The Snopes Trilogy, Volume II, The Town
ConversazioniClub Read 2023
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2dianelouise100
Thanks for setting this up, Deborah.
5dianelouise100
Hoping to begin in a few days, after finishing current read. And also looking forward to it.
6dianelouise100
I’ve read the first 6 chapters and am finding a lot to like about this book. The changing narrators are great, with three distinct voices now to tell us the story. Gavin Stevens seems to be taking the narrative voice of the 3rd person narrator from The Hamlet, while simultaneously being up to his neck in the plot. It’s good to have Ratliff back and I’m enjoying the youthful perspective of Charles (soon to be “Chick”) Malleson. And we are certainly seeing more of Flem and Eula, I think we’ll feel we know more about these two and their relationship by the end of the novel. Gavin Stevens and Ratliff have formalized the need for keeping an eye on the Snopeses and have accepted their role as Snopes watchers, since only the two of them among all the citizens of Jefferson seem to realize the existence of such a need.
7dianelouise100
I’ve finished The Town, which I enjoyed much more than The Hamlet. The plot was more engaging for me throughout, and we do indeed learn a great deal more about Eula and Flem.
8dchaikin
I’m only a hundred pages in. But i’ll make more progress this weekend. I’m more intrigued than entranced, so far.
9dianelouise100
I’ll look forward to hearing what intrigues you.
10SassyLassy
Just finished this earlier today.
There seemed to be far fewer flights of rhetorical fancy here, and much more narration. I liked the way the story was told from the perspective of different characters
Without spoilers, wondering how Eula came to know some of Ratliff's personal history, when he appears as somewhat of an enigma to everyone else.
I also like the way Faulkner set up the next novel in the series at the end of this one. Looking forward to seeing how Charles and Gavin each mature/age, and finding out more about Ratliff.
Definitely looking forward to The Mansion.
There seemed to be far fewer flights of rhetorical fancy here, and much more narration. I liked the way the story was told from the perspective of different characters
Without spoilers, wondering how Eula came to know some of Ratliff's personal history, when he appears as somewhat of an enigma to everyone else.
I also like the way Faulkner set up the next novel in the series at the end of this one. Looking forward to seeing how Charles and Gavin each mature/age, and finding out more about Ratliff.
Definitely looking forward to The Mansion.
11japaul22
I didn’t get to this in July but the comments are motivating me to get to it in August. I’ll try!
12arubabookwoman
I'm about 1/2 way through. July got away from me. We are moving 8/3, and for the last 1 1/2-2 weeks, packing and organizing has been taking up most of my time. It's possible I will finish before 8-1, but I will finish no later than the end of the first week of August (I hope) and post then. In the meantime, I am starting the thread for volume III, The Mansion.
13dianelouise100
>10 SassyLassy: I was really pleased to get more insight into Flem and Eula, much stronger characterization of all, I thought. It’s been awhile since I finished, wondering what you’re finding enigmatic about Ratliff. I may have to browse through this again before writing a review.
14SassyLassy
>13 dianelouise100: re Ratliff: I think Faulkner himself portrays Ratliff as an enigma, constantly using adjectives like "bland" when describing his mien, as he (Ratliff) skilfully lulls those around him into a probably false sense of security while they speak of not only their own affairs, but those of others. Gavin alludes to this toward the end of The Town, when he mentions Ratliff sitting with all those women, near and far, as he peddles his sewing machines.
Ratliff is careful whom he shares his incidental knowledge with, but Gavin and Charles, and especially the reader, all know that Ratliff holds the key to all kinds of things.
It just occurred to me that maybe I am completely wrong and The Mansion will explode my theories to pieces, but for now I'm going with them!
Ratliff is careful whom he shares his incidental knowledge with, but Gavin and Charles, and especially the reader, all know that Ratliff holds the key to all kinds of things.
It just occurred to me that maybe I am completely wrong and The Mansion will explode my theories to pieces, but for now I'm going with them!
15dianelouise100
>14 SassyLassy: Thanks, Sassy. Sometimes people really have to spell it out for me, and I appreciate you taking the time to do so. I agree with all your comments. And hoping this question is not much of a spoiler, was it Eula who discloses Ratliff’s first name? I remember the info, but not the context.
I’m also looking forward to The Mansion, finding out where Flem and his relatives go from here, and how well the “watchers” succeed at containing them.
I’m also looking forward to The Mansion, finding out where Flem and his relatives go from here, and how well the “watchers” succeed at containing them.
16dianelouise100
As the month is past, is it ok now to discuss anything in the whole book on this thread? I think this book deserves more conversation than The Hamlet did, but don’t want to spoil for others who’ll be reading it. Should we start a new thread for discussion ranging over the whole book?
17japaul22
I haven't read it yet, but I'm fine with discussion starting on this thread. I'll just avoid reading the discussion until I get around to reading the book.
18dianelouise100
Sounds sensible to me, thanks, Jennifer.
19dianelouise100
(Whole book)
Overall I admired Gavin Stevens a great deal, but did not know quite what to make of his relationship with Linda, from its start where he’s trying to “form her mind.” I wonder about others’ thoughts. I feel pretty sure this is setting up something for next book, but I’m not all that comfortable with it now.
Also curious about what others think of Flem’s developing civic mindedness. His way of ridding himself and the town of undesirable Snopes, and others, like Eula and Manfred, as well.
IMO Flem is more evil than before, more despicable in achieving his one selfish goal of becoming president of the bank opened originally by Colonel John Sartoris way back after the end of the Civil War.
I came to like Eula’s character more and more as the novel progressed. She seemed to become more sensible and focussed as she matured over this 20 year period. But I don’t know whether or not to consider her defeated by Flem—that is, I really don’t know how to respond to her suicide. I know the reasons ascribed to her, but I keep thinking about it. I don’t know what else would have provided a better ending for this particular story, Faulkner gives us a really well constructed plot this time. But I find that Eula remains on my mind, even several weeks after finishing the novel…such a waste./
Also curious about what others think of Flem’s developing civic mindedness. His way of ridding himself and the town of undesirable Snopes, and others, like Eula and Manfred, as well.
IMO Flem is more evil than before, more despicable in achieving his one selfish goal of becoming president of the bank opened originally by Colonel John Sartoris way back after the end of the Civil War.
I came to like Eula’s character more and more as the novel progressed. She seemed to become more sensible and focussed as she matured over this 20 year period. But I don’t know whether or not to consider her defeated by Flem—that is, I really don’t know how to respond to her suicide. I know the reasons ascribed to her, but I keep thinking about it. I don’t know what else would have provided a better ending for this particular story, Faulkner gives us a really well constructed plot this time. But I find that Eula remains on my mind, even several weeks after finishing the novel…such a waste./
20SassyLassy
>15 dianelouise100: It was Eula who revealed Ratliff's name and a bit of his background, when she came to visit Gavin in his office.
21dianelouise100
I thought so from your comment. Thanks! I’ll find that part and reread.
22dianelouise100
I finally found info on how to make a spoiler, and will try to use when needed. Assuming I can find the page next time I need it.
23dchaikin
I stalled out on this. Just today got halfway through. I'll keep going, but obviously I will be late with The Mansion. So far I'm only a little into it. It's ok. I want more Ratcliff, but he's elusive and quiet.
24dchaikin
Ok, i stumbled through to the finish. Hmm. I feel a little exhausted by it. Characters live, and there was a storyline. But the telling was difficult, I thought, and just ok enough to keep me. I never got into it.
>19 dianelouise100:
It's not entirely clear to me how this all fell out. Did Linda inherit anything?
I had trouble understanding these characters. I never did like Gavin. Why was he obsessed with Eula, and yet too proud to do anything except be obsessed? Very strange to me. And his actions with Linda were creepy, regardless of Eula's and Linda's own takes. And I wonder about his feelings with his sister. Anyway, he's all very empty-suit to me.
Flem was too predictable to me to be evil. I didn't realize he was impotent, but it explains a lot. He's just a vain man accumulating for nothing. But everyone knew that. Everyone he hurt knew that. Only Eula really came in blind. Well, and the small people he cheated or pressed (sometimes using race)
Eula becomes normal. She's not that exciting once you realize she had no real partner, and therefore found a single man to fill in as one. I thought she should be tougher on Flem. But maybe because of his impotence she had no power on him. She becomes merely a victim.
I'm amused Charlie was called Chic. My grandfather, a Chaikin, was also called Chic, in South Florida, as was his brother, who lived in Boston. Both had the same nickname and both their descendants remember them as Chic.
>19 dianelouise100:
It's not entirely clear to me how this all fell out. Did Linda inherit anything?
I had trouble understanding these characters. I never did like Gavin. Why was he obsessed with Eula, and yet too proud to do anything except be obsessed? Very strange to me. And his actions with Linda were creepy, regardless of Eula's and Linda's own takes. And I wonder about his feelings with his sister. Anyway, he's all very empty-suit to me.
Flem was too predictable to me to be evil. I didn't realize he was impotent, but it explains a lot. He's just a vain man accumulating for nothing. But everyone knew that. Everyone he hurt knew that. Only Eula really came in blind. Well, and the small people he cheated or pressed (sometimes using race)
Eula becomes normal. She's not that exciting once you realize she had no real partner, and therefore found a single man to fill in as one. I thought she should be tougher on Flem. But maybe because of his impotence she had no power on him. She becomes merely a victim.
I'm amused Charlie was called Chic. My grandfather, a Chaikin, was also called Chic, in South Florida, as was his brother, who lived in Boston. Both had the same nickname and both their descendants remember them as Chic.
25dianelouise100
>24 dchaikin: Dan, I hope these at best mediocre novels won’t discourage you from reading the best of his novels.
I probably liked Gavin more than you did, he and Ratliff embody the small town busybodiness that allows them to be narrators of the story. Gavin is the stereotypical cultured Southern Gentleman, classically educated, kind, and concerned for the welfare of the community. He reminds me somewhat of Ashley Wilkes, if you have read Gone with the Wind, or seen the movie. I think he doesn’t really go after Eula because he knows he can’t compete with DeSpain.
As best I remember about legal contingencies that Linda has drawn up in Oxford, she will not inherit her mother’s wealth, after signing it over to Flem (of her own will).
Maybe Flem is not evil, just despicable?
Your comment about Gavin and his sister is very interesting. Brother/sister relationships are important in Faulkner and sometimes incestuous, at least emotionally. The Sound and the Fury and Absalom, Absalom come to mind. And Gavin and twin sister are obviously very close.
There are still some things I want to know about these characters, so I’m getting into The Mansion—slowly.
As best I remember about legal contingencies that Linda has drawn up in Oxford, she will not inherit her mother’s wealth, after signing it over to Flem (of her own will).
Maybe Flem is not evil, just despicable?
Your comment about Gavin and his sister is very interesting. Brother/sister relationships are important in Faulkner and sometimes incestuous, at least emotionally. The Sound and the Fury and Absalom, Absalom come to mind. And Gavin and twin sister are obviously very close.
There are still some things I want to know about these characters, so I’m getting into The Mansion—slowly.
26dianelouise100
There are still more things I want to know about these characters, so I’m slowly getting into The Mansion.
28dianelouise100
>27 dchaikin: I got bogged down on Section 2 (Linda) and picked up the audio version, which is proving to be helpful. Narrator’s interpretation and expression have made it easier to follow. Can’t say as much for his “Southern” accent, but I’m enjoying the audio anyway. It’s making a nice change. I might have to retract “mediocre.”
29arubabookwoman
I should finish The Town today or tomorrow. I have to say I like it more than either of you seem to have (Diane and Dan). Definitely more than The Hamlet, although I believe reading The Hamlet was essential to reading the Town. I agree that The Town is not one of the "masterpieces" though, which to my mind include The Sound and the Fury and Absalom, Absalom, both of which I've read multiple times. I've also loved/liked As I Lay Dying, Light in August, and Intruder in the Dust. The only Faulkner I've read that I actively disliked was Sanctuary.
I find Gavin a familiar character--the small town southern boy from a family with history sent to an Ivy and/or abroad to be educated, then returning to take his place as small town royalty. Here I like that Faulkner has given him a twin sister, and she gets to keep us advised of the unspoken rules and regulations of the small town that Gavin is constantly on the verge of flaunting, but never quite going far enough to accomplish anything. I do like that he tries though, and I like that he recognizes that the Snopes, particularly Flem, are not good for anyone, and he wants to do something about it. (Or is that just something he tells himself to justify his interest in Linda?)
I come down on the side of Flem being evil. While in The Town, most of what he does is mainly money-grubbing, he did enough in The Hamlet for me to believe he is an evil character. Interested to see what else he might do in The Mansion.
One thing I've been wondering is why Will Varner married Eula off to Flem when she became pregnant, rather than to the father of the baby, McCarron. That would have been the more usual way. We know Flem got other advantages from Varner--but was Flem the one who manipulated Varner to marry Eula (for financial advantages, present and future), rather than the other way around?
One of my favorite things about Faulkner is the way he manages narrators and narrative techniques. I love that sometimes he tells his stories with narrators who weren't there and have no personal knowledge, but have had the story told to them, sometimes even passed down through multiple levels and/or generations. Here Charlie tells of events that happened even before he was born. And having a child narrate, Faulkner gets the story across even though the child may not fully understand what is actually going on, what the undercurrents are. I think Faulkner is a master at this. Although Ratliff is a grown man, he is another narrator who's mostly just passing on stories he's heard,
And of course there is the southern oral story-telling tradition--the old men sitting on rockers on the porch of a country store telling yarns, lots of digressions, but eventually you get the gist. I've listened to a couple of the books on tape, and there was a rhythm and a flow to hearing the book that doesn't always come through when you're reading it. So I'm glad the audible version of The Mansion is working for you Diane.
I may have some additional comments on The Town when I finish later today or tomorrow. I should start The Mansion shortly.
I find Gavin a familiar character--the small town southern boy from a family with history sent to an Ivy and/or abroad to be educated, then returning to take his place as small town royalty. Here I like that Faulkner has given him a twin sister, and she gets to keep us advised of the unspoken rules and regulations of the small town that Gavin is constantly on the verge of flaunting, but never quite going far enough to accomplish anything. I do like that he tries though, and I like that he recognizes that the Snopes, particularly Flem, are not good for anyone, and he wants to do something about it. (Or is that just something he tells himself to justify his interest in Linda?)
I come down on the side of Flem being evil. While in The Town, most of what he does is mainly money-grubbing, he did enough in The Hamlet for me to believe he is an evil character. Interested to see what else he might do in The Mansion.
One thing I've been wondering is why Will Varner married Eula off to Flem when she became pregnant, rather than to the father of the baby, McCarron. That would have been the more usual way. We know Flem got other advantages from Varner--but was Flem the one who manipulated Varner to marry Eula (for financial advantages, present and future), rather than the other way around?
One of my favorite things about Faulkner is the way he manages narrators and narrative techniques. I love that sometimes he tells his stories with narrators who weren't there and have no personal knowledge, but have had the story told to them, sometimes even passed down through multiple levels and/or generations. Here Charlie tells of events that happened even before he was born. And having a child narrate, Faulkner gets the story across even though the child may not fully understand what is actually going on, what the undercurrents are. I think Faulkner is a master at this. Although Ratliff is a grown man, he is another narrator who's mostly just passing on stories he's heard,
And of course there is the southern oral story-telling tradition--the old men sitting on rockers on the porch of a country store telling yarns, lots of digressions, but eventually you get the gist. I've listened to a couple of the books on tape, and there was a rhythm and a flow to hearing the book that doesn't always come through when you're reading it. So I'm glad the audible version of The Mansion is working for you Diane.
I may have some additional comments on The Town when I finish later today or tomorrow. I should start The Mansion shortly.
30dianelouise100
>29 arubabookwoman: I agree with your list of greats, would add the novella The Bear.
I think you’ve got Gavin down perfectly, I knew some Gavins growing up in Montgomery and Faulkner had two or three in his circle of friends.
Love what you say about Faulkner’s narrators! That’s probably why listening to the AB’s is such a pleasurable experience, I’m feeling much more drawn in to the story, right on that porch myself with big ears.
I think you’ve got Gavin down perfectly, I knew some Gavins growing up in Montgomery and Faulkner had two or three in his circle of friends.
Love what you say about Faulkner’s narrators! That’s probably why listening to the AB’s is such a pleasurable experience, I’m feeling much more drawn in to the story, right on that porch myself with big ears.
31dchaikin
thanks Deborah. Interesting. And glad someone is enjoying. :)
I posted a review
my thread: https://www.librarything.com/topic/351556#8212122
book page: https://www.librarything.com/review/158257176
I posted a review
my thread: https://www.librarything.com/topic/351556#8212122
book page: https://www.librarything.com/review/158257176
32SassyLassy
>29 arubabookwoman: ...but was Flem the one who manipulated Varner to marry Eula (for financial advantages, present and future), rather than the other way around?
That was my take on it. Flem saw an opportunity and grasped it wholeheartedly, especially as he probably realized it was a way to carry on his family.
That was my take on it. Flem saw an opportunity and grasped it wholeheartedly, especially as he probably realized it was a way to carry on his family.
33arubabookwoman
Well I finished yesterday. What a way to end--with those four little Snopes "Indians." I wonder if they will make an appearance in The Mansion? They just seemed so random, but seem to evidence the worst Snopes traits.
34dianelouise100
I couldn’t understand that at all. I can see a reference to Byron who robs the bank in Flags in the dust, but so disconnected? And at the end? Very puzzling.
35dchaikin
I assumed that was postscript humor. You’re sad (about the suicide ), but hey, buck up, look at this nutty Snopes disaster.
36dianelouise100
>35 dchaikin: I think you may be right here, Dan, but I think the abrupt change from highly charged emotion to something comic just didn’t work for me.
