Chapters 9 - 17

Given the degree to which The Coffee Trader depicts merchants tricking and deceiving one another, do you think trade on the Amsterdam Exchange inherently deceptive, or is it simply trade in which some people choose to behave deceptively? How do the activities on the Exchange influence the lives of traders when they are off the Exchange? Can merchants effectively rope off financial deception as one aspect of their lives and behave ethically elsewhere?

I do think it seems as if being deceptive is just a fact of life on the Exchange. If your first thought upon hearing of a deal is that you are about to be tricked or fooled, then deceit is more the norm than an exception. I find the characters in this book very deceptive in most aspects of their lives and I also feel that they have little or no trust for anyone they meet or anyone in their daily lives. It does not appear to me that they are capable of acting one way on the Exchange and another in their everyday lives. So far, I do not have much affection for any of the characters except Hannah and, in fact, do not think that I even like most of them.

>2 bookaholicgirl: So far, I do not have much affection for any of the characters except Hannah and, in fact, do not think that I even like most of them.

That has been my experience too. Icky characters.

Do you think they're 'icky' because they're not well developed, or because they are? I personally do not like any of them, but find that the author is doing a great job of portraying them, so I have some meat to chew on when I say I don't like them. Their attitudes and actions (money seems to drive everything) are what makes them not very likable to me.

I'm only up to chapter 11, but to respond to the OP, I don't see how they could "effectively rope off financial deception as one aspect of their lives and behave ethically elsewhere". For one thing, I don't think anyone can do that even now, very easily. Character 'should' spill out into all aspects of your life. If you can turn it off that easily at work, you probably do it elsewhere. But as for the book; the exchange was only officially open for a couple hours in the day; not sufficient time for market trend "research", which seemed to be conducted mostly in the taverns during off hours. This seems to be more of a lifestyle. Miguel admits that he has a natural knack for sniffing out good trades, which to me, indicates that he doesn't leave it 'at the office'. What makes him interesting to me is his struggle. I think he wants to be someone other than who he is, and if only he could just do this one last 'job', he'll be able to become who he wants to be. This is a recurring trait of the human condition that we still see today; we often try to justify our actions. Is the Exchange inherently deceptive? I don't think it had to be, but it would only require a few traders to be so before the rest would feel they had to be, just to swim with the big fish. I think Miguel is on a personal journey, and I'm hoping that he ends up in the right spot before it's all over, but we'll see.

#2 & #3~~I like Hannah's character, too. I am getting a little weary of the Exchange, and she is a nice break.

#4 - I agree that the characters are very well developed. When characters are not well developed, I have more of an "I don't really care about them" attitude as opposed to the deep, intense dislike I am starting to feel for most of them. Miguel is bad enough but his brother is a truly horrid person.

I think the deceptiveness is so woven into their characters, particularly Miguel's, that they don't even see it anymore. Miguel is constantly justifying his behavior by saying it is a means to a proper end. He even twists Jewish laws to support his conclusions and his actions. He doesn't seem to believe that he is truly deceiving or harming anyone so long as all is made right in the end. In this way, I think he's deceiving himself more than anyone else.

The characters' deceptiveness seems to branch from times before the exchange and even before they lived in Amsterdam. Perhaps it is a trait developed while practicing their religion in secrecy while pretending to a religion they did not believe in. If a person is capable of this deceit it is not a great jump to believe that they then use these traits and habits to their advantage on the Exchange, as well as other aspects of their life. Once a person has learned to lie or cheat in one area, I believe it would be difficult to prevent the habits from flowing into other areas as well.

It seems to me that Miguel lives in such a restricted society that deception becomes an adaptive survival strategy. His every move is monitored. I think it's probably common that people who have no freedom learn to be habitually deceptive. Once deception becomes a learned part of behavior, how do you know when to turn it off? Realizing this, I can't help but have some sympathy for Miguel. He's not an exceptionally good person, but he's the most likable character other than Hannah, at least so far.

I think that character is something that you carry with you always. You don't just check it at the office. So deceiving people on the exchange to make your buck does reflect on your life at home. This is however, quite tempting I am sure. That is why we have so many disclosure rules and insider trading rules today. So I guess that I do not think that the trading on the Exchange is in and of itself unethical. It is just the way some people carry out that trade.

On the other hand, I do think that having to practice your faith in secret is quite a burden to bear. I do not think that being secretive about that would be a lack of character. It must be so hard to have to hide that part of yourself and be forthcoming about other parts of yourself.

I do have some sympathy for Miguel. Here he finally makes the trade to get out of debt and he does not get paid. He can't seem to win.
--BJ

Post quickly! A prize will be given out shortly for the BEST POST in this thread!

this post will definitely not win any prizes!!! i think the book should have been called THE ART OF THE DEAL but Trump...trumped that one....everybody scheming and trying to outdo everyone else...kinda like real life, if one's an stock trader (i have known a few...they were always working an angle...both in their business and personal lives). the paranoia and self-justification i have no idea if Miguel's Big Scheme will work or not...but the way he's going and the amount of coffee he's consuming...i see a breakdown in his future...
;-D

I was just thinking this book could just as easily be named "The Coffee Traitor"

I'm trying just to concentrate on this part of the book and the OP question, since I finished the whole thing last night.

I don't see that the activities of the Exchange have anything to do with their behavior. The Exchange is simply the venue the characters choose to make money, and their character traits are quite conducive to this type of activity. Perhaps it shows that we are drawn to jobs (or ways to earn a living) that are best suited to our character traits. I do think that having been raised to have to always hide certain parts of one's heritage and beliefs would influence behavior in all aspects of life. I don't think Miguel could have turned off his Jewishness any more than he could turn off his wheeling and dealing.

Likewise Alfonso, Daniel, Geertruid, Hannah, and Annetje are all to some extent hiding certain aspects of their lives from others, and often from themselves. None of these characters is very likable, in fact, for the most part, with the exception of Hannah, I find them downright NASTY. At this point in the book, I was hoping for some redemption to take place. I won't spoil the rest of the story.

I see trade on the Amsterdam Exchange as inherently deceptive. However, I would generalize that to say that I would see trade on any commodities exchange as inherently deceptive. If we exclude luck, the only way to make a large profit is to be in a position to have more information that your competitors on what a market will do. This, in turn, leads to attempting to withhold information from your competitors. Finally, this leads to attempting actively to deceive them. Is this ethical trading?...no. Is this the state of affairs on any commodities exchange?...I suspect so for the real players.

Like many of the posters here, I doubt that traders can draw a barrier between their ethics on the exchange and their ethics in their real lives. If you're the type of person who flourishes in that market, then I believe it's inherently in your personality.

It's probably more visible in the exchanges of 1659 because dealings are largely personal, rather than done remotely and electronically, but I doubt it was more prevalent.

I don't think people will behave differently in- and outside their work. When you walk around at the Exchange and in dusty bars for trading opportunities, it will influence your whole life. Especially while it involves money, something you need in the rest of your life as well.

I'm really curious in Miguels trade, although it will be called trade with foreknowledge (is it called like that in English, as it seems a too literal translation to me) nowadays. Was it allowed at that period?

I'm only specculating, but I believe so. From what I can tell, the only important thing about the trade in Miguel's time period was the trade and goods themselves; I don't believe that the Exchange of this period had all the rules of the present.

I think there were a few rules of the Exchange, but Miguel was probably more restrained by the Ma'amad dictating who he did business with and when.