Obscenity v Pornography

I just saw this quote and found it to be interesting.

“Obscenity is a cleansing process, whereas pornography only adds to the murk.”
—Henry Miller

Feel free to discuss.

Reminds me of Oscar Wilde's introduction to "The Picture of Dorian Gray", after the book was declared immoral and "full of dangerous paradoxes". He wrote that books are neither immoral nor moral, but either well written or poorly written, and that is all. : )

Anyone know how the defense functioned in Miller's obscenity trial?

Did they argue that the books, though obscene, had redeeming qualities? Or did they argue that the books did not count as obscene?

The defense cited another case that was decided at the same time: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobellis_v._Ohio

Along the same lines, although more to magazines, than books, this brought a smile to my face, after a deep sigh of bewilderment:

http://www.theweek.com/article/index/105766/Australias_small_breast_ban

Funny this topic coming up, because this is exactly what I've struggled with in my reading this past month or so. In the obscenity corner of my reading is Push by Sapphire, and it really does have that sense of cleansing and healing, whereas Any Given Doomsday and The Blue Notebook had a real porny feel to them. I know with The Blue Notebook it was the lack of emotion from the m.c. who was also the narrator that gave it a feeling of being Gorean kiddie snuff porn.

I don't believe that Any Given Doomsday is good enough to be pornography.

Robert

I haven't found a reasonable use for the word 'pornography' except as an expression of its user's dislike or embarrassment with the particular style or content of whatever work of erotic literature is being addressed. The word is (for me) more an expression of subjectivity than an objective descriptor.

'It turns me on, and I'd be happy to argue openly that this book is literature, so it's 'erotic literature'.

or

'It turns me on, but I keep it hidden from my neighbours, so it's 'pornography'.

This thread is confusing to me. Was Miller being deliberately perverse?

The OED definition of obscenity is actually rather more pejorative than that of pornography - basically, obscenity is offensive while pornography is arousing. Was Miller arguing that it is cleansing to be offended?

Actually, it seems to me that the way the word 'pornography' is commonly used is rather more pejorative than the dictionary has it. It seems to me that if you find it obscene you call it pornography, if you find it titillating or arousing you call it erotica. In that light, was Miller arguing that pornography is cleansing, as opposed to erotica the murk-maker?

Or was he just being a clever-dick, trying to shock for the sake of it?

>9 alaudacorax:
Miller is not a particularly coherent thinker and doesn't have a theory, exactly, but generally speaking, he's a product of his time and there is a strong puritannical undercurrent in his depictions of sex. It's still "dirty", even if it's "good dirty". The chapter on Miller in Kate Millett's Sexual Politics describes this well. It hasn't aged badly at all, which is unusual in discussions on this subject.

Ironically, the OP Miller quote on obscenity's "cleansing" role echoes the Judge Woolsey criterion in his ruling lifting the ban on Ulysses in the U.S., where he said that it was "emetic" and not "aphrodisiac". That's always made me scratch my head. So: if it makes me throw up, it's OK? Got it!

#10 So 'aphrodisiac' is the bad thing? Reminds me of the old saying we had in the UK - "Obscenity is whatever gives the judge an erection."

re 8 D.H. Lawrence, whose book "Lady Chatterer's Lover" was banned in the USA said: "Pornography is the attempt to insult sex, to do dirt on it". Erotic literature does not insult sex. On the contrary, it shows the beauty of it.

> 11 Love it. There was a case here in the USA where a judge was constantly masturbating during lawsuits. I think he was disbarred.

> 11 And Bertrand Russell said: “It is obvious that ‘obscenity’ is not a term capable of exact legal definition; in the practice of the courts, it means ‘anything that shocks the magistrate".

Back when the Hamilton County persecutor was going after votes by harassing Larry Flint he, Flint, mailed out a flyer titled “The True Obscenity” to ever address in the county. It was an argument that violence, not sex was obscene and featured photographs showing what people do to each other. He convinced me.

Many people wanted him charged again with distributing obscenity over the flyer but the Prosecutor pointed out that there was no law against distributing images of violence, only images of sex.

#13 - I've edited this three times trying for a suitably euphemistic expletive. I'm gobsmacked!!!

> #12 - 'Most erotic does insult sex.'

Can you amplify a bit, please, bookmonk? I'm having difficulty thinking how this might possibly be true. As far as I'm concerned, erotic thoughts and erotic arts, including litarature, are (I suspect universally) a glorification of sex, rather than an insult.

Where does the insult lie?

>17 CliffordDorset:

I'm embarrassed at my mistake of leaving out the word "NOT". Please see my new edit which is in total agreement with you.

Given the thread's title, I would like to know why I have to make a choice between the two?

>19 Jesse_wiedinmyer:

I reckon there's a fine line, if any, on this spectrum. And, I'm fairly sure, personal preference also plays a part

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37921114/ns/technology_and_science-tech_and_gadgets/... Uuumh!

“Obscenity is a cleansing process, whereas pornography only adds to the murk.”
—Henry Miller

So where would one place Sade on this spectrum?

22> “Obscenity is a cleansing process, whereas pornography only adds to the murk.”
—Henry Miller

The irony is that in the USA if you they can't use the charge of pornography to convict, they use the alternate, which is obscenity. In a recent case in the USA, a man was able to prove that he did not have pornography that was illegal, so the DA asked him how he thought he would fare in a courtroom when the same images were shown to a jury under the charge of obscenity. You can guess the outcome.

>23 K.J.:

Or in a country like Afghanistan.

>22 Phocion: (Phocion)

Don' know. But here's an interesting quote from Wikipedia:

Sade’s fiction has been tagged under many different titles, including pornography, Gothic, and baroque. Sade’s most famous books are often classified not as Gothic but as a libertine novel, and include the novels Justine, Juliette, The 120 Days of Sodom, and Philosophy in the Bedroom. These works challenge perceptions of sexuality, religion, law, age, and gender in ways that Sade would argue are incompatible with the supernatural.