Order of the Phoenix discussion Chapters 29-33

Okay, so the chapters for this week were:

29: Career(s) Advice
30: Grawp
31: OWLs
32: Out of the Fire
33: Fight & Flight

I actually don't have a lot of notes this week. I kind of think that these chapters are wrapping up subplots to make room for the finale (I know that's the wrong word but I can't think of the right word right now).

Chapter 29:

1. I find it interesting that Harry seems to have more sympathy for Snape than for Malfoy.

2. This small scene between Harry & Ginny (in the library) is important for HBP.

3. Some of the possible careers are hilarious! "So you think you have what it takes to train security trolls!"

4. Harry's career meeting is one of my favorite McG moments!

5. I think I would have broken into Umbridge's office just so Hermione didn't think she could boss me around!

6. I really want to understand how floo posder works. If it transports your entire physical body from place to place, I don't understand how you can stick your head in it and not simply be beheaded. It just doesn't compute in my mind!

7. It would have been nice if Sirius had said something like "Why didn't you use the mirror to call me Harry?" Grrrrr....

8. All Lupin & Sirius do is tell Harry "There's nothing more important than you learning Occlumency." TELL HIM WHY!!!!! Idiots.

9. Peeves makes me teary when he salutes the twins. (You may all begin mocking me now!)

10. I'm curious, who do you think had a better exit, the Twins or DD?

Chapter 30:

1. It's somewhat surprising that Hagrid is intuitive enough to know he'll get the sack soon.

2. Anyone else ever wonder about the logistics of making a half giant?

3. Are there female Centaurs? How do they have foals?

Chapter 31:

1. I'm pretty sure Percy got his OWL results before the end of term in SS/PS, I wonder why the change.

2. I love the flashback to book 1 with the Wingardium Leviosa question, it really helps the movie in my head.

3. Color change is a charm here in their OWLs, they color change rats (or some furry animal). How is that so different from changing their eyebrow color, which is 6th year transfiguation.

4. How is Hannah in her Transfiguation practical at the same time as Harry? Did they do it alpha by first names this time?

5. The scene of Hagreids' arrest is one of my favorites, it is the moment I realized just how much I love McG!

Chapter 32:

1. Harry does have a saving people thing, it's interesting to see this as both a good thing and a bad thing, generally one thinks that it would be a good thing. Ultimately though I wonder, without his saving people thing, would he have been able to do what he needed to do in DH? I don't think so, so while it leads to the death of a loved one in this book, it turns out to be Harry's most important quality.

2. Hard to believe Hermione at least doesn't think of Snape when Harry claims there's no one in the Order left at Hogwarts.

3. I truly don't understand why Umbridge isn't a Death Eater, she seems perfectly suited for it. Do you think she just doesn't want the Mark? She doesn't mind markins other people.

4. Hermione is a genius. (Are you getting tired of me saying that?)

Chapter 33:

1. I was so disappointed that they kept the Centaurs like SS/PS in the movie. I think its very obvious from JKR's descriptions that the all look different, not like weird grey things. They can't say that it can't be done as described either, because the Centaurs in Narnia rocked!

2. A moment where Hermione is not smart! What a stupid thing to say to a Centaur!

3. I wish we could have seen the Inquistorial squad get it in the movie. I know we don't get to see it in the book, but it's an instance where I would have enjoyed an extra scene (and it would have given Dan a day off!)

4. Ginny, Neville and Luna's insistance that they come to make me cry (big surprise I know, I'll try to refrain from mentioning everytime I cry next week, it'll be a lot!)

5. How do Ginny and Luna know so much about Testrals? They're in fourth year and Hagrid said he saved them for OWL year. Did he just save them for Harry for OWL year and then show everyone else too? That doesn't seem right. We know from Harry watching him out of the window that he was teaching fourth years about unicorns, which matches the curriculum he had for Harry, so why would he show Thestrals early?

well Luna knew about Thestrals because she had seen death just like Neville and Harry, I think Ginny simply believed.

i loved McG interview with Harry! How she handles Umbridge is beautiful

Yes there are times when Hermoine makes stupid mistakes. Good to know she's human!

Umbridge doesn't have what it takes to be a death eater! She would NEVER take orders from someone else!

How do they know how to steer a thestral? Couldn't Ron & Ginny at least get their brooms?

#7 What I meant was that Luna and Ginny do a lot of the exposition of Thestrals "Hagrid says they have really good senses of direction". "More will come, you and Hermione are covered in blood, that's how Hagrid lures the Thestrals". I know that Luna has been able to see them since her first year but she references Hagrid, which means that he apparently taught them, which I just think is weird.

#9 They didn't have to steer, they just told the Thestral where they wanted to go and the Thestral took them there.

I think I've said it in other threads but I can't say it enough how important it is that Umbridge is not a death eater.

It is just as important that Harry have adversaries who think that they are right by any means necessary. JK gives that character trait in some measure to both Fudge and to Scrimgeour. I think it is one of the most brilliant things she doesn in the series to make it go beyond good and evil. In the world a great deal of harm is done by people who believe fervently in their own rightness at the expense of someone else.

About Thestrals. I think other students besides Harry and Hermione and Ron hang out with Hagrid. Luna seems the type to be haunting the Thestral paddock with Hagrid.

What I want to know is where the expensive and lengthy wizard graduate school is?

Oh I totally agree that it's great that JKR has people who are grey or evil and not Death Eaters...I love the line "The world isn't divided into good people and Death Eaters." It just seems that Umbridge gravitates to power and would therefore be quite within her character to join Voldy, especially since she seemingly agrees with his ideals. I think it would have been interesting to show someone we know (other than Malfoy) who joins up the second time around and she seems to be a reasonable choice. Plus then she might have been at the Battle of Hogwarts and might have died, which would have made me happy. I understand all the real life and literary reasons for leaving her alive and what it teaches kids, but other bad people were left alive as well. She still had plenty of people at the Ministry who weren't so great. (Percy, Fudge, Scrimgeour and other people I know were mentioned in DH but it's been too long since I read it to remember there names.) This is all just IMO though and I don't expect anyone to agree with me.

I can maybe buy Luna hanging around the Thestrals with Hagrid, but Ginny? She doesn't seem particularly interested in Creatures, so she if she hung out with Hagrid I think it would be in the same way that HH&R do. (That's my new abbreviation, I'm getting sick of writing their names all the time.)

No bib, Umbridge is not the type to put herself in danger, thats why she isn't a death eater, that and the fact as I said before that she won't take orders from anyone.

I just want to say as a general comment that a lot of what they did to tighten things up in the movie really works for me. Reading the book again, I'm annoyed by how much it is padded with extraneous detail. Some of it is fun (MacGonagall--I love everything she does!) and some is just unecessary (Marietta).

Also, I thought the twins' exit was great in the movie. The fireworks and placards all falling and the splintering glass rocked. (Foreshadows the spiintering in the finale).

Still, a big mistake they left out the quidditch. It's important for Ron's character development. HBP SPOILER - It's why he has the courage, and the social clout, to get together with Lavender.

I love the bit where Ron messes up his hair like James.

I agree with everything you say about the movie lg. Although I must say I think I enjoy the Twins exit in the book more, I didn't hate what they did in the movie.

Yes, poor Rupert, he was really looking forward to the Quiddich. Here's hoping they have it in HBP, it's their last chance!

I can't believe I just realized this, but perhaps the Ron/Hermoine feud mirrors the Lily/James relationship. It would be easy to pick a random moment between R&H, view it out of context in a pensieve and think Hermione hates Ron, especially if he were being particularly clueless.

Maybe Umbridge isn't a DE because even they can't stand her!

Sorry bib. I hope you don't feel bad. I didn't think anything in this thread was at all heated argument. Umbridge (and believe me I loathe the character) is malicious and cruel but not deliberately choosing to murder people

Very funny LG.

Re: the movieYay for the twins but I wanted to see the complicity of the teachers a bit more and the castle as a swamp.

edited to fix my appalling typing

I dunno, Maren, sending dementors after children....does she expect harry to survive that?

Ah that's true LG. We found that out later though didn't we? I suppose that is the political way send someone else to do the dirty work rather than murder someone yourself.

#17 That's an excellent point lg!

#18 LOL, that I could definitely believe!

#19 Not to worry Mar, it wasn't the debate that upset me. I spent a long time in the car trying to decide whether I should say why I was upset or not. If I was face to face with everyone I totally would because I don't like to fester, but in this medium, I wouldn't want anyone to get offended in response to what I have to say. I'm still debating with myself whether to explain why my feelings were hurt or not.

#19-21 What made me think the DE thing as I was reading how excited Umbridge is to perform the Cruciatus Curse.

Umbridge may be like a death-eater but she would never join them. Her thing is law-and-order and Voldy is the opposite of law-and-order. As an analogy what if guy in charge of Abu Ghraib was as despicable as Umbridge. He would still hate Bin Ladin and never join him. Because his loyalties lie with the US and Bush, and Umbidge's loyalty lies with the Ministry of Magic and Fudge.

I'm sorry but,

1) You aren't being attacked.
2) It's unfair of you to try to shut down the whole discussion because of the way you feel, and
3) if your mental state is such that you cannot stand a discussion at this time then perhaps it would be better if you didn't read it until such time as you are feeling better.

I hope you feel better soon.

I just wanted to quickly apologize to everyone for my over-reactions yesterday. I have been struggling with being overly sensitive all my life and yesterday was a rough day for me. In the future, I'll try to work harder on "walking away" when I'm upset. I know I screwed up the tone of this discussion and that's what I feel the worst about. Sorry again, carry on! I'm hoping foggi will post her notes soon too and we'll have more than my feeble notes to discuss! I love you all!

Oh dear I just wrote a nice post and the rampaging elephants came and took it.

I don't believe in people being too sensitive and although HE does a great job of being nice and supportive it is important to remember to be polite and respectful. There is no tone of voice with posts so it can become confusing.

I value everyone's contributions especially your very thorough notes bib.

I was just going to second the thoughts on Neville, Luna and Ginny insisting on coming along. Not only does it break the Harry going it along mode or the trio going it alone I think it is nice that the aparent misfits start finding their paths. I am already thinking ahead to Luna's room and choking up.

I think that's one of the things I love most about this book (how many things have I said that about now?!) is the ever widening circle of people Harry can trust, so that by the end there are many people ready to fight for/with him. It is a nich justaposition to go from the climax (that's the word I was looking for yesterday!) of GoF where Harry is very alone to this one where he ends up surrounded by people, especially once various members of the Order show up!

Umbridge may have never been a death eater, but she did join in the Voldemort controlled Ministry persecution of Muggle-borns. (My spell check didn't like "borns" but thought "muggle" was okay?!?*)

As for the best exits, Dumbledore's was great, but the twins' rocked. The movie version was good, but the book was better.

I never got a chance to get on this thread yesterday. I am glad everything is okay.

*I looked it up:
muggle |ˈməgəl| (also Muggle)
noun noun informal
an unimaginative or boring person: : this video game won't appeal to muggles.
ORIGIN with allusion to the meaning ‘nonwizard’ (that is, ‘ordinary human’ ) in J. K. Rowling's Harry Potter books.

cool! JKR created a new word!

All right! I am, for the moment, caught up! I finished reading these chapters last night, but was too tired to post. The only one I took serious notes on was chapter 29, though. Sorry -- this was a crazy week, and next week is shaping up to be just as bad, though I'm going to try to finish OotP today so I can participate on the discussion thread tomorrow.

Here are my Chapter 29 notes:

- I can understand Harry being upset about the behavior of James, Sirius, and Lupin, but to think that Lily really 'hated' James seems a bit of a stretch to me. Of course, Harry hasn't had the amount of life experience to see a lot of love/hate relationships -- he's still pretty clueless about Hermione and Ron, for that matter -- so I guess I can buy it. It just seems to me that, when I was about 12, I observed or participated in a lot of relationships where name-calling was the primary form of flirting. That struck me as what was going on with Lily and James -- I have no doubt that she was irritated with him, but she was irritated because she liked him, and that was the mode in which they operated. It was not the mode in which she and Sev operated, on the other hand, so him calling her 'mudblood' really was hurtful. But I suppose I can't blame Harry for not picking up on this! ;-)

- Madam Pince is such a stereotypical librarian. I wish the Hogwarts librarian could have been young and cool. I'd have loved to see someone with a personality like Tonks's in that role.

- This is where I really want to rant about Harry using the mirror. Sirius did imply that what he was giving Harry would give Harry a way to contact him. Here are my exact notes:

HE HAS THE MIRROR! Idiot. No need for subterfuge with fireplaces. He remembered Sirius gave him the knife -- why couldn't he remember that Sirius gave him the mirror?

I can't understand why he didn't even open the mirror. Wasn't he curious at all? Grrr. This irritates me beyond all reason and causes me to employ the CAPSLOCK OF RAGE.

- Speaking of the knife, it sounds like something you'd find at Borgin and Burke's, along with the Hand of Glory.

- Filch and his "Approval for Whipping" form -- a perfect picture of a corrupt bureaucracy: you can do anything if you have the right form for it. I was reminded of the Vogons in the Hitchhiker's Guide of the Galaxy.

maybe a knife is a lot cooler to remember then a mirror?

I agree that Lily may have subltly flirting with James but I also think that She was sticking up for her freind Severus, at least until he called her a bad name.

#32 -- I agree on the Lily/James point. She was both flirting with James and standing up for Sev, and Sev didn't like either fact (that she was flirting with another guy, or that she was seeing him in a position where he needed her to stand up for him).

I don't think Lily ever thought of Sev in a romantic way, but Sev obviously fell in love with her early on, i hope she never mislead him to think there was a chance?

#34 -- I doubt she ever intentionally misled him, but that didn't stop him from thinking he had chance. Hope springs eternal, alas.

34- When Snape met Lily, he called her a witch. Not a good way to start a relationship.

Is there a cure for Doublepost syndrome?

In HP-land being called a witch or a wizard aren't bad things. Do you mean that he called her a mudblood?

#37 - The easiest cure is to take an edit and hit submit. Of course, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, so avoid taking any backspaces after you submit the first time. :o)

Medical disclaimer: Avoid operating any heavy machinery until you see how editing affects you. Common side effects include nervousness, anxiety, heart palpitations, spelling errors, and lost posts. Ask your doctor if editing is right for you.

38 JJ - During the DH flashbacks he tells her she is a witch when they are on the playground. She doesn't take it well.

39 JP - As long as the side effects don't include long posts! Thanks Doc!

#40 -- Yeah, but she warms to the idea pretty quickly, and to him, when she realizes he doesn't mean it as an insult.

#38, 40, 41 - don't forget, Lily doesn't know anything about the magical world at that stage!