Guy Kay - where to start and other discussion

Which of Guy Gavriel Kay's books would be the best with which to start? And what else have you got to say about any of his books?

Needless to say ;-) I've got a few thoughts of my own:

1. Tigana is one of my very favorite single-volume fantasies. It's long, and a few sections are a bit grim, but overall it's wonderful. It has more magical elements than most of the later books, which are more historical novels with slight fantastic elements. Someone mentioned revenge as the primary theme, but I don't agree and would welcome more comments on that.

2. The Fionavar Tapestry is somewhat derivative but a wonderful read. Five people from our world accept an invitation to Fionavar, the first of all worlds. Each brings some luggage and contributes to the unfolding of the story. Kay blends LOTR with Arthurian elements and the visitors and creates something more than just imitation. Most of the later fantasies refer in some oblique way to Fionavar.

3. A Song for Arbonne, The Lions of Al-Rassan, Sailing to Sarantium, Lord of Emperors, and The Last Light of the Sun are all set in a common medieval Europe, with each adding its own small magical element. Lions is IMHO his best-written book. Last Light is not especially good IMHO. The two Sarantine books suffer from an awful lot of philosophizing but are very well told and have appealing characters. Arbonne is a pretty easy read, kinda motr on quality, and seems like a candidate to read first.

4. Ysabel is different from all the others and I'm not crazy about it, although I don't hate it the way some folks seem to.

5. Under Heaven is sort of a return to the style of the European books, although it's set in China. Another one set in a later period in China is due this year.

Did I leave any out, other than the poetry?

Which do you recommend as the first to read? One answer is whichever you can find ;-) Other than reading the two Sarantine books or the Fionavar trilogy in order, I don't see any need to follow any particular path.

Which are your favorites? Why? What do you see as Kay's strengths and weaknesses? Please contribute any other thoughts!

My first GGK was Lions of al-Rassan, the only one of his in the local library. I was enchanted and am hooked. Later I bought Sailing to Sarantium with high expectations, and was not disappointed. (Recently re-read it, and loved it all over again.)

But if you could only afford one for the next purchase, which would it be? Tigana? Under Heaven? Lord of Emperors? Something totally different?

The first of his I read was the Fionavar Tapestry. Loved it. HATED Tigana. I have a couple more of his books but haven't worked up the nerve to read them after Tigana.

My first entry into GGK's works was A Song For Arbonne followed by Tigana which I then followed up with The Fionavar Tapestry so I probably had quite an odd way into GGK's work. As I've said elsewhere (and will probably continue to say forever and a day) Tigana is my favourite book, ever.

>3 majkia: It's funny, because I am the opposite way around... not that I hated the Fionavar Tapestry but I enjoyed Tigana waaaay more.

I think reading Tigana, A Song for Arbonne and The Lions of Al-Rassan in publishing order is a great way to expose how Kay evolved certain themes over the course of several books, even though I read Tigana first, then Lions, and then Arbonne. I also think those are, together with The Sarantine Mosaic, his best, with Lions in an undisputed top position.

The Fionavar Tapestry is a bit odd compared to those, more like an academic exercise than actual literature, and I had complaints about several things after I had read it (them, really, seeing as it is a trilogy). Ysabel is a late continuation of that story and I really didn't like it that much.

Several elements from Fionavar gets used in his later books, though, even if the overall storytelling gets better as he becomes a master of his own craft.

Last Light of the Sun is the one that I like the least - it was a disappointment, frankly, filled with supernatural beings and weird plot.

Under Heaven is, in my mind, a return to form; a welcome surprise, even if it isn't as good as Lions. And I am looking forward to River of Stars with some trepidation. Either it will be good, or it will be a let down.

I think his main weakness is that he's so elaborate, so keen on ideas and concepts and stylistic form that he sometimes lets them take command over the story. Either you like it or you think it is too purple - he's balancing a fine line, and I tink that he pulls it off most of the time. But not always.

Each story containes one or more gruesome or horrible event, often depicted in detail, and almost always the victim is a woman. Women consequently gets molested, violated, sometimes to death. This is one of the things that troubles me with his tales.
True, they are, except parts of Fionavar, and Ysabel, set in past times; in quasi-medieval times, or in antiquity. Women weren't treated well back then, as a rule - and in some places still aren't - but it jars just the same.

However, my biggest problem is with his use of the supernatural, and when he, in my opinion, overuses it as a plot device or as embellishment - it just gets too much for me.

That said he is one of my very few "must buy" authors, and Lions is one of my favourite books ever.

I align my recommendation on which Kay title to start to the individual reader.

If they like traditional myth, and if they are younger - Fionavar Tapestry is a good starting point. It is not derivative of modern writers - Kay went back to the roots of very old legends (several cultures' worth) that other writers have also used. He blended his story into a 'tapestry' of those older myths, and threw in a few startling twists. They were his first books, and I love them - his career shifted after this trilogy was done.

For readers who prefer a faster plot and a simpler style, and prefer a more modern setting/come from urban fantasy - I recommend Ysabel - though it ties back to Fionavar, it's a loose tie, and likely this book stands well on its own.

For readers who like to plunge into a more layered, adult perspective, I always point them to Lions of Al-Rassan -- not Tigana - while those books rise to the top as reader favorites, the events in Tigana lean harder on the darker side of human nature - and for some readers, this is a 'risky' love or hate it sort of book. Most readers who love Tigana also love Lions, but there are enough instances where it goes the other way, I start with the safer bet.

Under Heaven would be another decent shot to try as a first, but the ending of that one was not nearly as powerfully played out, (which is very likely as Kay intended, he is a master at subtle ambiguity).

If they love either or both of these books, it's a pretty good bet they will enjoy the rest of the list, in any order, except do read Sailing to Sarantium with its sequel.

I don't tell readers to start with Last Light of the Sun - that one reads best (I think) if you already love Kay and are familiar with his style of storytelling.

I very strongly disliked the Fionavar trilogy, the narrative device of sending a group of average present-day guys and gals to the fantasy world / the past is one I almost always hate, and way too many exact or close parallels in groups, characters and scenes to LotR for my taste.

Decided some years later to give him another try and I'm glad I did as Tigana is among my favorites still.

Lions of Al-Rassan didn't really wow me, I guess the general unfolding of events that was quite close to that of the RL Reconquista made for few surprises overall, and I'm not a big fan of romances and love triangles as main or major plot.

Loved Sailing to Sarantium / Lord of Emperors.

Haven't read any of the others yet.

#7 - To me the Reconquista theme was part of what made the story appeal to me - I have a thing for moorish culture and its influence on modern Europe, and actually having visited some of the real life places he has used as models added texture as I could draw on my memories of smell, ambience, and so on.

When he is at his best he skillfully manages to evoke the atmosphere of a place, the texture of being. IMHO.

Thanks for the thread Jim. I have never read Kay before and have been curious as to where to start.

While I have enjoyed dark fantasy (The Coldfire Trilogy by C.S. Friedman is a favorite of mine), having read the love it/hate it nature of Tigana and that it tends towards the grim side of human nature I thought it wasn't best to start here. I would hate to end up in the "hate it" category and then miss out on other great works because my introduction to Kay was his only novel of this sort.

Based on descriptions here and from other threads I am currently leaning towards Lions of Al-Rassan. It is a stand alone novel right? Is it a good indicator of his writing style? I do like complex multi-faceted plots, layered characters and a good dose of world building. I also haven't ready any historical fantasy in quite a while.

Yes, Narilka, Lions is a stand-alone. The only ones that aren't are the two Sarantine books (Sailing, Emperors) and the three Fionavar books.

#2 If you liked Sarantium and want to know how it all turned out, Lord of Emperors is your ticket, as it continues the story. If you weren't crazy about it, I like Tigana better than Under Heaven, but YMMV.

I have to agree about Tigana - it is one my favourites books as well, with Dianora being one my favourite characters - something about her is very human with all of her flaws, faults and failings, but with a capity for love and grief.

Then The Lions of Al-Rassan, with Song for Arbonne a very close third.

Followed by The Sarantine Mosaic series (Sailing to Sarantium and Lord of Emperors) - 10 years ago I got to see the amazing mosaics in Ravenna that I assume inspired this book. They are incredible - just go (and think of Crispin when you are there)

I like the Fionavar Tapestry, I agree it is somewhat derivative (but I also think it is understandable given Kay was working with the Tolkein estate at the time, and they are his first novels) I didn't like Ysabel the first time I read it, but have liked it more with subsequent re-reads - I do like that it in part answers the question of what happened when some of them returned home (which is a question i have often asked myself). These two are probably equal, and I am not too sure how Ysabel would read as a stand alone.

Then Under Heaven and finally The Last Light of the Sun are probably my least favourites of all of Kay's work. There are moments when I find them too derivative of himself.... hard to describe, he too often talks about the future of a minor character and how they would reflect on the situation

However Kay remains a favourite author (in case you haven't guessed) and I am adding River of Stars to my wishlist!

Jim - if Tigana is one of your favorite single-volume fantasies what are some of the others?

#11 off the top of my head: Castleview, The Beginning Place, The Worm Ouroboros, Watership Down. I recently enjoyed The Night Circus quite a bit; not sure if I'd call it a favorite. How about yours? And everyone else's?

I think one of Kay's great strengths is his characters. Agree? Who are some of your favorites? For me it's Diarmuid, Matt Soren, Ammar, Jehane, Baerd, Alixana, but also some of the secondary characters such as Wei Song, Rovigo, Ariane, Miranda.

#10 many thanks, Jim. Lord of Emperors rises to the top of the wishlist.

I agree with SpicyCat, one of his weaknesses is that he sometimes is too derivative of himself.

Not that I mind, in general, but some of his characters are very much kin to each other. It has been some time since I read some of these books but reading first Tigana, then Lions, and lastly Arbonne, upon which I read Fionavar, Diarmuid felt very much like an embryonic Ammar/Baerd/Bertran (I think - if I'm wrong in actual name I think many of you will be able to correct me).

They climb in through windows, have a way with the ladies... being somewhat flamboyant while acting according to some inner moral compass... and some of them are better written than others.

Kay's works are some of the very few works in the fantasy genre that I thoroughly enjoy, and I have a special dislike towards urban fantasy and vampire lit. So I'm not a good guide to the fantasy domain.

I started reading Kay with Fionavar, back when they were first published. Loved them, and was hooked. I have to say that it has been so long since I read some of them that my memory is fuzzy, but the Sarantine Mosaic books and Under Heaven are the ones that stand out most in my mind right now. I wish I had time to do a re-read of all the others, though.

I also adore the original Martin Springett covers for the Fionavar books. I have prints of the three, hung as a vertical tryptych.

Oh, mine have the covers that Janny & Don did - I like those, they match the story, in a good way; the Springett ones I haven't seen.

Busifer, thanks for your comment in #5 about the gruesome things generally happening to women. I took this as reflecting on the perpetrators: Galbert, for example, is a much worse character because of his hatred of women, and the atrocities done at his instigation should reflect that, especially since it's a major theme of the book. So in a narrative sense I don't have a big problem with women frequently being targeted in these books, but in a deeper sense I share your discomfort, and I appreciate your raising this issue. I hadn't thought about it consciously before, but as soon as I read your post, it hit me that you were right. Even though the narrative sometimes require such a thing (where else would we get Darien?), there is still a cost to having them in the stories.

These atrocities are always motivated by narrative, and therefore motivated, just as you say.

Still, sometimes it can be a bit much to stomach, and I can see how some people are put off by it.

(Writing on a small keyboard, thus the brevity.)

GGK is my absolute favourite author. He writes with such grace, with dignity and his characters are more balanced than most I have encountered in my reading - they have flaws. I love flawed characters. They're human. I have read several of his books mulitiple times, and his plotting and story telling style are the lead inspirations for my own novel.

Jim53: Tigana is almost my bible of novels. I love the dark, and the tragedy. I think it is too blunt an analysis to say that Tigana is about revenge; it's about exile, and memory. About bringing memory into the land of the living. The battle of the Night Walkers is symbolic for the cost of the loss of identity, which is one of the key themes in the novel. Brandin's act of destruction is not merely an act of revenge, but a blight upon the land and on its people. The act of restoration isn't a true act of revenge, though revenge may play a part, but more a gift - righting a great wrong. Alessan carries his burden as a great weight, and revenge is not his higher motive.

Lions of Al-Rassan is easily my next favourite, alongside A Song for Arbonne and the Sarantine Mosaic.

Then we have Ysabel and Fionavar, which are complete mysteries to me. I've always felt as if it were another author who wrote them.

I enjoyed his latest novel Under Heaven but not as much as the others. We'll see what his latest produces.

In terms of the derivation, yes, there really is a pattern to his character creation. The mysterious, beautiful, sexually-manipulative female (Alienor, Styliane); the multi-talented hero (Alessan: musician, prince, warrior. Ammar: poet, warrior, spy. Bertran: poet, warrior, duke); the capable, beautiful, quietly-suffering woman (Alixana, Dianora, Catriona, Rosala) etc. These characters work, though, and are sufficiently flawed enough to resonate.

The main flaws I perceive with his characters: the women are often too perfect in looks. And characters are often too clever, too perceptive.

I think starting with Lions of Al-Rassan and Tigana is the best option, simply because those two books cut to the heart of GGK as an author.

Jim - that is a hard one. Tigana is my favourite GKK, I would then go for a Charles De Lint, Greenmantle maybe, though I have a weakness for his short stories. Enders Game, I know it is part of a series (well two two series now), but it does stand alone. Blind Assassin I think of Margaret Atwood's work.

I was going to also add Elantris by Brandon Sanderson, but having just read The Emperor's Soul I might have to recommend that instead, I am going have to mull over that one.

Interestingly my first copy of Lord of the Rings was one book, so it jumps to mind as a 'single volume', monstrous though it is.

If I were to start someone on GGK, I would start them on the Fionavar tapestry, unless they were too sophisticated for it or dislike traditional fantasy. In that case, I would recommend The Sarantine Mosaic.

If I needed to recommend something similar, I'd recommend Patricia McKillip.

I am a massive fan of GGK and I would recommend reading them in the order they were written (probably cos that's the way I read them). He started as a fantasy writer but now there is very little fantasy in his work.
My favourites are still Fionavar Tapestry and Tigana, but I am a fantasy reader.
I was slightly disappointed in Under Heaven in that I didn't feel for the characters as I normally do. One thing GGK can always do is make me cry at some point for a character (main or minor) but I felt detached from the characters in Under Heaven. I enjoyed it but less than normal.
I am still looking forward to River of Stars though and hope he can pull my emotions again!

The Fionavar books are really my all-time favorites, I absolutely love them, although it's been a while since I re-read them the last time. I didn't think it was more derivative than other epic fantasy books, and I loved the intricacy of the story, the beauty of the world, the high drama in style, and the characters.
Most hated by the Dark, for their name was Light.
Still love that line.

I also read Tigana, but never re-read it. That says enough in itself I guess. I believe I did like it, but not as much as Fionavar. I haven't read any of his other works, so this thread is really interesting to me. It's definitely reviving my interest in GGK!