.

>99 ncgraham: for what it's worth, I don't think TSRT is trying to be anything other than a genre novel. It's a genre novel with more intellectual depth than the usual fare, but it's still basically a plot-driven mystery with an emphasis on action.

All right. Thanks for the input, Murr.

I agree with Wilson and Murrushka... stop apologizing. Your review was eloquent and insightful. Bravo!

Your review made me laugh and want to read the book.

How boring things would be if everyone always agreed on matters literary.

True that!

Wonderful review of The Same River Twice. Thumbs! As a lover of mystery novels, I totally get what you're saying. Thank you for being so honest about your feelings.

Catching up on this thread while eating a Cadbury bar (an imported one, not an American one). Loved the review of the Mooney book. I liked that you just didn't trash the book as so many seem to do, but you explore why it didn't work for you. That made it soooo interesting! And agree with

However, I agree with copyedit & Murr above, please stop apologizing for your opinions (if you don't we'll have to send you to therapy!).

Maybe if we scold her enough for apologizing she'll apologize for it ;)

Another insightful and well-written review, Lorena. Thank you!

Dan, Nathan, Tani, RidgewayGirl, Porua, avaland, Amy, thanks so much for all the kind words!

>97 bonniebooks: - Bonnie, it might apply only to genre fiction? I'm not sure. I agree with Murr that 'blokey' lit could be discussed much further. This book made me realise that 'girly' and 'blokey' books can apply to far more than the obvious things like subject matter (clothes vs guns for e.g.). More to do with the perception of people and how they act and interact.

>98 copyedit52: & 100 - Piero and Murr, thank you both. I was mostly worried about this particular review because Mooney is a LibraryThing Author and will probably read my review. It seems kind of personal like that. And it didn't help that other salonistas have read it and reviewed it and thought highly of it - and salonista's opinions usually are worth taking into consideration! But I hereby stop apologising.

>106 absurdeist: Rique, there was no need to delete your message, I read it and wrote a reply to it, and when I hit 'submit', LT told me it was unexpectedly down - and then I had to go away for two days. So I saved my reply, and here's what I wrote, hopefully others can deduce what you wrote about from my reply: The daughter's name is Allegra (meaning 'very fast' in Italian...). I agree that her situation in that scene was dangerous - but that's where I point out in my review that it falls flat in the end. Sure, she's in a place of great potential danger - but Odile just goes down and pretty much gets her out. As I understand high stakes in a thriller genre, there needs to be an agonising choice involved - a lot relying on whatever action is taken. Here there was a dangerous situation involving some suspense, followed by a relatively easy escape. And then everyone lives happily ever after without ever referring to any of it again.

Again, thanks everyone, it's marvellous to have so much discussion on a review.

And, Amy pre-empted me, but I do apologise for apologising :)

Okay, I have been thinking over my apologies, which have sparked much unexpected discussion from many different quarters, and caused me to decide to explain them. This is an EXPLANATION. Not an apology. :)

I do not go around crawling and terrified - my apologies are meant as a recognition that other people will see differently from me and that I'm perfectly prepared to be proven wrong. And in this instance, I knew for certain that others disagreed, because I'd seen their glowing reviews. And these said reviews were written by intelligent, even erudite, people - professors and all that. So I assumed I'd probably missed something, and didn't want to bounce in with my comparitively short life and limited education and shout them down.

Also, as explained previously, I was sorry because of Ted Mooney probably reading it. I know it's an author's prerogative and all that, but am I not allowed to be sorry about dissing his hard work anyway?

On other news, Anna's life is rather a sordid mess at the moment, and Levin and Kitty have gone to Stepan Arkadyich's dinner, which seems to be rather momentous, and may keep Levin from thinking so much about death.

Here, after much agonising hard work, is my review of Peter Weissman's (otherwise known as copyedit52, or Piero, and several other names) memoir I Think, Therefore Who Am I?: http://www.librarything.com/work/6451161/reviews/63840966

Bravo! Loved the review.

I've not read the book (nor am I likely to), but this strikes me as a very good review, and a mature way to approach the material. Thumb.

Great thought-provoking review Sheila!

yes excellent!
your writing is an absolute joy to read: honest, thoughtful and beautifully expressed. Well done.

Mommy, I wanna write like Rena when I grow up....

aw, shucks. *blush*

You're all too kind. Thank you.

*agreement*

*hugs*

♥ to you all :)

I now find myself in the middle of four books at once, a phenomenon I generally try to avoid.

1. Still on Anna Karenina. I may write more in a spoiler-labelled post later.
2. The Woman in White has been staring at me from my shelf for so long, that I finally caved in and began it. I decided, dang it, that I want a break from reading serious stuff in a serious manner. I want a good strong dose of thoroughly unhealthy Victorian sensationalism. I'm loving it.
3. As part of the lead-up to the general WW1 group read in Le Salon starting 11 November, I managed to find a copy of Barbara Tuchman's book The Proud Tower at my local library. It was a rec from Murr, and is proving excellent so far.
4. I am also re-reading Wives and Daughters. It's numbered among my all-time favourites.

I see I really should get out some contemporary fiction soon, considering that list. :)

and notice Muse didn't apologize either in her review. I kept waiting for her to "go all Mooney" on Weissman, and then apologize for doing so (which I think would have been an appropriate apology; an apology I'd of applauded; because, let's face it, if you diss Les Miserables or The Same River Twice, you should apologize for it!) but "going all Mooney" never materialized in her review of I Think, Therefore Who Am I?

Are you chicken, Nathan? -- bawk, bawkbawkBAWK -- to read Peter Weissman's novel?

Can't wait till you help guide us through The Proud Tower, Muse.

A little, yes, especially after reading anna_in_pdx's review.

Yay for The Woman in White! I still need to write my review. And Wives and Daughters has been staring at me for years now.

>120 absurdeist: - Rique, the truth is, I just didn't dare apologise.

Plus, I liked it. I was glad and relieved that I liked it, but I truly did. So there wasn't really anything to apologise for - or to "go all Mooney" about. :)

And Nathan, Anna's review is as blatantly honest as the book itself. It's a good review, though it does tend to have the effect you mention. I don't think Piero meant it to be a light or easy read. Don't let Rique pressure you into reading it!

(And Rique, don't YOU start apologising either!)

Nathan, I cannot wait for your review on WW - but please don't put in any spoilers. That would be very tragic for me at this point in time.

The picture in #84 still applies, but also here is one for one of my other reads (no prizes for guessing which):

Positively feisty in 122. Good for you, Sheila. I meant to tell you how much I enjoyed your review, and why, but the French keyboard in this Internet cafe kept wiping out everything I wrote, three times in all. So that will have to wait until I return.

> 123, BOOO! Now I'll have to find another picture for *my* thread.

#119 I read The Woman in White years ago and don’t remember much about it. All I know is that I liked it better than The Moonstone. I’m glad you’re enjoying it, Rena.

I find different things to like or dislike, agree or disagree with, or scratch my head about, in the various reviews of my book. Of course I want everybody to think it's the best thing they ever read, but I'm almost as delighted when a reviewer discovers something I intended and no one else remarked upon, or when a reviewer discovers something I didn't intend, for which I will take credit anyway.

What Lorena remarked upon that I particularly liked was the distinction between the narrator of I Think, Therefore Who Am I?, who is more or less the present day me (I finished the book four years ago) and the character who is me in my novel/memoir. That young me had flashes of irony, mainly in dialogue (which of course is present tense), but he was younger--younger than young Lorena--and it's the older me who is the sardonic or chastened witness/narrator. Therein lies the gaga over-the-top drug story along sharing space with the implied comment on it and the drug (and drugged) era in which it took place.

But what I also liked about her review is the same thing I like about Lorena's other reviews, often of books I haven't read: her ingenuous open approach. She takes the text in as if it were a fresh thing entering her twenty-six-year old head (she makes reference to this often enough, which is where I think the unnecessary apologies come from), then calls it as it she sees it. It's why she's already an excellent critic, which is to say a critic of the best kind, without any axes to grind. When you finish reading her reviews, you feel good about them.

I agree. She has a youthful approach of course but she possesses a wisdom on the whole debarred from those her age. What she has is a sense of taste, in the best sense. There is something in her that responds to what E.M. Forster was talking about in his little book ASPECTS OF THE NOVEL. One of those who would see what Mrs. Brown is really up to. Not that I think H.G Wells, Arnold Bennett, or John Galsworthy misses that much about her for all their fact gathering and giving. In the end there is what I would call, something fresh, something we old farts come to appreciate, even though probably too late.
On the narrator issue, a similar thing happens in H.G. Wells', EXPERIMENT IN AUTOBIOGRAPHY, the older Wells confronting the younger one. My answer is that the thing is a looking back. There is precious little chance to put in to print, JUST what the young, let us say, Peter Weissmann, or Peter Anybody was REALLY all about. It is an effort to paint then what I was, though we cannot really paint then what we were. We can confabulate as Penelope Lively says that we do, or out and out lie like Frank Harris did. If I were to write a memoir, though the chances at this point are slim, I would write about those things that had an INFLUENCE on me. The Anxiety of influence as old Harold Bloom might say, or did, actually. The real Peter, in my case, I see as a, if I may use the word, vast, collection of sidekick Peters. The Idiot, the appreciative son, the ungrateful son, the sensitive, the insensitive, the whole array of Peters that attempt to prop up the 61 year old Peter you see, or in this case that you don't see, save a photobooth picture of a youthful, quite lost, and occasionally found Peter, today.

Oh man! I’m SO jealous, Rena! Such praise from such clever and well-read people! The best praise I got for my reviews was that my reviews are ‘NYT-worthy’ but that person was probably being polite after I had praised one of their reviews.

But seriously though, I love how you are so clear about your opinions. I learn a lot from your reviews. I often take cues about what to read and what not to read from them. Looking forward to more of your reviews in the future. :-)

Who you callin' well read, Porua? Certainly the other Peter, but I plead not guilty.

#130 O.k., o.k., I won’t accuse you of being well-read. Next time I’ll just call you an ignorant boor ;-) (the clever part is alright though, isn’t it?)!

I've been following the Muse ever since her Ghostwritten review, written, if I recall, last Sept. or Oct., about a year ago or so anyway. I just remember reading something there in that piece that made me think, "the young lady has postmodern salon material sensibilities, pursue her until she acquiesces and joins."

Henri: talent scout.

Well said Peter and Por, about Chocomuse's reviewing skills. the question of taste is very important. She has good taste and it shows, in her sensitivity to what she's reading and in how she reads it. The more great literature she reads, the better a reader she will be, quoth he.

regarding the disconnect between your younger self and your narrative self in the novel, and in HG Wells's autobio: is this not part and parcel of the bildungsroman?

I had to look that up, and yes, in fact it's what I wrote. The epigraph to that book, by the way, is:

"The one true vocation for man is to find out what is real."
--J. Krishnamurti

golly. a tall order, that. I still don't know what reality is.

Glad you are enjoying The Woman in White, Rena. Collins is da man! And I love the pic you posted.

Oh my sainted aunt. I go away for four days and come back to THIS. Gosh, guys. I don't know what to say, apart from a humble and inadequate thank you. Back when Rique 'talent-scouted' me, I was terrified of posting anything at all in the Salon. You were all so scary - so learned and articulate and well-read (yes, even you Piero). How nice to have one's ignorance and naivety called 'fresh' and 'tasteful'. Rather like a fruit salad. :)

LT, particularly Le Salon and Club Read, have been an epoch in my life. Thanks to you guys - all of you - I've possibly learned more in the last year than in my whole university degree.

And Porius, a thousand welcomes. I didn't know you lurked here. I hope you pop up again some time.

MWA to you all ♥

It's always good to hear that someone has someplace to go to for four days. This nerd world has its drawbacks.

Oh yes, Piero of Montreal travelling fame. Let me tell you, the places I went to were all within a 100km radius of my house, and you may rest assured that everyone I saw spoke something similar to my native language. :)

That ain't traveling at all, Sheila. Alienation is a necessary component of a worthwhile vacation; or vacances, as they say on the Boulevard St. Denis.

Well, I didn't say I 'travelled', did I. I said I was away. Some of it was duty rather than pleasure anyway - in fact, writing about it now is rather depressing, when compared to what you evidently thought I meant. Sorry to disappoint you, though I'm relieved that I still qualify as a nerd, at least.

I'll leave you to your snooty vacances on the Boulevard St. Denis, Piero Blancouomo. I'll just have make the best of putting my feet up on the back verandah with a cork hat and a citronella candle.

I chanced to look to see if You Tube has The Woman in White movie, just out of curiosity and with no intention of watching it. If you haven't read the book, do not do what I did. The summary in the info thing gives away the whole plot in the first sentence! I was very annoyed. Even so, I'm enjoying the book extremely, and sat up reading it too late last night thinking 'just one little bit more...'

Nathan, I'm sorry I stole your pic, but I think your Gothick Castle is beautifully atmospheric just as it is.

Porua, your reviews are always high quality - clear, personal and you always summarise the book perfectly. Don't put yourself down, my friend - not in this cafe anyway!

If you're talking about the 1948 version of The Woman in White, I highly recommend watching it after you finish the novel. That particular movie version is great.

Ooh, thanks. This one was in colour. I didn't find out any more about it - I read that first sentence, closed my eyes and groped for the close window X. But I shall keep your suggestion in mind and look out for it :)

The version I've seen was done by Masterpiece Theater, and I highly UNrecommend it. The screenplay is utterly lackluster, the characters flat, and they made Count Fosco skinny (!). Collins specifically set out to create a corpulent villain because of the prevailing stereotype of the bone-thin bad guy. And they changed the mystery.

I didn't know there was a version done in 1948. I'll have to check that out, thanks!

The version YouTube has is the recent Masterpiece Theater version, but I don't see any *terrible* spoilers in the info box. Marion DOES give away pretty much the entire plot in her first speech (why?) but the plot is so different in that version that it scarcely matters.

The 1940s version has pretty much the best Count and Countess Fosco I can conceive of—Sydney Greenstreet and Agnes Moorehead—but it looks as though they changed the nature of "the Secret" once again in there (although to be fair, this was do to censoring, and thus is more forgivable than the departures of the '98 version). But this adaptation seems to be very hard to find, as is the 80s miniseries here in America, which seems to be the only true-to-the-book version out there. It's a sad indictment of our country that, when a version of The Woman in White was due on DVD, the Brits got the 80s miniseries, and we the 98 telefilm. *le sigh*

Apparently the miniseries is available as a torrent online, but I tried to download it and failed.

P.S. I was kidding, Muse. :P I had been planning to post a photo with each Gothick review I posted, but I hadn't made a selection for TWiW yet, and I've now found another.

#143 Thanks, Rena! Yeah my reviews are mostly about how I feel. I don’t know whether being so personal about what I read and how it makes me feel is a good thing. Should I be more objective, I wonder.

#146 Count Fosco skinny?!! That’s outrageous to say the least. I’ve always pictured him a certain way and they just go ahead and meddle with that. Exactly the reason I don’t watch that many movie adaptations of books.

148 - Stick with your feelings, for me its more interesting than dry-as-dust reviewing. What does the book mean to YOU. And all that that implies. Your reviews are entertaining and always worth the time invested. More objective? How can you manage that I'd like to know?

#149 When I read a book I become a part of it somehow. It’s like I go into the book I’m reading. So, when I finish reading and start writing the review all my feelings sort of pour out of me. I can’t keep my distance from the narrative, so to speak. I’ve heard people say things like ‘Gabriel Betteredge is NOT a real person, you know’ or ‘Relax, that love story between that pseudo-intellectual time travelling dude and that red-headed artsy gal isn’t real’. Some may say I take (fictional) things way to seriously. But This is who I am and I don’t think I’ll ever change.

Porua - Good. Don't change. :) I think a big part of all this praise coming to me (still can't get over that) is because my reviews are personal. So it works. Don't change it!

Nathan, I will PM you The Secret from the info box. Maybe it's not so bad after all; remember I haven't finished the book yet.

Porius, so glad you found us here again. Now the problem will be remembering who is Porius and who is Porua. Easy for me because I know you both, but cafe visitors be warned, they are two very different people :)

>142 ChocolateMuse:. Well, I didn't say I "traveled," did I? I said I was away. (Americanized out of editorial habit.)

When I was in Nova Scotia I discovered that the local people had an expression for those among them who hadn't resided there for a long while: they were "from away." Seems you had to live there at least thirty years before you were no longer "from away." Also, if you were, say, in Lunenberg, and went to Halifax, which is the biggest city in N.S., you were said to have "gone away." Because it was so far, you see. Maybe as much as sixty miles, or a hundred kiometers.

Dostoevsky on Anna Karenina

➢ Anna Karenina is perfection as a work of art…to which nothing in the European literature of this era can compare. The novel’s idea also contains something of ours, something truly our own, that very things which constitutes our distinctness from the European world.
➢ Anna Karenina is a monumental psychological elaboration of the human soul with awesome depth and force and with a realism of artistic portrayal unprecedented among us

Oh goodness. I wish I was reading it with Dostoevsky's brain.

So I've finished The Woman in White and also Wives and Daughters. No reviews forthcoming on either - the latter because I've reviewed it before on LT, and the former because, well, what can I say about it other than it was fantastic and I loved it? Any discussion about it would spoil the plot, and it's the kind of book that should never allow spoilers.

Going slow on AK, but still enjoying it.

I still need to write my WiW review. I think I can do it without spoiling the plot. :P Glad you loved it.

Hello!

I wrote a review! http://www.librarything.com/work/2340/reviews/63362155

Anna Karenina has taken me SO long to read, I'd almost forgotten how to write a review. I've missed this cafe a great deal, but it seemed pointless to post in here when I still hadn't finished anything worth discussing. Anyway, for the final few days of 2010, I am back. :)

Hi, Rena! Welcome back!

Also, perhaps more interesting, I got inspired by Mac's 2011 reading list on his blog, so I began my own: http://www.librarything.com/catalog/ChocolateMuse/wouldliketoreadin2011

Hi Porua :)

That's a nice, short list, Rena. Mine always tend to be impossibly long.

And for having almost forgotten how to write reviews, that was a great one. :P

indeed. An excellent review as always. You really put your finger on what T was trying to do, choco.

there's a feeling there, faintly moral, of how characters shape their own destiny with the principles they live by.

T believed that character was destiny, so bingo!

and of course you will read it again. try it again in 10 years.

aw, really? And here I was thinking I'd probably missed the point! You can be a very comforting cat sometimes, Murr.

And Nathan, that list is way TOO short. I don't know why it is that it's not quadruple its length; anyway, no doubt I will add to it over the next few weeks at least. Are you going to do one again this year? (hint hint)

I've sort of been switching things over to a in-works "next year" list for some time; it's already 80 books long! But I'm sure as the New Year looms closer I'll play around with it and get it looking something like it should.

I just went and checked your list out, Nathan, it looks fantastic - and somehow 80 books doesn't look like much in a list like that. I see you have Bel Canto on there - I wonder if I'd love it as much if I read it now? I hope you get to Poisonwood Bible as well. I was very impressed by the first half, when I read it, but not the second half so much. Would like to see what you think. And I Capture the Castle is funny and sweet - a perfect comfort read imo. And you have more Heyer! :-)

Yay for TBR lists! I probably should have put this on your thread, sorry. I'm just excited about having my cafe back.

If any of my other faithful patrons have a TBR 2011 list, do tell me! I want to spy stealthily upon your lists.

Of course I have more Heyer! I've got to slowly make my way through all the ones I bought, oy. And I simply must finish Bel Canto; my grandmother loaned it to me forever ago and is probably wondering where it is. 80 books seems like a lot to me—I'll probably make around 60 this year.

I'm going to turn my tbr's (now numbering 52, but will go up when I add Christmas gifts and another visit to Powell's) into a 11-in-11 challenge for next year. I think I have some great books to look forward to reading. It's near the top of my current thread if you're interested. Next year I want to see if I can get at least one person to read a book at the same time I am.

We don't seem to have any overlaps, Bonnie, though I was vaguely thinking of reading The Lacuna. Somehow I'm not excited about it though, so I didn't add it to my list.

I see you have Cloud Atlas there though, which I liked very much. And I just nominated The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle as my best read from an author new to me in 2010 in the Salon Reading Oscars. And Nathan has I Capture the Castle on his list...

'I capture the castle' is fabulous. the first sentence alone is enough to make you fall in love with it.

Yes, I'm reading it right now, and it's lovely so far. One of my favorite bits comes when Cassandra is talking about Rose, and comments, "I am quite as discontented as her, only I don't seem to feel it so much"—or something of that sort. I love Cassandra already!

Calling everyone who visits here: what are your thoughts on me putting my 2011 thread into Le Salon? It seems to be The Thing these days. But if doing so means I lose my non-Salon friends, then I ain't doing it.

What say you, Porua? Bonnie? Amy? Nathan? Dan? Other loved ones? Would you still come and see me in the Salon? As often as you have here in 2010?

And what say the salonistas about me doing this? I am no Porius, or Murr. You know by now that my thread won't be as erudite as theirs, and will hopefully be chatty and probably occasionally gauche.

Hmm. I'm wavering. Could go either way. Help?

PM me if you like, or post here. Please?

I visit you here, Sheila. It's true that I have to take the subway and two buses, and then walk several blocks. But it is doable. Sure and begorrah, your loyal friends can do it too, in the opposite direction.

Choc - I have every intention of visiting wherever your thread is.

Me too. Great books, great banter, great people, and great chocolate. Who could refuse?

Never heard of it-- guess it's too elite for me, but if it's in LT, I'll follow you, no problem. I just star everyone and keep following them from thread to thread. It really doesn't matter where your home address is.

I will star and follow your thread wherever you put it. :) Just provide linkage.

Thank you all!

Here is the link to my new thread: http://www.librarything.com/topic/107172

I hope very much that you will all join me there.