Group Read: The Aeneid, begins June 21

On the first day of summer which is June 21, we (which includes you if you would like to join in!) are proposing to begin reading the Aeneid in the Robert Fagles translation. NO LATIN REQUIRED!!!!!
I am posting the thread now to give everyone time to notice this group read option and to acquire a copy. You are welcome, of course, to read whatever translation you like, but the Fagles has been highly recommended.

Also posted on the group page. Feel free to copy the announcement over to the Message Board thread.

As ever, thank you Jim. Am I right that you are thinking of climbing on board?

Yup. I just need to dig up a copy!

Commenting to catch this thread. I'm in!

Ok, I'm up for it. Not done a group read before. Need to get a copy...

Me too.

Hmmm, I've been meaning to read the Aeneid ever since school (we had to translate a couple of bits for Latin GCSE), so add me to the list. ...now, which translation do I have (goes to rummage around)....?

It's a pity Fagles' translation has not been made into an unabridged audiobook. I've been meaning to read it since last November, but was stuck in the Introduction. Hopefully with the group read, I'll advance much further than that.

Ooh, I think I'm in. I'll go find a copy of the Fagles' translation. How fast a pace do you think you'll set?

Karen O.

Not too fast -- maybe when enough folks have copies we can experiment and figure out what is comfortable? I still don't have my copy......

That pace ("not too fast") sounds great! I just requested the book from my local library, although I might buy my own copy once we get going. I'm really looking forward to the group read.

Karen O.

Great! I have to get over to West Philly where I am hoping to pick up a copy cheaply now that the students have flown......

I'm in, and my copy (of Fagles) should arrive next week. After this one I'll just have to read my unread-for-5-years Fagles translations of the Iliad and the Odyssey ;)

I have an old Penguin Classics prose translation (can't remember who by and not sure how to search for different translations of a work easily on LT - any suggestions?) which does not look very enticing. Have asked my library to reserve the Fagles - first time I've done this and not sure how long it will take...

The San Diego library has 14 copies of the Fagles. I would like to participate--I read the Iliad and the Odyssey in my teens, but never the Aeneid. And I too have heard great things about this translation. But I may be starting late--retirement is June 18 and I have a million things to get done and don't know if I'll be done by the 21st. Even so, I would only be starting to read on that date.

No one is going to start reading officially until June 21. I still don't have my copy yet...... I just connected that the date I am officially moving -- driving to Vermont 'for good' -- is on the 20th of June. So the 21st will be a great day to start something big and new though I might not read very much, I will certainly open it!

Congratulations on your retirement! And lucky you with so many copies available. Sounds as if they might have had a group read sometime?

I'm going to give it a go - I've read bits before for uni, but never the whole thing, and it seems a bit less intimidating if a bunch of other people are reading it too!

Hi Natasha! And welcome. I think that's how we all feel and what we are all hoping for.

I'm in, but I'm still resisting the Fagles.

I'm all for it -- because now I'm thinking that it would be interesting and worthwhile to have one or two other translations -- I forget, is yours Fitzgerald? I have an old one, Rolfe Humphries and I will take a look at it to see as I go along.

I'd like to follow along with you all too, if you don't mind. Probably won't do a reread (I've read it many many times), but I have such a love for this poem that I'm excited to discuss it with you!

I read a "good parts" version in college, and promised myself I'd come back someday and read the whole thing. This seems as good an excuse as any to make good on the promise.

My library has a copy of the Fagles translation, so that's the one I'll use.

I'm also in! Just ordered my copy - I have no idea which translation it will be. There was just one version available for order in my local bookshop.

Welcome everyone! Twenty days to go! I still don't have my book. What a cliffhanger!

I got my copy!

I've made it clear that I intend to be a silent lurker only on this thread, so I debated with myself whether or not I should post this, but as you see "go ahead" won out.

I was poking around on the internet this morning, chasing down something about Dorothy Canfield Fisher, and for some reason up pops someone's reading blog and the image that showed up on the blog was the Fagles Aeneid. He was patting himself on the back for buying the book, how "impressed" the clerk was, blah, blah. But then he mentioned another book: The Seven Sisters by Margaret Drabble. Now chances are that some or most of you who are going to do this Aeneid group read know of Drabble's book, but on the off-chance you don't, here's the blurb on the guy's blog about the book:

"As a companion volume to The Aeneid, I am reading Margaret Drabble's The Seven Sisters. In this novel, she writes in part about an adult community center Latin class in London, in which the aging students compare many different translations of The Aeneid to the Latin. The heroine, Candida, a rather muted, practical, judgmental, but smouldering-under-the-surface adventurous aging divorcee, organizes a trip to Italy with the class after the adult education center closes and becomes a health club. The health club is modern, but discussing The Aeneid gave purpose to Candida. Book 6 of The Aeneid is the key for Candida. Anyway, it’s a charming novel."

Happy reading.

Edited because I can't spell Aeneid.

Im in. Getting a copy today

Oh yes, so when I popped over to the LT link for The Seven Sisters, I see that it's in both sybix's and LizzieD's libraries. So you both obviously have this one covered. I think while you read the Aeneid, I'll read the Sisters. Heh.

What's scary is that I can't remember reading the Drabble, but maybe it's why the Aeneid got bumped up my list of must reads ....... What happens is, I sit down for fifteen minutes with a book I can't remember but know that I read and then the whole book suddenly comes back. At least.... so far. I can clearly see the cover... I guess that's a good start.

Got my copy of the Fagles a week or so back - I bought a copy as I wasn't sure if my ordered library copy would arrive in time for the group read.

I haven't come across The Seven Sisters. May be interested when/if I managed to get through the Aeneid first...

My copy's here - haven't started yet. I'm waiting till June 21. I'm 100 pages into Robin Lane Fox's The Classical World: An Epic History and it's taking me aaaaaaaaaaaages. It's good, but I know very little about Greece, which is the first half of the book.

I will have to read The Seven Sisters after the Aeneid. I just know that I will end up reading the entire thing in a day, and then it would not be a "companion" book...
I have my copy of Fagles. It is sitting next to the kitchen table and it eyes me when I walk by. It's looking now - kind of like those googly eyes in the Geico ads. I may have to just start reading it.

I have an old copy of The Aeneid. I might try to read along, even though I know it is not Fagles. It is from when I was in college.
--BJ

Billiejean, I think it's good that we have a mix of translations - makes it more fun!

Labwriter I haven't heard of The Seven Sisters but will look for it.

I've ordered my Aeneid --- it should arrive in time to start more or less with every one else! I'll be in the car all day the 21st anyway driving driving driving. But Tuesday I will sequester myself at some point to read. I have a Rolfe Humphries somewhere, but I may have packed it up by now.

So far I continue to resist the Fagles; just stubborn, I guess. I do have *7Sisters.* In fact, it's the book that elevates my monitor so that I don't have to strain my neck. I haven't read it and suppose I could find another book that size to replace it - but not yet! (I do love Drabble though!)

How is this read going to work? Are we going to set a certain amount to read each day? Is someone going to be "in charge"? Or are we all just going to read and comment randomly? I loved following the Henry Adams group read, even though I wasn't reading it, because it had a structure and conversations on each chapter. This does, though, put the onus on someone or someones to take a bit of a lead (and I'm certainly not able to volunteer, as I will be in hospital during most of it).

I think it made all the difference that in the H.A. thread we were reading more or less together. I don't have my copy yet -- due to stubborness -- but perhaps someone could pull out the volume and estimate what an hour or so of reading a day would add up to page-wise? We could do less than that too, of course but I think we would never ever finish. It seems to me that we left weekends as 'catch-up' or 'get-ahead' time. Any other suggestions? We also occasionally just decided as a group that we needed a break. This group is much bigger, so I imagine there will be a fair amount of momentum.

Well, it's broken up into 12 books, so the easiest thing may be to break up the readings that way too. Plus, each book is a nice, manageable chunk, and they all lend themselves to nice separate discussions.

Thanks Amber -- About how long do you think each book should take? A week? Two weeks? I wish I hadn't been so stubborn and had my copy already! And we could always stop for a breather now and then, of course, nobody should be stressed!

I've got my copy here. There's a 40 page introduction, then 340 pages of poem. What do you think about trying to do it in a month and reading 3 books aq week? That's only 80-odd pages a week, and the lines are of course quite short!

I won't have an hour or so a day (even allowing for weekend catchups). 3 books might turn out to be too slow but it would balance finishing it before we forget what happened at the start and having people feel that it's manageable.

That sounds reasonable enough to me..... but what do I know? Weigh in, folks, although I appear to be moderating, I am not sure if there will be internet where I'll be for the next couple of days, so I'm counting on you all to sort it out.

I like Cushla's suggestion - 3 books a week. That's a book every two days, in terms of discussion, or we could leave discussing all 3 until the end of each week? I'd go for a book every two days, catch up at the weekends?

Three books a week sounds good to me. I could do a book every 2 days, too.
--BJ

I like a book every 2 days too. I just read the first page and it flows really well so far!

I think that's a workable allotment too. Some books we're going to want to discuss a lot, I predict, and others not so much - or maybe not. Anyway, I'm happy to confine this to a month.

I'm happy to give that arrangement a try. I've not done a group read before and don't think I'll be very good at reading a little bit per day alongside other reading - tend to stick to one book at a time. So I'll see what happens - I may have to do my Aeneid reading once a week in a catch up session.

I like the 3 books a week plan. Sounds manageable.

I agree with the 3 books per week plan - definitely manageable. LizzieD is right, though - there may be some books that will have us discussing more than others (Book 4 and 6 are the big famous ones (Dido and the Underworld, respectively) and there's tons of great stuff in there). I could discuss each book until those proverbial cows come home, but I'm just a Vergil nut.

Oh! I just thought of another related book that some non-Vergilers might like to try. I have it and haven't read it, so I don't know how good it is. Lavinia by Ursula K. Le Guin, anybody?

LizzieD: I haven't read it, but I've heard good things about it from reputable sources.

Lavinia sounds interesting. I love Le Guin but don't know this one at all. It definitely sounds like a good related book to read.

#51: I read it last year after seeing it on Library Journal's "Best books of 2008" list. I quite liked it.

I started reading on Saturday and made it into book 2 late last night. It took me a bit getting used to the language. I need to check which translation my copy is, but it's not the Fagles. It doesn't rhyme and keeps well to the hexameters.

I've read some English poetry in the past, but this is the first time I am reading "poetry" (the Aeneid counts as poetry?) that was translated from something else into English and it feels different. I found it works better for me if read aloud.

This book is on so many 'must read' lists, but I can't remember if it has been dicussed at my school at all - in 9 years of Latin classes. We did a lot of Ovid, Caesar and Cicero, but for whatever reason I think Vergil was not covered.

At least now I know where that famous quotation 'timeo Danaos et dona ferentes' comes from! :-)

Deern: Yep, the Aeneid is poetry. I'm a little surprised that you didn't encounter Vergil in 9 years of Latin, although I'm also a bit at odds with how prominent he usually is in the high school Latin classes. Yes, the Aeneid is incredibly important and no one taking Latin should not be taught it in some form, but honestly, his Latin is too difficult for that level. It's a conundrum.

And speaking of great famous lines, you can't beat that first one, eh? "Arms and a man I sing..." First lines in epic poetry are so so important and significant. He's already nodding to Homer (although how could he not?), who has two of the best first-liners of all time.

Alright, clearly you all are gonna have to rein me in from time to time - I'll have a tendency to run off at the mouth in this discussion. I'm kind of a huge Vergil fan and can't help myself. So, please feel free to tell me to shut my hexameter hole. :)

scaifea, please keep your hexameter hole open.

*snork!* Nearly spewed coffee on the keys at that one! LOL!

I have my book and I am reading, though, at present, engaged with the introduction. No question too small, no comment too minor -- I will return tomorrow.

Okay, I have read Book I, and I'm hooked. One of my first impressions is the allusions to both the Iliad and the Odyssey - I know that Vergil wanted his poem to be the Roman version of these, and himself to be the Roman Homer. Also, he wanted to give Rome a pedigree to match that of Greece - Rome here descends from both the Greeks AND the Trojans - can't do better than that!

But another thing that strikes me is the really visual nature of the descriptions. I could really see the winds blowing the ships around, the sailors on the beach, Aeneas with his mother, Dido's temple, the feast - everything really. Nowadays, writers often write with films in mind, I think, but to me it seems like Vergil really wants his listeners/readers to SEE the story, not just follow the action. Or maybe it's just this modern translation - do those of you reading other translations feel this visual element?

#60: JanetinLondon: You're spot on about the visual nature of Vergil's descriptions - it's there in the Latin. Plus, he can do some pretty amazing things with the meter too. There's a famous line in Book 1 in the narrative of the storm where he describes a ship as being engulfed in a huge wave, and in that line of the poem the word for 'huge' is at one end of the line, the word for 'wave' is at the other end, and 'ship' is right smack in the middle of the line.* So, the line itself mimics what's going on in the story. Beautiful! Plus, he uses the meter to make theme music, if you will, for certain characters, much like Peter and the Wolf or the soundtrack to Star Wars. Juno, for example, and Dido too, have theme music of a kind. When they come on the scene, the meter in those lines tend to follow a certain cadence and rhythm specific to those characters.

*Latin word order is different from English - so this can happen without causing any difficulty in reading and understand it.

I've been off doing family stuff today, so I'm behind but delighted to see discussion! Does everybody's translation have lists of place names and his common names for both the Trojans and the Greeks? I remember that not knowing drove me batty when I started this. (Amber, you are giving us lively, nifty ways of reading. Thank you!)

#61 Re the ship in the storm & the different rhythms for different characters - see this is why a group read for the Aeneid is such a good idea - these are things I just wouldn't have spotted on my own (although I haven't begun yet, so I shall have to keep an eye out).

I've downloaded an audio book of The Odyssey which I'm planning to listen to in conjunction - hopefully, it should make an interesting comparison.

#63: Unless you're reading the Latin, you probably won't notice the word order play and the meter rhythms. I don't know of any translator who's been able to recreate those things. That's partly why I decided to mention them, in fact.

#64 I've got a copy of it with the Latin next to the English (on adjacent pages) somewhere - I was planning to have that on hand as I read the Fagles version (it's such a shame that that doesn't do the same thing) - but unfortunately, I don't seem to be able to find it anywhere. Grrr. My Latin probably isn't up-to-date, or good enough anyway, and my knowledge of poetry style is pitiful, but I'd like to be able to read them in parallel...

I've started - but only read a couple of hundred lines so far. I'm glad there's a glossary of names (I'm reading the Fagles) - a few are familiar but plenty more are not!

edited to add which edition I'm reading

I'm really glad I decided to join this group read as I haven't read it since HS/College (more than 2.5 decades ago). I totally agree with JanetInLondon about the visual nature of the descriptions. They are so vivid and you feel like you are right in the action.

So, okay, here I go with my 'take' on Book One. These are just a few impressions, things that were especially vivid for me.

Book One

Juno, still wrathful, coaxes Aeolus to release some winds, Neptune intervenes in a timely way, Venus' appears, disguised, before her son. The fact that the men and women in the story are not fully able to determine their own destiny is immediately emphasized.

Sensation of the captive winds: "They bluster in protest, roaring round their prison bars with a mountain above them all, booming with their rage."

First and properly Aeneas provides food for his men, then he grieves for those he believes lost in the storm.

Aeneas captures all of my attention. His interaction with his mother. First when he thinks he is speaking to a local huntress and recounts his woes and she interrupts: ""Venus could bear no more of his laments/and broke in on his tale of endless hardship:/'Wjpever you are I scarcely think the Powers hate you:/ you enjoy the breath of life, you've reached a Tyrian city. So off you go now." Spoken like a true mother.

I like how he cries out when he realized who she is: "Why, you too, cruel as the rest? /So often you ridicule your son with your disguises!/Why can't we clasp hands, embrace each other/exchange some words, speak out, and tell the truth?" This rings true of adult children and parents the world over.

Then, the curious flashback to the war -- PTSD, and I don't mean that lightly; even seven years later he has these horrific visions, so realistic he is transported, unsure of what is real what isn't.

Hidden in the mist Venus wove around him he watches Dido, sees the rest of his lost companions arrive and beg her for mercy, then he steps out of the mist and presents himself to Dido and she welcomes him. Before they go to their own feast, she very properly sends food down to her guests, while Aeneas sends for his son (who must be rather young?) and marvelous gifts for Dido.

Then the plot thickens -- Venus replaces the son with Cupid, just long enough to make sure the Dido becomes besotted with Aeneas. They feast, a poet sings, and then Dido asks Aeneas to tell the story of the war.

What struck me the most was the interplay of building the 'plot' -- the schemes of the gods, against the character of Aeneas -- whose qualities of leadership, humanity, goodness, and even his inner torment and weakness have been demonstrated vividly -- he is fully rounded already by the end of this book, but we also know other forces are at play. Aeneas himself knows that he is subject to vagaries over which he has no control, no say.

I have lots of reading to do this weekend - just through book 1. I am enjoying this very much, and greatly appreciating Amber's comments!

About the scenes on the temple: Aeneas sees scenes from the Trojan War, bringing back all sorts of memories and emotions. But (and here's the amazing part), his comments about the scenes reveal that he thinks they are some sort of tribute to the Trojan effort, but here's his first (and not last) misunderstanding of what he sees - this is a temple to Juno, who oh-so-famously is very anti-Trojan, throughout the entire war and now is still opposed to Aeneas' success. So no one building a temple to Juno would decorate it with scenes that glorified her enemies. He's misinterpreted the pictures. Now, this doesn't mean that he's an idiot, of course. What I think (and others think this too - it's not in any way an original thought from me!) is that this is part of how Vergil creates a new kind of hero; Aeneas isn't the old school Greek hero, who is nearly in a race of his own, super-human with super-human issues and problems. Aeneas is just a normal guy who has been thrust into extraordinary circumstances, resisting and stumbling along the way to the destiny that he sort of gets but doesn't really understand in a Big Picture kind of way. He does the best he can with what he's given, and *this* is what makes him just wonderful in my eyes. Vergil, so much more than Homer, to me, understands and can beautifully describe human nature - this really comes through when we get to book 4 and (sigh) Dido.

Sorry again for running off at the mouth - I can't help it, I just love this poem.

I'm here, just completely waylaid by real life in the form of the start of school holidays. I'm really enjoying it too, and so much more because of your comments. I'm late - almost finished book 1 - but stunned at how readable it is. I can already see myself wanting to re-read it, because at the moment I need to check the character list all the time.

I did one book - I think - of the Aeneid in Latin at school, and it was wasted on me. As Amber said it was a bit hard, but I had no idea of the context or even where all the places were! It was the book with the sea monster. I hope I'll recognise it when we get to it, and I'll try to find the Latin on the internet somewhere.

Right dinner is cooking and the bathroom is half cleaned... we are going away for a week tomorrow so I will probably miss the discussion on Book 4!

Aeneas is just a normal guy who has been thrust into extraordinary circumstances, resisting and stumbling along the way to the destiny that he sort of gets but doesn't really understand in a Big Picture kind of way.

That's exactly it! What I am finding remarkable in this translation is how well Fagles alternates and balances the 'formal' dutiful Aeneas to the inner man, who feels 'just like us.'

Hmm I simply reacted that the scenes 'triggered' his own nightmare of the battle, that it barely mattered what they were really -- ah well --

stunned at how readable it is Yes!

Ah yes, real life, I'm struggling with that a bit too -- I'm counting on Sunday afternoon .

I'm enjoying all the comments and trying in a mighty way to polish off my ARC so that I can give Vergil the time that he deserves. I'll be with you soon, I promise.

I'm back -- I meant to add that I am reading Sheri Tepper's The Gate to Women's Country which draws heavily on The Trojan Women as well as The Odyssey and The Iliad AND The Aeneid...... I love the way that happens!

Book II - Clearly many many essays and theses have been written about Book II. I’m not an expert scholar, but just want to comment on three things in particular that stood out for me:

1. Retelling the story of the fall of Troy – the audience must have known this story, but Vergil is telling it from a different angle, entirely from Aeneas’ point of view. This again establishes his character – brave, respectful, but also impestuous and, as others have said already, imperfect. It stresses again that Aeneas isn’t totally free to do what he wants, but is tasked by the gods – this helps us to stay on his side later, when he does some less than wonderful things. It also reassures the audience (I think I’m right that people would have had the Aeneid read out loud to them, not read it to themselves) that this story is worth hearing, it will be something new, not just same old same old. This is like many books today, or films, where we already know the story, even maybe how it ends, but what matters is how the author gets us there, the little quirks he adds, the new take on an old tale.

2. Relative roles of gods and men – I don’t think it says that the gods decide everything – they have decided the big picture, in this case the destruction of Troy (as a step on the road to the rise of Rome, the ultimate point of the whole story), but they don’t fill in every detail, leaving men some room to decide how to act and to have some influence, even if short term. If the Trojans had acted differently, the horse trick might not have worked (and the gods would have had to try another approach). The Trojans could have believed Laocoon rather than Sinon. They could have interpreted Laocoon’s death as a sign that Minerva had deserted them. And most of all they could have noticed the noises of the armor inside the horse:
“…. four times the armor
Clashed out from its womb. But we, we forged ahead,
Oblivious, blind, insane……..” (II 307-309)

3. The theme of revelation and rebirth – At the start of the description of the fall of Troy, the Trojans, and Aeneas, are blind – they don’t see the trickery of the Greeks, they don’t see their cause is lost, and Aeneas does not see that his fate is moving in a different direction. The story contains many descriptions of things being seen, being shown, being revealed – the men in the horse are revealed, Aeneas sees the Greeks destroying the city as they approach, probably many many others. But the main point is what is revealed to Aeneas about his fate, and how hard it is for him to accept it.

Hector reveals to him that Troy is lost, that he must take the household gods and leave. But he isn’t ready to do this – he just wants to keep fighting. The key moment comes when he sees Helen and wants to kill her. Venus steps in, opening his eyes to the new reality he has to accept – Troy is lost, fighting is pointless, he must move on, he must SEE:
“Look around. I’ll sweep it all away, the mist
So murky, dark and swirling around you now,
it clouds your vision…..” (II 748-750)

He still isn’t totally convinced – when his father refuses to leave, his first thought is to stay and defend him, only backing off when the miracles occur and convince his father to leave. And when Creusa is lost he rushes back to search for her, only stopping when she herself appears to him and tells him to leave.

At the very end, he looks around, realizes it’s a new day, with a new challenge which he must take up – Troy is fallen, Rome will rise. Everyone is counting on him. He finally accepts it –
“……..So I gave way at last and
lifting my father, headed towards the mountains” (II 997-998)

What an ending! Dido and her audience must be hanging on every word, and waiting to see what will happen next. I know I am.

Haven't checked in all week, as I figured I was behind everyone, but I'm caught up now. It took me 3 days to get through the introduction, but I've been able to fly through the first three books yesterday and today.

I read the Iliad and the Odyssey as a youth, more as adventure stories than as a scholar, and am familiar with the general story of the Trojan War and the mythology going in. It's amazing how much one retains from years ago regarding the characters and relationships. I didn't realize there WAS a character list until cmt commented on it, but I have used the map extensively in these first three books. The pace seems quite doable, allowing me to fit in other reading around the edges as we go. (Indeed, my devouring of The Enchantment Emporium this week delayed my reading here.) And yes, the verse is eminently readable. I have heard that the Fagles translation is outstanding, and I believe it. I will be sorely tempted to go back and read the other two books in his translation when we are done.

I don't have anything new to say, just that I am enjoying this.

I have only read Homer, and it's fascinating to get the Trojan point of view. I like the Fagles translation (not that I have any Latin to judge by) because it feels rhythmic and I can see the scenes as they play. I am also finding it helpful to read out loud. My family is being tolerant, but occasionally some eye rolling is seen. My 11 yr. old hung around for most of book 2.

I finally finished the first three books this morning. I think that reading out loud is a wonderful idea! I am enjoying the story. I especially liked the second book about the fall of Troy. The scene where Aeneas wants to kill Helen was powerful, I thought. I am reading the translation that I read when in college -- C. Day Lewis. (Amazing that I have kept it all these long years and even more that I could locate it among the other books!) There is no list of characters or map or even much of an intro, but I asked my girls to give me a brief outline of what is going on, and it is pretty readable.

Thanks for all of the wonderful insightful comments from everyone that is really helping my reading of this book!
--BJ

My favorite part of the Fall of Troy narrative is the Pyrrhus/Neoptolemus & Priam episode. The image of Priam, old and frail in his rusty old armor, being dragged along, slipping in the blood of his last (of 50!) sons just killed, chastising Neoptolemus for being a wicked disappointment to his father, Achilles, and being answered by the young reckless and very dangerous Greek with (something like), "Fine, go tell it to my father in hell - now die!" Goosebumps every time I read it. It gets even more powerful when juxtaposed with the meeting of Priam and Achilles toward the end of the Iliad: mortal enemies (one the king of Troy and the other the best warrior on the Greek side), one coming to ransom his dead son's body, the other knowing he will soon die and will never see his own father again. Amazing.

#79 - Yes, I agree. That was a particularly chilling scene.

Janet has laid some great groundwork on 2 -- I can add that I was most struck by the masterful way V. narrows A's options, peels away all reasons to stay to defend Troy, peels away all hope, and then makes it imperative that he leave, with no loss of honor. I am guessing that in the atmosphere of 'fight to the death' it isn't easy to explain why such a great warrior would leave the battle before the bitter end -- so great care had to be taken, I am guessing, to make clear that this was the greater and necessary choice -- not only that A. has a destiny to fulfill, but by implication, there is no loss of valor in being able to see when a battle is lost and when saving what you can becomes the imperative.

I keep reminding myself too, that despite the grand hyperbole, we're talking about a small small city by our standards. It's all relative of course.

Priam's death is excrutiating and moving, yes.

Losing Creusa -- I would love to hear other reactions to that. I mean, he has to lose her to make the story go, but any other thoughts about it?

>77 nittnut: I love it that your 11 year old hung around! I'm not surprised.

I meant also to add that A's acceptance and departure might be showing a development/difference culturally between the practical future founder of Rome and the 'less evolved' heroic Greek? Just a thought. Any comments?

>82 sibylline: - I think this is right - Aeneas is more of a rounded man, hence more like the rulers of Rome, whose ancestor he is supposed to be, and more possible to aspire to, rather than an inaccessible ancient Greek-type hero. He evolves into this in the course of Book II, and throughout the story.

>81 sibylline: - Creusa - I suppose it also serves to show what a loving husband he was/could be, again as preparation for Book IV with the Dido story? And again, how reluctant he is to carry on with his "quest" - he really shouldn't go back to look for her, because he shouldn't risk being killed before he gets started - Vergil makes a point of saying how he runs around shouting her name, surely not a sensible/safe thing to be doing.

Hmm, Aeneas as a rounded man like the Roman leaders...I've always been of the anti-propaganda camp here. Augustus commissioned this poem from Vergil, so naturally there are points of praise, but I side with those who see some underlying dissonance in here as well. I'm not sure how Fagles translates this, but there are several moments throughout the poem where Vergil gives Aeneas the epithet "pius" ("pious" doesn't really cut it as a translation - a 'pius' man was one who revered his family (father and ancestors), the gods and his country. So, Aeneas is "pius" as he leaves Troy, famously, with his father on his shoulders, the household gods in his arms and holding his son Ascanius by the hand - the ultimate picture of all three aspects. However, in nearly all other places where this epithet appears, Aeneas is doing something rash, not very noble, outright stupid, or contrary to his 'mission'. He's described this way as he leaves Dido, and also at the very end of the poem (I'll not open that glorious can o' worms until we get there!).

My thanks to you all. I'm reading and trying to play catch-up, but I keep heading for the Latin to see what caused the choices David West made in my translation. I love Aeneas' humanity - he's certainly not a Greek hero - through the first six books. Thanks for the insight into the rash 'pius', Amber. We are fortunate to have you. I will catch up and actually make a contribution soon whether I have anything helpful to say or not.

I am so impressed by the many insightful comments posted here! For me the combination of English language, hexameters and half-forgotten Roman-Greek mythology is quite demanding, so I miss most of the fine subtleties and have to concentrate on keeping up with the pace.

I am glad that I was able to follow the story, and your comments often make me go back and reread certain passages. So far I have enjoyed the reading very much, especially book II and book IV which I just finished. Both are incredibly intense. I found Dido’s obsession with Aeneas and her pain almost palpable. What a great drama!

#84: It is interesting to compare Aeneas' hesitation in leaving Troy (and Creusa) to his behaviour towards Dido in book IV. I'll not write more, but for a few minutes I quite hated him.

My copy (the Oxford World’s Classics edition translated by Frederick Ahl) supplies many annotations with information about both the mythology and the translation work (Ahl often tells why he translated something this or that way and some of the original puns are explained). There is also a map which I used throughout book III. I have no idea if Ahl's translation is a good one, for me it is certainly good enough.

I am trying to read the book aloud, so almost every night I end up with a croaky voice. Luckily my neighbour just moved out – I don’t really want to know how a Latin epic poem translated into English hexameters read out (very unrhythmically) by a German must sound to an Italian ear.

I am going away from my computer for the holiday weekend. I hope to have lots and lots read when I get back.

Since no more comments on Books I and II have appeared today, I'm assuming it's okay to move on to talking about Book III. I'd love to hear what people think about that one, because for me, it was really unsatisfying.

I can see that “what happened next” is necessary to the story. I can see how it parallels Homer, as well as giving the audience a new take on some old stories (for example, the cyclops episode). And I can see that Aeneas develops further as a new, “modern” kind of hero, overcoming the various problems and disappointments the group faces. The problem is, I found most of it boring. After the strong visual elements of the first two books, this one seemed mostly “told” rather than “shown” – almost as if Aeneas wants to just rush through it, now that he has finished what he thinks of as the interesting bit, the battle (maybe that’s part of him still developing, still not realizing the journey itself is important).

I was particularly unhappy with the section with Andromache. It left me with a lot of questions, which I guess the contemporary audience would have had answers to – How did Helenus and Andromache get there – they have been there a while, if they have built a whole replica city. When did they leave Troy, and how? Wasn’t he a slave during the war, captured at some earlier stage, or did I misunderstand that bit?

One thing I did find very interesting was that they didn’t even know where they were supposed to be going at first, and misinterpreted the various information they were given. This relates to the whole theme of the journey towards one’s fate, the twists and turns along the way, and the fact that the gods don’t plan every single detail, nor do they make things easy for men, even when that would make it easier for them (the gods) to achieve their own aims more quickly. Even for the gods, the journey matters.

Overall, though, I felt let down by Book III.

I'm with you Janet. I finished it yesterday and wrote up a couple of impressions, and have since been waiting for some kind of 'big bang' inspiration that will pull it together. All that I can think is that Virgil thought this wandering around having a bad time part was obligatory to the 'genre' -- there is even a tonge-in-cheek quality about it to me -- like he knows he's being a little ridiculous and emulative of Homer, but so what. And you're right, it's familiar, but just ever-so-slightly shifted to show that it is not the same era and these are different men and women. Plus, presumably V. knows what he's going to slam his listener/readers with in Book 4, so there is the delayed gratification, torture the readers who are just wondering if D and A are going to get together or what.....

I wrote , Hunh? in the margin next to the appearance of Andromache. I wonder if this is not something he would have tinkered with later had he had the chance.? It must serve some purpose -- perhaps -- wait -- to show how futile it is to repeat Troy? It is small and slightly pitiful -- better to go and start something exciting and brand-new?

Here's also my weird thought. Since the anthropologists have recently begun to realize Neandertals were around a lot longer than they thought plus we did interact etc. I found myself wondering if 'the Cyclops' aren't some 'memory' of these different humans -- they weren't so much bigger but they did have much heavier bones, a monstrous unibrow (could look like one eye from afar) and a receding chin --not as delicate and pretty as homo sapiens -- just a silly thought as I went from my latest Science News back to the book..... always looking for the grain of truth in the myths.

Couple of things:

1) When you're reading a work that deals in mythology, you have to let yourself relax about the details of the stories. That's the whole point of a myth - it's changeable so that each new teller can shape it to his own purposes. Most myths have more than one version with varying details and lose ends that don't always make sense when you examine them too hard (ex: Achilles, in 'real' time, would certainly not be old enough to go to war (he'd be around 5 or 6 at the most), and then while at Troy he fathers a son who is one of the leading warriors by the end of the 10-year war!) and this didn't bother the Greeks or the Romans in the least, so it shouldn't bother us.

2) Many many cultures have a version of the cyclops archetype story and a lot of them are remarkably similar, so yeah, there must be something behind it.

I've finished the 4th book at last. I always forget what a busy time summer is once it gets into swing, how hard it is to say no to outings and that people visit (and oh dear you have to hang around with them not reading!!!!!!). I can't imagine I am going to do much better than two books a week.

Book Four

Okay, so when Dido tells her sister of her mad passion for Aeneas, inflicted, of course, by Venus, Anna tells her to go for it. “These were the words that fanned her sister’s fire,/ turned her doubts to hopes and dissolved her sense of shame.” Shame being the operative word there -- implying -- she'll get what she deserves by being wanton.

Juno sets up a rainstorm to throw A & D together alone in a cave.... and the inevitable happens, and although there is never any official formal marriage, Aeneas swears privately he is hers and Dido accepts that. Venus has silently gone along with Juno’s plan, knowing full well it will end in disaster.

Rumor enflames Iarbas jealousy (a spurned suitor of Dido’s) and he appeals to Jove to do something about it. Jove sends Mercury a dream-vision to Aeneas reminding him of his duty to go and found Rome. Aeneas obeys and begins to ready his ships to depart. Naturally Dido catches ‘wind’ of this and goes bananas. After raging awhile, she begs Aeneas to stay which he refuses. Stunned and stung and seeing that she has ‘ruined’ herself she resolves to die, but tells no one.

Aeneas is driven by duty, Dido by love. I take this illustrate the great gap between men and women -- which -- up to the present is glorified (by men) as the better, the inevitable, the necessary course. You could argue that this sense of duty is man's (as in males) doom -- this need to avenge, to succeed, to push on and never be satisfied with something good in the present. While women are not entirely without this drive, it appears to press less urgently, to be a more of a balanced part of what goes into making decisions about how to proceed. There are also many men who can set aside duty for love, although they tend not to be respected by men and by otherwise sensible women!

Whatever the case, it is one of the aspects of Aeneas character that must be ritually demonstrated, that he is willing to sacrifice a beautiful and meaningful and satisfying relationship to go and do his duty. He also has a duty to provide an inheritance for his son that is worthy of him: if he and Dido had a child, where would that leave Ascanius?

No doubt one can (and others have) devoted reams and reams of paper to this question.

Dido gives A. one last chance, begs him to simply delay, give her time to accept the necessity that he must go, wait for better weather, but Aeneas whipped up by the vision and perhaps afraid that he won’t ever go if he doesn’t push off immediately, refuses. This was an ‘it’ moment for me -- for one can’t really excuse this level of his cruelty. Would the gods reallyhave minded if he had taken his time pushing off? Probably not -- this was his personal choice, one feels.

When she pours her final libations they turn black and filthy. A sign of the wrong she is doing? Don't know quite how to take that.

She tricks her sister into building her funeral pyre (since it was Anna who encouraged her to go for it?) And then says the most poignant thing: “If only I’d been free/To live my life, untested in marriage, free of guilt/as some wild beast untouched by pangs like these!"

Aeneas, oblivious to her sorrow - steeled against it, justifies/rationalizes his plans to flee -- corroborated by Mercury although there is an element of doubt whether it is the ‘real’ Mercury in the wording: And now in his dreams it came again - the god,/his phantom, the same features shinging clear. /Like Mercury head to foot, the voice, the glow,/the golden hair, the bloom of youth on his limbs/.... “ This time Mercury warns him that Dido is plotting to send warriors and ships after him. he ends: “Up with you now. Enough Delay. Woman’s a thing/ that’s always changing, shifting like the wind.”

We know that Eros can appear as another, so this might just be Venus making sure he doesn't lose momentum.

And so Dido, seeing the white sails in the dawn light, climbs on her pyre and stabs herself fatally......

Of note: Dido does not accept her ‘fate’ whatever that was, but kills herself instead. However, despite this transgression, perhaps because she knows she manipulated her, Juno takes pity on her and sends Iris to cut a lock of her hair so she can go to Hades.

The end of book 4 is where I have bogged down in the past. War and Peace has a similarish incident where a great character bites it and you look at was is still left to read and think, who cares! Who cares about Aeneas founding Rome after this incident! But that is the point, I suppose, that it is just one incident, one more obstacle overcome on his way to his glorious destiny.

End of Book Four

I must try to read a bit more - still not progressed to book 2.

You've had a lot on your plate..... and book 3 is not all that gripping, comparatively speaking......

Book 4: The breakup scene is one of the most realistic in the history of literature, I believe. I really believe that Vergil must have went through a bad breakup at some point because he sure knows how awful they can be. Dido going through all the usual, very human, things to say, including Don't you love me anymore? and Aeneas' classic reaction, which is to stand there with him mouth open, dazed look on his face, not really knowing what to say. Again, Vergil's description of Aeneas here is gorgeous language: linquens multa metu cunctantem et multa parantem dicere ("(Dido), leaving him behind as he hesitates out of fear and at the same time tries to figure out how to say many things"). Sorry, I'm really not doing the Latin justice - it's a beautiful phrase that is impossible for someone as ineloquent as me to put into English. At any rate, it paints such a vivid picture of him just standing there at a total loss, as if he's thinking, "uh, what the heck just happened?!" Oh, and as he packing up in a hurry to skip town in the middle of the night (nice one, Aeneas), guess what he gets called by Vergil? Yep, *pius* Aeneas!

Dido is an amazingly crafted character. She, as sib mentioned, stands outside of fate in a way and is frequently labeled "ill-starred" (in fact that's what she is when she's very first mentioned in the poem). The best simile *ever* is here in book 4 about her and Aeneas: it's the one about Dido being the deer and Aeneas the hunter; the hunter shoots an arrow into the wood and unknowingly wounds a deer, who also doesn't understand what's happened to her. It highlights the idea that neither of these characters are really at fault or in control of what happens to them, and that Dido is *the* tragic figure of this poem - undeserving and even almost unfated for what happens to her.

One more thing then I'll clam up for now: There's a theme that runs through this book, starting from the very first few lines, where Dido is described as having an old, silent wound. This is a metaphorical wound, meant to represent her grief over the death of her husband. When she is made to fall in love with Aeneas, we hear about the wound again - it's waking up and starting to hurt her again. Then, of course, the deer is wounded in the simile, and so on (it comes up a few more times throughout). Finally - and this gives me chills every time I read it - at Dido's end and the end of the book, the wound changes from metaphor to reality, and it's no longer silent: as she finally dies, her real wound gurgles as the last gush of blood flows out. Powerful stuff.
We'll see her one more time, in book 6 (in the Underworld), and that's a fantastic scene too!

Good stuff from Lucy and Amber! Thank you both!!!! Unfortunately, I'm still in Book III and unable to comment although I burn to. (Maybe the burn will speed up my *Anid* time.)
Amber, I do want to ask whether you have more insight into Mars Gradivus than "an old name for Mars." I am consistently fascinated by the various manifestations of the gods; I get the "divus" = "deity" but what about the "Gra" part?
To highjack the thread for a minute, I enjoyed The End of Mr. Y by Scarlett Thomas in part because of the appearance of Apollo Smintheus. Sure enough! He manifested as the Mouse-god and a temple ruin still stands in Turkey. And while I'm asking, is anybody familiar with Black Ships by Jo Graham? It purports to be the story of A's sibyl. I have it wishlisted at pbs but would remove it if it's not any good.
I'm probably taking the evening off to watch a movie, but will maybe, surely have something to say one day!

Mars Gradivus is the manifestation of Mars who leads an army out into battle. I think that Gradivus here comes from the very gradior = to walk, go; hence he walks into battle at the head of the army. So, since the -di- is in the stem of the verb, the -divus part of gradivus does not = divus/god here.

Small Spoiler of Book 6:

I just finished Book 6. The story of Aeneas is action packed and quite dramatic. I am enjoying this read a lot. I especially enjoyed the 6th book, with Aeneas running into Dido and Dad. I even liked book 5 with the stories of the games and all the prizes.

Are we still reading 3 books a week?
--BJ

Thanks, Amber. That makes sense.... Billiejean, I'd be happy to slow down a little since I never got up to speed. I wonder whether you might do your own thing....... What do the rest of you think?

Billiejean -- I think because it is summer it is unlikely I can manage more than two books a week, doing them justice.

However -- and speak up if this is a problem for anyone out there -- as this is a classic work, the 'story' more or less absorbed or osmoted into us, I don't think 'spoiling' is a big concern. The more I know ahead ot time about 'the story' the more it helps me to slow down and admire the magnificence of the writing.... If something thrills, annoys, puzzles or otherwise catches your fancy, please please just post about it, whatever book you find it in. Nothing too small, nothing is silly here. We are not in a classroom thank goodness!!!!!

I love everything in that last post Amber -- it is indeed a great break-up scene -- one can be moved, frustrated, deeply angered and so empathetic for both of them --. I don't always take a feminist stance either -- I just like to pick up the rock and look underneath it, and I like to throw out ideas just to see what other folks think -- but this 'pius' biz, it really is at the heart of things, isn't it? -- the justification for choices and actions by Aeneas. It feels, to me, like a stance that Western culture has grown gradually less comfortable with. In many contemporary cultures, I think that is not the case. Are we more evolved? That is not for me to say, my purpose is to point out a change in attitude that can make Aeneas behavior just look caddish and unimaginative. Thinking it over the fact that Venus isn't quite sure enough of him NOT to send the 'fake' Mercury, is helpful to balancing his 'human' (non-heroic) side.

Two books a week is fine with me.
--BJ

I'm still here, back from our trip away. I'm behind but am hoping to catch up pretty quickly.

One thing that strikes me is how theatrical it is - in Book 1 I was giggling at the picture of Aeneas covered in mist or fog so that he couldn't be seen at Dido's court. I could imagine it on a stage. Have any of you listened to Purcell's opera, or even better, seen it? I haven't but after this I might look for a recording.

What an inspired idea - finding the Purcell!

Indeed yes too - I keep trying to remember that this epic is written to be recited to an audience in a dramatic way, so of course there are moments of comic relief. I've just finished the boat race in book 5 which is full of slapstick and comedy meant to move us on, no doubt from any lingering brooding over Dido.......

# 102: I couldn't help myself 'translating' the events of book IV and V into our modern world and especially in book V it felt like a comedy (the guy escapes from all the love drama to watch a game with the mates). It is a welcome interlude before we get to the spine-chilling events in the underworld in book IV.

I would also prefer reading just 2 books per week.

Just a note to say that I'm still in Book 3 and being less patient with Aeneas than I remembered from before. Creusa told him that he was going to have to find Hesperia where the Lydian river Thybris flows, and did he pay attention? No. It takes a couple of failures and a visit from the Penates and the ruminations of Anchises for him to believe that Hesperia is the place. This strikes me as more man vs woman thinking again. Sheesh.

(And does anybody know what Venus saw in Anchises in the first place?)

LizzieD: re: Venus & Anchises: There's, as always with myths, a couple of versions to this story. According to one, Jupiter got fed up with Venus always making him fall in love with mortal women and hence getting him in trouble with his Old Lady, Juno, so he somehow got her to fall in love with a mortal man to humiliate her (Anchises being said mortal). The other version is that Anchises is one in a long Trojan family line of very handsome men, so handsome that even Venus couldn't help herself. Paris is somewhere in this same attractive family line - he so good-looking that Jupiter picks him to choose the winner of the golden apple. Oh, and Ganymede is in there too - so pretty that Jupiter whisks him away to Olympus to be his *ahem* cup-bearer.

Hi. Had an unexpected couple of days away (a friend had a stopover in London on her way back to the US after a business trip), so am now officially in the “behind” group – I think two books a week is more achievable for most of us anyway, so will start doing that as of today (with Book V).

Meanwhile, here are some thoughts on Book IV, things that struck me as interesting (in addition, of course, to the amazing story and the big male/female, love/duty issues discussed by some of you above).

1. The role of the gods/their interplay with humans – obviously happens all the time in this book, but a couple of places I really noticed it:
- Juno thinks if she can get Aeneas to stick around, Carthage, one of her pet cities, will be stronger (it is surrounded by potential enemies). She is such a proponent of marriage that she thinks this is the mechanism that will achieve it, and thinks she is tricking Venus (who cares more about love, and I think sees this affair as a way to weaken Carthage by getting Dido to take her eye off the ball). She just refuses to believe that duty trumps love/marriage, but the message here for the listeners is that it does (as discussed by sibyx above).
- Jupiter hasn’t been paying any attention to Aeneas (or to Juno’s machinations), but when Iarbas complains that his prayers haven’t bought him any satisfaction, Jupiter gets re-involved and sends Mercury to remind Aeneas of his mission. Humans accept that the gods don’t watch them every minute.
- Humans also feel free to call on whichever gods they think can help them in a given situation, including unconventional ones – in lines 605-617 (in Fagles) Dido discusses bringing in an African priestess with different talents, and this priestess subsequently appeals to “her 300 gods” (line 639).

2. The great descriptions – after the noticeable lack of them in Book III, Vergil is back on track, with lots of great descriptions, such as:
- Dido and her sister visiting the altars
- Dido alone in the hall after the feast, flinging herself on Aeneas’ seat
- Aeneas heading out to the hunt, looking beautiful and godlike
- the storm scattering the hunters
- Rumor flying around
- Mercury’s journey to Aeneas
- Dido wandering around mad

3. The great speeches – I agree with Cushla (#101) that it is all very theatrical, Book IV even more so. I have heard this book described as a standalone “Greek tragedy”, and I think maybe Vergil was showing off how well he could handle that genre. The speeches are so theatrical they are almost descriptions. Some of the ones I really liked were:
- Anna convincing Dido it would be okay to love Aeneas, as long as she placated the gods first
- Dido’s soliloquy where she decides she really has no choice but to die (lines 667-690)
- Dido’s mad, distracted speech at lines 456-487, then her “cursing” speech at 782-784.
I’m sure others of you had other favorites?

4. The use of past tense to signal changes in the action – Most of the story is in the present tense. But when new sections start, the scene changes, or different characters start speaking, the first few lines are in the past tense. (I checked with my classicist husband, and he looked at the Latin, and he says this is Vergil, not Fagles) This must have helped the listeners, and maybe also those reading it to them, to register the transitions, because the lines run on in the original, not with paragraphs as Fagles has it.

After this amazing, dramatic story, I can see how it can seem that the rest of the book is all just an anticlimax, but I’m fascinated to get on to Book V and see how Vergil tries to avoid that (for surely he realized that Book IV was a real highlight and this could be an issue?)

#106 Janet: In reference to Dido calling on the African priestess - here in particular she calls on African gods because, well, Dido is African, not Trojan, nor Greek. Sometime it's hard to remember that, since she's so synonymous with the Aeneid, she's not Roman or Trojan but is in fact fairly exotic.

#107 - You’re right, I’d forgotten that Dido isn’t Greek or Trojan – but I think she’s Phoenician, not African, isn’t she? Also, I think my point is still valid – up until this point all her references to gods have been to mainstream Olympian Greek/Roman ones, and now she’s getting desperate and says she’s heard of this priestess who prays to other gods (not Phoenician or mainstream Greek/Roman). I think she is “turning to the dark side”, appealing to less mainstream gods, in her desperation to keep Aeneas.

I love the range of what you've brought to our attention Janet -- I was thinking too, that the shifting back and forth from the huge (grand speeches) to the minute detail was breathtaking in 4. And thank you for the heads up on the past tense shifts. I hadn't noticed that at all.

I do think D. is Phoenician, which is interesting in itself, a venerable Mediterranean culture on its own, that is. When I can (the library where I am using internet is going to close in a few minutes!) I am going to read up on them. I just remember that they went all over the place in their boats, were very adventurous very early..... Yes and I had a similar fleeting thought (I admire you so, for catching it by the tail) that she was getting desperate enough to step outside of her own 'religion' ..

I haven't read a thing today -- all office work and errands and it is incredibly hot and humid -- in the mid-90's which is staggering in Vermont -- but it is really the humidity that makes it so miserable. We've put up a tent outside so we will be under the stars looking for Scorpio in the South.

Phoenician indeed she is. Sorry, I was referring to the fact that she found Carthage, which is in Northern Africa. And you're right about the out-there-ness of her deistic desperation at the end - not even so much that she resorts to strange gods than that she resorts to what sounds suspiciously like witchcraft.

NB: Of course, her curse at the end (that all people of Carthage forever pledge hatred to Aeneas' people and that someday they'll pay) is one of the points where Vergil ties history with myth. Here he gives his readers a mythological origin and reason for the very historical and real Punic Wars. It's one of his very cool, what I like to call Back to the Future moments: describing what is still unknown and in the future for his characters, but very real and in the past/present for his contemporary audience.

I'm back from vacation, but am hopping on a plane for a few hours. Fortunately, can use the time to catch up! I'm definitely enjoying the discussion so far.

#110 - sounds like witchcraft, yes - did people at Vergil's time use it?

and the curse - it's so powerful - "endless war" - sounds like a science fiction plot. How long did the Punic wars last?

witchcraft: Oh yes, it was there in the classical world. There are some fantastic descriptions of witches and sorceresses in Greek and Roman lit. (Circe in the Odyssey, Medea, and one of my favorites is the witch scene in Lucan), and we have tons of evidence of 'actual' magical practices (mind you, not actual magical results, but people trying to do magic) - people would write curses on little tablets or fragments of pottery and leave them at the grave sites of certain kinds of dead people, whom they called the restless dead - those who suffered violent deaths or died young. They thought these particular spirits were particularly powerful and could grant their requests to hurt/curse other people. They're pretty funny to read; stuff like, "my neighbor's tree fell on my property and he won't do anything about it - make his she goats dry up and not produce milk." Petty little things mostly, things I wouldn't want to bother an angry ghost about if it were me. Oh, and the usual jilted lover stuff too.

Punic Wars: 3 of them total, lasting in all from 264-146BC. Hannibal plays his part in the 2nd one. They're all over, then, by Vergil's time, but still very fresh and important in the Roman mindset.

ETA: I should mention that there are a few good books out there, if anyone's interested, on ancient magic. The best imho is Magic in the Ancient World by Fritz Graf. Smart but very accessible.

I've wishlisted the Graf -- thank you Amber!

Overall I found Book V surprisingly lively.... Virgil's scheme to get my mind off Dido was entirely effective.....

Book Five covers a good bit of ground firmly moving the story away from Carthage and plunging the reader/listener into a new set of problems and decisions after one last puzzled glimpse of flames rising over Carthage. When the Trojans reach Sicily (where they are pushed) Virgil offers combined duty wtih comic relief. Some things never change, do they. The atmosphere of the games is remarkably similar to our own with upsets, calling foul, tragedy, injustices, bickering, and generosity.

All goes well until Juno enflames the Trojan women into setting some of the ships on fire so that they will no longer have to travel in them. (pre Title-9. They were bored and felt left out.) Jupiter puts the fires out, and Aeneas’ leadership is shown here as he consults one of his wiser elders and listens to what he says: “Whatever Fortune sends, we master it all/by bearing it all, we must!’ That could be their motto. Nautes advises to let those who have no taste for adventure stay and found a city.

This is a most adroit way, I am thinking, to honorably -- indeed most graciously considering the women tried to burn up their ships! --for the Trojan warriors to divest themselves of their remaining women so that they will be free to take new wives once they reach their destination -- to begin, as quickly as possible the merging of Trojan and native Italian blood one of the most effective ways to conquer. Also this gives Aeneas the chance to winnow the group down to the most adventurous, by implication the best of the best to be the founders of Rome. At the same time, I also felt that it was indeed true wisdom to leave behind those who ‘feel no need for glory’ - a recognition that different types of people have different limits, which seems quite evolved of Aeneas. Even if very convenient too!

Venus appeals to Neptune to keep those who travel on safe, to their destination, and he agrees to do it, for the price of one life. The description of Palinurus falling asleep at the wheel, spoke to me, as I have driven through many a long night on some dark thruway....... And methought of those pilots in Michigan or wherever it was last year -- good thing they couldn’t say ‘the gods put us to sleep with a bough drenched in Lethe’s dew.’

More nods to Homer everywhere here in Book 5: The funeral games are a direct reference to Patroclus' funeral games in the Iliad (and the differences in details are not accidental - Vergil asserts that Aeneas is a different kind of hero from the Trojan War kind very strongly in this part), and Palinurus is a shout-out to Odysseus' helmsman who gets drunk, falls off Circe's roof and dies - and Odysseus doesn't find out about him until he gets to the Underworld.

#101, #102: I had picked up Purcell's Dido & Aeneas at the library (I can't remember if it was because of this Group Read, or because it was mentioned in another book). The majority of the liner notes are missing, so I'm hoping the action of the opera is close to the poem.

Karen O.

Thanks to everyone for their great comments on what is taking place in our reading! It helps me, very much new to the classic poems, to understand what's going on. I'm really enjoying the reading!

Karen O.

Well that's nice of you! Don't be afraid to speak up about any odd connections and ideas that come into your head as you read -- or questions to keep Amber busy.

Back from the wilds of Utah. Two books a week would be helping me out. This is not a pool-side read, and I seem to mostly be pool-side.

If anyone is interested, there's a really great collection of essays on the Aeneid (one for each book) which is really very good: Reading Vergil's Aeneid: An Interpretive Guide. Just thought I'd mention it.

#116 I've just bought Dido and Aeneas (Trevor Pinnock) for an exorbitant 32 francs for 1 CD (um, about 24 Euros and I think USD...). I also managed to lose my 3 yo badly in the shop while I was paying for it for a good 10 minutes so ,it had better be good! It has full liner notes. I'm not into Book 4 yet so I'll wait till then to read them all.

Amber that book sounds good. The first thing on the list after the Aeneid for me will be the Iliad, I think - there are so many spillovers in Book 2 and at the moment I'm just reading the Aeneid as a straight-up story without knowing all the different versions. I'm also saving the translator's note and the intro for when I'm a bit further through the book - I have a bad habit of reading introductions then not getting through the book...

I'm in Book 3 and I have one finger on the map and one on the poem, just like you Deern. I'm not reading it out loud, but I am reading it out loud in my head (if you know what I mean_ to get the metre.

And Sibyx - way back to your earlier comments, when Aeneas lost Creusa my reaction was "Huh??" I mean, fine to lose her but not to notice for ages? Very convenient to the plot!

Was Book V where the winning boxer (can't recall the name) receives the prize bull and then hits him on the head, killing him? Why did he do that? Was the bull a sacrifice or was it dinner for the banquet?

I have to say that I loved the descriptions of all of the games.
--BJ

>121 cushlareads: I am reading a few pages of the Intro at a time. And also saving the Translator's Note for when I am done -- although maybe if and when I finish the Intro I'll start that. It does have a bit of useful info.

Things do seem to happen 'conveniently' -- but then it is a story! I sort of forget that as I'm reading sometimes. That as much as anything it is meant to thrill and entertain.

I'm going to see if I can find the essays cheep. Good idea!

The games were enjoyable.

And times have changed after all since we don't smash some animal's head in at the end anymore. I'm sure they ate him.

I liked the games too. I did not like Dido's flameout. Get a grip woman, you're the Queen!

I was guessing the oxen were an award/sacrifice to thank the gods for the victory? I like how practical they are with sacrifice. Make the sacrifice, do the whole entrail and blood thing, eat dinner.

nittnut: I think you're right - killing the prize bull meant it was to be sacrificed, which in turn meant a feast (the gods got the inedible parts, the rest was for the lowly humans to eat (see Hesiod for the aetiological myth for this)). BTW, bonking the bull on the head stunned him, so the actual slitting of his throat wasn't (supposedly) painful (I think that's right; I'm nearly positive I know that for a fact, but I could be imagining that I know that for a fact...).

Where is everyone??

I have begun Book Six -- It feels different in flavor somehow -- I'll have to think about what I mean by that ... well, trips to the underworld... are unusual, harder to get back than to go, as the Sibyl points out.

I was very drawn to Aeneas looking for the golden bough. I don't know why that is such a gripping image but it is.

I'm in book six too.
Many similarities to other stories, references to Hercules, etc. Maybe that's why it feels so different?

Oh oh, the golden bough is one of my favorite bits! It's another passage where "pius" plays a very interesting role. Okay, so the Sibyl tells him that the bough will give way easily to a worthy man, yes? And what happens when Vergil reaches up to take it? He has to tug at it a couple of times before it gives way. So what kind of hero is he? Is he really worthy of the task set before him? And, of course, as he's tugging on that reluctant bough, he's called "pius".
In a similar vein, pay close attention to which gate Aeneas chooses to leave the Underworld by.
One more thing here: the line of famous Romans waiting to be sent up to be sent back up to the world for another life (very different view of the underworld than Homer) is one of Vergil's cool Back to the Future moments. The Romans named were all real, prominent people in Roman history up to Vergil's time, so his audience were looking at their own history, but Aeneas is of course looking at the future. Neat moment of tying past/future, character and audience together.

I have only finished Book V (comments below), but I will read VI today. Or I might listen to it instead (or probably as well) - yesterday was my birthday, and my husband bought me the CD's of Simon Callow reading Fagles' translation. I adore Simon Callow as an actor and as a reader, so I am really looking forward to listening to this.

Book V

I liked Book V – a bit of a break from the high drama of Dido, a bit of comedy, a physical pause from all the rushing around, and a little glimpse of how the women felt about being part of this very male journey/mission.

I agree with Lucy (#114) that the purpose of Book V is to shift the emphasis of the story back to Aeneas, and that the games are a good way of doing it. I also thought about what nitnut said (#124) about not liking “Dido’s flameout” – in Vergil’s time, too, some listeners/readers must have felt fed up with Dido (I did, to some extent), and must have preferred stories about races and games to stories about lost love. Book V feels like an attempt to appeal to them, to keep them interested, as well as providing a break between the big actions of Books IV and VI. And I know it is also an attempt to parallel Homer once again. Vergil was very accomplished at doing many things at once with his writing.

A couple of small things also struck me in Book V – don’t know if others have any thoughts about any of them –

1. Different ships – In the sailing race, it seems like the ships involved are of different designs. Why would this be? Weren’t they all Trojan? Or had they been rebuilt/patched/repaired so many times along the way that they were all different by now? Or were some of them the local people, not Aeneas’ guys?

2. “Prizes for all” - These days, at least where I live, schools and local governments are sometimes criticized for giving out prizes to everyone who competes in a race, tournament, etc. – the criticism is that kids should learn to deal with failure. So I was really interested to see that Aeneas gave prizes to everyone – sure, better prizes for winning, but something for just being prepared to step up and take part. Even the guys who fell over and didn’t finish got prizes. I liked that.

3. Amount of stuff - Why were they carrying around all this stuff that Aeneas used for prizes? Where did it all come from? Didn’t they leave Troy originally in a big rush? Didn’t they lose their stuff when they were shipwrecked at Carthage? Surely they only carried stuff that was actually useful? Maybe this is another one of those “suspension of disbelief” things?

Happy birthday, Janet! What a wonderful birthday present. Enjoy your day.

>129 JanetinLondon: Indeed, Janet, your number 3 struck me big-time. Where did all this stuff come from????

Not to mention all the black-faced cattle! I've figured on all three that 'willing suspension of disbelief' was very much in order! I mean, the guy is son of a goddess and headed for the underworld, so what are a few more stretches in the fabric of reality! Virgil paints such a vivid portrait that I forget he's making it all up and that he isn't really all that attached to making it 'real'!

I'm writing this sitting outside of the Rutland Public Library in southern VT, stopped to visit my daughter at camp nearby and now I'm headed toward irish music camp in the Catskills. I know you all needed to know this!

Irish music camp! That sounds like fun.

OK, so where did all the prize stuff come from ? Is it just things he's hauled away from Troy plus gifts etc. he's picked up along the way? After all, he has basically shipwrecked a couple of times.

Cut short by the sound of a LOT of water in the bathroom...

Prizes: I think that a lot of it comes from Carthage. Certainly at least one of the prizes is mentioned as being a gift from Dido to Ascanius, so it's likely that much of the rest of it came from there too. They were in Carthage for awhile, so it makes sense that they accumulated stuff.

That makes sense, it sure took a long time to load the ships when they decamped from Carthage.

*Spoiler* I am reading in book VI about all the various ways to punish sinners. Blech. Such imagination.

#132 - yes, I do like to know where people are reading - puts things into context very nicely!

I am reporting in, but I am not making much headway for the moment. However, where I am is sitting next to the Post Office/Reading Room (in lieu of a proper library) in the dark in the car in the tiny hamlet of East Durham in the Catskills because there is free wi-fi and it is delightfully cool now. I've just come from a concert and will go to a session at a pub now, most likely. I may read a page or two tonight but I have a roommate and since I like to read it out loud, I might find myself back out in the car.... I don't want to lose momentum.

I love it that we are discussing how the heck they got all that stuff (I can think of another word, begins with a c) in their boats. Might it not be a gender-tipped thing to notice???

LOL - So gender-tipped. I am thinking about all the cow pies and that probably the women were having to deal with that and the laundry, although it appears (fortunately?) that the games did not require attire. Ooh a rhyme. So at least there was no nasty, sweaty gym gear, but there were nasty sweaty men. And cattle. No wonder they were easily led in the direction of burning boats.

Today I was reading in the car, out loud to a 3 and a 6 year old while waiting outside the pool for the 11 year old. The 3 and 6 were definitely NOT interested. I also felt compelled to edit some of the more creative punishments, so it didn't turn out to be very productive for me.

>137 sibylline:. Hi Sib. I'm blown away by your dedication to your group read. If you don't mind, I'm going to quote you on my own group read (Swann's Way). It's especially apropos because last night's reading was about the Narrator sent outside by his grandmother--so he takes his book with him, naturally, as all good readers do. Hope you're having a great time!

Me too! As you can tell, I was not dedicated and have dropped out except for auditing the thread. I do, however, want to propose a thought from my Latin mentor which seems to fit in about here. She said that her Vergil professor was convinced that the "Gate of Ivory, Gate of Horn" held the key to the Aeneid, whatever that means. She wasn't sure and I certainly had no insights. I had to produce something fast, though, when she included this as a question on my final exam. So what would you have written?

Tonight I'm between pizza and the concert -- I'm going late because I only want to be sure to catch a couple of the performances -- I'm not that into irish singing, for ex.... Last night I went to bed in lieu of a session, but tonight I am full of energy....

I read a bit more today -- Aeneas and the Sibyl have 'finished the rites', planted or given over the golden bough and are on to seek Anchises. I always puzzle, no matter what the spiritual provenance, of this need for eternal torment.... and sheer meaness. One of the irish airs I learned a couple of years ago is in memory of a newborn that died unblessed and therefore could not be buried in sanctified ground. It's the saddest little dirge ever. But honestly.

Book VI

Book VI is just too big and too famous to talk about sensibly in just a couple of paragraphs. I feel like anything I write will just make clear how many other things I’m not writing about. Still, I do want to contribute to the discussion, so here goes….

1. On the “big picture” level, what struck me was the theme of “transition” – from one part of the story to the next, from one type of hero to another, from traveller to settler, from uncertainty to clarity of purpose. Aeneas arrives in Italy at last. The first part of the job – just getting there – is done. But how exactly to move on to part 2, establishing a new homeland. Is that really his fate? Will it really happen? Is the journey really over? He’s still not entirely sure.

By the end of Book VI, Aeneas knows the answers. There are still battles to fight and dangers to overcome, but he will succeed in founding a new race – not only has the sibyl reassured him of this, but his father has shown him the generations of heroes to come, right up to the present day (with all the sucking up to Augustus that this implies). His role is about to change, and he is ready. He is going to move on from being a Greek-style action hero to a more statesmanlike Roman-style one.

Before this can happen, though, there are some loose ends to tie up, both for Aeneas and for the story. In the underworld he says a final farewell to people who have featured large in his story so far, guiding him or determining his direction – Dido, Palinurus, Anchises. He is reassured (by Deiphobus, for example) that he has done everything he could in his previous role. Aeneas is now ready to move on, and so is the listener/reader. If this were a play, this is where the interval would be.

2. The other thing that struck me, once again, was the very visual nature of the descriptions. There are lots of examples, from line 312 (of the Fagles translation – sorry for other readers) onwards, but my favorites are the description of the throngs of dead trying to cross the river (lines 348-359) and Aeneas’ first sight of the spirits whom Anchises says will form the future Romans (lines 812-819). However, unlike Book II, where the fall of Troy seemed like a film, Book VI seems more like an old-fashioned slide show (or even a magic lantern show). I see Aeneas sitting in the dark with the sibyl, and each of the scenes in the underworld comes up in turn.

In this book, Aeneas doesn’t do very much – he is shown a lot and learns a lot by looking, and by asking questions. I suppose this is part of his becoming less impestuous, more thoughtful and careful, more the type of leader he will need to be to meet the new situations he is about to face.

Very nice review Janet! I like the "transition" idea. That helps me with Book VI quite a bit.

I kind of feel like I'm in school - but in a good way. I am learning a lot from all of you.

I really enjoyed reading Book 6. I thought that the scene with Dido was especially good. She is not all about forgiveness where Aeneas is concerned. I agree that it is an ending to the first half of the story.
--BJ

So well done, Janet. Thank you! Transition was the word in my mind too. What a good point about Aeneas becoming more patient, more mature. And the slide show aspect. I was able to read this book in little bits and pieces without feeling at all that I was going to 'lose' the thread of it.

And yes BJ I had the same thought about Dido. It's great she wasn't going to let him off the hook.

The only thing I can add off the top of my head is that the parade of future great Romans felt very 'stagy' -- Virgil's skill kept it from being a simple list 'and heeeeere's Augustus!" but it felt very much like something put in to please his roman audience and to bring into sharp focus for them that this story is, in fact, about THEM. So Listen Up.

Interval. Yes.

I loved Anchises explanation of the 'mad desire... for the light of life." 6:835 (ish) 'an inner spirit feeds them, coursing through all their limbs,/mind stirs the mass and their fusion brings the world to birth.'

On to 7!

Ahem, people! I am feeling a little lonely here. I did begin 7 this am -- just a page or two.

Earlier Peg asked me to give an example of the 'muscly' prose and I noticed, this morning, that Fagles chooses Anglo-saxon words (and strong simple statements and construction) wherever he can. Really, it is everywhere, but this little sentence leapt out at me. (Shades of rosy-fingered Dawn and all)

"Now the sea was going red with the rays of Dawn,/from the heavens gold Aurora shone in her rose-red car/when the wind died down, suddenly every breeze fell flat. and the oars struggle against a sluggish, leaden swell." 7:28-31

I forgive anyone who is, say, on the beach or hiking or picking blueberries or putting up jam and other summery things, of course.

Or slinging back a g & t or a cape codder or whatever. Even mint julep! Or should it be iced mead?

edited to add bibulosity

Don't feel lonely, sib. I have finished Book VII, so here goes:

Book VII

In Book VII, Vergil sets up the rest of the story. I thought he was teasing his audience a bit, at the start, making it look like the story would go in a direction they knew it didn’t. At first, it seems like everything’s going to be okay now – the sea stays calm, Circe doesn’t trap them, the prophecy that they will stay where they eat their plates is realized (although I wondered if Aeneas wasn’t just making that up to give his men confidence). Aeneas sends envoys with gifts for the local king, Latinus, who, for his part, has been told by the gods that his daughter must marry a foreigner, so he’s happy to see Aeneas arrive. So far, so good.

Except that we know the sibyl has told Aeneas there will be war, and in lines 39-50 Vergil tells us so himself, directly (as an invocation). There are also subtle references to other stories – lines 60-65 suggest Turnus will be a rival for Lavinia’s hand, with its reference to Helen, cause of trouble previously, and the whole envoy scene reminds listeners/readers of earlier on in the story, when it looked like Carthage would be welcoming, and a safe haven. Plus, of course, I’m sure the contemporary listeners knew there would be a war. It’s all just too good to be true, and just when the envoys are on their way back to Aeneas with news of peace, Juno interferes (again).

I thought Juno’s speech (lines 340-377 in Fagles) was amazing – she hates the Trojans so much, can’t stand that they are succeeding despite her best laid plans, can’t stand that other gods get to destroy whomever they like while she can’t, and decides that since she can’t stop Aeneas succeeding, she can at least delay him, and make it all as painful as possible. She’s like a little sister left out of a club. I’m wondering why Vergil dislikes her so much, giving her such petty motivations. (My husband, who is a classicist by education and knows the book well, won’t tell me, but says it will all make sense in the end.)

In fact, to me, the whole of Book VII seems very anti-female. No doubt that’s a false, modern response. But it seems like Vergil is saying that the Trojans, and Latinus, and by extension everyone else, just want a peaceful life, and women won’t let them. Juno is the starting point, and it is she who opens the gates of war when Latinus refuses, she sends Allecto to stir everyone up, they take advantage of Amata’s desire to marry her daughter to Turnus rather than Aeneas (perfectly reasonable, to my mind) and make her go mad, followed by all the other mothers of the town. Whenever women can’t get their way, their only recourse is to cause havoc (remember those Trojan women burning the boats in Book V). Vergil seems to be saying that this is bad, that they should keep quiet and let men rule the world – for example, he has Turnus say to Calybe:
“See to your own chores,
go tend the shrines and statues of the gods.
Men will make war and peace. War’s their work.” (lines 519-521)
So, even though all the killing is done by the men, and it is “their work”, it’s all the women’s fault.

As for the whole last part, naming all the armies, I guess it was important to contemporary listeners, making them feel connected, legitimized, proud of their heritage, whatever, but to me it was just like all those “begats” in the bible – only of interest to the real detail freak. I did wonder about Camilla, though – was a woman leading an army a common occurrence, or was she a real (and famous) anomaly?

Final thought – so many mentions of snakes, in Book VII and earlier. I’m sure that’s very significant, but I don’t have the energy left to think about it – anyone?

Just for comparison's sake, here is the same sentence in David West's prose translation. (If I can get around to it, I'll try to give you a literal translation sometime.) Actually, I like parts of both of them.
"And now the waves were beginning to be tinged with red from the rays of the sun and Aurora on her rosy chariot glowed in gold from the heights of heaven, when of a sudden the wind fell, every breath was still and the oars toiled in a sluggish sea."
I have to give it to Fagles for brevity, ("were beginning to be tinged" and "of a sudden" just clunk), but I really like Aurora glowing in gold, every breath being still, and oars toiling without 2 adjectives for the swell or sea.....

I'm here, just behind, and dealing with a 3 yo who thinks bed time is 10.20.
{I'm in book 4 so very very behind!} Finished the Cyclops part last night, and now am up to the bit where Dido and Aeneas get together in the cave.

I'm so happy to have such a strong response! I also forgive all those with three year olds! Who need that mint julep more than I do!

The bundled adjectives, very northron construction, and I think I did choose an good passage here, for Fagles avoids sounding -what is the word? sonorous? hypnotic? grand? ..... something. I do like the Fagles brevity, I feel much more engaged, much more in the story with this writing style. The other tends to make me sleepy.

Gorgeous again, Janet. I will respond and try to add as I can. Juno does have a bad rep. in the Goddess world. The Goddess you least want to be compared to.

Snakes, ah well, they generally don't augur anything too good, do they? Although in some cases, after death (sometimes of an idea or of illusions, rather than a physical death) can make room for a rebirth and a renewal. Big in the Eleusinian mysteries of which I've made a bit of a fetish study after seeing the frescoes in the Villa of the Mysteries in Pompeii many years ago.

Hi there. I just finished book VI, and I'm going to have a nap before I start book VII.
I liked how there is this long journey into death with exhaustive detail on punishment of sinners, etc. and then Aeneas finds his father and they visit about the Romans for another couple of pages, and then Aeneas just leaves. It took pages to get him there, and then in a matter of a couple of stanzas, he's back in his boat.

Great preview of Book VII Janet, thanks! I look forward to reading it with your comments in mind.

Wonderful comments about Book 7. I remember that I ranted on and on about Juno to my girls while reading this, but they stuck up for her. She had her reasons. It did sound like Turnus would be the trouble maker here, even though he wasn't really wanted.
--BJ

I've been unusually quiet here lately, mostly because I've always had more interest in the first half of the poem than the last half. I'll likely chime in when we get to Camilla (my favorite character in the whole work), and the very end, of course.

re Juno as a baddie: Weeellll, to be fair, she's not any better than any of the other gods. They're all petty and vindictive and not at all nice to humans. The interesting question, at least for me, is: why would the Greeks and Romans create their gods in this form? Why not make them benevolent, all-powerful creatures? I love asking this question in my mythology courses, and I'd love to hear what you all have to say about it...

re Aeneas as leaving the Underworld more mature and responsible and less rash: Yeeeaaah. I'm gonna be disagreeing with this when we get to the end, I'm afraid. Plus, I think his flaws are what make him so wonderful a character and I'd be sad to see him 'grow up'.

As you can tell, I've never gotten to the end.....

If the gods, behaving badly, are tweaking and fooling behind the scenes that does let humans off the hook for a great deal of mischief-making.

And I know there is a whole school of thought out there that at that time the human brain was only beginning to 'link' up right and left -- so that people literally did 'hear voices' that 'made them do things' and didn't realize that it was all being generated internally. I don't know what I think about all that really. But religious thinking does appear, albeit slowly, to evolve as do we (maybe?).

It's funny to think though that nowadays anyone running around saying 'Juno made me do it!" would be sent for psychiatric evaluation or ridiculed.

PS I have read no Aeneid yet today.

#152 - thanks, Jenn. I thought about your observation that it takes Aeneas such a long time to get to Anchises, and then hey presto he's back in the boat. I've always thought the journey to somewhere takes longer than the journey back, especially if it's somewhere you've never been before. On the way back, you just don't notice things as much. Of course, the real reason is probably that Vergil was done with that bit of the story, and wanted to get on with the next part!

#156 Yes Janet - I agree - I think Vergil was done, and I was too, so it's all good. I just thought it was funny. It's an ancient writer's tradition apparently, wrapping things up in a hurry to get on to the next thing.

#154 - Amber, this is probably something everyone says, but I think that if your gods behave badly then you have all kinds of excuses for behaving badly as well. It's also a convenient way to explain why bad things happen, rather than having to take responsibility for them yourself.

So apparently I'm really bad at staying on pace with group reads. This is the third in a row where I've just gone ahead and finished the thing up instead of waiting for everyone! 8^} Here are my thoughts on The Aenied this time around:

I first read it in freshman high school Latin class (yes, I was one of the geeks who took Latin in high school...). We did a little translating and read the story in English. Apparently the version I read then was not nearly as good as this translation, since I enjoyed this read much more. Or maybe I'm just in a better place for connecting with the story. Probably some of both. Anyway, I liked the approach Fagles took to the poetry *a lot*.

There were times I found myself reading passages aloud, which added a whole 'nother layer of depth to the story. This is material designed to be heard, not read, IMHO. The rhythm of the lines really pops out and a good storyteller could really make the story come alive. I may try to track down an audiobook version of this translation.

As to the story itself - this time, I really got how Virgil geared things to "foreshadow" the Carthage-Rome conflict. I definitely missed that in high school. So for instance, Dido and Aeneas had to end their relationship irreconcilably, and the underworld segment had to end with no resolution. Otherwise, the later conflict wouldn't make any sense.

I also liked Janet's comment way back on Book VI about Aeneas moving from a Greek-style hero to a Roman one. There's something to that, I think. Early in the book, Aeneas, at least to me, comes across as a copy of Ulysses. But starting with his return from the underworld, there's a solidity about him, an assurance that wasn't there before that drives us to the end of the story that strikes me as being distinctly Roman. It's as if Virgil is using this to say "Here is where the Roman way of thinking starts".

Anyway, it was good to visit this work again, just like I really enjoyed getting back to Beowulf last year with Heaney's translation.

Thank you Jim -- I think someone wayyyy back in the comments mentioned listening to a really good rendering of it in audiobook, but I'm too lazy to scroll back and look for it and my eyes hate doing that sort of thing.

I concur absolutely: this begs to be read aloud, and if you stop to think, it is a way of explaining the Carthage-Rome conflict, and I also did feel some shift happening in Aeneas, was trying to express that however inadequately. While he is very much a man of action, he has become a listener and a clever problem-solver, bit by bit.

Did you ever read Grendel? John Gardner's rendition of the 'other' POV? I loved the Heaney translation of Beowulf too.

There is an audio version of Fagles read by Simon Callow. I have it (got it for my birthday last week) and have listened to several of the books on it. He's a good reader. Not sure if there would be other versions?

Oh, but I'm not sure it's one you can download - I have it on CD's.

I have just started listening to it - I am reading, then listening, which is working well for me. I am getting different things out of it that way. Slow going, because uninterrupted listening time is rare.

I am definitely going to listen to it on some long road trip... in the meantime, I am moseying along because my life is so interrupted...

Book VIII

Not sure where everyone else is up to, but I'm going to post my thought on VIII here. Although I didn’t recognize all the characters or know the stories beforehand, I thought Book VIII was fairly straightforward. Aeneas prepares for the war – he visits Evander to try to get some more troops, then Vulcan makes him a shield and Venus gives it to him. The book is full of stories of past heroes, especially Hercules, and the founding of the future Rome, and of Rome’s future heroes.

A few things I noticed/thought about:

1. Aeneas’ speech to Evander – In lines 167-173, Aeneas says, in effect, that if Evander doesn’t help him stop Turnus, Turnus will take over the whole land. But this isn’t Turnus’ stated aim, is it? Surely he just wants to get rid of Aeneas? It sounded like Aeneas just saying anything to try to get help – “look, honest, Turnus does have weapons of mass destruction”.

2. Hercules and Cacus – A great story. I especially loved the description of Hercules tearing the crag out of the bedrock (lines 269-285). But I did think it was a bit over the top for Hercules to completely destroy his cave for the sake of a few stolen cattle. Maybe a subtle reinforcement of the importance of property rights?

3. Venus and Vulcan – A nice little interlude. Interesting that Vulcan here is a “good guy”, making armor for Aeneas, whereas earlier on he was identified as Cacus’ father, sort of a “bad guy” – a reminder of the complexity of the gods’ personalities?

4. At lines 465-470, Vulcan seems to be saying that the gods didn’t definitely decree that Troy had to fall when it did, and that if Venus had asked for his help, he would have helped Aeneas then. Am I misreading this? Here it is:
“………………..if only
you’d been so passionate for him, then as now,
we would have been in our rights to arm the Trojans,
even then. Neither Father Almighty nor the Fates
were dead against Troy’s standing any longer or
Priam’s living on for ten more years………..”

5. Evander can’t help much, so he offers to send Aeneas to see those Etruscans who are trying to fight against Mezentius, an ally of Turnus – a sort of “your enemy’s enemies are your friends” approach. In lines 562-563, he says:
“your way to safety revealed by unexpected luck.
It’s Fate that called you on to reach our shores.”
This is exactly what the sibyl said would happen, in Book VI (lines 115-116):
“Your path to safety will open first from where
you least expect it – a city built by Greeks!”
This must have been very reassuring to Aeneas, again, that he was on the right path.

6. Pallas parting from Evander – Pallas is described so beautifully (lines 694-698) that it seems immediately obvious that he must be a major figure later in the story. This reminded me of how Aeneas himself was described (or actually Apollo was described, and Aeneas compared with him) in Book IV, going out to hunt with Dido (lines 179-189).

7. The shield – When Aeneas first sees it, he wants to touch it all, like a little kid (lines 727-731). I loved that bit – it reminded me of when my daughter and her new teammates got their first proper football (soccer) uniforms – they were 9 years old, and they couldn’t wait to try them on, even though they were supposed to be listening to a long speech about the rules and so on.

8. The shield – The description is fantastic. It just begs to be read aloud. Every line is a new image, a new painting with words. I can imagine kids rushing off to draw bits of it – did kids listen to these poems read aloud at the time? It reminded me of The Illustrated Man, each little picture telling a huge story. I know it’s all about the politics, but the section on the Civil War is clearly the weakest – too long, much less interesting visuals, I thought.

9. The ending – Like us (but not like Vergil’s listeners), Aeneas does not know what all these images mean, but he feels their importance, and their artistry. The book ends with a great image of Aeneas shouldering the shield, and with it his nation’s burden:
“………………..lifting onto his shoulders now
the fame and fates of all his children’s children.”

re: The Shield: Another of those Back-to-the-Future moments for Vergil - Aeneas is looking at events that will happen far into his future, but are actual historical events for Vergil's audience. Again, in a wonderful way, he is combining myth and history - we have a mythological character looking upon scenes from Roman history, and within the civil war scene, the gods are shown as playing a part! The best part about the shield, though, for me, is at the very end, just after this long, amazing description of what Aeneas is seeing (and of course the original audience definitely knew exactly what it all was), he tells us that Aeneas says, essentially, "Whoa, cool", but has no idea what he's looking at, then literally puts the weight of the future of Rome on his shoulders and walks off. He's still the bungling non-hero; still doesn't really have any sense of the importance of what he's doing, he's just trudging along, doing what the gods tell him to do. And, again, that's why I love him so much as a hero. This moment, along with what's coming at the very end of the poem, is why I'm not at all convinced that he grows or matures as a hero, and again, that's why I love this character.

Lovely post Janet and insightful additions too Amber. I've finished Book VII and can only plead 'houseguests' for an excuse......

It seemed to me Virgil's tricky task in this book was to juggle the worthiness of both sides, since Romans are descended from both. At the end of the book the descriptions of leaders and men from various tribes seemed a part of that effort-- many listeners, I would assume, would feel connected with these various regions and tribes and thus feel 'part' of the tale.

Allecto! Wow! Juno has to call her off, before she goes too far making strife.

Onward!

Sib, I think houseguests are one of the very best excuses!

I agree, it must have been nice for the listeners who could tie some of the story in with their own families and local knowledge. And Allecto, yes, like one of those genies you let out of the bottle and can't get back in.

Amber, you keep saying how we will see at the end that Aeneas is still flawed, hasn't really grown. I'm intrigued by this - would audiences at the time have known his story before they listened to this for the first time? If not, if they were total innocents, as I am, would they have seen him as growing, as I do, or would they have realized he really wasn't changing all that much? I'm trying to work out if my ignorance/not seeing this the way more knowledgeable readers do is just because I don't know the end or because I'm too modern a reader?

I'm not sure that we know how much of Vergil's version was traditional and how much he added himself, although I'm pretty sure that what Aeneas does at the very end is new.

Glad to be thinking of these things as I move forward into 8. Hope to finish it quickly and even get a bit of 9 in under my belt before Wed. as I am then off to work at a big Harp Festival (Somerset) and if it is like other years it is 7 a.m. to 1.p.m. work and play.

Janet, thanks so much for all the thoughtful posts that you contribute. Regarding topic #4 in your post, I agree with your view of it. This was an interesting little tidbit to me.

The whole Aeneas-Turnus thing was what kept me from putting this book down. Loved it.
--BJ

LT went down just as I was posting here last weekend, and ate my post. I was just saying I had finished book 9 and was going to pause a bit while others caught up, and how much I appreciate the posts by Janet and Sibyx.

But now the library book is due, so I'm going to work on finishing up in the next few days so I can turn it back in--no more renewals!

I was completely sidetracked by Atlas Shrugged but I'm back now and will get to work! I need to finish book VII.

#170 - You're welcome, BJ! Aeneas v. Turnus, I know, v. exciting - in Book IX we finally start to see some action, but only from Turnus. I have read somewhere that the two alternate as main characters for the last few books, so I assume X will be more about Aeneas.

#171 - You're welcome, too, Roni. I know what you mean about library books - luckily, I got my own copy of the book, and also of the CD's, but I have been using a commentary book - Virgil's Aeneid by Kenneth Quinn - and that one's due back, already renewed twice. Luckily, since no one else wants it (it hadn't been out in years before I borrowed it) they are letting me keep it - not sure I can survive without it!

Hi - not sure where everyone has got to. Are we ready to talk about Book IX yet?

Actually, I read the whole thing already. The whole second half was too exciting to stop.
--BJ

I also finished it, I read the last 4 books in 2 days. I sure missed many important details, but as billiejean writes - it was too exciting to stop.

I'm in Book 6, so way behind, but slightly less behind than 3 days ago.

I've finished, too. The book was due back at the Library on Tuesday.

*whispers* I'm not actually (re-)reading it at all. It's sort of my bread & butter, and I've read it a gazillion-illion times, so hopefully I'm not disqualified. ;)

Okay, so here are some thoughts on Book IX. What do you all think?

Book IX

Both sides have been preparing to fight, and in Book IX they finally do. Although there are other elements to the story, like the ships being turned into sea nymphs, or the heartfelt grief of Euryalus’ mother, for me the main impression of Book IX was a series of little battle scenes. I like the way Vergil brings many of the individuals to life with little snippets of information, as if to say “you knew him, remember?”.

With Aeneas away, the Rutulians/Latins have the advantage. They start by encircling the Trojans’ camp (which by the way seems to have been built up very strongly very quickly). Although the Trojans have been told to just wait until Aeneas gets back, Nisus and Euryalus are desperate to get into the action, so they volunteer to go through the blockade to let Aeneas know what’s going on. But they get sidetracked, and overexcited, and start killing sleeping enemy soldiers, which in turn leads directly to their own deaths. This seems a pattern in this Book – the soldiers on both sides are very brave, but sometimes they get overexcited and careless, and they pay the price:

- Euryalus and Nisus stop too long, plunder a helmet, which glints in the starlight and gives them away. Then, Nisus gets carried away and tries to rescue or revenge Euryalus, instead of carrying on with his mission to Aeneas, and he gets killed too.

- Numanus taunts the Trojans (lines 679-706 in Fagles), bravely at first but then just going on too long, which annoys Ascanius, who kills him.

- Pandarus and Bitias open the gates of the Trojan camp and let the enemy in (why - in order to get at them more easily?); they are killed by Turnus.

- Turnus is so overheated with his killing spree that he doesn’t pay any attention to what is happening, and misses his chance to get his troops into the Trojan camp and press the advantage (lines 854-857). He doesn’t get killed, but he does miss the chance for a quick win.

It seems like the main (only) point of this war, and of Book IX is to give men a chance to be brave and heroic. Ascanius gets his first taste of battle, and is praised by Apollo. When Euryalus and Nisus volunteer for their mission, they are praised highly, and promised a huge reward. Turnus is hugely brave, even if a bit stupid, when he charges around the camp on his own.

At the end of Book IX, it seems clear to me that we are heading for a direct confrontation between Turnus and Aeneas – so far, they’ve been deliberately kept apart by Vergil, and both have now been shown to be very brave, strong and fearless leaders, protected and helped by gods, and a bit too headstrong for their own (and their peoples’) good.

This book was for me a deja vu moment from the Trojan war. The same people surrounded and trapped inside their perimeter. Could be why Nisus and Euryalus just had to leave and that they hoped to have a different outcome than the last time.
--BJ

Yes, you're right - I didn't really think of that before. So when Pandarus and Bitias open the gates, it's kind of like a flashback to the letting in of the Trojan Horse.

Books 7-8 have been challenging for me. I am not a fan of battle descriptions in any age. It's not really the blood and gore so much as the planning and strategy and chest beating...

Update - I just finished book 8. I did like the last part with the description of how the prophecies regarding Rome were put all over the armor Venus had made for Aeneas. Very easy to "see" as it is described. I like how Virgil is shamelessly buttering up the leadership...
I'm assuming I'm up for more carnage etc. in book 9. Off I go.

more carnage.... yes, I'm afraid you are! But it's such beautiful carnage.....

I have read The Aeneid many times in different translations, and for a long time I most loved Robert Fitzgerald's, but once Fagles came along, all others seemed a little stiff and less vibrant, sinewy and supple.

Gorgeous stuff.

I finished the whole thing today. I got through book IX and decided that I needed to just keep going. I didn't want to interrupt the flow of the battle.

#180 - I was absolutely amazed at the detail. Virgil treats each of the generals as extremely important and shares information about each one. It was clear to me that Aeneas and Turnus were being kept separate in order to build up to a grand show-down in the end (only it takes another book or two to get it done).

I was impressed by Camilla's story, and that she pretty much gets a book all to herself. Since I'm only a dabbler in Roman history, I am curious. Is Camilla very important to Rome's history or legends? It seems that in practice, Romans were not super encouraging to their women in terms of being out in the community politically or especially in the army.

Hi all. I've not weighed in up till now because I'm way behind most of you, having only just reached Book VI - which means I've only read up to msg141 on this thread. I thought I'd go ahead and pipe up now though - before you all forget what I'm referring to when I comment on old messages! Apologies in advance for going over old ground, or reiterating anything I haven't got to yet!

#91 Book IV, sibyx "Of note: Dido does not accept her ‘fate’ whatever that was, but kills herself instead. However, despite this transgression, perhaps because she knows she manipulated her, Juno takes pity on her and sends Iris to cut a lock of her hair so she can go to Hades."

I found this a very interesting comment as I hadn't thought about things this way. Fate is a concept I really dislike, so it is a relief to me seeing someone taking their fate into their own hands rather than just doing what she is told by the Gods, even out of her mind with sorrow and however irresponsible (as Queen) her decision is.

#94 Book IV, Scaifea "The breakup scene is one of the most realistic in the history of literature, I believe. I really believe that Vergil must have went through a bad breakup at some point because he sure knows how awful they can be. Dido going through all the usual, very human, things to say, including Don't you love me anymore? and Aeneas' classic reaction, which is to stand there with him mouth open, dazed look on his face, not really knowing what to say."

I had exactly the same thought. In fact the main thing going through my mind as I've been working my way through this was how believable the characters are - even the Gods to some degree. It wasn't something I expected at all, having read mostly summaries of the myths rather than the actual telling of them. Somehow Virgil brings a humanity to what is a fairly extreme story.

#101 (Book I), cmt "One thing that strikes me is how theatrical it is - in Book 1 I was giggling at the picture of Aeneas covered in mist or fog so that he couldn't be seen at Dido's court. I could imagine it on a stage."

This was the other main thing going through my mind. Perhaps because I saw an adaptation of Marlowe's Dido, Queen of Carthage: A Tragedy last year. It was a truly terrible production (my parents saw the same run and actually walked out before the second half, as I very nearly did). Despite this, the play was running through my mind the whole way through Books III & IV

#102 sibyx "I keep trying to remember that this epic is written to be recited to an audience in a dramatic way, so of course there are moments of comic relief"

Very good point and something that really struck me in Book II - how wonderfully exciting the storm must be when read out loud by a good orator. I keep thinking I should get a recording - #129 Janet, if you haven't already, (sorry!) you'll have to let us know how Simon Callow does (I completely agree with you - he's a wonderful actor).

I'm not very good at reading any poetry (hence my slowness), but the one thing that transforms it for me is when it is read aloud by someone who is good. All poetry should be read aloud first. ;o)

#105 scaifea - thank you for the background on Anchises and Venus - I had been wondering!

#106 JanetinLondon, re the use of the past tense to signal changes in the action.
#115 scaifea, re the nods to Homer (in particular Odysseus' helmsman).
#120 scaifea, the book reference.
#128 scaifea, to keep an eye on Aeneas leaving the Underworld.

You see this is why group reads can be so fantastic - I just would not have known these things otherwise and they really do make a difference to my enjoyment. Thank you everyone!

#138 nittnut "LOL - So gender-tipped. I am thinking about all the cow pies and that probably the women were having to deal with that and the laundry, although it appears (fortunately?) that the games did not require attire. Ooh a rhyme. So at least there was no nasty, sweaty gym gear, but there were nasty sweaty men. And cattle. No wonder they were easily led in the direction of burning boats." - chortle ;o)

Right, I'm going to get on with Book VI now, which I've been looking forward to the most - this is the bit that I already knew bits of, having studied some parts in the Latin at school (mostly only to translate I'm afraid). It's been over 15 years now though, so I don't know how much I'll remember, other than "The doors to gloomy Dis", which always stuck in my memory. Particularly as there is a town in Norfolk (not far from where I live) called Diss. It always makes me chuckle.

I want to hear more about Aeneas being the flawed hero and how we see in the end that he hasn't really grown. I also don't want to spoil for those who have not finished. Just saying...

# 190 - So that I don't forget later, just want to say now that Simon Callow reads it very well indeed. Every word is clearly articulated, and I have only fallen asleep once (I usually fall asleep the minute I put on a CD of any spoken word, so this is a real achievement!). I am finding that if I listen to him read it first, then read it to myself, I understand it a lot better than if I do it the other way around. But just listening isn't quite enough, certainly not if I want to be able to make any comments.

#188 - I was surprised and impressed by the Camilla story, too. I don't know a huge amount of Roman history, but I have never heard of her before. It must have been nice for any girls listening to the story to have a female military character, not just Dido and loads of mostly unnamed wives and mothers. (Did girls get to listen?)

I have just listened to Book XI, will read it tomorrow and post my thoughts on Book X tonight and Book XI maybe Wednesday. Then I aim to finish this weekend latest.

#192 Thank you! I shall investigate...

I've been avoiding the thread out of guilt at the fact that I have not been reading due to LIFE intervening, but what a silly I am! What marvelous posts I have found today!

I am mired in Book 8, but hope that things will sort out enough later this week to make attentive reading possible again. The Simon Callow sounds like a must.

In the past I was somewhat obsessed with 'The Villa of the Mysteries' at Pompeii where, apparently, women of 'good family' went to be initiated in the Eleusinian Mysteries. From my reading about this I gathered, I hope correctly, that women were educated up to a point (menses basically), and that wives of the land-owners and other toffs were cultivated people. Women of that class did have some rights and privileges, especially widows who could own property and carry on husband's business whatever it was. I am sure women would have listened and I do think Virgil is careful to keep them in mind as part of his audience. The slaves/servants of these families would also, probably, be lucky enough to hear recitations or parts of them.

Now I am feeling heartened and excited to get back into it! Thank you all.

Book VI - quote of the book (for me) so far: Charon describing Cerberus as a "poor trembling creature"! ;o)

...also finding the almost hysterical image of the Sybil very funny...

#194 - Thanks for info on female listeners.

As for why the Camilla episode is included, in addition to just giving the girls a heroine, my husband reminded me that Vergil is trying, to an extent, to parallel both the Odyssey and the Iliad, (in reverse order, so we are into Iliad territory now we are in the second half of the Aeneid), and that the Iliad has an "amazon" as well - Penthesilea. She, though, is on the Trojan's side, unlike Camilla, because the Aeneid is the reverse of Homer, i.e. from the other point of view, so lots of things are "reversed".

All of that makes perfect sense to me.

I am feeling very contented as I had the chance and the state of mind this afternoon to finish Book 8. Here are the high points, in this example of pure poetry, Virgil and Fagles together: .." the Trojan hero heaved in a churning sea of anguish,/ his thoughts racing, here, there, probing his options,/ shifting to this plan, that - as quick as flickering light / thrown off by water in bronze bowls reflects the sun/ or radiant moon... it goes on, but that gives you some idea.
And this gave me a frisson for some reason: Meanwhile/ the evening is coming closer, wheeling down the sky and/ now the priests advance. Potitius in the lead,/robed in animal skins the old accustomed way/ and bearing torches..... I could see it, feel it, hear it, smell it.....wow.

I loved the interaction between Hephaestus and Venus, The goddess threw her snow-white arms around him/ as he held back, caressing him here and there,/and suddenly he caught fire-the same old story,/the flame he knew by heart...."

Aeneas looking at the shield: he knows nothing of these events but takes delight/..."

correcting spelling.... sigh....

#196 I also think that makes total sense about it being Homer in reverse. I sensed it but never thought about how it was all planned out that way! I am so glad you mentioned that.

Nice quotes, sibyx!
--BJ

#197 - those are good quotes. There's just so much of it that sounds so good (now I am getting interested in knowing how other translations sound - no no I can't go there). I especially like the one about the shield - that's how I felt, too, not just about the shield, but lots of references throughout - know nothing of the events but take delight.

Book X

This book has a lot of good scenes in it – the gods discussing the war, the sea nymphs going to help Aeneas, epic battle scenes, lots of little vignettes of heroic and (very) gory deaths, Juno spiriting Turnus away. But a big theme seems to me to be fathers and sons.

Aeneas is a sort of surrogate father to Pallas (whose own father, Evander, is too old to join the battle). So when Turnus kills Pallas, Aeneas goes berserk, becoming a killing machine, ignoring prayers and please for mercy. This must be partly because he feels guilty at not protecting Pallas better in this, Pallas’ first battle.

Aeneas comes up against Mezentius, one of the enemy’s main leaders, and wounds him. He goes in for the kill, but Lausus, Mezentius’ son, gets in front of his father, and Aeneas kills him instead. Then Aeneas seems to realize how insane he’s been, and just stops. Maybe he sees in Lausus the image of Pallas, or of his own son, Ascanius.

Mezentius, meanwhile, feels guilty for letting his son die in his place, and goes back to the battle, I think knowing he is too weak and will be killed. He attacks Aeneas, but can’t quite get to him, and the book ends with his death.

I did wonder what Ascanius made of all this. Did he wonder whether Aeneas loved Pallas more than him, seeing his extreme reaction? Was he jealous? Or did he feel proud that he, Ascanius, was left in charge of the fort when Aeneas sailed off to get reinforcements?

The other thing I liked in this book was the neat way Vergil had Juno remove Turnus from the battle, even though the gods had agreed not to help anyone that day, so that the main Aeneas v. Turnus match-up didn’t have to happen just yet.

I thought the death of Pallas was too tragic! I think Aeneas felt responsible for Pallas, the son of the man who is willing to help him, that he let Evander down in an unforgivable way. And the tension is building toward the showdown in the last book.
--BJ

I agree, the death of Pallas was really sad. I felt responsible for Pallas...

197 - great quotes! I also liked the part with Venus and Hephaestus, and I thought it was interesting, way after the fact, that he said he would have helped Troy. Really?

They do 'feel' like a real long-time couple, don't they? Their 'history' is there behind every word. There's some kind of name for doing that -- saying you woulda done it, after it's all done.

I just got home from an all-day conference on Classical Education at UC Boulder. It was fantastic. My brain is full to bursting. One of our keynote speakers was Dr. Kopff, who wroteThe Devil Knows Latin. I thought maybe one of you had mentioned it a while ago. He was both informative and amusing.
Anyway, lots of cheer leading for learning Latin and studying the classics. Good fun.

Book XI

I really liked Book XI. After the heavier battles scenes, it was nice to have a quieter interlude, with different kinds of stories in it.

I liked the way both sides were happy to have a truce to bury their dead. This is a way of showing respect, and I guess allows both parties to start the process of being able to live together again in peace eventually. I thought it was interesting that the Trojans have a clear, simple approach to burying their dead, with rows of funeral pyres along the beach, while the Italians adopt a number of approaches – pyres, burials in the ground, some taken away to be buried (presumably back to their homes). I know this was partly because most of the Italians were fairly local, and from lots of different cities, while most of the Trojans were, well, Trojans, with no home to go back to, but it also made me feel that the Trojans were much more united in their purpose compared with the Italians, who seem quite reluctant allies.

That feeling was confirmed in the “council of war”, where the different Italian leaders gave different views of how to proceed. This seemed very realistic to me, in contrast to some of the more unrealistic/fairy tale battle scenes. The speeches were great, and I loved how Drances was so rude about Turnus, blaming him for everything, although Turnus has in fact been pretty brave so far. They never do come to an agreement, but have to start fighting again whether they like it or not.

Then we have the Camilla section. I felt like this was a whole separate story, very enjoyable, but not really essential to the plot. This is by no means a criticism, but more of a compliment to Vergil’s ability to keep an audience interested, and his desire to tell a good story (and, I guess, to invite comparisons with Homer).

Camilla’s death leads to the Italian retreat, and I thought the whole bit where the gates are shut against them, and they fight to the death under the walls of their own city, with their mothers throwing things down from above, was the saddest and most tragic part of the whole story so far.

When Turnus hears of the imminent defeat, he rushes back to the city, abandoning his plan to ambush Aeneas. I thought this was odd, especially as two minutes later Aeneas does come along, and Turnus could have had him. But Turnus does seem a less than intelligent leader. Something similar happened earlier (Book IX), when he was inside the Trojan camp and didn’t think of opening the way for his troops to get in. He’s brave, but not brilliant.

Alongside all these interesting events, the whole book also felt like a build up to the big climax, which everyone knows is coming. Aeneas’ guilt over Pallas’ death is still there – he can’t even bring himself to go see Evander in person. And Evander sends him back a message more or less telling him he is obligated to kill Turnus for revenge. Turnus, for his part, is the main Italian arguing for the war to continue. He is prepared to meet Aeneas face to face if that’s what it will take. I got the feeling he just liked fighting. Vergil’s little trick of having the two armies almost meet at the end of the book is clever, I think, because it adds to the tension. They can see each other, but it gets dark, so they can’t fight, and the book ends with a real feeling of anticipation, for the soldiers and for the reader. I can’t wait for the climax.

#205:
"Alongside all these interesting events, the whole book also felt like a build up to the big climax, which everyone knows it coming."

That is exactly what I thought, too. At this point, I was so ready for the showdown that I could not put the book down.
--BJ

*Slinks by*

But I can't resist saying that the posts of all of you who have kept on are a great help to spurring me to make a space for it. I've made a bit of the problem for myself because I've found it works much much better to read it aloud, slowly..... it keeps me savoring things and letting the imagery build, but I can't always get that space these days.

I have started Book 9 .... and get that feeling of things starting to rev up.

I'm slinking by too. I'm still in Book 7, but got most of it read this morning at 5.30 - my best Aeneid reading time has turned out to be really early before the kids wake up, sitting with a cup of coffee and reading it slowly in my head. It really doesn't work very well when I get distracted.

Janet, I've just read your post on Book 7 - way back at #149 - and really enjoyed it. I had the same feeling of how badly the women were portrayed, and how wonderful it'd be to have your Dad have a dream that you should be handed over to some other guy instead of the local boy. It felt like one long stream of difficult or insane women.

There are so many nuances that I'm missing with the gods - I can tell I'll be looking for reading recommendations on all the mythology, because I have my finger in the intro and the notes and the list of characters all the time.

I'll be back in, um, about 2 weeks with another 20 lines read.

"one long stream of difficult or insane woment" - I know, I know. Maybe Vergil had had some "issues"?!

#206 - BJ, did you really move straight on to Book XII? I'm impressed. I've tried to read a whole book in one sitting, but never ever had the energy to move on to another one!

My reading of it accelerated as I headed toward the big showdown. I just couldn't stop. That fact surprised me. But I know that I don't get as much out of the book as everyone else does.
--BJ

On the contrary BJ -- Virgil had you captivated! He would be delighted, I am sure.

It is my belief that women were all pretty much insane most of the time until modern health measures changed our lot which was pretty pitiful. Interested? I recommend the work of Susan Hrdy.

I finished Book IX today --

Note the mention of the Ganges c. line 35. The very mention shows that Virgil expected his audience to have some sophisticated knowledge of geography, no?

Virgil develops early on Turnus as a wolf stalking sheep, frustrated.

When Nisus gets his very bad idea he says to his buddy "Euryalus/...do the gods light this fire in our hearts/or does each man's mad desire become his god?" Wow!!!!!

Virgil makes clear from the start what a very bad idea this is -- prepares us. Which he doesn't always do. Some deaths come as surprises. Iulus 'gives them many messages to carry to his father./But the winds scatter them all, all useless,/fling them into the clouds.'

The two succumb to rage and greed and are discovered, caught and killed. While this next is a bit over the top, it totally works somehow: Of Euryales, Virgil writes '...He writhes in death/as blood flows over his shapely limbs, his neck droops/sinking over a shoulder, limp as a crimson flower/cut off by a passing plow, that droops as it dies/or frail as poppies, their necks weary, bending their heads when a sudden shower weighs them down."

The mother finds out and goes berserk -- and all the men succumb to her grief and start crying themselves 'a spasm of sorrow/went throbbing through them all... ' Virgil here, describes, and does not offer any judgement, which in itself, is a judgement.

And then the battle begins and blood flows --

A magnificent ending as the cornered Turnus leaps off the battlements into the Tiber,'... and Tiber/swept him intop its yellow tide, catching him as he came, then bore him up in its soothing waves and bathing away the carnage, gave the elated fighter back to his friends."

typo clean up!!

BJ - I agree with Sib. What Vergil wanted was to interest and excite his audience, and it worked for you. I just felt like writing about it because it was a group read - it's unlikely I got "more" out of it, just wrote more down.

Sib, your comments make me want to go back to Book IX again - it was so dramatic.

Anyway, ta da! I am finished. Here are my thoughts on Book XII:

Book XII

So, finally, I have read Book XII and finished The Aeneid. The story of Book XII is pretty simple – the armies initially agree to end the war by a one-to-one battle between Aeneas and Turnus. The Latins, even though they know Turnus is likely to lose, just want peace. Terms are agreed which mean that no matter what happens, the way is paved for the two sides to live together peacefully afterwards. All very civilized, very rational. Vergil could have just jumped straight to the duel and been done with it. But he added a few “interruptions” to keep it interesting and to build the tension.

I thought, too, that quite a few of the scenes in this Book were written to show, yet again, how emotions prevent us from acting as we (humans and gods both) know we should, as a lead up to the final scene. For example:
- The priest, Tolumnius, reacts emotionally to the omen sent by Juturna, believing it signifies victory, and encourages the Italians to start fighting again, breaking the truce.
- Just as Aeneas nearly convinces everyone to calm down and revert to the duel plan, an unknown Rutulian, presumably someone who can’t stand the thought of losing, cheats, wounding Aeneas. I think it’s really interesting that Vergil doesn’t say who that was, after telling us the names of so many insignificant soldiers previously.
- Then we have Aeneas’ treatment by Iapyx, helped by Venus, Juno’s attempts, via Juturna, first to stir up general battle, later to remove Turnus from the field, Venus sending omens of death to scare Turnus, and Juturna returning Turnus’ sword. The gods are supposed to be staying neutral, but Juno and Venus just can’t help themselves.

Turnus, of course, has been lead by his emotions throughout, but oddly, I thought he was the one who acted here, in the end, based more on ration – he knows he will lose, he is scared, but he knows he has to fight Aeneas to stop the war and save the people.

Anyway, the duel finally happens, it’s all very exciting, and the story comes to its end. Aeneas defeats Turnus, the war is over, everyone can get on with their lives. Aeneas has no need to kill Turnus (except that Vergil can’t leave his listeners without closure, wondering “what did Turnus do next?”). Yet, as he, more than anyone, is a victim of his emotions (his “tragic flaw”), when he sees that Turnus is wearing Pallas’ belt, he can’t stop himself, and he does kill him.

So the story comes to its conclusion. Aeneas, the somewhat reluctant hero of the Trojans, seemed as if he was going to mature into a wise ruler of the new race of combined Trojans and Italians. But he doesn’t, quite. He never fully masters his emotions. The terms of the peace treaty don’t make him king. Jove agrees with Juno that the Trojans should be subsumed into the Italians, not the other way around. To some extent, this seems an unsatisfactory ending to a modern reader (well, to me, anyway) – he fails after all that story, to achieve what he set out to do (well, he does, of course, found Rome, but no achievement in his own lifetime). I imagine, though, that contemporary audiences were happy with this ending (and I know that Amber/scaifea loves Aeneas for his human flaws!).

The Roman culture, with its multiple, fallible gods, seems to have understood and accepted that humans are flawed, sometimes slaves to their emotions. This is very different from today, when most people believe in a single, infallible god, and when our society and laws try to pretend everyone can and should be perfectly rational, reasonable and “good” all the time. We certainly expect this of our heroes, and are constantly disappointed when they don’t live up to it. I tried hard to see the ending of the book, and the character of Aeneas, as the Romans would have, but was only partly successful – I just couldn’t escape completely my own cultural upbringing.

In the end, I’m very glad I read this. I don’t think I ever would have gotten around to it without this Group Read, so I would like to thank everyone else who was doing it, even those who didn’t post much – I knew you were there and it kept me going!

Thank you, Janet. Your comments throughout have considerably enriched my own reading and thinking about this story.

Did I understand correctly from the intro that Virgil died before the Aeneid was actually complete? If so, might Virgil have gone beyond that abrupt, violent endind?

Can't find a superlative to thank you for your last round-up, Janet. - Esp reflections on the differences between Romans and ourselves.

Curiously, just this weekend, My bro and I were discussing TA and he says, 'Well the Romans liked to settle everything by just killing someone. They were quite casual about it.' So maybe Turnus had to go to tidy things up? He's studied far more classics than I have, so I'll take his word for it!

I know I will be seeking out more information on TA - Virgil did die before fully completing, and there is, I gather speculation about what he might have changed, eliminated or added.

Come back and visit when you can, Janet, to encourage the rest of us laggards!

Wow. Great comments. I have to say again how glad I am that I read this with all of you.

I hope this isn't too random, but I think I may have the right crowd for a couple of questions. I just attended a fascinating conference on Classical Education, and naturally there was a lot of cheer leading for learning Latin and a lot of discussion regarding the preparation a classical education gives for future learning. I wanted to ask you:

1. Who here was educated classically and/or learned Latin as a matter of course?
2. What are your opinions/feelings about a classical education vs. contemporary public education?
3. If there are teachers in the company - were you classically trained and where, and do you teach in a classical school? Pros and cons?

Go ahead and assume that I am using "classical" as a fairly general term. I realize there are different interpretations.

If you'd rather not hijack this thread to answer, please pm.

I just wanted to say that Book 12 was my favorite one. But then, I love action movies. I love the big showdown between the two big rivals. It was all much more exciting than I expected. I am so glad that this group formed. I read my copy of the book from about 1980. And even in an old translation, I loved it. Thanks, everyone, for all of your comments. If not for y'all, who knows when I ever would have reread this book.
--BJ

#217: I was educated 'classically' in Germany - my first foreign language was Latin which I studied for 9 school years and I also had 3 years of ancient Greek (is that called so in English?). For the first 4 years of Latin lessons I had a phantastic teacher, quite conservative and strict, but we felt that he really loved the old languages. He was the best teacher I ever had. Actually, we had to stand up when he came into the class room and had to greet him in Latin. He said 'Pueri et puellae - salvete!' and we had to answer 'Salve magister!' We loved it!

After those 4 years he was my Greek teacher for three more years. He was a real exception, the other teachers I had later didn't really care that much, there was no 'spark' in their lessons.

I am really glad I had this education, unfortunately I forgot most of it in the 20 years since I left school, as my professional life lead me into banking and IT. Reading the Aeneid brought back many dear memories.
Oh - and knowing Latin was really helpful for learning Italian, which is basically 'new-Latin'.

#219 9 yrs Latin and 3 yrs Greek! Wow.

My best friend in high school was from Germany, so I studied German. However, there are few people to speak German with here in the U.S. and I've forgotten quite a bit. I wish I'd had the opportunity to study Latin. I suppose I will study it with my children.

I went to a normal high school in a suburb of New York in the 70's and learned no Latin or Greek, nor studied any of the classical texts. Not in college either, although I did read Thucydides and Aristotle in a political science class. But my husband is a real classicist - he did Classics at Cambridge, and was certainly "fluent" in both Latin and Greek at that time, although he went to a local grammar school in England, not a fancy private school. He then became a Latin and Greek teacher for a while, then taught teachers, and now works in the British Museum. So naturally, along the years, I have picked up a lot of interesting stuff from him, and got interested in reading the books myself. I did try to learn a bit of Latin, but stopped because I didn't have enough time. I'd have to say I don't think his education was better than mine because of the strong emphasis on classics. It was just different. My children are having the same experience - one just finished at a grammar school, did both Latin and Greek, the other goes to a different school where they don't do anything classical at all. Again, different, not better. They both, however, learned at least a bit about both Ancient Greece and Rome in primary (grade) school. My view is that I do think it's important that people know something about these cultures, and what they contributed to our own philosophy, society, government, etc., but it's not necessarily important to study them in depth at school. It's possible to read these books as a thinking adult.

I was dithering on and then I remembered....heck I acted in a play about the massacre at Thermopylae when I was still in junior high school. By the end of high school I had read (in English) all principle Greek plays and poems ( inc. Iliad and Odyssey) as well as Plato's Republic as part of a solid grounding in basic western philosophy. Only one year of Latin but then I elected for French intensive. As a result though, my Roman education is lacking; though I have made that up on my own.

I taught myself enough ancient Greek to limp very slowly through a few lines here and there. Totally worth it, btw.

Short answer? Put a checkmark for me on the classical side.

Full disclosure: I was nothing but cannon fodder. Or rather, spear fodder. I remember I had one line whispering (loudly) with another soldier on 'the watch' in front of the curtain. Something like: Do you hear anything?

LOL Lucy. I wish I could see it...
I also read - in English - a lot of the same for western civ. in college. I am certainly glad I did. I am also lacking in the Roman side of things.

Janet, you are clearly a life long learner. I would say most here at LT are. I have, however, encountered many people who haven't read since college, who were stunned by our recent recreational read of The Aeneid. I am leaning toward the idea that a more classically geared curriculum may lead to life long learning. Interesting to have children at two different styles of schools. I am curious, if you don't mind, as to why.

Why my children are at 2 different schools - where I live, in London, we have two kinds of secondary (high) schools in the public sector (as well as private schools, of course) - "normal" ones, where all the local kids go and a whole range of both academic and vocational subjects are taught, and grammar schools, more academic, and selective, with an exam to gain entrance. When my older daughter was ready to start, her dad and I (and she) thought she would do better with the grammar school. It was further away, and she wanted to get away from the kids she had been in primary school with. She's also very academic, and not interested at all in sports (the grammar school is quite small, and all girls, so the sports options are limited). So she passed the exam and went to the grammar school. My younger daughter, 3 years later, said she didn't want to go to the grammar school, but wanted to go to the local school. Although I'm fairly sure she would have passed the exam, she was right - she's very athletic, and she has lots of local friends she would have left behind. So off she went to the local Comprehensive school. Each has done very well at her respective school, and each probably wouldn't have enjoyed the other's so much.

I still think it's the quality of the teaching that counts, not the subjects. I am absolutely sure my younger, non-classically educated, daughter will be a life-long learner.

I agree - the quality of teaching is the main thing. However, I think you and your husband may have more to do with the life-long learning than school.

Amazing how different schools fit different kids. It's nice to have a choice. We are gaining choices here, but it is difficult. I'm not wishing to offend any members of teachers unions, but in our particular district, the teachers union is extremely resistant to the idea that additional options in terms of curriculum, etc. will benefit a wider range of students. We have good schools and many really excellent teachers - that is not the problem.

.......Quietly creeping into the classroom hoping that the teacher won't notice I was gone..... I am slowly reading Chapter 11 and just feel the need to ask: How many infants get tied to a spear and thrown across a river? I wish Camilla was more than a cameo. But I am also sort of fascinated that Virgil perceived a 'need' narratively to put in a woman warrior. Sure he is trying to slow down the narrative to make the clash of Turnus and Aeneas all the more thrilling due to the delay, but ... I have no huge insights, just an arresting thought that this aspect of women - that a certain number really are not homebodies - is acknowledged as a 'part' of the story.

Wow, Sib, that sounds like a great Trivia question: "In what classic text do infants get tied to a spear and thrown across the river?" Heh.

Yah -- that would stump them on Jeopardy!

Sib, I am so happy that you are finally able to finish this, or at least get close. I think one reason for Camilla is that he is trying to have parallels with Homer, who also has Amazons - Penthesilea, maybe? I dont have it with me (what, you mean, people go to the hospital without Homer?) Oh no wait, I do have an audio version of The Odyssey on my ipod.

Yes indeed, but then, why Penthesilea? It's a recognition of something about (some) women, don't you think? I find that interesting. Boadeicca (never could spell it), Joan of Arc - I'm sure there are quite a few more. I have one sister who is exactly this type btw, steeplechases and has no fear of anything. She would have gurgled happily as she was thrown tied to a spear over a river, thinking it jolly good fun.

Janet, are you in hospital?

Yes, I am still in hospital.

Wishing you a speedy recovery. God bless.
--BJ

I have, amazingly, finished Chapter 11. Besides the spear toss, I was quite taken with the description of the fight between Tarchon and Venulus -- "Swift as a golden eagle seizes/a snake and towers into the sky, talons knotted round it,/ claws clutching fast but the wounded serpent writhes/in its rippling coils, stiffens, scales bristling,/ hissing through its fangs as it rears its head...." Just amazing.

Camilla's death too, was a moment where everything slowed down and went quiet all around, physically immediate but filled with spirit -- the movie folks didn't invent that sort of thing with slo-mo and soulful music.

When I finish the poem I do intend to finish the intro and read the afterword both of which I've dipped in and out of.

I JUST THIS MINUTE FINISHED! June 21 to Aug 18. Almost three months.
I have some things to say about Book 12 and intend to finish the Intro and Post Script, so this is really just a bit of celebrating. I will say the last book felt very uneven -- some of the images, Turnus running around looking for a decent sword, while Aeneas tries to get his spear out of the olive stump.... were strangely humorous, or removed. Did anyone else have that feeling? I apologize if you mentioned it and I missed it.

I'll be back later! I am so pleased!

>236 sibylline:. Hooray! Congrats, Sib.

>233 JanetinLondon:. Janet, I've so enjoyed your comments on this thread even though I've been a non-reading lurker. I hope that you are soon out of the hospital and back in your home. All the best.

OK I am back for final round-up and gloating. I have read the intro and post-script -- a good way to 'book end' the experience. Rather than blather on, I would prefer to be succinct. Just make some general remarks and leave it there.

I was struck, throughout by the shifting of close focus on emotional matters (like the importance and implications of choice, which these folks have, unlike the Homeric heroes) and the sort of near pompous tooting of the Roman horn, the pax romana, the great achievement of Rome that lies ahead in the rule of law and so on. All this was addressed, to my relief, in the Intro and helps me to make sense of it -- Bernard Knox basically says, this is how The Aeneid is -- the close and distant interplay is what distinguishes it -- he also points out that Virgil adds a sense of 'history' of past and present and future having an interplay that is very different from the Greeks, a point I had noticed but not put in the foreground of my mind.

Of course, I preferred the emotional stuff, the close focus the most.... but without the historical context none of that would have made so much sense or had such an effect.

Aeneas choice, at the very end, and the abrupt end itself with Turnus' death, is something scholars, psychologists, sociologists etc can write about ad infinitum without any resolution. Aeneas makes the 'human' choice, in my view, and Virgil makes it clear that as much as he has evolved beyond even what he might ever expected of himself, he can't rise above the desire to avenge. He comes so close, but then.... not. Beautiful, tragic, true. How far, I wonder, have we evolved since then?

I was also touched by the last couple of pages of Knox's intro -- when he talks about his war experience in WWII -- I hope others read just those last few pages if nothing else of that intro. The kind of anecdote that makes the hair on the back of your neck rise up. In a good way.

So that's it, I'm done. Almost exactly three months, the entire summer, in fact, devoted to this read. Ciao!

Nice closing thoughts. Thanks for sharing them with us.

This was a wonderful read. I am so glad that I got to tag along. :) I think that I am going to send my copy to my brother. I think he would like it, too.
--BJ

Hooray for sibyx!

Yes, huzzah for finishing!

And I want to add a note of encouragement to those of you out there who are struggling. If I can do it, so can you!

Congratulations on finishing Lucy! I enjoyed your final comments.