Current Catholic Issues 2 (2022)

Former pope Benedict admits making false claim to child sexual abuse inquiry (Guardian)

The former pope Benedict XVI has admitted providing false information to a German inquiry into clerical sexual abuse. Benedict, who resigned as the global leader of the Roman Catholic church in 2013, said on Monday that he had attended a meeting with local church officials in 1980 to discuss a suspected paedophile priest. He blamed a previous written statement to German investigators – in which he said he was absent from the meeting – on an editorial error. His admission comes four days after a report on the investigation claimed that Benedict had failed to take action against four priests accused of child sexual abuse when he was archbishop of Munich, a position the then cardinal, Josef Ratzinger, held between 1977 and 1982, and that his denial of being at the meeting in question lacked credibility...

Benedict XVI Confirms He Attended Disputed 1980 Meeting in Munich (National Catholic Register)

Pope emeritus Benedict XVI has apologized for mistakenly saying that he did not attend a disputed meeting in 1980 while serving as archbishop of Munich and Freising. In a statement published in the German Catholic weekly Die Tagepost on Jan. 24, the 94-year-old retired pope said that the mistake was the result of an editing error, reported CNA Deutsch, CNA’s German-language news partner. Benedict XVI has initially told investigators that he was not present at a meeting of archdiocesan officials on Jan. 15, 1980. The statement issued on Monday by Archbishop Georg Gänswein, Benedict XVI’s private secretary, said that the pope emeritus “would now like to make it clear that, contrary to what was stated during the hearing, he took part in the ordinariate meeting on Jan. 15, 1980... The statement to the contrary was therefore objectively incorrect,” he said. “He would like to emphasize that this was not done out of bad faith, but was the result of an error in the editing of his statement. He will explain how this came about in the pending statement. He is very sorry for this mistake and asks for this mistake to be excused”...

This will take him out of the fast tract for sainthood....JMJ....

Benedict makes world news for attending a meeting where a homosexual priest was discussed. The current occupier of St Peter's Chair in an early statement about abuse asked for total transparency. The faithful have the right to demand it of him. The fact of the matter is that Francis has not been transparent far from it. A fact is that Francis knew first hand of the horrendous crimes of "uncle Ted" in the summer of 2013 and covered for him and made him a trusted counselor not taking into account Benedict's sanction of Ted. Another trusted counselor Cardinal Maradiago a real beauty this guy is so confident regarding Francis's protection that he dismisses as "gossip" the complaints of dozens of his seminarians about homosexual abuse in his seminary,Maradiaga strategy just insult the victims, lie, cover up a chasm of abuses, mismanagement of church property, and financial scandals one after the other of which Francis was and is aware of. Francis is aware of abuses in Honduras, Argentina, chile. Pope Francis must be the first to set an example and resign along with all these abusers he has covered up for. AMDG

>3 brone: a meeting where a homosexual priest was discussed

My understanding is that the issue is about the discussion of a paedophile rather than a homosexual priest.

Editorial: In penance for mishandled abuse cases, Benedict needs to give up 'pope emeritus' (NCR)

among the bishops implicated in moving around offenders and covering up their abuse was a man who went on to become pope: then-archbishop, later Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger. The 1,900-page report, released Jan. 20 by a Munich law office after a two-year investigation, accuses Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI of mishandling at least four cases of sexual abuse by priests when he was archbishop in Munich. Ratzinger not only failed to discipline abusive priests, but also allowed them to continue in pastoral work, sometimes even after punishment by the secular judicial system. In at least one case, the perpetrator went on to abuse another victim. "In a total of four cases, we came to the conclusion that the then-archbishop, Cardinal Ratzinger, can be accused of misconduct," said one of the reports' authors... the 94-year-old Benedict initially denied any wrongdoing and drew some disturbing conclusions, such as indicating that a priest did not "act improperly" because he didn't touch prepubescent girls while masturbating in front of them...

Conservative Catholic commentators who have railed against sexual abuse in the church since the 2018 uncovering of abuse by former Cardinal Theodore McCarrick seem torn when leaders of their ideological persuasion, such as Benedict and Pope John Paul II, are implicated. Some have brushed off the allegations against Benedict as just one of many made by many church leaders of that generation...

We believe more than an apology is in order. We join the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests, more commonly known as SNAP, in calling for Benedict to give up his title as "pope emeritus" — a designation fraught with complications even before these allegations of abuse cover-up. Perhaps he should also stop wearing the white cassock normally reserved for popes...

Just as an aside, white cassocks are commonly worn by bishops, and in earlier days by missionary priests and brothers, in Africa, so I'm surprised to hear that they are "normally reserved for popes".

What we need is another Peter Damion, Popes, Cardinals, Archbishops, Pastors have been hiding, covering up, and condoning paedophilia, homosexuality,and other vices for years, like I said Joe Ratzinger fast tract to sainthood will be quashed by the deep church....AMDG....

On another topic "everything that rises must converge". There is simply no doubt that the embrace of theistic evolution by prominent, devout, and intelligent Catholics creates a huge stumbling block for those who rightly admire them for their genuine contributions to the Church. Isn't it time for us to "discern the spirits whether they be of God" and to speak the truth to our fellow Catholics when we discern the spirit of deception in works widely accepted by them, Teilhardian's errors are alive and well with the intellectual Catholic community today....AMDG....

>7 brone:

"The Catholic Church holds no official position on the theory of creation or evolution, leaving the specifics of either theistic evolution or literal creationism to the individual within certain parameters established by the Church. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, any believer may accept either literal or special creation within the period of an actual six-day, twenty-four-hour period, or they may accept the belief that the earth evolved over time under the guidance of God. Catholicism holds that God initiated and continued the process of his evolutionary creation and that all humans, whether specially created or evolved, have and have always had specially created souls for each individual." (Richard P. McBrien, The HarperCollins Encyclopædia of Catholicism, 1995, p. 771.)

"Word that Pope Francis... said that faith and creationism aren’t at odds with one another may have shocked many Americans, but the comments don’t actually reflect any deviation from long-standing church teaching... Modern Catholic teaching on evolution stems from the papal encyclical Humani generis of Pope Pius XII in 1950, a letter on Catholic doctrine dictating that evolution and Catholic faith are not necessarily at odds... " (Pope Francis Says Science and Faith Aren't at Odds, 2015)

"(A) The Catholic Church has repeatedly made clear that biological evolution is compatible with Christian belief... (B) The Catholic Church never at any time condemned the theory of evolution..." (Q1: (A) Does the Catholic Church accept Evolution? (B) Did the Catholic Church ever condemn Evolution in the past?, Society of Catholic Scientists)

“As the Church has made no pronouncement upon evolution, Catholics are perfectly free to accept evolution, either as a scientific hypothesis or as a philosophical speculation.” (Bertrand L. Conway, The Question Box, 2nd ed., New York: Paulist Press, 1929, pp 8-9)

“This is the gist of the theory of evolution as a scientific hypothesis. It is in perfect agreement with the Christian conception of the universe.” (E. Wasmann, “Evolution,” in The Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. V, New York: The Gilmary Society, 1909, p 654)

St John Henry Newman, widely regarded as one of the greatest Catholic theologians of the 19th century, wrote in 1874, “I see nothing in the theory of evolution inconsistent with an Almighty Creator and Protector” (Letter to Rev. David Brown, in John Henry Newman Letters & Diaries, Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1973, 27.43). I think you've indicated before that Newman is a great favourite of yours.

"When we read about Creation in Genesis, we run the risk of imagining God was a magician, with a magic wand able to do everything. But that is not so," Francis said at a meeting of the Pontifical Academy of Sciences... "He created human beings and let them develop according to the internal laws that he gave to each one so they would reach their fulfillment... Evolution in nature is not inconsistent with the notion of creation, because evolution requires the creation of beings that evolve." "We Catholics embrace the idea of natural laws to explain how nature works — science — precisely because we do not confuse the actions of those laws with the actions of God," said Brother Guy Consolmagno SJ, an astronomer and planetary scientist for the Vatican Observatory. "God is the reason why the universe, including time and space, exists and why it has laws. Science describes how those laws work." (Pope Francis Speaks Out on Evolution (And Why It's No Surprise), 2014)

We cannot say creation or evolution, these two things respond to two different realities, the dust of the earth and the breath of God does not explain how man came to be, rather what he is. Evolution on the other hand seeks to understand biological developments in so doing cannot explain where man came from, nor his inner origin, not even his particular nature. to that extent I grant you we are faced with two complimentary rather than mutually exclusive realities....JMJ....

I am a fan of Newman, I am a fan of Conway, I am not a fan of McBride's, or of Pope Francis....AMDG....

>9 brone:

Well, yes. That's what the Catholic Church teaches. Science and theology answer different questions, but as you say, they are complementary and not mutually exclusive.

Saint Josephine Bakhita Sculpture to be Installed in St. Peter’s Square (ACI Africa)

A statue of Saint Josephine Bakhita, the patron of human trafficking victims, will be placed in St. Peter’s Square at the Vatican. The bronze sculpture, a piece by Catholic artist Timothy P. Schmalz, is dedicated to trafficking victims and to all women, especially the religious sisters who work to free women from modern day slavery...

A good move on two counts: first, that it gives visibility to an African woman saint, and secondly that it highlights the problem of human trafficking and the work that is done by Catholic women, both religious and lay, to free women from this modern day form of slavery.

The rescission of Summorium Pontificum is of coarse exactly wrong. "stand at the crossroads and look," we must reply; "ask for the ancient paths and where the best road is. Walk in it and you will live in peace(Jer 6:16, 18: 15-17; Deut 32:7)

Ex-Pope admits errors in handling of abuse cases (BBC)

Former Pope Benedict XVI has acknowledged that errors were made in the handling of sexual abuse cases when he was archbishop of Munich. In a letter released by the Vatican, the former pontiff asked forgiveness for any "grievous fault" but denied personal wrongdoing...

In his first personal response to the report, the former Pope, now 94, wrote: "I have had great responsibilities in the Catholic Church. All the greater is my pain for the abuses and the errors that occurred in those different places during the time of my mandate." He described the actions against victims of sexual abuse as a "most grievous fault. "As in those meetings, once again I can only express to all the victims of sexual abuse my profound shame, my deep sorrow and my heartfelt request for forgiveness. "Quite soon, I shall find myself before the final judge of my life", he added...

The full text of Pope Benedict XVI's letter referred to in >14 John5918: above can be found at Benedict XVI Issues Letter on Munich Abuse Report — Full Text (National Catholic Register)

No Mea cupa from the current pope .....JMJ.....

Vatican: Number of Catholics Worldwide Rose by 16 Million in 2020 (National Catholic Register)

The number of Catholics worldwide increased by an estimated 16 million in 2020 to 1.36 billion, according to statistics released on Friday by the Vatican. The rise was in line with global population growth in the year that the coronavirus pandemic swept the planet, reported Vatican News, the online news portal of the Holy See. Catholics continued to account for 17.7% of the total world population... As in previous years, the Church grew most rapidly in Asia (1.8%) and Africa (2.1%) and most modestly in Europe (0.3%). Almost half (48%) of the world’s Catholics live in the Americas, with 28% located in South America...

At the end of 2020, there were a total of 410,219 priests, a decrease of 4,117 compared to 2019. Although there was a fall in the number of priests in North America and Europe, there was a “significant increase” in Africa and Asia... around 40% of the world’s priests lived in Europe, 29% in the Americas, 17% in Asia, 12% in Africa, and 1% in Oceania. The number of Catholics per priest worldwide rose from 3,245 in 2019 to 3,314 in 2020. In Europe, there was an average of 1,746 Catholics per priest, 2,086 in the Americas, and 5,089 in Africa. There was an increase in permanent deacons, from 48,238 in 2019 to 48,635 in 2020... The number of male religious who are not priests grew worldwide from 50,295 in 2019 to 50,569 in 2020... The number of women religious fell globally from 630,099 in 2019 to 619,546 in 2020, a drop of -1.7%. But there was a rise in Africa (3.2%) and Asia (0.2%), alongside a decrease in Europe (-4.1%), the Americas (-2.8%) and Oceania (-5.7%). There were 111,855 seminarians in 2020, compared to 114,058 in 2019. There were notable decreases in Europe (-4.3%), the Americas (-4.2%) and Asia (-3.5%) but a rise of 2.8% (from 32,721 to 33,628) in Africa.

Card. Turkson: Those who care for the sick lend their hands to God's mercy (Vatican News)

Cardinal Peter Turkson celebrated Mass in St Peter’s Basilica on Friday on the occasion of the 30th World Day of the Sick. In his homily, he reflected on the value of the consolation that Christians are called to offer in suffering: being merciful takes on a special meaning for all healthcare workers...

French Catholic Nun Turns 118, Making Her the Second Oldest Person in the World (ACI Africa)

Sister Andre Randon, a French nun, celebrated her 118th birthday on Feb. 11. This milestone makes her the second-oldest living person in the world and the oldest living person in Europe... In anticipation of the big day, the President of France, Emmanuel Macron, sent the beloved nun a greeting... Born Lucile Randon on Feb. 11, 1904, in Alés, France, she converted to Catholicism at 19-years-old from Protestantism. She served young children and the elderly at a French hospital until she became a nun at the age of 40. She joined the Daughters of Charity — founded by St. Vincent de Paul, in 1944. She took the name Sister Andre in honor of her deceased brother... Upon her 115th birthday in 2019, Sister Andre received a card and a blessed rosary from Pope Francis, which she uses every day. When she turned 116 in 2020, the Vincentian nun shared her “recipe for a happy life” — prayer and a cup of hot cocoa every day.

" The fundamental values' promoted by the UN are based on a rejection of God". Robert Cardinal Sarah.... JMJ.... The majority of Americans call today Super Bowl Sunday when in fact it is Septuagesima Sunday....AMDG....

>18 brone:

I can only find this reported a couple of times on Twitter a year or so ago. It would be interesting to see it in its original context. I would respectfully disagree with the good cardinal. Broadly speaking the UN universal declaration of human rights is consistent with Catholic Social Teaching, and indeed a leading Catholic philosopher, Jacques Maritain, a friend and mentor of Pope Paul VI, was influential in developing and drafting it.

I don't think the good Cardinal was speaking about the 1948 declaration....JMJ....

>20 brone:

That's why it would be interesting to have a link to the full text in context so that we can see exactly what he is speaking about. Or, since you chose to post it, perhaps you could explain what you think he is speaking about?

Catholic worker receives £500k in British Army case (BBC)

A Catholic civilian worker who had to leave her job over alleged harassment by her Army boss is set to receive more than £500,000 in compensation. Bronagh Murray, 51, took a religious and sexual discrimination case against the Ministry of Defence (MoD) after retiring due to ill health in 2019. The award, made by the fair employment tribunal in Belfast, is believed to be one of the biggest of its kind...

The comments were alleged to have been made by a captain at the Army's Thiepval Barracks in County Antrim in 2017... She claimed he said: "I need back up, I have an Irish Catholic girl armed and dangerous, come quick, need help"... "I bet you have tried to steal a cone, that is the Catholic coming out in you"...

Not really a global Catholic issue, but just a reminder that there are parts even of the modern, developed, pluralistic western world where being a Catholic leaves one open to discrimination and ridicule.

Czech cardinal accuses Germany's Cardinal Marx of 'betraying' Pope Benedict (NCR)

In a public spat between members of the Catholic hierarchy, Czech Cardinal Dominik Duka has accused German Cardinal Reinhard Marx of "defaming and tarnishing" the reputation of retired Pope Benedict XVI. The 78-year-old's comments are a part of the continued fallout surrounding Benedict's response to a German report that faulted his handling of clergy abuse cases as archbishop of Munich and Freising in the 1970s and '80s...

Thousands of baptisms invalidated by priest’s use of one wrong word (Guardian)

Priest in Phoenix, Arizona, resigns after mistakenly using the phrase ‘we baptize you’ instead of ‘I baptize you’ for years... His error means that countless baptisms – an irrevocable requirement for salvation in Catholic theology – will have to be performed again. And some churchgoers could find their marriages are not recognized...

One-word gaffe invalidates thousands of US baptisms (BBC)

A Catholic priest in Arizona is learning the hard way that "words matter" after a one-word gaffe forced officials to invalidate thousands of baptisms he conducted over many years. Church officials say that the priest, Andres Arango, used the word "we" instead of "I" during baptisms...

While we know that the normative form of words used in the sacraments is important, the reaction to this does seem rather extreme, emphasising the letter of the law over the spirit of the law. The sincere intent was baptism, and it seems to me that a pastoral solution could be explored to rectify the error without demanding thousands of re-baptisms and potentially remarriages. I suspect there are many priests who have not used the exact form of words in most of the sacraments at some time or other. What about administering sacraments in locations using unofficial ad lib translations where the sacraments have not yet been officially translated into the language of the people? Are those sacraments also invalid? While again affirming the importance of the normative wording, nonetheless I think it's more important that people have access to the sacraments than that the wording is exactly correct every time. That sounds rather like magic.

Archbishop of Luxemborg, recently said in an interview:"The Church's positions on homosexual relationships as sinful are wrong. " I believe that the sociological and scientific foundation of this doctrine is no longer correct". The teaching of the Church on the intrinsic immorality of sodomy, which sinful act brings into being a homosexual relationship between two men and two women is described by the Cardinal as "positions" and then as "doctrine"or a "teaching" whatever he considers it to be, he thinks it "wrong" because it's based, apparently, not on Scripture, Tradition, or natural law, but on "sociological and scientific foundations" that are "no longer correct." For these reasons he calls for a "fundamental revision of church teaching".....Our Lady of Good Remedy pray for us....JMJ....

>25 brone:

When you use the word "sodomy", are you quoting the good archbishop, or have you brought that word into the conversation yourself? You haven't cited any reference, so it's not clear to the reader. Sodomy, as I understand it, is a rather archaic and usually pejorative term for a particular sexual act between two human beings, more commonly referred to as anal sex, which does not necessarily have anything to do with homosexuality and is certainly not synonymous with homosexuality. It would appear that many heterosexual couples, including married couples, practice anal sex from time to time, while no doubt there are many homosexual couples who do not use that particular sexual act, and lesbians would find it very difficult to do so. Why are people so obsessed with the particular sexual acts which consenting adults carry out in the privacy of their own bedrooms?

Prominent French priest barred from ministry over abuse attends Vatican priesthood conference (NCR)

A prominent French priest barred from exercising public ministry due to abuse allegations is attending a major Vatican conference on the priesthood, organized, in part, to help the church turn a corner on abuse. Msgr. Tony Anatrella, a psychotherapist who was once an Vatican adviser on matters regarding human sexuality, was banned from ministering as a priest by the former Archbishop of Paris, Michel Aupetit, in 2018. News of his attendance at the Feb. 17-19 Vatican conference was first reported by the French Catholic daily, La Croix, which also reported that the Vatican said the cleric, who retains his priestly faculties, was not invited and registered on his own accord...

More than 400 cardinals, bishops, priests and theological experts are participating... "This symposium takes note of the outcry and anger of God's people," over clergy abuse and cover-up, said conference organizer Cardinal Marc Ouellet during his opening remarks on Feb. 17. Ouellet said the conference was an occasion "to express our sincere regret and to ask forgiveness again of the victims, who suffer their lives destroyed by abusive and criminal behavior, which has remained hidden for too long and treated lightly, out of a desire to protect the institution and the perpetrators instead of the victims"...

I suppose one might argue that as the Church tries to "turn a corner on abuse", hearing testimony from an abuser might help us to understand the mentality of the abuser and thus contribute to guarding against abuse in the future. But as the articles says, he wasn't invited and he has no role as a speaker; he registered privately.

Vatican spy story takes center stage as fraud trial resumes (NCR)

The Vatican's big fraud and extortion trial resumes Friday after exposing some unseemly realities of how the Holy See operates, with a new spy story taking center stage that is more befitting of a 007 thriller than the inner workings of a papacy. According to written testimony obtained Thursday, one of Pope Francis' top advisers brought in members of the Italian secret service to sweep his office for bugs and commissioned intelligence reports from them, completely bypassing the Vatican's own police force in the process. The reported actions of Archbishop Edgar Peña Parra, the No. 2 in the Vatican secretariat of state, raise some fundamental questions about the security and sovereignty of the Vatican City State, since he purportedly invited foreign intelligence operatives into the Holy See's inner sanctum, and then outsourced internal Vatican police spy work to them...

Your are right the sin of Sodomy is ancient it is even named after a city. Which brings me to my next beef, The other virus the church hardly speaks on is the romantic virus. In our wide spread admiration for the courage of boys speaking out about feeling like a girl, And a girl feeling like a boy. We must respect those feelings are manifestations of our true self. The kids are only trying to be authentic. Hitler and the Nazis ( sorry reminding you of those monsters but they become our only reference point) were the above named romantics can go to u tube and pick any number of Hitler speeches. He is clearly expressing his feelings-feelings of murderous hatred, to be sure. But they are feelings and from the point of view of Rousseau and his current devotees thats the important thing. I grant that there are gentle followers of this philosophy the good side shall we say, just now however judging from manners and morals this side does not have the upper hand....AMDG

>28 brone:

Sorry, but I find that post rather rambling and I'm struggling to understand your train of thought. You're right of course that Hitler's speeches can be found easily online and Nazism seems to be becoming increasingly popular amongst the political far right and, apparently, many disaffected and disturbed young white males. I'm no expert on Rousseau, but he was not unsympathetic towards religion, if a little unorthodox. There are elements of his thought on the common good which could be in conversation with Catholic Social Teaching, and some of his thinking on democracy might well be worth exploring in these times when we see democracy being challenged in the USA and elsewhere. As Winston Churchill said in 1947, "Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time", so democracy certainly needs defending and improving. But what was your point?

On Feb 22 the Church celebrates a chair, that of St Peter. You are peter and upon this Rock I will build my Church(Mt16:18). Peter began his ministry at the head of the Church in Jerusalem. We find him in Antioch and finally in Rome where he died a martyr. For this reason, Rome is recognized as the see of Peter's successor and the chair of its Bishop is like that of the Apostle called by Christ to guide his flock. This feast has been celebrated by the Church since 3 ad For centuries it was believed to be the seat on which Peter sat. In reality only a few fragments date back to the time of the Apostle. The current Chair today is thought to date from the 9th century. In the 13th century the chair became an important devotional object.Yearly on this feast the chair was carried in procession and put on view for veneration. In 1666 it was placed in a monument carved by Bernini, in the apse of St Peters where it is still found today. Today sadly it has lost its fascination and is only celebrated symbolically. Nevertheless we thank God for the mission entrusted to the Apostle Peter and his successors as the visible principle and foundation of the Unity of the Church. Long Live Francis the Vicar of Christ....JMJ....

In an audience with priests of the FSSP, the Holy Father sent a decree signed by him and The pope expressed he was impressed with the founders of the FSSP, their desire to remain faithful to the Roman Pontiff, their trust in the Church. The Pope made it clear that institutes such as the FSSP are not affected by the general provisions of Traditionis Custodes....JMJ.... PS Arch Bishop Roche must have been out to lunch when that meeting took place....

>31 brone:

All very interesting, but it would help if you could cite a reference for the statements to which you are referring so we can read what the pope said and the context. Also a reference to whatever you are imputing to Archbishop Roche. There is a thread dedicated to Traditionis Custodes, incidentally.

And on a lighter note, I've just noticed that a Guardian writer has the name Cath Bishop.

I forgive Pope Benedict. I hope others can too (NCR)

I first met Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger in 1994... At the end of the interview, I asked for his blessing — something I only did with two other Vatican officials — because I sensed I was in the presence of a holy man. But I also knew I was in the presence of a man who, as head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, had done irreparable harm to theological discussion in the church. There were scores of theologians who had been investigated and silenced by his congregation during the papacy of John Paul II. Articles and books had been censored. Professors had been removed from their jobs. Even more had practiced self-censorship to avoid harassment.Those targeted included liberation theologians in Latin America, moral theologians in the United States and Europe, and anyone writing about the priesthood...

I am getting old, and I now want to forgive Benedict. I want to let it go. I don't think we really grow up until we are able to forgive our parents for their failures. Benedict has not asked for my forgiveness. I doubt he remembers who I am. He probably still believes what he did to me and to numerous theologians was the right thing for the church, but I still want to forgive him. I cannot insist that others forgive him, especially those who were abused by priests. In the early days of the crisis, he was like every other prelate, but he got better over time and faster than did many of his peers. He ultimately helped the church improve its response to the abuse crisis. But my experience is in no way comparable to the pain they suffered. In short, I see Benedict as a holy but flawed individual who did the best he was capable of. For all of us, that is the best we can say, so we should forgive as we would want to be forgiven. In the end, as he said, "finally, only our Lord can judge."

>34 John5918: Thomas Reese

Ukraine: Catholic responses to Russia's invasion (Catholic Peacebuilding Network)

The first section of this update lists some of the Catholic reactions to the invasion of Ukraine by Russia.

Ukrainian Catholic Leader: "No one has the right to stay silent" (ACI Africa)

No one can afford to be silent in the face of the bloodshed happening in Ukraine, the leader of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, Major Archbishop Sviatoslav Shevchuk, said in a video message on Saturday... “In these minutes, when blood is shed on the Ukrainian land, when Patriarch Josyf’s words of ‘mountains of corpses and rivers of blood’ are repeated, in all our cities, along all the banks of our beautiful Dnipro River — from the Belarusian border through Kyiv and all the way to the Black Sea — no one has the right to stay silent,” he stated...

"They pray all day long": How Religious Sisters are Helping Needy amid Conflict in Ukraine (ACI Africa)

For Sister Franciszka Tumanevych, the first day of the full-scale Russian invasion was the most difficult. The 42-year-old member of the Sisters of the Holy Family of Nazareth told CNA that fear spread in Zhytomyr, the northern Ukrainian city where her convent is based, when Russian President Vladimir Putin ordered his forces to attack on Feb. 24. “It was a shock, panic broke out. People were lining up for food, medicine, gasoline,” she recalled. “But everything calmed down in the evening. Then the next day, we understood that we had to learn to live in war conditions, and we took up concrete work. For if you remain idle, it’s terrible. Now, we keep praying”... The Caritas-Spes center where the sisters used to work is now closed, so they spend their days praying and making sandwiches for the city’s civilian defenders. Tumanevych said that there was a great spirit of solidarity in Zhytomyr, which has a population of more than 260,000 people. The sisters have received phone calls from locals offering transportation and other forms of help. When Tumanevych went to donate blood for Ukraine’s wounded, she found more than 100 people waiting in line, so she vowed to return another day. While performing their daily tasks, the sisters seek to pray constantly... “Now more and more people are joining for the rosary. Yesterday there were already 72 families, as well as our sisters from America, Italy and Great Britain,” Tumanevych said. “And at the end of the rosary, we say that we can now go to sleep because sisters from America are taking over the duty,” she added...

"I believe I'm holding Mary's hand," Catholic Journalist Chronicling War in Ukraine Says (ACI Africa)

A Catholic Ukrainian journalist is documenting day-to-day life in Ukraine following Russia’s invasion of the country — and sharing her faith in God along the way. “These days, I fall asleep with the rosary in my hands and the prayer ‘Hail Mary’ on my lips,” the journalist in Kyiv, who remains anonymous for security reasons, says in her most recent diary entry on March 3. “I believe I’m holding Mary's hand. She's nearby”...

In the US a resurgence of the Leonine prayer to St Michael has spread across the country, Cupich of Chicago has told it's Priests not to recite this prayer in public AFTER mass. His reasoning is that it takes away from the liturgy. His real reason we all know is that Michael is to manly, old fashioned and aggressive. This in a city with 70/90 shootings a week 7 murders aweek....AMDG....

>39 brone:

Just as a matter of interest, how do you know his "real reason"? Can you cite a source, by any chance?

You and your sources Cupich is left of the Mississippi anything conservative he has a hissy fit, he must have fell from the Banquet table when Francis held an olive branch to the FSSP....JMJ....

>41 brone:

That post feels rather like uncharitable innuendo and doesn't answer my simple question about the reason the good cardinal has made that particular liturgical recommendation. Many bishops and cardinals have given instructions about particular practices in their dioceses which they and their advisors judge "take away from the liturgy" , and whether I agree or disagree with them I usually find it more helpful to accept their stated reason and consider the case on its merits rather than attributing imaginary and pejorative motives to them.

Pope Francis Sends Cardinals to Ukraine, Where "rivers of blood and tears flow" (ACI Africa)

Pope Francis condemned Russia’s invasion of Ukraine and expressed his solidarity with the country on Sunday. “Rivers of blood and tears are flowing in Ukraine,” he began his Angelus address. “It is not merely a military operation, but a war, which sows death, destruction, and misery”... Pope Francis announced his desire to help the Ukrainian people achieve peace. “The Holy See is ready to do everything, to put itself at the service of this peace,” he said, announcing that two cardinals recently traveled to Ukraine “to serve the people, to help.” He named the two cardinals as papal almoner Cardinal Konrad Krajewski and Cardinal Michael Czerny, interim prefect of the Dicastery for Promoting Integral Human Development. “The presence of the two cardinals there is the presence not only of the pope, but of all the Christian people who want to get closer and say: ‘War is madness! Stop, please! Look at this cruelty!’” Pope Francis exclaimed...

The track record of cupcake Cupich is in the public domain. Meanwhile another hero of the left, Saint Joe Biden on Friday calls Florida's new anti abortion law "dangerous".Biden wrote, "my administration will not stand for the continual erosion of women's rights " This just two days after receiving ashes from another cupcake Wilton Gregory....AMDG....

>44 brone:

Calling cardinals of the Church "cupcakes" is neither charitable nor helpful in discerning the reasons for either their liturgical instructions or their distribution of ashes on Ash Wednesday. Last time I looked, President Joe Biden was not a saint, and indeed he is no "hero of the left", as people on the left generally consider both US parties to be right wing, with the Democrats being slightly less right wing than the Republicans. Can we try to discuss issues, please, without gratuitous and pejorative labels/insults? And perhaps stay away from domestic US partisan politics in this group?

What angers elitists most is that a New Church is emerging, slowly, painfully, two steps forward one step back. What is ironic is that the New Church is really the old Church, The Church of Tradition. It may not be just emerging, but also shrinking, a significant down sizing, the whole smug elitist body will fade away in dramatic numbers as quickly as a decade. The Church of Tradition will slowly continue to have the scales tip in its favor. You will experience a "double effect" of growth, that is, it will grow on its own, but its growth will look larger when compared to the shrinking competition from the elite professional catholics. Peasant Catholics, blue collar Catholics, lunch pail Catholics, meaning those of us who the establishment catholics disregard, and smirk, and wish we would leave with our traditions. We are now establishing blogs, developing web sites, starting publishing efforts and taking the Gospel to the streets, marching for life, vigils outside abortion clinics, fatima crusades. We have been at home raising our kids in the faith, holding back the tide of secularization from engulfing us, praying the Rosary, daily mass when we can, all this while trying to make ends meet. While the cupcakes are nowhere to be seen except at some fake charity banquet getting fat....JMJ....

>46 brone:

Who are the "elitists"? While the Church in your country and in most of the Global North is indeed shrinking, the Church in the Global South is expanding. Most ordinary (ie "non-elitist") Catholics in Africa, Asia and South America are actually not "establishing blogs, developing web sites, starting publishing efforts" which undermine the Church and create division, although they are "taking the Gospel to the streets" by working for peace, human dignity and social justice in their respective countries. Far from the "establishment" "disregarding" the poor and marginalised Catholics, Pope Francis is encouraging us to be more inclusive - the Synod on Synodality is one example of that, but so are many other parts of our Tradition, including much of Catholic Social Teaching, inculturation, and the preferential option for the poor. I don't know anything about "fake charity banquets" - my experience of the the Church's charitable efforts is at the sharp end, delivering humanitarian aid, running hospitals and schools, helping refugees and people who have been displaced by conflict, in war zones and amongst some of the poorest of the poor. I would suggest that it's not helpful to try to equate a small number of "Peasant Catholics, blue collar Catholics, lunch pail Catholics" who are not happy with the Church in two or three of the richest countries in the world with the millions of Catholics in the poorer parts of the world for whom the Church is vibrant and active and who are indeed "at home raising their kids in the faith, holding back the tide of secularisation from engulfing them, praying the Rosary, daily mass when they can, all this while trying to make ends meet". And in reality, the vast majority of ordinary Catholics even in Europe and north America are not supporters of your agenda - they're just getting on with life as Catholics have always done, a silent majority, one might say. If anybody is "elitist", it is the small minority in the rich countries who are trying to undermine a Church which is no longer dominated by their narrative.

What is ironic is that the New Church is really the old Church, The Church of Tradition

No argument with you there. We are a Church of Tradition, and by virtue of my membership of the Catholic Church I am a traditionalist, although I would probably interpret that term differently to you. It encompasses the whole Tradition of the Church, not just a rather static 400 year period between the Council of Trent and the Second Vatican Council, and it recognises that the Tradition of the Church has always evolved and developed, and continues to do so. The Church post-Vatican II is not a "new" Church, it is just the current expression of the same "old" Church, and in fact it would be against Tradition to try to turn the clock back. We are (and always have been) a Church living and growing in the Holy Spirit, not a dead museum based on nostalgia for the past.

In Maryland the only Catholic founded colony of the original 13 colonies, a bill has been introduced to terminate a child's life up to 28 days after birth a sort of trial period so to speak, I'd introduce a bill to change the name of Maryland to Murderland....JMJ....

Do Muslims believe in the one true God?

Col Sister Dede Byrne has won her fight in court for her religious conviction. Byrne.s law suit pointed out that she believes that, abortion " interlocks with and supports experimentation involving abortive fetal tissues and cell lines derived from them which is now central to the vaccine industry most recently respecting the mRNA and DNA Covid-19, genetic, experimental injections". The govt argument was that her being unvaxed would cause "undue hardship" to the DC Health department who Sr Byrne never worked, The Col worked free of charge and helped the poor and undocumented of Washington all during the Pandemic....AMDG....

>50 brone:

Thanks for the news about Sr Dede Byrne. As it happens, I've met her, and I have great respect and admiration for her and her work. She's a very independent person and I'm not in the least surprised that she is standing up for what she believes, as she always has done, although her stance on vaccination is her personal opinion, not the position of the Church.

What is "The Col"?

Colonel Dierdre Byrne US Army Surgeon....alias sister badass....AMDG....

>52 brone:

Can you provide any details of the lawsuit? The following article about the lawsuit, dated yesterday, doesn't mention the result of the lawsuit, which you say she won.

Irish American nun sues Washington, DC over COVID vaccine mandate (Irish Central)

Another article from three days ago states that in fact she was granted an exemption by the District of Columbia but not by the court, and that the court case is continuing anyway.

DC Provides Dubious Vaccination Mandate Exemption to Nun-Physician 2 Days After Lawsuit Filed (Epoch Times)

Can you cite a reference to clarify this?

Edited to add: alias sister badass

Can you give us an idea who is calling her "sister badass"? It's not a term I have heard used about her by those who introduced me to her. I would suggest it's not a very respectful nor charitable way of referring to the good sister.

Socialists have no tolerance for slang especially American. How bout Sr. Colonel Byrne is a wicked good nun....AMDG.....

>54 brone:

Or perhaps it's just that a lot of non-Americans of whatever political persuasion are not au fait with American slang? I suspect that if, on this international web site, I were to break into Cockney rhyming slang, perhaps with a little Geordie dialect thrown in, it would be as incomprehensible to non-Britons as some of the American slang is to us, but I would not make the assumption that it was due to anybody's political beliefs.

Any further information on the court case?

Politics gut nuttin to do wit it.

>57 brone:

Actually you were the one who introduced politics in >54 brone: by suggesting that people of a particular political persuasion ("socialists") have no tolerance for slang, particularly American slang. I was simply saying that, er, politics has nothing to do with it, so I'm happy that you have now reversed your position and you agree with me.

Any update on Sr Dede Byrne's court case? I've googled again but can't find anything new suggesting that she has "won" her case as you reported.

Court of the Holy Ghost and the lawyers of Thomas More defeated the secularists....JMJ.....

>59 brone:

No doubt, but has she won the court case as you reported, and can you point us in the direction of the report?

settled out of court

>61 brone:

Thanks. Can you cite a source for that, please, so we can all read it?

EWTN

Leftist catholics don't care about this link, they don't want to know about it at all. 5,600 babies will be murdered this week in planned parenthood "clinics", not counting other abortion mills in the US 618,000, million of taxpayers money is earmarked to planned parenthood co-operation this year, yes this is a money making industry. The US House of Representatives will install its first Catholic Chaplain this week shows how many Catholic representatives there are.... AMDG....

>64 brone: Leftist catholics don't care about this link

If you would actually post a link instead of making generalisations about whole groups of people ("leftists catholics", whoever they may be) then members of this group could have a sensible conversation with you about it.

yes this is a money making industry

Yes, I think you'll find that the entire health industry in the USA is, by design and intent, a money-making industry.

Abortion, healthcare is an oxymoron, the Catholic health care system in the US is huge and by design and intent is a money making institution. Thank God for that, the Catholic health system enjoys an excellent reputation in America....JMJ.....

>66 brone: the Catholic health system enjoys an excellent reputation

Yes, I think you'll find that's true in many countries throughout the world, at least on the African continent but also elsewhere.

>58 John5918: Like I said before I agree with you and his Holiness alot on faith and morals. other stuff not so much....AMDG....

New Jersey diocese agrees to pay $87.5m settlement to 300 alleged abuse victims (Guardian)

A New Jersey Catholic diocese has agreed to pay $87.5m to settle claims involving clergy sexual abuse with some 300 alleged victims, marking one of the largest cash settlements involving the Catholic church in the United States... “I want to express my sincere apology to all those who have been affected by sexual abuse in our diocese,” Bishop Dennis Sullivan said in a statement. “My prayers go out to all survivors of abuse and I pledge my continuing commitment to ensure that this terrible chapter in the history of the diocese of Camden, New Jersey, never happens again”... The diocese, like others across the country, had filed for bankruptcy amid a torrent of lawsuits...

Recently the Jesuit run magazine America argued that the Gospel of John read on Good Friday's liturgy should be dropped for promoting anti Semitism.Is the problem John,s Gospel or the Jesuits?

>70 brone: "But the tradition of reading John on Good Friday comes out of historical traditions that have nothing to do with theology. In the seventh century, the earliest days of the Lectionary, Christian practice was to read all four passions during Holy Week, Father Baldovin said. The choice of which Gospel to read when was simply a matter of publication order. “Sunday was always Matthew, Monday was always Mark, Tuesday was Luke, and Good Friday was John.” John was read on Good Friday “because that was the order of the New Testament,” said Father Baldovin.

On Good Friday, the point is not to wonder who should be blamed for the crucifixion, but how far Jesus was willing to go for us, the depth of his love.

I asked Father Baldovin if there was anything preventing the church from changing which Passion gets read on Good Friday. For instance, could we use the Gospel of Luke, which we heard on Palm Sunday this year? “Theoretically, there’s no reason,” he said. “But it would take a lot to change it.”

He also notes that the church has already made some changes to the Good Friday liturgy out of concerns that it came across as anti-Semitic. In 1962, the liturgy was changed to eliminate the term “the perfidious Jews” from the prayers of petition, but there are more recent changes as well.

In 2008, after authorizing a new edition of the Roman Missal the previous year, Pope Benedict again changed the prayer. “It’s quite beautiful,” Father Baldovin notes. “We pray for those who share the ancient faith with us.” Among the solemn intercessions, we ask: “Let us pray also for the Jewish people, to whom the Lord our God spoke first, that he may grant them to advance in love of his name and in faithfulness to his covenant.”"

I don't think it's just the Jesuits.

>70 brone:, >71 MsMixte:

Thanks. Could one of you give us a link to the America article, please, and also to the quotes in >71 MsMixte:?

I once worked with a Palestinian Catholic priest who was so traumatised by the suffering of his people under the modern Israeli state that he refused to pronounce the word "Israel" when reading the bible, and always substituted it with something else.

On Good Friday, the point is not to wonder who should be blamed for the crucifixion, but how far Jesus was willing to go for us, the depth of his love.

Very true.

Catholic Bishop in Nigeria Says He Speaks “to invoke conversation”, Not to Attract Support (ACI Africa)

The Bishop of Nigeria’s Sokoto Diocese known for speaking boldly against failures in good governance has said that he does not speak to gain followers but “to invoke conversation”. Bishop Matthew Hassan Kukah whose Easter 2022 Message has ignited controversy, with a State official accusing the Catholic Church leader of “damning the government in the most un-Christian terms” has said he is not guided “by how many hands are raised in support of” him. In a Tuesday, April 19 interview with Arise Tv, Bishop Kukah said, “I have never tried to speak because I want people to agree with me. I speak my mind.” “I am a Christian and I think everybody who has some level of faith should be convinced that you do not measure what you say by how many hands are raised in support of you. It is only the truth that validates itself," the Nigerian Bishop said. The Local Ordinary of Sokoto Diocese further said that he is happy when people react to his messages because "I am a public intellectual and my duty is to invoke conversation"...

I find that to be a powerful message, that we have a duty "to invoke conversation". May this LT Catholic Tradition group always strive to invoke conversations.

>72 John5918: Yes, here's the link:

https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2022/04/14/good-friday-gospel-john-jews-24...

>74 MsMixte:

Thanks. A balanced and well-argued article.

Cancel St John the beloved Apostle, the caretaker of the Mother of God, I smell the favorite saint of the progressives, Jimmy Martin. If we take into account that most of the ideas of the jebbies in the last hundred years, thankfully, do not survive. This new idea of theirs is a trial balloon aimed at their progressive left base, who are not hampered by the narrow kinds of Orthodoxy and piety which afflict us lowly rigid Catholics. Of course Jesuits have had a revelation (maybe one of those small r ones we discovered were occurring now-a-days) that the true meaning of Christianity was only recently discovered with the advent of Vatican ll, Montini had a problem with them. Wojtyla wanted to shut them down, Ratzinger was not a fan every time they opened their mouths some Jesuit would howl, no howling with the Jesuit Bergoglio, where is Paul Mankowski when you need him....JMJ....

>76 brone: People are not perfect, but you have forgotten the Fruits of the Holy Spirit.

Fruits of the Holy Spirit

Charity
Joy
Peace
Patience
Goodness
Kindness
Long suffering
Humility
Faithfulness
Modesty
Continence
Chastity

Remember, Jesus said of all the Commandments, that there were two which are most important:

Love God with all your heart.

Love your neighbor as yourself.

>77 MsMixte: You left out Understanding.

>76 brone:

That sounds like a bit of an uncharitable rant, and it doesn't make much sense. Shall we try to stick to charitable and rational conversation?

All right I keep forgetting you are not American forgive me for my non global tongue in cheek rhetoric. Lets see if I can say say it more charitable. Here goes see if you can put your imprimatur on this. I believe the history of humanity as but a record of the battle between coercion and servitude characteristic of the state, and sometimes the Church, between faith and unbelief, between good and evil, and the latter (in my view) is represented by progressive socialists laymen and priests who use political power and social engineering attempts doomed to disaster. Whatever happens we will never see the destruction caused by these statist socialists triumph. This destruction is the main manifestation of the devil's constant attempt to destroy, through envy the work of God and his main creature man (sorry can't help myself I meant Human Being)....JMJ....

>80 brone:

Thank you for expressing your opinion. Of course I disagree with most of it, but that's what conversations are all about. I do not narrow "the history of humanity" down to a handful of black-white yes-no good-evil zero sum dualities but see it as far more complex, diverse and indeed hopeful than you appear to. I don't believe that either progress or socialism are necessarily or inherently evil (although just about anything can be turned to evil, and I do think there's a good argument that unfettered free market capitalism is inherently evil) nor are they "doomed to disaster". But I also think these political opinions would be better expressed on LT's Pro and Con group rather than diverting the Catholic Tradition group.

I'm not sure to which "Current Catholic Issues" (the title of this thread) you are referring in this post. A couple of posts ago you were complaining about the suggestion that Luke's account of the Passion of Christ rather than John's should be used on Good Friday. The article which was linked in >74 MsMixte: (have you read the whole article, incidentally?) patiently explains the changes which have taken place in the Good Friday liturgy over centuries (long before Vatican II), how the choice of which gospel to read on Good Friday was random, and how a number of other changes have been made to the liturgy, including in 1962 (ie pre-Vatican II) and again in 2008 by Pope Benedict XVI, who even in the mixed up world of Catholic culture warriors is generally not viewed as a "progressive socialist". While you may not like particular instances, liturgical change is a part of our Tradition, and is not "evil" (unless, perhaps, you think Luke's gospel is "evil", or less valid than John's?). A reasoned explanation of why you disagree with this particular suggestion would be more helpful than a rant about Jesuits, socialists, someone called Jimmy Martin who as far as I know is not a saint and whom I had never heard of (unless perhaps you are referring to James Martin SJ?), and someone else called Paul Mankowski - I looked him up, and found he's a deceased US Jesuit priest and writer. RIP. If these two chaps have something to add to the conversation, perhaps you could quote them rather than making vague allusions to them?

my non global tongue in cheek rhetoric

Having lived and studied in the USA, and having followed global news and literature (which incidentally includes US news and literature), I'm well aware of the difference between "tongue in cheek rhetoric" and hiding behind "tongue in cheek rhetoric" in order to make offensive and snide comments appear acceptable. In charity I'm sure you would never do the latter, and I try to give you the benefit of the doubt.

>76 brone: Montini... Wojtyla... Ratzinger... Bergoglio...

Is this a new convention within Catholic circles, that we refer to popes by their surnames rather than their official names?

Cancel St John the beloved Apostle

What exactly do you mean by "cancel St John"?

"It is when socialists are good that they are dangerous" D Day

>82 brone:

6th June 1944? Or did you mean Dorothy Day? I googled and the only similar quote from her I can find is, "It is when the Communists are good that they are dangerous" (link).

>82 brone: Does this quote from (someone? something?) mean anything to the conversation at hand?

Perhaps you could explain, preferably without digressing into bitter invective directed at society in general?

>84 MsMixte: I was just quoting a person progressive Catholics want to be beatified,whats so invective about that....JMJ....

>85 brone: You are failing to make sense. Which means you aren't making a good case for convincing people to come around to your way of thinking.

>85 brone: I was just quoting

Misquoting according to my own google search, but perhaps I'm wrong on that.

a person progressive Catholics want to be beatified

I would rather say the Church wants her to be beatified, and the process is ongoing. It was initiated by Cardinal John O’Connor and Pope John Paul II, neither of them normally considered to have been "progressive Catholics". Indeed there are Catholics whom you might refer to as "progressives" who are opposed to her beatification, considering it to be an expensive waste of time and resources which could be better utilised in helping the poor as she herself did (cf Evidence of Dorothy Day’s radical sainthood heads to Rome):

“The canonization process is a huge investment of time and money,” said... a member of the Los Angeles Catholic Worker community. “How can we justify spending all this time and money when hundreds of thousands of our brothers and sisters are unhoused?”... “First and foremost, Dorothy didn’t want to be called a saint... She didn’t want that attention and admiration. She wanted people to imitate her, not put her on a pedestal.”

invective

You are posting a quote about socialism in a conversation about Good Friday. You started the conversation by referring to an article in America magazine which suggests that Luke's gospel should replace John's in the Good Friday liturgy. The article in question explains in detail the reasons for its suggestion, and also gives a quite comprehensive historical background on the Good Friday liturgy. A couple of LT members respond with questions and comments. You do not address any of them, nor do you explain why you disagree with America magazine's opinion. Instead you launch into a tirade against Jesuits, against "progressive socialists laymen and priests" (once again I wonder what an economic and political system has to do with Good Friday liturgy), you say "cancel St John" (whatever that means), you cast aspersions on whole classes of people, you name random Jesuits without explaining what relevance they have to the conversation, and you throw in "non global tongue in cheek rhetoric" which you may find amusing but which can appear as disparaging and offensive to others, not only non-Americans. Can you not understand that people get very frustrated when they try to have a conversation with you on a topic of your choice and instead of engaging on the issues you respond with, well, invective?

What you cant't stand is disagreement with your globalist views. There are plenty of Catholics Like myself who think D Day is not the cat's meow. I'm sure you could censor me, so go for it, I know I'm not on a venue that agrees with me, I'll go to the NO mass today in good conscience....AMDG....PS talk about Tirade yikes!

>88 brone:

What I "can't stand" is people making vague and often controversial statements on a public discussion board, and then when other people try to discuss it, refusing to engage.

I have no problem with people disagreeing with my views. I like trying to understand where other people are coming from. You and I are both part of the diversity which is the Catholic Church, catholic with a small "c", meaning universal, as well as with a capital "C". You represent a particular view within our broad Church, a minority one with which I often disagree, which is hardly surprising considering the very different world views that we inhabit. But wouldn't life be boring if we were all the same? I do think many of your views are based on an erroneous reading of Tradition and the Magisterium, and I enjoy discussing them, pointing out where and why I disagree with you, and waiting for you to explain and justify your own position. Sadly you usually reply with dismissive one-liners, or some of your "non global tongue in cheek rhetoric", and I find myself disappointed as I'm always hoping I will learn something new and interesting.

Yes, you do appear to be on a platform where those who bother to post tend to disagree with you, but disagreement is not censorship. You'll note that people take your comments seriously and show respect by posting quite long and thoughtful replies, often involving a degree of research to establish the actual facts, context, relevant Church teaching, etc. It would be nice if you could reciprocate and also post thoughtful, courteous, charitable and factual responses, but that's up to you. Nobody can force you. In some online platforms this type of behaviour, posting inflammatory comments and then refusing to engage when people respond, would be called trolling and would lead to consequences, but I would not expect anybody on this Catholic Tradition group to engage in trolling so I take your comments at face value and try to respond as best I can.

But we're off topic. Any chance you could explain to us why you think it is such a bad idea to use Luke's gospel instead of John's on Good Friday?

Just to clear things up with how I think, I could care less what Gospel is used on Good Friday until Jesuits brought it up. But us laity suffer sometimes in silence, they need to object and I do. The sensus fidelium is that common sense among the laity who have accepted the magiterial teachings of the Church, the sensus fidelium is an impulse that causes us to speak out and say no, here is what I say "that is not true,don't say that. Stop." That is sensus fedlium in action not to suffer in silence. That's crazy.That's weird. That's wrong. Speak up resist....JMJ.... If this be trolling God help us all...AMDG...

>90 brone: I could care less what Gospel is used on Good Friday until Jesuits brought it up

Hm. So your sole objection to using Luke's gospel on Good Friday is because the Jesuits suggested it?

us laity

That's almost 1.3 billion people. Many of them do speak up, but when they do, most of them don't seem to support some of the minority opinions which you express. You're perfectly entitled to your own opinions, but it would be a stretch to suggest you're speaking on behalf of "us laity".

Speak up resist

Yes, by all means speak up and resist. But it would be helpful for the rest of us if you could explain your reasons for each thing that you are resisting. Who knows, some of us might agree with you. I seem to recall agreeing with you about the unseemly haste to canonise recent popes, for instance.

No you weren't wrong about the misquote it was deliberate I used the word socialist because I thought you might be sensitive to the Com word. As most yanks know a socialist is but a communist without a gun, as to your agreeing with me about fast tracking saints well I'm just doing a jig over here across the pond...I really stuck a thorn in your side when I disagreed with everything Francis has said about the latin rite, Also speaking about the jesuits I told you I respected Berrigan when he was performing his priestly duties, I respected the renowned Robert Drinan when told to step down from congress his politics I hated, Do I repect Martin no, and countless others since the inception of liberation theology, One highly sophisticated former boxer and great Jesuit was silenced for 20years because of his orthodox views, Fr Paul Mankowski, I recall incurring your wrath many times on subjects such as communion to adulterous couples, You telling me what I have to do hmmn! The last thing we need is people to say this or that is true, what we need at the present moment is for "us laity" to say That is not true. Just like in the 4th century when Arius was shouted down, "No Arius you are Wrong He is divine". When we have people stand up to the Homilist, priests, bishops,blogists, and say you are wrong you cannot give Communion to Abortionists and providers, to the divorced and remarried. So we the rag tag laity have more than one Successor to the Apostles who approve of our resistance. "It was indeed the hour of darkness, and it seemed if the powers of evil were let loose upon the world. The Arians with the emperor on their side, were carrying everything before them, nearly all the bishops who upheld the Nicene faith were in prison or exile" We could say that about Communist China today....JMJ

>92 brone:

Call me old-fashioned, but I've always believed that when one actually attributes a quote in quotataion marks to someone by name, as you did with Dorothy Day, it's more honest to try to quote them accurately rather than making one's own changes to it. And communism and socialism are not the same thing, whatever the US right wing might believe.

No, you didn't stick a thorn in my side, although your negativity about the Church's teachings and about the Holy Father and so many other sincere bishops, priests and laity does make me sad.

And the Good Friday issue that you brought up? Is your final position that you "could care less what Gospel is used on Good Friday", ie that using Luke's gospel would be fine with you?

>92 brone: great Jesuit was silenced for 20years because of his orthodox views, Fr Paul Mankowski

I think you'll find he was silenced because of his unorthodox views, but broadly this is one of the areas where I agree with you. Silencing discussion on any topic serves no constructive purpose, although it has been common practice in the Church almost since the beginning. In modern times I can think of various theologians, scholars and clergy who were silenced, restricted or at least pressurised, including Edward Schillebeeckx, Yves Congar, Pierre Teilhard de Chardin (a Jesuit, like Mankowski), Charles Curran, Joan Chittister, Rosemary Radford Ruether, Emmanuel Milingo, Anthony de Mello, Leonardo Boff, Gustavo Gutiérrez, Ernesto Cardenal, Matthew Fox, Hans Küng, Elizabeth Johnson, Paul Mankowski, John Wijngaards, Dorothea McEwan, Marcel Lefebvre, Philip Berrigan (brother of Daniel) and Jon Sobrino (another Jesuit). What a waste of talent, wisdom, experience and holiness. I can't believe that it is the wish of the Holy Spirit, who blows where she wills. Why are the Church authorities afraid to be constructively challenged?

Old fashioned nah, progressive left, with a painful vignette like your Hero Francis's penchant for involvement in politics in which he has no papal mandate and no competence especially when it comes to non Europeans or as you might say global northerners, most especially Asians and Africans. If they possess the mere odor of "Traditional Catholics" -throw em under the bus- sacrifice them to the gods of politics and global ecumenism, whats a few million faithful Catholics who will have no truck with the communist "Chinese Patriotic catholic association" Which is about as Catholic as Communism is Capitalist. The crowd chose Barabbas over Christ, Francis chooses President Xi Ping over Cardinal Zen, beware of the "bishop of Rome", His interest as a plenipotentiary collides with out traditional faith and be careful around buses if he can throw 11million faithful Chinese Catholics under the bus just think what he would do to us traditional American sorry global northerners if we let him....JMJ

As far as Good Friday is concerned I would like to see the Tradition stay with John, as far as anti Semite overtures I don't get it of the 23 verses of the passion the word Jew is mentioned 8 times don't see a problem with it, Luke gets his chance next year on Passion Sunday, but ( John 18,1,19: 42)on Good Friday....AMDG....

>96 brone:

Well, that's clear.

>95 brone:

And well, that isn't very clear, to me at least.

>97 John5918: What's not clear about 11million real Catholics being persecuted in China. As far as the African Church is treated, What African Cardinals are represented in the curia. What is the ratio of Catholic Bishops and Cardinals to the population of the Continent as opposed to the Cardinals of the German speaking world where 3/4 of the people aint Catholic and the ones who say they are well we won't go there today. Why Mrs Farrell has more boys in the curia than the whole continent of Africa....JMJ....

I feel sorry for people like brone.

He is far more worried about people 'breaking rules' than he is interested in being joyful in knowing Jesus.

He would have made a good Pharisee 'back in the day'.

I feel sorry for the six elderly Bishops in black jails in China for breaking the rules...JMJ....

"We know from the whole history of theology" writes Edward Schillebeeckx "that it is always dangerous simply to repeat a formulation of faith which was made in a different climate of thought in the past and that if we do it's hardly possible to speak of a living affirmation of faith". (Eucharist) Solve et Coagida. You are right Mankowski was unorthodox as far as that Heresy goes, he opposed this kind of Jesuit orthodoxy making Him "odd deceitful and full of malice" He became known as a Jesuit at large....JMJ....

>98 brone:, >99 MsMixte:, >100 brone:

I'm currently away from home facilitating an ecumenical meeting reviewing the South Sudanese church's peace programme. We have internet but I'm using a clapped out old laptop so my posts might be a bit erratic.

I think one of the problems of the Church and the world is the polarisation of worldviews, which is also connected with identity politics and culture wars. Clearly there are different worldviews amongst regular posters here. One such worldview could be characterised as positive, open, inclusive, optimistic, praxis-based, focusing on the spirit rather than the letter of the law. Another is more negative, closed, exclusive, dogmatic, pessimistic and rule-based. All part of the diversity within our universal Church.

I think we all feel sorry for anybody languishing in jail, particularly those who are innocent, or who are jailed for their beliefs. The Holy Father is supporting those struggling for peace, justice and freedom in many parts of the world, most recently in Ukraine, and closer to home, in South Sudan and DRC. The question perhaps is what is the best way to achieve success in different circumstances. There are times when it is necessary to make strong condemnatory public statements, an approach much favoured in Europe and north America; the Church in its prophetic role often does so. There are other occasions when quiet behind-the-scenes diplomacy is more effective; again the Church has a good record, with St'Egidio being perhaps the most publicly know facet of something which by its nature is not public. I've spent much of the last forty years working with Church leaders on public advocacy for peace, justice and freedom, and we have used different approaches at different times - and indeed part of the objective of the workshop I'm facilitating this week is to review our methods in the light of the current changing context. I'm no expert on China, so I wouldn't be as confident as you to criticise the Holy Father's approach. I'm sure he's being advised by people who know more about it than you or I do, and that will include Chinese Catholics. History will perhaps decide whether his approach was the right one or not, but I would suggest that whatever he is doing it is not motivated by neglect of Chinese Catholics.

You're absolutely correct that the Global South is under-represented in the Vatican hierarchy, and that Europe and north America dominate. Nothing new there, and the same is true in the world at large. We pray that this will change more rapidly, as the demographics make it increasingly clear that the Catholic Church is centred on Africa, Asia and Latin America and not on north America and Europe.

As far as putting me on notice that I embody all the right wing cliches, I answer as Paul answered, ' In my inner self, I am pleased with God's Law. but I observe an another law in my limbs. Miserable person that I am, who is to set me free from this body doomed to death?" This autobiographical out cry of Paul is appropiate for today Paul was proud to be a Pharasee he never expressed any guilt, Paul argues neither side can reproach the other, and that God is on neither side. This was his whole point of his letter to the Romans, Where Paul adressed the divisions between the Gentiles and the Jews....JMJ....

>102 John5918:

"One such worldview could be characterised as positive, open, inclusive, optimistic, praxis-based, focusing on the spirit rather than the letter of the law. Another is more negative, closed, exclusive, dogmatic, pessimistic and rule-based. All part of the diversity within our universal Church."

Some people need that rule-based forma, because it is reassuring to them. Others, like me, see that negative, closed, rule-based worldview as one of the reasons that people are fleeing churches.

I would rather join a community which is positive and open. I've had enough negative thoughts and misogynistic treatment in my lifetime.

Thanks to both of you for indicating where you think you lie on that spectrum which I described. I would probably put myself towards the same end of the spectrum as MsMixte. While it may have some correlation with one's political views, left or right wing, as brone indicates about himself, I don't think these character and personality traits automatically lead to a particular political stance.

Edited to add: There are certainly some humourless, closed-minded and dogmatic leftists, and I used to know an elderly Catholic lady who was as right wing as they come politically, indeed she was an ardent Thatcherite, but extremely open-minded and progressive in terms of both religion and feminism - she was very proud of the time she was ejected from Westminster Cathedral during a (male) ordination for publicly protesting in favour of women priests. Dear Dora, RIP.

>94 John5918:

Another prominent Jesuit recently deceased: Drew Christiansen, SJ, 1945-2022 (Catholic Peacebuilding Network)

Rev. Drew Christiansen, S.J., died on April 6, 2022, at the age of 77. He was a Distinguished Professor of Ethics and Human Development in Georgetown’s School of Foreign Service and a Senior Fellow at the Berkley Center for Religion, Peace, and World Affairs. He also served on the Steering Committee of the Catholic Peacebuilding Network since its founding almost two decades ago. A renowned Catholic social ethicist and prolific writer, he made significant contributions to Catholic thought on the church’s role in international affairs; the ethics of nuclear weapons, war, and peacebuilding; and environmental ethics. He was not content to be an excellent teacher and scholar, however. He also dedicated his life to efforts to contribute to policy debates on pressing issues of justice and peace.

RIP

Cardinal in CAR Advocates for Interreligious Dialogue, Says “indispensable path to peace” (ACI Africa)

At an international colloquium marking the 65th anniversary of the Catholic University of Congo (UCC), in the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC), the Cardinal in the Central African Republic (CAR) has underscored the importance of interreligious dialogue in peace building... “Interreligious dialogue is an indispensable path to peace building in the world today and deserves to be considered an absolute necessity and the deepest aspiration of the human race,” Cardinal Nzapalainga said... with the health crisis and the war in Ukraine and the various armed conflicts in several African countries, “the call for the construction of a school of peace is of vital importance.” To achieve this, the member of the Congregation of the Holy Spirit (Spiritans) said, “It is necessary and inevitable to open up and dialogue with other religions”...

The first conference at this school of peace I hope will be for asking China to stop putting its religious people in jail, next to ask America to stop exporting its anti life policies to Africa, Asia, South America. Last but not least please Jihadists stop killing Christians, how bout that for interreligious dialogue. Until this happens I guess we have the right to defend ourselves or is that against current catholic teaching now....JMJ....

>107 John5918: asking China to stop putting its religious people in jail, next to ask America to stop exporting its anti life policies to Africa, Asia, South America. Last but not least please Jihadists stop killing Christians

Well, Cardinal Nzapalainga and Imam Oumar Kobine Layama are well known for their efforts to prevent religious killings in the Central African Republic, at great risk to their own lives. As for abortion, I think you'll find Islam and Catholicism have similar stances on it. Not sure whether the good people of CAR have much connection with China at the moment, but they're not too impressed with the actions of Russia's Wagner group in their country and their region.

I guess we have the right to defend ourselves or is that against current catholic teaching now

I wouldn't say "now", I would say "since the beginning". Jesus taught us to love our neighbour. When asked "Who is my neighbour" he pointed to the despised alien enemy, a Samaritan. He told us to love our enemy. He taught that when someone strikes us on the cheek, the response should not be self-defence but rather to offer the other cheek. And perhaps his ultimate comment on self-defence was in the Garden of Gethsemane. When they came to arrest Jesus, surely Peter's act of drawing his sword to prevent Jesus' arrest was an act of self-defence which nobody could question - if he'd cut down a couple of soldiers Jesus could have escaped in the ensuing confusion. But no, Jesus told Peter to put away his sword.

This is a very radical teaching of Jesus, but like a number of his more radical teachings, we have over the centuries eroded and warped it. It was too difficult, so we pretended that's not what he really meant. In the early Church his followers took it seriously and eschewed violence, refusing to serve in the military, even if that meant imprisonment or martyrdom. When Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire, the now-Christian Emperor needed Christian soldiers to defend his Empire. Later the popes and bishops themselves became secular princes, so they too needed Christian soldiers to defend their lands. Worse still, we then went through a long phase when it was considered OK to massacre innocent civilians just because they happened to be from a different religion. Then there were those "Catholic elites" that you mention so often, who wanted to protect their personal riches, so violence in defence of property was allowed, despite the fact that Jesus told the rich young man "Go, sell all that you have and give to the poor" and in the parable of the "rich fool" chided the man who wanted to build more barns to protect his wealth.

Thank God that the Church is beginning to reclaim this gospel value. I recently read a quote from one of the luminaries of the nonviolence movement but I can't remember who. Basically they said, "Christians are willing to die, but not to kill". A powerful sentiment, very much in line with that of Jesus.

In my neighborhood growing up interpreting Jesus' turning the other cheek meant was that your best shot.

>111 brone:

Yes, Christianity is counter-cultural - it asks us to go against the norms of our society (neighbourhood), just as Jesus himself did. As I said, very difficult to practice.

The death penalty is in principle consistent with both the natural law and the Gospel. From Gen. 9 to Romans 13 and many points in between-and the Church Maintains Scripture cannot teach moral error....JMJ....

>113 brone:

The Church accepted the death penalty when there appeared to be no other options, although note the example of Jesus saving a woman who had been legally sentenced to death (John 8:1-11). However the trajectory of Church teaching since at least Pope St John XXIII has been that this is no longer the case and thus there is no longer any justification for the death penalty. There is no justification for killing another human being, created in the image and likeness of God.

Why then did not John, Paul, JP, or Benedict change the catechism.

>115 brone:

The Church moves slowly in its discernment about the evolution of its teaching - conservative in the best sense of the word rather than as a culture war identity group label - and we're on a trajectory of papal teaching. Francis is building on and continuing the trajectory of previous popes. The catechism is not itself doctrine. Rather it is a summary or compendium of doctrine. If one reads the actual teaching documents of the popes up to and including Francis, the intent of their teaching is clear. No doubt the catechism will catch up in due course.

Tap dancing

>117 brone:

Facts are "tap dancing"?

When PF speaks you really have to look closely, The new Language introduced into the catechism clearly and explicitly states that the death penalty is intrinsically contrary to either natural law or the gospel. PF is contradicting past teaching. How can these teachings be made consistent with the teaching of Scripture, the Fathers and Doctors of the Church, and previous popes. What earlier generations held as sacred, remain sacred and great for us to, and it cannot be all of a sudden entirely forbidden or even considered harmful. The pope's current statement that the liturgy is "irreversible" (ambiguous) it begs the question of the post Vatll liturgical reform itself If his liturgy is irreversible then how was the work of liturgical reform ever legitimate, since hiding posts oposed to the view of Admin is allowed I propose that some of the tap dancing going on in here be scrutinized....AMDG....

>119 brone:

You seem to reject any development in Church teaching. The death penalty, like the "just war" theory or the acceptance of slavery, has never been held "sacred"; it has been an attempt, which has evolved over time, to deal with a thorny practical issue. And nothing has changed "all of a sudden". The trajectory which has led to the Church understanding that killing (or enslaving) other human beings is not part of God's will has taken hundreds of years, and what has crystallised most recently has taken more than sixty years and half a dozen popes.

I don't think the Holy Father's description of the liturgy as "irreversible" means "unchangeable". Of course the liturgy has changed many times over the millennia. Each change has taken account of earlier tradition - the changes made by Vatican II took account of a number of earlier practices which had been discarded in the last major change nearly 500 years ago. But none of those changes, whether Vatican II, Trent or earlier councils, simply allowed small groups of Catholics who thought they were more faithful to Tradition than the popes, bishops and the sensus fidei of the laity to revert to the previous liturgy as if nothing had happened; while the liturgy will continue to evolve and change, the current liturgy will not simply be "reversed" back to the Tridentine rite. It was quite a remarkable and generous concession even to allow the old liturgy to be celebrated at all, a concession to some elderly people who had celebrated it all their lives (as has been discussed on the Traditionis custodes thread, which would probably be a better place to continue this conversation), but it was not intended to be a rallying point for small groups of younger Catholics who are dissenting from an authoritative teaching council of the Church, namely Vatican II. Note I am not ascribing these views to you; you are probably innocently desiring the old mass without any thoughts of dissent or division, but nevertheless many of your fellow travellers do fall into that error and it is hardly surprising that the Church has issued guidelines on when and how the old mass can be celebrated. If we were sixty years after the Council of Trent and someone wanted to celebrate the old pre-Tridentine liturgies they'd probably have been declared a heretic and excommunicated. Fortunately Pope Francis and his immediate predecessors have been much more charitable and pastoral in their approach.

John, I just learned that our city and Cathedral are going to be visited by Cardinal Kambanda. Do you know him?

For context, Cardinal Kambanda is the first Cardinal from Rwanda. His parents and five of his six siblings were killed in the genocide. He escaped because he had just started a doctorate in Rome.

My church is now about 3/4 central African, mostly Rwandans, and Portland has one of the largest Rwandan communities in the US. I think he's going to say mass at the Cathedral, which is technically a different parish, but it's the same "cluster" and just across town.

As you may imagine, this is a big deal. We don't get a lot of cardinals here. Now and then O'Malley, who is our metropolitan, comes up, but not often. And we've never had anything remotely like this for the Rwandan community.

>121 timspalding:

Sounds like something to look forward to, Tim. I hope you get a chance to meet him. I've found African cardinals to be quite accessible. I don't think I've had the pleasure of meeting Cardinal Antoine Kambanda, and I know very little about him. He was out of the country during the genocide but virtually his whole family was slaughtered. He has spoken out about the complicity in the genocide by some Church members, I believe, and that systemic reconstruction of the Church itself is needed. I'm sure he'll be happy to meet his fellow Rwandans in your cathedral, and they will be overjoyed at his coming.

I had the privilege of attending an ecumenical retreat for South Sudanese church leaders in Kigali seven years ago, where we met a number of leading Rwandan church figures. We heard horrific first hand memories of what had happened in 1994, but also humbling and inspiring stories of courage, forgiveness and reconciliation. One of the things I do these days is a bit of editing for a small Catholic publishing house in Nairobi, and I'm currently editing a manuscript by a Rwandan Jesuit. As a child he survived the genocide, although his family were slaughtered around him, and went on to become a priest and theologian. His reflections on the genocide itself, its roots, the priesthood, forgiveness and reconciliation, and on "theology as autobiography" (or "narrative", perhaps) make for interesting reading, and when the book is published I'll mention it somewhere on LT.

Shireen Abu Aqla: Christian leaders condemn violence at reporter's funeral (BBC)

The Vatican's representative in Jerusalem has accused Israel of "brutally violating" a decades-old agreement to uphold religious freedom. It follows Friday's attack by Israeli police on the funeral of Palestinian-American journalist Shireen Abu Aqla... Monsignor Tomasz Grysa, who represents the Holy See in Jerusalem, said the action was unjustified and unprovoked... Monsignor Grysa said that a 1993 agreement between the Roman Catholic Church and Israel "upholds and observes the human right of freedom of religion, which in this case has been brutally violated". Archbishop Pierbattista Pizzaballa, the top Roman Catholic cleric in the Holy Land, said: "The Israel Police's invasion and disproportionate use of force - attacking mourners, striking them with batons, using smoke grenades, shooting rubber bullets, frightening the hospital patients - is a severe violation of international norms and regulations, including the fundamental human right of freedom of religion"...

Senior Catholic in Israel condemns police actions at Shireen Abu Aqleh funeral (Guardian)

The top Catholic clergyman in the Holy Land has condemned the Israeli police beating of mourners carrying the casket of Al Jazeera journalist Shireen Abu Aqleh, accusing the authorities of violating human rights and disrespecting the Catholic church. Latin patriarch Pierbattista Pizzaballa told reporters that Friday’s incident, broadcast around the world, was a “disproportionate use of force” against a large crowd of people waving Palestinian flags as they proceeded from the hospital to a nearby Catholic church in Jerusalem’s Old City. The attack drew worldwide condemnation and added to the shock and outrage over the death of Abu Akleh, who was killed during an Israel Defence Forces (IDF) operation in the occupied West Bank...

Shireen Abu Aqla was a Catholic. This tragedy highlights an often overlooked aspect of Israeli oppression of Palestinians, namely that it includes persecution of Christians as well as Muslims.

I Have never been a fan of Israeli tactics towards their Catholic citizens, I just wish a Vatican represtentitive would protest Islamic and Chinese abuses...Biden is sending US troops back to Somalia, Do we ever learn?

Will it take a South African Gazillionare to wake America up ? Elon Musk's purchase of the big tech giant Twitter is on hold pun dents on the left are saying it is about money, Musk has not mentioned money, but has mentioned the company is riddled with bots, and Communists. I often wondered when they were going to mention the word Communists again. Since Musk's explanation, yep I even heard a US senator acusse people of this ideology as being right across the aisle. Numerous Popes up to an excluding PF have condemned Atheistic Communism, which aims at the social order cleverly now through "social platforms". Ok Cat out of bag (it was never in) who or what is responsible for this uptick in Communism, many elites, progressives, academicians, won't even use the word, they say Communism fell with the Berlin Wall. Americans are finally waking up to its existance in it's political apparatchik. The struggle for good and evil didn't fall with the Berlin wall it still exists as a sad legacy of the original fall, The ancient sepent, the Tempter has never ceased to deceive mankind with false promises. The greatest tap dancer of all times loves it when we cannot even use the word communism, Satan's greatest triumph in modern times is to get people yes even some of the hiearchy to believe he does'nt exist....AMDG....

>125 brone:

I'd be interested to hear which members of the hierarchy believe Satan doesn't exist, and exactly what they said in this regard.

Eight out of ten US Catholics believe Satan does not exist.

>127 brone:

Ah well, that's what you get in the Church in the Global North! Fortunately the centre of gravity of the Catholic Church is shifting to the Global South. I haven't seen statistics for Africa but I would guess that at least nine out of ten Catholics here probably do believe that Satan exists in some form or other.

Reminds me of an occasion nearly forty years ago when I was sitting under a tree in South Sudan chatting to a local teacher, a well educated man. He asked me, "Is it true that there are people in your country who don't believe in God?" When I answered yes, he just burst out laughing. We unpacked it a bit. He could perfectly understand that people might have different concepts of God, eg Christian, Muslim, Jewish, African traditional, etc, or even multiple gods as in Hinduism, but the idea of not believing in any god at all was to him completely ludicrous.

Statistics also show that it is conservatives who still believe in what the Roman Catholic Church teaches about Lucifer, globalists are to sophisticated to bother with spirits....JMJ....

>129 brone:

I'd be interested to see those statistics, and also to understand what is meant by "globalists" in this context. The Church is globalist - it is catholic and universal.

You know more about globalist then I do, "ah well thats what you get in the church in the global north" I never heard of the global north till I ran into you a globalist....AMDG....

The new show The Vatican has talent has given its coveted Tap Dancing Award to the front runner in the race for the chair in the next conclave. In one of the many financial scandals surrounding this Pontificate, the good Cardinal had this to say, "I felt compelled to address the matter in order to put an end to a controversy that takes away time and resources from our service to the Lord". Translation from the little guy in the pew, Text book Hierarchical coverup. Parolin was instrumental in borrowing 50 million euros in a profit partnership with the Vatican Secretariat and the religious order that owned and operated a hospital and by the way got them selves in 800,000,000 in debt of course all the former administrators are under indictment for embesilment or are in jail. Parolin shady loan drew real scrutiny from euro regulators, guess who comes to the rescue on his shiny chartered plane from the global north yep Uncle Ted McCarrick, Hence the coverup oh and a barrel of money from global north charities, The one Cardinal opposing all this, was a lousy tap dancer, George Pell we all know what happened to George....JMJ....

>131 brone:

Am I a "globalist"? Well, you haven't yet told us what you mean by the term. Labelling people is rarely either useful or accurate, as very few of us fit completely into categories. It's a facet of "culture war" thinking that if one believes certain things or has certain characteristics then one is assumed to also buy into a whole load of other things which one's political opponents believe are part of that monolith. In reality it's just not true.

"Globalisation" has often been associated with global hegemony, the idea that western capitalism and ideals must be spread throughout the world. To follow your trend of putting things into simplistic slogans, to have McDonalds and Disney everywhere in the world. I'm not in favour of that. There are other definitions of "globalisation", eg the process of interaction and integration among people, companies, and governments worldwide, a term used to describe how trade and technology have made the world into a more connected and interdependent place. It describes a reality rather than a political ambition, although it's a reality which is these days proceeding rather patchily. It certainly favours multilateralism as opposed to isolationism and things like Brexit. In these latter descriptions of globalisation, the Church is certainly "globalist", and has been ever since Jesus told his disciples, "Go, therefore, make disciples of all nations" (Matthew 28:19). Paul was probably the first great missionary, and he was followed by many more, going out to the world in various waves of missionaries, most recently the great missionary expansion of the 19th century. The Catholic Church is catholic (universal) and thus is global.

I'm surprised you hadn't heard of Global North and South, but perhaps these are more specialised terms than I had thought. They're very common in academia and in the literature in fields such as peacebuilding, development and human rights. Like most labels they are not set in stone, and they are not strictly geographical terms. The Global North refers to the wealthy industrialised and technologically advanced countries which have dominated the world, most (but not all) of which are in the northern hemisphere. Global South denotes regions outside Europe and North America, mostly (though not all) economically poorer and often politically or culturally marginalised. Various other terms have been used at different times, including "the west", "the eastern bloc", "the Orient", "First" and "Third" Worlds, "developed" and "underdeveloped" (or "developing"), "non-aligned nations", "mission territories", but some of these are now outdated and most of them are also problematic. Global North and South seem to be the current terms of choice when trying to find a short hand way of describing different groups of nations. No doubt others will emerge as the world continues to change.

>132 brone:

I'm afraid very little of that makes any sense to me. There is an investigation going on into financial mismanagement and corruption within the Vatican, which is one of the reasons why Pope Francis is reforming the Curia; indeed it was part of the mandate given to him when elected. Cardinal Pell was one of those who helped to address the issues and bring them out into the open at the behest of the Holy Father, and it is indeed unfortunate that he was derailed by unfounded allegations of sexual abuse. He was the victim of a public backlash against clergy sexual abuse in Australia, and the idea that this was somehow orchestrated by his detractors in the Vatican would be a monumental conspiracy theory. If Cardinal Parolin is implicated in the financial scandal as you allege, no doubt it will come out in the investigation, and it's unlikely that the College of Cardinals would elect him as pope if they thought he was guilty. If you are aware of any evidence that hasn't yet come to light, you would of course have a duty to report it.

The speaker of the house who was recently and graciously received in a special audience by PF, who by the way refused to see the former secratary of state Mike Pompeo, was refused Holy Communion by the Archbishop of San Francisco, His Excellency telling her to repent and to publicly repudiate her out spoken advocasy of Abortion up to and including the 9th month....JMJ....

Cardinal Pell was dropped like a hot potato by the Holy See, abandoned to himself in sham trial set up by a kangaroo court. Which Rome refrained from any intervention, which was its duty. In a real scandal PF went all out in his defense of his protege Zanchetta, even using the hierarchical text book cover up of accusing the victims of perjury, going as far as promoting him to a job no one ever had before, along with Galantino, Zanchetta became de-facto administrators. The portfolio of the Secretariat of State wouldn't land him a job retrieving shopping carts at Walmart. Without undermining the unpresentable characters like Bertone, Maradiague, Pena Parra, and Paglia, living scandals all, coutiers without honor, birds of a feather....JMJ....

>135 brone:

There are indeed questions about the original trial of Cardinal Pell, but to label the Australian justice system a "sham" and a "kangaroo court" is a bit extreme. As I said, there was a populist backlash in Australia against sexual abuse by clergy and this unfortunately appeared to influence the case. However a higher court overruled the lower court decision, so in the end justice was served and Pell was found innocent. It's called "due process", and it worked, although it's always very traumatic for the defendant who has to face that long ordeal. Sexual abuse is a serious matter and there has to be a robust process of investigating and trying all allegations, even if in the end they turn out to be unfounded. You are often critical of the fact that another Cardinal, McCarrick, was not brought to trial earlier, so I would have thought you would understand the necessity to have a thorough investigation of Pell.

As for Pope Francis, I don't think Cardinal Pell was dropped "like a hot potato". If I recall correctly it was much more nuanced than that. Francis continued to support him until it was very clear that he was going to be charged and tried, and then the pope's attitude became "let justice be done by the courts". What else could he do? Most sex abusers turn out to be fine upstanding members of society on the surface, friends or family members, people whom we know and trust, whom we would never have suspected of being an abuser, so while we can offer pastoral support to them, we can't know their guilt or innocence until the case has been investigated. Again, you are very critical of the fact that popes supported Cardinal McCarrick. Perhaps Francis learned a lesson from that mistake?

As for all those other names you mention in connection with "a real scandal", I'm not familiar with the details so it would be helpful if you could post a link so we can all read about it.

Interesting reflection from Fr Richard Rohr today:

Rebuilding from the Bottom Up

For over fifty years as a Franciscan priest, Father Richard Rohr has worked to reawaken Christians to the radical and transformative message of Jesus. It’s a message that is often distorted by culture and even by the Christian tradition itself. Richard reflects:

Our religion is not working well: suffering, fear, violence, injustice, greed, and meaninglessness still abound. This is not even close to the reign of God that Jesus taught. And we must be frank: in their behavior and impact upon the world, Christians are not much different than other people.

Many Christians are not highly transformed people; instead, they tend to reflect their own culture more than they operate as any kind of leaven within it. I speak especially of American Christians, because I am one. But if you are from another country, look at the Christians where you live and see if the same is true there.

Let’s be honest: religion has probably never had such a bad name. Christianity is now seen as “irrelevant” by some, “toxic” by many, and often as a large part of the problem rather than any kind of solution. Some of us are almost embarrassed to say we are Christian because of the negative images that word conjures in others’ minds. Young people especially are turned off by how judgmental, exclusionary, impractical, and ineffective Christian culture seems to be.

Most Christians have not been taught how to plug into the “mind of Christ”; thus, they often reflect the common mind of power, greed, and war instead. The dualistic mind reads reality in simple binaries—good and bad, right and wrong—and thinks itself smart because it chooses one side. This is getting us nowhere.

Throughout the history of Christianity, it would seem Jesus’ teaching has had little impact, except among people who surrendered to great love and great suffering. Could this be the real core of the Gospel? Such people experience God rather than merely have disconnected ideas about God. We need to rely on the mind of mystics now to offer any kind of alternative—contemplative or nondual—consciousness. We need practice-based religion that teaches us how to connect with the Infinite in ways that actually change us from our finite perspectives.

We must rediscover what St. Francis of Assisi (1182–1226) called the “marrow of the Gospel.” ¹ It’s time to rebuild from the bottom up. If the foundation is not solid and sure, everything we try to build on top of it is weak and ineffective. Perhaps it’s a blessing in disguise that so much is tumbling down around us. It’s time to begin again. In the year 1205, Jesus spoke to Francis through the San Damiano cross: “Francis, rebuild my church, for you see it is falling into ruin.” If Jesus himself says the church is falling into ruin, I guess we can admit it also without being accused of being negative or unbelieving. Maybe we have to admit it for anything new and good to happen.

1. Thomas of Celano, The Remembrance of the Desire of a Soul, chapter 158. See Francis of Assisi: Early Documents, vol. 2, The Founder (Hyde Park, NY: New City Press, 2000), 380.

Rep. Mike Thompson @RepThompson | 11:29 AM · May 21, 2022:
Rep. Mike Thompson represents California's 5th Congressional District and chairs the House Gun Violence Prevention Task Force.
https://twitter.com/RepThompson/status/1528035259153010688

This letter from a Catholic Priest friend says it all about Arch Bishop Cordileone’s latest misguided decision:

“I want to write a longer piece about those bishops who seek to keep some from the table of Christ, but for now I will say this: it is not your table (nor mine)… 1/5

Bishops, priests, etc. are neither the hosts nor the bouncers nor the ones who wrote the guest list. The Eucharist is the resurrected body of Christ given for the life of the world… 2/5

Jesus Christ is the one who invites the guests ("all you who labor"); he is the host of those who come; he is the setter of the table; and he is the feast which is shared ("Take this, all of you. this is my body, this is my blood")… 3/5

We are guests at the meal, and sometimes (by his calling) servers. So stay in your lane, please. The wait staff doesn't get to exclude those who want to come. If you don't like the company Christ calls (and, admittedly, it is a rag tag bunch of sinners, one and all), it's… 4/5

you who need to leave the table, not them." 5/5

>138 margd: Thank you. That is beautiful.

>138 margd:, >139 MarthaJeanne:

Yes, the Eucharist us supposed to be a source of grace for all of us who are sinners, not a political "carrot and stick" gambit.

As Pelosi Denied Communion by Bishop, What Pope Said on Refusing Eucharist (Newsweek)

Pope Francis, who is head of the Catholic Church, has previously urged bishops to tread softly on the issue of denying people the Eucharist—which Catholics consider the body of Jesus Christ—and advised the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops against adopting a policy that would have denied communion to President Joe Biden. On September 15, 2021, Francis was asked about the issue of bishops denying pro-abortion politicians the right to participate in Communion and said he had never refused the Eucharist to anyone. "What should a shepherd do? Be a shepherd and not going around condemning or not condemning," the pope said. "They must be a shepherd with God's style. And God's style is closeness, compassion and tenderness. "If we look at the history of the church, we will see that every time the bishops have not managed a problem as pastors, they have taken a political stance on a political problem." While Pope Francis reiterated the Catholic Church's position that "abortion is homicide" he went on to say: "No, I have never denied the Eucharist to anyone, to anyone. I don't know if someone came to me under these conditions, but I have never refused them the Eucharist, since the time I was a priest"...

Archbishop Cordileone says no Communion for Speaker Pelosi over position on abortion (NCR)

Jesuit Fr. Bruce Morrill, a noted sacramental theologian, told NCR that Cordileone is taking a different stance on the Communion issue for Pelosi than Washington Cardinal Wilton Gregory has taken with President Joe Biden, a Catholic who also supports legalized abortion. Gregory has not sought to deny Biden communion. "You could ask the question: Why the need to make it so public?" said Morrill, the Edward A. Malloy Professor of Catholic Studies at Vanderbilt Divinity School. "It is the choice of a bishop about how they handle this, and he’s made this choice and decided to do it very publicly”... Recalling his 2013 apostolic exhortation, Evangelii Gaudium, the pope said that "Communion is not a prize for the perfect," but rather "a gift, the presence of Jesus in his church and in the community. That is the theology"... Morrill said that while Francis has spoken emphatically against abortion, the pope has also not sought to take part in the so-called "culture wars"... "One can ask whether this kind of high-profile singling out of one of the most powerful politicians in the culture is doing just that — wading deeper into the culture wars," said the theologian...

Cardinal Cupich also opposes a policy of denying communion to politicians (Cupich, Gregory oppose policy that could deny Communion to some politicians). There are plenty of bishops and priests throughout the world who, like Pope Francis, would never refuse God's gift of the Eucharist to anyone, and would certainly not use it as a political weapon. As Jesus said in John 8:1-11, let the one who is without sin throw the first stone.

>135 brone:

Is this the one you were referring to?

Vatican airs dirty laundry in trial over London property (AP)

The Vatican’s sprawling financial trial may not have produced any convictions yet or any new smoking guns as prosecutors work through a first round of questioning of the 10 suspects accused of fleecing the Holy See of tens of millions of euros. But testimony so far has provided plenty of insights into how the Vatican operates, with a cast of characters worthy of a Dan Brown thriller or a Shakespearean tragicomedy. Recent hearings showed a church bureaucracy that used espionage, allowed outsiders with unverified qualifications to gain access to the Apostolic Palace and relied on a pervasive mantra of sparing the pope responsibility — until someone’s neck was on the line...

In nearly 50 years since Roe V Wade decision, some of this country's most prominent Catholic politicians have grown steadily more forthright in their support for unrestricted ( killing of the baby in the womb upto and including the 9th month) legal abortion on demand at taxpayers expense. While bishops Cupich, Gregory, ect. trumpet the need for "more dialogue", meanwhile catholic politicians scoff at the Church's moral law, and denigate those who uphold it such as the Archbishop of San Francisco. Show me one active catholic politician who has repented of his support for abortion, and imbraced the pro life cause, after a quiet conversation with his bishop or in Biden's case the Pope, and i'll take the argument for dialogue more seriously....JMJ...

>143 brone: Show me one active catholic politician

Lord David Alton was a leading Catholic Member of Parliament who resigned because he couldn't agree with his party's stance on abortion. He was later appointed a life peer and he is now an independent member of the House of Lords where he continues to campaign against many policies which cause death and misery to human beings, not least abortion.

But that's irrelevant really. I think you and indeed the good Archbishop of San Francisco are confusing a number of issues, which the Holy Father and many other leading Church figures perhaps see more clearly.

The Catholic Church teaches unambiguously that abortion is morally wrong. I think most Catholics take that very seriously in terms of personal moral choices. All sorts of well known people that you appear to disagree with on many issues have made that clear - Pope Francis, President Joe Biden, the late Daniel Berrigan, and many others - although many would argue that it is not the only "pro-life" cause that we should engage with, as a "consistent ethic of life" would also include opposing war, violence, torture, the death penalty, nuclear weapons, gun ownership, human trafficking, domestic and gender-based violence, marginalisation and discrimination, euthanasia, etc and being in favour of poverty reduction, education, universal health care, a social safety net for the poor, environmental concern, etc. Cardinal Bernardin reportedly said in the 1970s "that all policies that needlessly destroy life — abortion, war, capital punishment, euthanasia, and the selfish destruction of the earth and its creatures — are all anti-life and against the fifth commandment, Thou shalt not kill." The contradiction between being pro-life in a single case (abortion) and anti-life in other cases has not gone unnoticed and actually reduces the credibility and effectiveness of the anti-abortion movement.

A second issue is the role of public officials in a pluralistic democracy. Whatever a public official's personal beliefs may be, it is not their role to impose their own religious and moral beliefs on the nation as a whole through legislation. Thankfully in most western countries we do not have theocracies. Legislation is ideally based on popular consent, respecting the will of the people. As I have mentioned before, I have lived in a theocracy, in my case an Islamist one, and theocracy of any sort is not something I would recommend. It is neither correct nor indeed practical for public servants such as Biden and Pelosi to impose their moral beliefs on the whole nation.

A third issue is the role of a bishop, and the Holy Father has given wise guidance on this (cf >141 John5918:). Is the bishop a shepherd or a policeman? In the well known parable, did the shepherd go searching for the lost sheep, or did he impose sanctions on it for getting lost (Matthew 18:10-14)? When Jesus encountered a woman who had legally been sentenced for her sin, he did not say she was right, but his view on carrying out her sentence was "let whoever is without sin cast the first stone" (John 8:1-11). It is not the role of a pastor to enforce the Church's moral code, but to teach, inspire, lead, guide, encourage and to provide sacramental support, through the Eucharist as well as other means such as the Sacrament of Reconciliation. And if, as you say, such dialogue fails, then it is not the role of a pastor to punish.

In addition, it is quite shocking to see a bishop making public his letter to an individual parishioner about her moral choices, and indeed about the Sacrament of Reconciliation. These are matters for the individual and her confessor, not for the tabloid press, social media and the propaganda machine of a particular political party. As the Holy Father infers, by doing this the bishop has "taken a political stance on a political problem"; "wading deeper into the culture wars" as one theologian puts it. This is not the way we expect our pastors to behave.

So yes, Catholics are pretty unambiguously against abortion as one of many pro-life issues, but we should not allow ourselves to be coopted into narrow partisan political agendas.

>133 John5918: globalisation

I came across an interesting description of "globalisation" this morning by the well known Tanzanian Catholic theologian Fr Laurenti Magesa*.

blind imitation of Western cultural values... some of which are cleary destructive. This is most apparent perhaps nowhere else than in the area of sexual ethics among the youth... In the current structures of world trade, Africa (and most of the South) finds itself exploited of its raw materials, on the one hand, and, on the other, becomes - deliberatively through human agency - a dumping ground of inferior goods, toxic waste, experimental or defective medicines and foods and, in the much less controllable environmental sphere, greenhouse gases and acid rain...

So am I a "globalist" in that sense? No. But in the sense expressed by official Church teaching in Gaudium et spes, yes, as all faithful Catholics must be.

In view of the increasingly close ties of mutual dependence today between all the inhabitants and peoples of the earth, the apt pursuit and efficacious attainment of the universal common good now require of the community of nations that it organize itself in a manner suited to its present responsibilities, especially toward the many parts of the world which are still suffering from unbearable want... Already existing international and regional organizations are certainly well-deserving of the human race. These are the first efforts at laying the foundations on an international level for a community of all {people} to work for the solution to the serious problems of our times, to encourage progress everywhere, and to obviate wars of whatever kind. In all of these activities the Church takes joy in the spirit of true brother {and sister} hood flourishing between Christians and non-Christians as it strives to make ever more strenuous efforts to relieve abundant misery... (84)

The present solidarity of {hu}mankind also calls for a revival of greater international cooperation in the economic field... If an authentic economic order is to be established on a world-wide basis, an end will have to be put to profiteering, to national ambitions, to the appetite for political supremacy, to militaristic calculations, and to machinations for the sake of spreading and imposing ideologies... (85) Christians should cooperate willingly and wholeheartedly in establishing an international order that includes a genuine respect for all freedoms and amicable brother {and sister} hood between all... (88) Therefore, to encourage and stimulate cooperation among {people}, the Church must be clearly present in the midst of the community of nations both through her official channels and through the full and sincere collaboration of all Christians—a collaboration motivated solely by the desire to be of service to all... (89)

* African Theology Comes of Age: Revisiting Twenty Years of the Ecumenical Symposium of Eastern Africa (ESEAT), 2010, pp 45-56.

Cardinal Zen Appears in Court in Hong Kong, Enters Plea of Not Guilty Alongside Co-accused

Cardinal Joseph Zen appeared in court in Hong Kong on Tuesday, a date which is the World Day of Prayer for the Church in China. The 90-year-old former Catholic bishop of Hong Kong was charged in court on May 24 with four other prominent democracy advocates who were all trustees of the 612 Humanitarian Relief Fund, which helped pro-democracy protesters to pay their legal fees. All five entered a plea of not guilty to the charge of failing to register the humanitarian fund with the police, according to AFP...

Relics of Two South Sudanese Nuns Introduced in Altar of New African Martyrs in Rome

The relics of two South Sudanese Catholic Sisters who were among five people killed following a road ambush in August 2021 have been placed in the sanctuary of the new African martyrs in a church in Rome. The relics of Sr. Mary Daniel Abut and Sr. Regina Roba Luate were solemnly introduced in the altar of the new African martyrs in the Basilica of St. Bartholomew on Monday, May 23...

I knew Sr Mary Daniel quite well. RIP.

Both from ACI Africa

Missionary Dioceses Need Support with Abuse Prevention Protocols: Vatican Cardinal (ACI Africa)

Cardinal Luis Antonio Tagle has said that the Church needs to support missionary dioceses with expertise to implement the sex abuse prevention protocols mandated by the pope. The prefect of the Vatican Congregation for the Evangelization of Peoples said in an interview with a French television station that his dicastery was working to “follow up” with Catholic bishops’ conferences on their abuse prevention measures. “Maybe in established churches, it is easier for them to form the committees, the commissions, because then you have trained people,” Tagle said. “And this is where we need to assist the young churches because some of them are just developing … They need psychologists. They need canon lawyers.” He added: “And this is where also the universal Church would help each other. Those with expertise can help form the human resources in other parts of the world”...

It will soon be a year since the infamous Moto propio Traditionis Custodes. This Moto propio constitutes a declaration of war, but also a recognition of defeat. It is an apparent act of strength that covers up weakness and incompetence. This operation began a year ago based on deception and therefore doomed to fail. This is not a fatal blow to the Roman rite, but is euthanasia of the modern rite. It was not in the least a blow causing an irreversible effect, but a vivifying sizing up of the ancient traditions- which because of the hatred it arouses among liberation theologist, modernists, naturalist, and progressive fringes of the hierarchy- is confirmed as the most beautiful thing this side of heaven, transmitted to us by our fathers and which we will transmit to our children, even if we have to bathe it with our blood to do so. The cancelled Cardinal Sarah, sees in the Moto propio a questioning of what he calls the "Credibility of the Church". In reality it is questioning the "hermeneutics of continuity" advocated by Benedict and the coexistence of the two rites desired by Summorum Pontificum...AMDG...

>148 brone:

What a strange and divisive post, and what a strange and misguided lens through which to view Church teaching. It's full of meaningless hyperbole. A "declaration of war"? Good grief. Was the Council of Trent's reform of the liturgy a "declaration of war"? A "cancelled" cardinal? As far as I know, Cardinal Sarah is still a cardinal.

There is a whole thread on Traditionis custodes, so I don't want to comment too much here, but I think your one line summary of Summorum pontificum is flawed. According to my reading of it, it is not arguing for "the coexistence of the two rites", but only that the "extraordinary" one might be "permitted". It makes it quite clear that rites "must be in accord with the universal Church", gives some history of the development of liturgical rites over the centuries, affirms that "The Roman Missal promulgated by Pope Paul VI is the ordinary expression of the lex orandi (rule of prayer) of the Catholic Church of the Latin rite" which was "willingly received by the bishops as well as by priests and the lay faithful", but recognises that some Catholics "continued to be attached with such love and affection to the earlier liturgical forms which had deeply shaped their culture and spirit". Out of concern for the "pastoral care" of these Catholics Pope John Paul II "granted the faculty of using the Roman Missal published in 1962", and certain conditions were laid down. Traditionis custodes has not revoked Summorum pontificum and has not banned the use of the old rite. It has simply revised the conditions in the light of certain errors and abuses which had crept in, notably the use of the old rite by some practitioners (not you, of course) as a rallying point for dissent against certain Church teachings and as a source of division within the Church.

Your post does appear to fall into the category of dissent and division. There's no harm in disagreement with Church teaching, but creating division and using terms like "declaration of war" is harmful to the unity of the Church.

Dissent yes division nah,sensus fidelium is what it is. Here is what your dissention is and why we dissent. You cannot give Holy Communion to Abortionists. to those that publicly support Abortion, and to those who provide it, to those who have divorced and remarried. Dissenters are right now suffering in silence, we need to object and I do. The laity the sensus fidelium are the common sense among the laity who have accepted the magisterial teachings of the Church which is the foundations of our faith, having accepted that when they hear something that is contrary to the magisterial teaching of the Church, this impulse, this sensus fidelium causes us to speak out and say no, "that is not true, don't say that". Like the Arians of the 4th c, were finally defeated, the Castorites of this c will be to....JMJ... Don't be so shocked at the nick names Americans are forever giving people nick names its called freedom of speech....

>150 brone:

I think you misconstrue what sensus fidelium is. It is not a licence for small groups of dissenters to cause division. The teaching of the Church is accepted by the vast majority of the faithful, and those who disagree are free to express their loyal dissent. Unless of course they are in favour of women's ordination, where the Church has banned (in your words, perhaps, "cancelled") discussion.

freedom of speech

Freedom comes with responsibility. One can disagree with someone with charity and without needing to insult them with derogatory, pejorative and in some cases homophobic labels.

I knew you'd get around to one of the phobics sooner or later....JMJ....

Bishop Robert McEroy the leftist bishop of San Diego was elevated to wear the red hat on sunday, He is the ideological ally of PF. His montra is " the death toll from abortion is immediate, but the long term death toll from unchecked climate change threatens the future of humanity", his support for LBGQT+ is right up the pope's alley to, watch out brone this could be contrued as some kind of phobia and uncharitable....JMJ.....

>155 brone: " the death toll from abortion is immediate, but the long term death toll from unchecked climate change threatens the future of humanity"

Sounds like a consistent ethic of life. Abortion is not the only thing which kills. I've come across some of Bishop McElroy's writings. He seems eminently sensible and reasonable, eschewing a simplistic single-issue stance, and shows a great deal of pastoral concern for the homeless, migrants and other marginalised groups. A good choice for cardinal.

McElroy is a ideological ally of Francis l who supports lbgq+ and knew of the abuses committed by Uncle Ted and said nothing. Archbishop Roche anti traditionalist head of the liturgy, and pro lbgq Steiner of Brazil to name a few sycophants all. with all these Francis look alikes I wonder who will become Francis ll....AMDG....

>157 brone:

Again, why do you have to create divisions and disparage people? It might be helpful to address issues rather than continuously posting disparaging comments against individuals. When I studied logic many years ago I learned that ad hominem is one of the classic logical fallacies, using personal attacks rather than logic or rational arguments.

Within the Church there are no ideologies - those belong to politics and culture wars. In Africa, "uncle" is a term of great respect, so it's interesting that you use it of Cardinal McCarrick, whom I thought you didn't like. "Pro-LGBQ+"? You mean trying to love and provide pastoral care for those who are on the margins of society and of the Church, for all the lost sheep and sinners? Let me think, who was the other famous figure who did that? Oh yes, it was Jesus. And yes, McElroy has written, as I believe have Pope Francis, Cardinals Gregory and Cupich, and many others, that if we were to refuse communion to sinners then there are none of us who would be able to receive it. Our communion rails would be empty. As Jesus said in John 8:1-11, let whoever is without sin throw the first stone. I'm certainly in no position to throw stones; are you? Archbishop Roche is not "anti-traditionalist", because the Church is traditional by its very nature - unless you mean he disagrees with a small group of dissenting Catholics who are using the liturgy to try to divide the Church and who often self-identify as "traditionalist"? Sycophants? Do you really believe that bishops who have spent their lives as pastoral leaders, in many cases having to take prophetic stances in the face of society and even some in their own Church, are "sycophants"? A bishop in his own diocese is pretty much independent except in cases of gross misconduct, and he doesn't have to curry favour with anybody, including the pope. "Francis lookalikes"? Well, let's hope God gives us more pastors who look more like Francis, shepherds who smell like the sheep, to use his own words.

Why not give communion to everyone they are handing it out like necco wafers to Moslem politicians at the Catholic congress clown show in stuttgart. not a word said about that but when an Archbishop of a major diocese refuses to give Holy Communion to a "sinner" its the shot heard round the world. All bishops must protect the Holy Eucharist from sacrilege, the Archbishop's actions in San Francisco are correct, it is appropiate for him to discipline, persistent, obstinate, manifest pro abotion legislators. The Archbishop conducted private communication with the legislator, imploring her to make her conscience correct with the Magisterial teachings of the Church. She refused to even meet with him publicly saying she rejects the inffallible teaching of the church, the Archbishop as priest then took the necessary steps to issue 'canonical notification' to address the scandal she has caused. Catholic legislators who are members of the archdiocese and who continue to support procured abortion and euthanasia may not present themselves, until such time as they publicly renounce their support for these unjust practices, (canon 915)....JMJ....

>159 brone:

The Catholic Church is made up of 1.3 billion people. People are different. Each one of us is a product of both nature and nurture, influenced by our culture, society, education, life experience, etc. Hence we are all different. That diversity is part of the beauty of the universal Church (and indeed of humanity in general). It's something to celebrate. It means there are people who will see things differently, and it gives a fuller and more comprehensive view than if we are all only looking at it through a single lens.

There are some who value retributive justice, legalism, scrupulous attention to abstract doctrine, following the letter of the law, nostalgia for the past, etc. There are others who favour a pastoral approach, restorative justice, mercy, love, forgiveness, praxis over theory, the spirit of the law, looking to the future, etc. I favour the latter, as I believe does the Holy Father. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you appear to favour the former. So what? That's life, that's diversity, that's the fullness of the universal Church. Why turn it into a culture war? Why try to insist that one view is "right" and others are "wrong"? Why bring in hatred and divisiveness? Why can't we just live with the diversity, even if we find it a little uncomfortable at times?

But on to a more wholesome expression of the Church:

Ensure “no one dies from lack of basic food”: Catholic Bishops in Africa to Governments (ACI Africa)

In the statement signed by the President of SECAM, Phillip Cardinal Ouédraogo, the Bishops appeal to African governments and humanitarian organizations operating in Africa “to do everything possible to ensure that no one dies from lack of basic food... We also encourage the development of effective policies and programs that value local food production and combat food waste, protect agricultural land and ensure its access to the peasant population... This calls for respect for social justice and the practice of solidarity, which prevents the monopolization of financial means by the richest, and promotes the inclusion of every man and woman in the society, as well as their fundamental dignity... By sharing our bread with those who are hungry, we witness to God's will to satisfy the hunger of the world and we allow God to meet the needy through our gestures of sharing and generosity... Generosity, sharing and solidarity do not impoverish, but are generators of life, and life in abundance... It is therefore our mission as disciples of Jesus today to fight against human hunger and to do everything in our power to give back life and hope to all those who live in misery, suffering, and despair...Therefore, we, the disciples of Jesus today, are invited to break the logic of the selfish hoarding of goods and learn to share with others. Indeed, goods are a gift from God for all people and they belong to everyone... May Our Lady, Queen of Africa, intercede for us and may the Lord grant us days of plenty and peace.”

While some in the richer nations are obsessing about the conditions under which a defunct liturgical rite may be used, or about whether one is "conservative" or "progressive", bishops in Africa are talking about the very survival of their people. It reminds me of a South Sudanese protestant church leader who headed the council of churches for many years and with whom I worked closely (and I am currently publishing his biography). Many years ago he was asked by some protestant missionaries whether ecumenism didn't water down denominational beliefs. His reply, which I have heard him repeat often since then, was (and I paraphrase), "We are struggling for our very survival in the face of war, famine and an Islamist dictatorship. Denominations are a western invention; you are the ones who had the Reformation! Our denomination is survival".

Note incidentally that in their statement the African Catholic bishops are referencing a number of features of Catholic Social Teaching - social justice, solidarity, inclusion, human dignity, the common good - and calling not just for charity (giving food to the hungry) but for a systemic approach, the "development of effective policies and programs", and are also indirectly critiquing global economic systems, "the monopolization of financial means by the richest" and "the selfish hoarding of goods". They are perhaps also indirectly referring to the Gospel story of the multiplication of loaves and fishes when they speak of generous sharing, a sentiment which we're told Pope Francis expressed yesterday, although I haven't seen his words (mentioned here, post #173).

Thank God for Africa, It was the north africans that brought latin to the Church in Rome....JMJ....

You use the old Motte and baille fallacy with your rhetoric, Acussing me of hatred and divisiveness because i defend the Magesterial teachings of the Church. Thats when your in the baily when I refute you you always retreat behind the motte, Throwing over the battlements buzz words like social justice,human dignity, common good, implying i'm against these things. I speak out from the bailley not hiding behind a moderators motte. I speak out against catholic schools who push the LBGTQ+ agenda as if it is Church teachings and like all leftists you don't like it and throw personal calumny at me. For example The Catholic Church in America traditionaly hails the month of June as the Month of the Sacred Heart, one statement from a "prestigious" catholic college greets its students this way on Jun 1st. Love is Love, Happy Pride month we are proud to be an ally of the LBGTQ+. How nice you would say. What does the statement really mean? It means anything you choose to call love, that is love and so it should be affirmed, whether it is homosexual acts, what else is there to affrirm, certainly not the Sacred Heart. well that's what the + means at the end of the acronym get ready for LGBTQQiA12SP for I wonder if you'll be inclusive when you decipher that Alphabet soup somehow I think you will for the "common good".....AMDG.....

Happy Birthday to the One, Holy, True, Apostolic Catholic Church. " the understanding of the sacred dogmas must be perpetually retained which Holy Mother Church once declared; and there must Never be a recession from that meaning under the specious name of deeper understanding". Tomorrow is the feast of Mary Holy Mother of the Church, My wife and I will attend mass in honor of this feast instituted By the Holy Father in 2018....JMJ....

>163 brone:

With all due respect, I am pointing out to you what the teaching of the Church actually is, citing references to papal teaching and other Church documents. "Social justice, human dignity, common good" are not "buzzwords", they are Church doctrine. I'm also coming from a pastoral perspective rather than a legalistic one, and pointing out the need for charity rather than setting up confrontational divisions. There is room for diversity within the Church, whether you like it or not. Personally I like it, but I wish that those who view it through a different lens could just accept that diversity rather than feeling the need to create division and bad feeling. Unity in diversity is important. If my view is right it doesn't necessarily mean that yours is wrong, and vice versa. The Church is not a zero sum game.

As you say, June is traditionally the month of the Sacred Heart. As the Holy Father has said, the Sacred Heart is "source of love and peace... Open yourselves to this love and take it ‘to the ends of the earth,’ giving testimony of the goodness and mercy that flow from the Heart of Jesus” (link). Amen.

I don't believe I "throw personal calumny" at you. I think once again you misinterpret disagreement as being a personal attack. I try to comment on what you post, not on you as a person, and I try not to use pejorative and disparaging labels about anybody, but my apologies if anything I write can be interpreted as such. But if you are upset because I disagree with you and I post rational and factual responses to your posts, well, I'm sorry, but that's the nature of a conversation.

Socialism, like all errors, contains some truth(which, moreover, the supreme pontiffs have never denied), it is based nevertheless on a theory of human society peculiar to istself and therefore is irreconcilable to true Christianity. Religious socialism, christian socialism, are contradictory terms. It is save to conclude that those who follow these doctrines are mistaken:- either their grasp of the doctrines of Christianity or of socialism will be found to be imperfect, or else their mental habits will appear to be so lacking in discipline that they are content with the profession of belief in incompatible principles....JMJ....

>167 brone:

Which is precisely why most of us who post in this group do not espouse whatever vague all-encompassing meaning that you ascribe to socialism. Is it what is described in the Acts of the Apostles 4:32-35: "All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had. With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus"? That expression of "socialism" would indeed be a powerful testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus.

I get the sense that what most of us actually favour in practice is the sort of mixed economy which was prevalent in parts of northern Europe, especially Scandinavia, UK and the Low Countries, at least until the era of Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan, when there was a new rightwards push which we haven't yet recovered from. In such an economy there is private property, profit, capitalism, but there is also a degree of state supervision and/or ownership of essential public utilities such as roads, railways, electricity, gas, water, sewage, etc (just a thought - aren't roads in the USA owned by the government? Does that make you all closet socialists?) There is universal free health care and education, although private health care and education also exist as an option, and some sort of social security safety net for the poor. The rights of workers and their trade unions (labor unions on your side of the Pond) are respected. It actually worked very well, but sadly has been largely dismantled now. It is a system which is very much in tune with Catholic doctrine which acknowledges the right of private ownership but also insists on the priority of the common good.

If you reject anything to do with socialism because it is based "on a theory of human society peculiar to itself", then similarly you have to reject capitalism, which is also based on a theory of human society. Some Christians, including some Catholics, would argue that there can be a "Christian capitalism"; why do you reject the idea of "Christian socialism", particularly when the latter actually draws its inspiration not from "a theory of human society" but from scripture as I have quoted above?

>167 brone: Have you read this?

https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/justpeace/documents/rc_pc...

>169 MsMixte:

Thanks for drawing our attention to this compendium. A well-thumbed and much underlined copy sits by my desk. A very useful collection of Catholic doctrine.

Nicodemus was a sophisticated scholar of his day, much like scholars of every age, he was, nevertheless, perplexed by the sublimity of the doctrine that he was hearing from the One Whom he called Master. His interest as a scholar had not been in personal holiness, but in the glory of an earthly kingdom. He asked the question: How can such things come to be?

>170 John5918: It's a good read. I figured you would have read it, and perhaps now that there's a link, other people might dip their toes in and refresh their views on the subject.

Socialism is only concerned with human operations, as for example architecture is with buildings, therefore it is incompatible with sacred doctrines that are chiefly concerned with God, of whom man is the handiwork not societies made by men....AMDG....

>173 brone: Who is tap dancing now?

You should review the material at the link I provided.

>173 brone: Thanks for making me find again this long lost link: https://inside-politics.org/2012/02/20/the-straw-man-fallacy/

>175 bnielsen:

Thanks. That's a good description of the straw man fallacy which we see so often here.

Socialism it may well happen that what in itself is the more certain is in fact the less certain on account of the weakness of our intellect which is dazzled by the light of utopia, yet the slenderest knowledge of sacred dogma is more desirable than socialism a lesser thing and godless at that....JMJ....

>177 brone: Why do you say socialism is godless? Changing St. Thomas Aquinas's quote doesn't make it so.

The evils of socialism cannot be remedied even in its most moderate form. "we have summoned communism and socialism again to judgement and have found under all its forms, even the most moderate, to wander from the gospel" ....AMDG....

>179 brone: Are you quoting someone? You really should give a link for your quotes, otherwise there's no point in your 'quoting' someone.

Why are you afraid of people wishing to examine the source of your statements? You aren't quoting from the Bible, so show us the work.

If you want to reject socialism, what form of society do you prefer?

Capitalism is certainly not a good option for Christians. See Matthew 6:24. "You cannot serve God and money."

I see the term Homosexuality popping up everywhere, what exactly is homosexuality?....JMJ....

>182 brone: what exactly is homosexuality?

A red herring that has nothing to do with this conversation? A ploy that allows you to avoid discussing an issue which you yourself introduced? "Tap dancing"?

How hostile you are

I don't find John at all hostile.

Thanks, >185 MarthaJeanne:. It certainly wasn't intended to be hostile. Irony, perhaps. My intention was only to encourage brone to actually engage in a conversation which they started in the first place. But my apologies, >184 brone:, if it could be construed as hostile. Would you now care to enlighten us on what type of socialism you were attacking when you introduced it into this thread? It doesn't seem to match the type of socialism to which we are referring, inspired by the gospels and Catholic doctrine.

I thought post 167 was not bad, knowing youse guys will never agree with me so be it. Let me expand a bit on socialism. Cuba, Nicaragua, Zimbabwe, Nigeria, Guinea, Venezuela, N Korea, all style themselves Socialists, in each case, the result has been " rule by an elite" that degenerates into rule of the few or even by one often with the democratic title of president with that ominous subtitle "for life". Hitler and Stalin thought of themselves as Socialists. The Nazi's were the Nationalist Socialist Party, Stalin was the Soviet Socialist Republic, accept for the racial animus in Hitler's plan they were both the same, their non aggression pact was deemed to carve up Europe into Socialist satellite states. You ask me what kind of socialism I don't like how bout every kind they are all based on the above. I ask all my political leftists, catholic intellectuals, progressives, and liberation theologians here, " what is it about socialism that casts such a spell on you that you refuse to acknowledge history, the answer is simple history is less and less a discipline or when taught it is taught with leftist bias, to counter this influence some of us Catholics must speak out and disagree wit youse guys....JMJ....PS will your highandmightinesses allow me to move on to another sore subject swept under the rug by the Vatican that would make the luxury london scandal look like an usher nicking a few bucks from the poor box....

>185 MarthaJeanne: Nor do I.

I do find that some members really don't know how to carry on an elucidating conversation.

>187 brone:

So what you're actually against is autocratic regimes, "'rule by an elite' that degenerates into rule of the few or even by one often with the democratic title of president with that ominous subtitle 'for life'"? I think we'd all agree with you on that, and certainly Catholic doctrine calls for participation and good governance, not dictatorship. It has happened, and is still happening in many countries, regardless of which political label the elites choose. I've lived under three military dictatorships and two autocratic regimes, including one self-avowed "president for life", and none of them were "socialist". There have been as many right wing dictatorships and autocratic regimes as left wing ones - look at Germany, Italy, Spain, Greece, Portugal and a number of Latin American countries during the last century. German Nazism claimed the title "socialist" but in fact is generally considered to have been a right wing fascist ideology, in which liberals, communists and socialists were persecuted along with many other groups. And in the current century, look how close a right wing president got to overturning democracy in your own country just a couple of years ago, while right wing state governments across your nation continue to attack democracy by limiting voting rights. No, sorry my friend, but socialism has no monopoly on dictatorships and other autocratic regimes, nor on oppression, violence and anti-democratic policies.

But see how it is more complex than simple labels? Once we unpack the labels and slogans, we find we are in complete agreement. We all reject "'rule by an elite' that degenerates into rule of the few or even by one often with the democratic title of president with that ominous subtitle 'for life'", of whatever ilk.

Edited to add: I think it's also important to notice that many violent liberation struggles began with good intentions, as a perceived last resort against oppression - I myself tacitly supported one for 22 years in Sudan. Many of these would have had positive socialists ideals and might legitimately have been called "socialist" in their early stages. But one of the dynamics of violent conflict is that ideals and values quickly get smothered by the practical exigencies of fighting asymmetric warfare against ruthless and powerful regimes which have no such ideals and respect no values except utilising and maintaining their own power. By the time such a liberation movement attains "victory" and gets into power, it is usually unrecognisable - it has absorbed militaristic, authoritarian, hierarchical, undemocratic, non-transparent, often misogynistic characteristics and has become a military institution rather than a people-centred liberation movement. This is one of the lessons of evidence-based research*, that not only do nonviolent struggles succeed twice as often as violent ones, but the ensuing post-struggle society following a nonviolent struggle is far more likely to be democratic, peaceful, stable and respectful of human rights than after a violent one.

Incidentally, I'm a little surprised that you include Nigeria as a socialist state. According to Stears Business, an African business intelligence company, "It is difficult to define which system drives the Nigerian economic model. The argument that it is capitalist will not stand" yet "Key elements of the socialist system are also missing in the Nigerian socio-economic climate", all of which "suggests that Nigeria is trying to work as a mixed economy, a system incorporating both capitalist (free market function) and socialist ideals". As I've mentioned before, this would broadly describe a number of northern European economies until the Thatcher-Reagan era.

* I reference again Why Civil Resistance Works by Erica Chenoweth and Maria Stephan.

Tomorrow being Father's day allow me to change the subject,(the last time I tried I got yelled at) We all proclaim to be Roman Catholics, most anyways, Did the Virgin Mary receive into herself One previously existent, who had been in the beginning God the Word dwelling with God eternally?....AMDG....

More Christians are murdered while worshiping in Nigeria adding to the 900 murdered since Jan. 2022 and over 4650 in recent years, Making Nigeria the most lethal land in the world for a Christian to live. Yesterday 3 more murdered and 30 kidnapped by violent Muslim extremists in Kaduna state @ St Moses Catholic Church, of course the government under the complacent President Muhammadui Buhari issued the standard outrage we'll bring em to justice type letter. The Bishop of Oyo has forcefully criticized Buhari "for his inaction in the face of the killing of Christians". Sadly I don't see any response from the Vatican we might offend the "religion of peace"....JMJ....

Not sure where you're looking, but there has certainly been plenty of reaction from both the Vatican and the Nigerian Church to these killings. I'm travelling at the moment without my laptop so I can't post things easily, but I'll post some of them next week if you're interested.

Velvet mafia Cardinal Matteo Zuippi a candidate for the white cassock or if Francis has his way the business suit. Is proud to be the first priest in Italy to bless in church two men straight from the registry office as man and man, How important for a Cardinal of the church to perform this important milestone....JMJ.... Sacred Heart of Jesus have Mercy on us sinners...AMDG...

>193 brone:

Can you explain the term "velvet mafia", please? I presume it is pejorative.

A term given to a cabal or lobby of homosexuals,been around along time,we all know that a homosexual agenda lobby exists in the Vatican Francis himself admitted it back in 2013, The only thing pejorative is a Cardinal of the Holy Roman Catholic Church blessing something the Church has condemned as wrong....JMJ....

This particular member of the Velvet mafia was named head of the Italian bishop's conference two weeks ago by the Pope....JMJ....

>195 brone:

Hm. "We all know" is usually a precursor to something for which no evidence is produced and which views a complex issue through a very narrow lens. The issue for many pastors is not whether the Church views homosexuality as right or wrong, but how the Church provides pastoral care to her members, regardless of who they are or what they do. We are all sheep who have gone astray.

>196 brone:

As far as I know the head of a national bishops' conference is chosen by its members, not appointed (or "named") by the pope.

Speaking of precursor today's feast day is the solemnity of saint John the Baptist his feast day is usualy tomorrow but he got bumped by the Sacred Heart's feast day but "we all know that". Saint John lost his head for condemning an illicit marriage, Bishops who bless man to man marriages today are pastoral care givers, some argue that we are all sinners so its OK. St John was to conservative anyway....JMJ....

>198 brone:

I'm surprised you think John the Baptist was conservative, even too conservative. I think the gospels portray him as being very radical, and his preaching certainly challenged establishment figures.

According to the Pope today's radicals are conservatives, like John we challenge establishment figures, I see an ole idol of yours Fr Rohr dusted off one of his old habits for a private visit with the Pope Hopefully there will be no campfires in the vatican garden dancing around the fire seven times till they get to the Presence in the center maybe a pachamama left over... Hopefully the pope will take the famous new age priest on a reintroduction to the stations of the Cross for an indulgence.....AMDG.....

>200 brone:

Can you cite a source for that opinion attributed to the pope, please?

I suppose it's not surprising that a pope who chooses the name Francis should have an affinity with Franciscans such as Fr Rohr. But I wonder why you choose to present this in a disparaging way, suggesting I have idols, rather than simply saying that you disagree with an author that I happen to like?

The Bishop of Rome who called his friend Joe Biden as Joe puts it a "good catholic" Joe the devout is all in a rage tonight as 5 Roman Catholic Judges one a daily communicant overturned the 50 year old "law of the Land" Roe vs Wade sending it back to the states. These justices have been subject to abuse, intimidation, and one assassination plot by leftist bullies, since word of this decision was leaked weeks ago Pregnancy help offices, Catholic Churches, statues have been vandalized and firebombed by these thugs, Not a word from Rome which disdains us as restorationists. What the Real Roman Catholics on the SCOTUS did was restore our constitutional republic. From the progressive socialists, the velvet mafia, and the galen mafia the silence will be deafening....JMJ....

>202 brone:

There are thugs on all sides once one descends into a culture war. For many years there has been intimidation in the USA of those who were exercising their then legal right to access abortion, including physical assaults and even murder of doctors and other health care workers. Now it is no longer legal and you have achieved your political aims, I might expect you to gloat, however uncharitable that attitude would be, but it seems you still feel the need to attack those who disagree with you. Sad. It was a famous right winger who called for magnanimity in victory.

Typical maxist reaction blame us for the crimes they commit....AMDG....

>204 brone:

What on earth has this got to do with Marxists?

There are no thugs working in pregnancy help clinics there are no thugs praying the rosary daily to end this abortion on demand, the justices who made the decision are not thugs, Maxists always accuse the truth with a lie such as dismissing this carnage to a "culture war" were is the support for the averege American Catholic who through their prayers this abomination is no longer the law of the land. saving one child's life is a victory yet you call it a political aim, again trying to turn the table implying an under current of right wing fanaticism in an extremely Catholic and Pacific movement. Is it that you and the liberationist left in the Church are unhappy about this decision?....AMDG....

>206 brone:

You are the one who raised the issue of "thugs" assaulting and intimidating people in this particular political disagreement. I merely pointed out that there has been assault and intimidation by some "thugs" on both sides, including murder of health care providers. I would have thought we could be in agreement that violence and intimidation are not acceptable whichever side of a political debate one is on in a pluralistic democracy.

>208 margd:

Thanks, margd. A thoughtful piece which basically describes a consistent ethic of life and warns against the polarisation of a culture war

You may not be interested in the culture war, but the culture war is interested in you and everybody else. Vat II teaches us we must not pigeon-hole human beings by race, ethnicity, chromosomal identity, or object of sexual attraction. So if Catholics take this seriously we will refuse to buckle under to and in fact resist those cultural aggressors who think of human beings as twitching bundles of morally equal desires. Catholics who take the council seriously work to legally effect Vat II 's teachings that "Abortion, euthanasia,... and mutilation ( girls at age 13 now getting double mastectomies in the name of "trans" rights). A poison civilization debases its perpetrators as well as the victims and effect the Honor of the Creator....JMJ....

>210 brone:

Yes, unfortunately the culture warriors try to co-opt everybody in their crusade. The voices of charity and reason which argue for people to respect others and find ways of getting along with each other even though they have different worldviews and political persuasions get marginalised and lost as the extremists create division and set up whole identity groups as the enemy.

Vatican praises U.S. court abortion decision, saying it challenges world (Reuters)

The Vatican's Academy for Life on Friday praised the U.S. Supreme Court's decision on abortion, saying it challenged the world to reflect on life issues, but also called for social changes to help women keep their children. The Vatican department also said in a statement that the defence of human life could not be confined to individual rights because life is a matter of "broad social significance"...

Contrary to what Oakland's bishop says, Cardinal-designate McElroy abhors abortion (NCR)

it is depressing to see how some bishops and bishop whisperers are engaging in the kind of culture war tactics that not only impede affective collegiality but traffic in nastiness of a kind never before seen on public display... Oakland Bishop Michael Barber, who proceeded to misrepresent McElroy's position on legalized abortion and to do so in a way that did little to support community, fraternity, unity and mutual support among the hierarchy. Rocca wrote, "{Barber} said that Bishop McElroy acknowledges the injustice of abortion but evidently thinks 'it's not wrong enough that you need say or do anything about it or interact with the politicians who are publicly promoting it.' " That is a slur. At San Diego's Walk for Life earlier this year, McElroy acknowledged the prospect of overturning Roe v. Wade, which would return the issue of abortion to state legislatures. He said, "It's going to be a very hard road in California, but at the same time for our country this is a really wonderful moment." McElroy also said, "This is a moment not to cease or downsize our efforts but to redouble them here {in California}." Does that sound like someone who doesn't think abortion is not very important? What McElroy opposes is weaponizing the Eucharist (he coined the phrase) in an effort to get legislators to oppose abortion rights, as Cordileone has not only advocated but, in the case of House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, actually implemented. The issue is not abortion. The issue is whether the act of legislating about abortion entails an intrinsic evil. And legislating inevitably involves prudential judgments. McElroy delivered a lecture on precisely this point that NCR published in 2020. Such distinctions are lost on bishops like Barber and Cordileone...

Bishop McElroy classic leftist tactic is throw the race card "those who deny pro abortion politicians communion are overlooking racism" McElroy has multiple degrees, moral theology being one of them he might have a phd in obfuscation his essay on the subject is an embarrassment his leftist politics took over his pen. As do most of the galen mafia around the Pope McElroy will fit right in, he believes in universal salvation, I'll give him this he is a crafty fox like all leftists in the Church he likes to talk about unity but does everthing he can to undermine that unity. A supporter of LGBTQ+ and pro aborts he says if we do not accept these people's views you exclude and threaten the unity of the Church. in reality McElroy, Cupich, Gregory's views are gravely contrary to the Catholic Faith and they are threatening unity. When we insist on adhering to the Faith they cry "exclusive" "lack of unity". They want unity in a belief system that reverses Catholic Doctrine in those areas they want reversed, they advocate a false unity a unity on their terms, not the true unity of the Apostolic Faith....JMJ....

>213 brone:

I find it interesting that you believe that the views of many cardinals, archbishops and indeed the Holy Father himself "are gravely contrary to the Catholic Faith". Fortunately the Church at large does not agree with you, neither it's hierarchy nor its ordinary Catholics across the globe.

I see you repeat the untrue allegations that McElroy is pro-abortion and pro-LGBTQ+ in the face of actual quotes from him. Don't let facts stand in the way of a good rant. Perhaps there has always been tension in the Church between those who prioritise legalistic obedience to the law and those who focus on pastoral accompaniment of ordinary sinners like you and me? Two sides of the same coin, and no need for a culture war over it.

Or again, a fair disagreement amongst Catholics not over whether abortion is right or wrong (the Church's teaching is pretty clear on that), but on what is the best strategy not only to reduce the number of abortions but also to reduce all the other ways in which human beings (and particularly mothers and young children) suffer and die needlessly.

Diversion of attention is a fovorite tactic of marxists. Drag a series of irrelevant or tangential topics into the post. What politician in America would dare enter a racist comment it would be political suicide so with that said lets stick to what I said and your misquoting me I said he supports people that are pro-abort and LGBQ+ you know them you support them also the marginalized, an abstract term but we get it, Anyway NcElroy is appalled at not giving Holy Communion to Biden who buy the way is the only politician to make a racist comment as recently as two years ago that I know of "you aint black if you don't vote for me". Catholic lefties always give lip service when talking about abortions always giving themselves away by saying, as you say what is the best strategy to reduce (not end) abortion "but" (key word but)

Since there are no Marxists in this conversation, I wonder what the relevance of that remark is?

Yes, Biden made a racist comment and was roundly condemned for it. Contrary to your belief, he is not the only politician to make a racist comment; many have done so. Trump made a racist comment when he described African countries as "shithouses" and was also roundly condemned for it. What has any of that got to do with "Current Catholic Issues"?

It seems that McElroy is a pastor, not a political ideologue or a culture warrior.

We cannot "end" abortion. However stringent the laws are, illegal abortions will continue. Hence for those of us who oppose abortion the best we can hope for is to reduce them, and there is room for debate as how best to do that. It's about saving the lives of mothers and babies, whether born or unborn, not about making a political point. There need be no culture war between Catholics who choose different paths towards the same end.

Most people who favour having abortions legal are not 'pro-abortion'. There are many situations in which there are no good solutions, and sometimes an abortion is the least bad of them.

The recent case in Malta where a tourist had a partial miscarriage. The baby was no longer viable, but still had a heartbeat. The placenta was detached, parts were sticking out of the cervix, creating a major risk of infection to the mother, but "No abortion." The parents were told that had to wait and hope that the miscarriage restarted before the mother's health was badly damaged. Luckily, they managed to arrange a medical evacuation to a country that allows abortion when the mother is endangered.

I'm opposed to unilaterally inserting forceps and pulling out an arm....JMJ....

>218 brone:

So you'd leave a nonviable (ie dead) baby in the womb and let the mother die?

Even under the most traditional Catholic ethics, the principle of double effect would apply here, which allows good or indifferent actions to be performed in pursuit of a good end, although evil consequences will follow, provided due proportion between the good sought and the evil accepted is observed. Catholic law is actually more flexible than political ideology.

putting words in my mouth....

Time to start a new thread as this one is now more than 200 posts long and is taking longer to load, and anyway we've just entered the second half of the year! The new one is at https://www.librarything.com/topic/342715 - please post there from now on.

>219 John5918: Thank you for giving it a name. Three aspects of Catholicism--principle of double effect, primacy of conscience, and Trinity-- make it a bigger tent than the small, rigid world of an Apostolic I've been trying to understand(?)