1cupidum
Most times, I prefer to order books from sellers that I know or reputable sellers, even if they cost a bit more, just to avoid being disppointed. Sometimes the temptation to do otherwise is too strong, and this is my last Abebook experience.
On January 17, a book that I had been searching for was listed in Argentina at USD 900. It was described as Very Fine and the photos seemed to confirm this, so I quickly ordered it and also contacted the seller through Abe with a few questions.
Within an hour or so, the seller confirmed my order and the book was described as shipped on Abe. However, the seller didn't respond to my questions.
On January 20, I once again sent my questions to the seller. No reply.
On January 25 - the same.
On January 27, for the fourth time, and after contacting Abe about the nonresponsive seller. This time I received a short reply in irritated tone saying that according to Abe, the book should arrive in Sweden within 45 days and that he planned to ship it at the end of the following week. No answer to any of my questions about the book.
In retrospect, with all the alarm bells ringing, I should have cancelled my order there and then, but a fool is a fool.
On February 5, I received the DHL tracking number and felt relieved.
On February 11, the book arrived. When the courier phoned me, I was away at work, and asked him to deliver it at a store for me to pick up later in the day, which was another piece of bad luck. If I had seen the parcel, I would have refused to sign for it, but now it was "delivered". The seller had put this USD 900 book in a thin DHL plastic envelope without any protection whatsoever, and I could feel through the envelope that the book was broken.
I took photos of the envelope, and of the book when I opened it. The slipcase was in five pieces, the textblock corners bumped and - the book had severe foxing and other stains.
I contacted Abe support, and received this reply: "Im sorry to hear that your order was not as expected. I have reached out to the bookseller directly in order to expedite a resolution.Kindly allow three business days to resolve. I do apologize for the inconvenience caused once more.
On February 13, I decided to return the book, and initiated a return/refund process on Abe.
Unfortunately, I couldn't use DHL for return shipping because they didn't offer insurance for USD900 (the seller had declared the book at USD 90, so the damage hadn't had any insurance covering), but had to opt for the UPS.
On February 14, I returned the book. UPS shipping amounted to almost USD150. I also wrote to Abe again and received this rather confused reply: "I'm sorry to hear that you have not received your refund for this order.In order to better assist you, can you please provide me with the tracking information for the returned item so that I may confirm its delivery back to the bookseller?
Once I've confirmed that this item was delivered using the tracking information, I will contact the bookseller on your behalf to request that the refund be processed as soon as possible. You will then receive email confirmation as soon as the refund is complete."
On February 17, after having sent photos to Abe, I received this reply: "Thank you for sending the pictures, I had a look at them closely. The foxing, stains and corner bumps you mention and show in your pictures are visible on the pictures on the book page: What is left to see is how the book got so broken, since the bookseller pictures shows it not broken.I will wait until the bookseller receives back the book and I will contact you at that time to see how we can find a solution for this situation. Thank you for your patience."
I was surprised to read this, because I couldn't see any foxing, stains or corner bumps in the photos, and the book had been described as Very Fine.
I replied to this, and received another reply: "Thank you for your answer. I am sorry for the confusion and I apologize if you think I was taking the seller side, since I need to wait first for the return to arrive to assess the situation. As stated in our refund policy for books returned as Not as described, return shipping amounts are refunded at the booksellers discretion. If the seller disagrees, only the book price and original shipping will be refunded. AbeBooks will not refund shipping amounts on behalf of a seller in the event of a dispute.I would suggest to wait until the return arrives. I will be checking the tracking and I will come back to you."
On February 25, the book had arrived back in Argentina, but the seller had refused to sign for it so I contacted Abe and received this reply: "We are currently receiving a large number of customer inquiries. Please be patient.".
On March 3, another confused Abe reply: "Thank you for contacting AbeBooks Customer Support.In order to better assist you, please provide the order number and title in question.
I look forward to your response, and thank you for your time." (All this information had been provided in my email subject field).
On March 4, the reply was: "I understand your frustration but I would ask you to be patient a few more days. I am checking the tracking number every day and I am in touch with the seller. The order is currently held in a warehouse and I asked the bookseller to go and get it. I will come back to you as soon as I have any update or in a few days if nothing is changing so we can find a solution."
On March 10: "Thank you for your message. I understand your frustration and I want to apologize for the experience you are having. The bookseller was able to get the book on March 5, 2021 and it is currently being restored. I asked my supervisor's opinion due to the complexity of this situation and we should reach a resolution today. I will then contact you tomorrow at the latest to inform you. I thank you for your patience."
And finally, on March 11: "I am writing you to inform you that we have refunded you fully for the order XXX, including the return shipping equal to the original shipping (US$ 37.00).
Your refund has been applied to the same credit card you used to place the order. When a refund is completed, the funds are forwarded to your credit card company within 2 business days. You should see the credit applied on your next print or online monthly statement. You may want to follow up with your credit card provider directly if you don't see the funds by then.I appreciate your patience and hope that this has been fully resolved to your satisfaction. If there's anything further I can help with, please don't hesitate to let me know."
So, finally, Abe performed what I think is their duties, and I am thankful for that. But I am surprised that a seller like that is allowed to continue to use the platform. Now my losses stopped at about USD 130 (shipping and customs charges), so I will try to forget everything about this unfortunate experience. One more thing learnt is that in the future, I will only use credit cards online, not debit cards. That is because when I visited my bank, I was informed that it wasn't 100% sure that a complaint would be successful and that if I filed a complaint and it was later found out that it was unnecessary, my bank would charge me a USD 65 fee. It would have been much easier to file a complaint on a credit card.
On January 17, a book that I had been searching for was listed in Argentina at USD 900. It was described as Very Fine and the photos seemed to confirm this, so I quickly ordered it and also contacted the seller through Abe with a few questions.
Within an hour or so, the seller confirmed my order and the book was described as shipped on Abe. However, the seller didn't respond to my questions.
On January 20, I once again sent my questions to the seller. No reply.
On January 25 - the same.
On January 27, for the fourth time, and after contacting Abe about the nonresponsive seller. This time I received a short reply in irritated tone saying that according to Abe, the book should arrive in Sweden within 45 days and that he planned to ship it at the end of the following week. No answer to any of my questions about the book.
In retrospect, with all the alarm bells ringing, I should have cancelled my order there and then, but a fool is a fool.
On February 5, I received the DHL tracking number and felt relieved.
On February 11, the book arrived. When the courier phoned me, I was away at work, and asked him to deliver it at a store for me to pick up later in the day, which was another piece of bad luck. If I had seen the parcel, I would have refused to sign for it, but now it was "delivered". The seller had put this USD 900 book in a thin DHL plastic envelope without any protection whatsoever, and I could feel through the envelope that the book was broken.
I took photos of the envelope, and of the book when I opened it. The slipcase was in five pieces, the textblock corners bumped and - the book had severe foxing and other stains.
I contacted Abe support, and received this reply: "Im sorry to hear that your order was not as expected. I have reached out to the bookseller directly in order to expedite a resolution.Kindly allow three business days to resolve. I do apologize for the inconvenience caused once more.
On February 13, I decided to return the book, and initiated a return/refund process on Abe.
Unfortunately, I couldn't use DHL for return shipping because they didn't offer insurance for USD900 (the seller had declared the book at USD 90, so the damage hadn't had any insurance covering), but had to opt for the UPS.
On February 14, I returned the book. UPS shipping amounted to almost USD150. I also wrote to Abe again and received this rather confused reply: "I'm sorry to hear that you have not received your refund for this order.In order to better assist you, can you please provide me with the tracking information for the returned item so that I may confirm its delivery back to the bookseller?
Once I've confirmed that this item was delivered using the tracking information, I will contact the bookseller on your behalf to request that the refund be processed as soon as possible. You will then receive email confirmation as soon as the refund is complete."
On February 17, after having sent photos to Abe, I received this reply: "Thank you for sending the pictures, I had a look at them closely. The foxing, stains and corner bumps you mention and show in your pictures are visible on the pictures on the book page: What is left to see is how the book got so broken, since the bookseller pictures shows it not broken.I will wait until the bookseller receives back the book and I will contact you at that time to see how we can find a solution for this situation. Thank you for your patience."
I was surprised to read this, because I couldn't see any foxing, stains or corner bumps in the photos, and the book had been described as Very Fine.
I replied to this, and received another reply: "Thank you for your answer. I am sorry for the confusion and I apologize if you think I was taking the seller side, since I need to wait first for the return to arrive to assess the situation. As stated in our refund policy for books returned as Not as described, return shipping amounts are refunded at the booksellers discretion. If the seller disagrees, only the book price and original shipping will be refunded. AbeBooks will not refund shipping amounts on behalf of a seller in the event of a dispute.I would suggest to wait until the return arrives. I will be checking the tracking and I will come back to you."
On February 25, the book had arrived back in Argentina, but the seller had refused to sign for it so I contacted Abe and received this reply: "We are currently receiving a large number of customer inquiries. Please be patient.".
On March 3, another confused Abe reply: "Thank you for contacting AbeBooks Customer Support.In order to better assist you, please provide the order number and title in question.
I look forward to your response, and thank you for your time." (All this information had been provided in my email subject field).
On March 4, the reply was: "I understand your frustration but I would ask you to be patient a few more days. I am checking the tracking number every day and I am in touch with the seller. The order is currently held in a warehouse and I asked the bookseller to go and get it. I will come back to you as soon as I have any update or in a few days if nothing is changing so we can find a solution."
On March 10: "Thank you for your message. I understand your frustration and I want to apologize for the experience you are having. The bookseller was able to get the book on March 5, 2021 and it is currently being restored. I asked my supervisor's opinion due to the complexity of this situation and we should reach a resolution today. I will then contact you tomorrow at the latest to inform you. I thank you for your patience."
And finally, on March 11: "I am writing you to inform you that we have refunded you fully for the order XXX, including the return shipping equal to the original shipping (US$ 37.00).
Your refund has been applied to the same credit card you used to place the order. When a refund is completed, the funds are forwarded to your credit card company within 2 business days. You should see the credit applied on your next print or online monthly statement. You may want to follow up with your credit card provider directly if you don't see the funds by then.I appreciate your patience and hope that this has been fully resolved to your satisfaction. If there's anything further I can help with, please don't hesitate to let me know."
So, finally, Abe performed what I think is their duties, and I am thankful for that. But I am surprised that a seller like that is allowed to continue to use the platform. Now my losses stopped at about USD 130 (shipping and customs charges), so I will try to forget everything about this unfortunate experience. One more thing learnt is that in the future, I will only use credit cards online, not debit cards. That is because when I visited my bank, I was informed that it wasn't 100% sure that a complaint would be successful and that if I filed a complaint and it was later found out that it was unnecessary, my bank would charge me a USD 65 fee. It would have been much easier to file a complaint on a credit card.
2abysswalker
I find it incomprehensible how incompetent many people seem to be at packing a shipment. How hard is it to cover tightly with bubble wrap or padding and make sure the item won’t shift inside the box or wrapper during transit? And this for people presumably shipping things in a professional capacity.
Tangentially, did you contact the seller directly and ask them to refund the difference in the return shipment amount?
I had my first experience somewhat like this using Abe just recently, though happily the amount was lower, the distance to the seller was less, and they ultimately took responsibility for the mistake. The book was described as “fine condition” and the pictures looked good, but when it arrived there were many flaws, including cracked paste down hinges and personal blind stamp (!). It took some persistence and a few tactfully worded emails, but the seller ended up agreeing to cover the return shipping in addition to the refund.
Tangentially, did you contact the seller directly and ask them to refund the difference in the return shipment amount?
I had my first experience somewhat like this using Abe just recently, though happily the amount was lower, the distance to the seller was less, and they ultimately took responsibility for the mistake. The book was described as “fine condition” and the pictures looked good, but when it arrived there were many flaws, including cracked paste down hinges and personal blind stamp (!). It took some persistence and a few tactfully worded emails, but the seller ended up agreeing to cover the return shipping in addition to the refund.
3MobyRichard
Abebooks has a bunch of unfortunate sellers and primitive customer service and return policies. They should at least offer free return shipping considering how many shady sellers are on the site. I especially avoid all ABAA members. This is apparently a medieval guild whose membership requirements are that every order should arrive damaged due to bad packaging and every book description you write must be horribly inaccurate.
Add a feedback system Abebooks! Your "Seller Rating" is worthless.
Add a feedback system Abebooks! Your "Seller Rating" is worthless.
4cupidum
>2 abysswalker: "Tangentially, did you contact the seller directly and ask them to refund the difference in the return shipment amount?"
Nope. He didn't answer my first emails when I had ordered the book and he didn't reply when I sent photos of the book upon receipt, so it is very unlikely that he would be forthcoming. For my own wellbeing, I believe that the best thing is to try to forget everything about this as soon as possible.
What I believe is worse than this seller (who has been on Abe for some twenty years!) is that the Abe "customer service" person never answered my questions whather it was ok in their book for a seller to list a book with foxing and stains as Very Fine, not to reply to e-mails, to wait almost three weeks after taking payment before shipping the book and then refuse to receive the return for about another two weeks. I believe that the only thing that is important for them is to be able to charge monthly fees for seller listings - but they will lose customers that way. Amazon Book Exchange...
One positive thing after all this though, (Karma?), is that a day or two after that I had returned this book I found a Fine copy of the same book in Europe for 500 Euros (after having looked for it for over a year and only seen listings at over triple that price).
Nope. He didn't answer my first emails when I had ordered the book and he didn't reply when I sent photos of the book upon receipt, so it is very unlikely that he would be forthcoming. For my own wellbeing, I believe that the best thing is to try to forget everything about this as soon as possible.
What I believe is worse than this seller (who has been on Abe for some twenty years!) is that the Abe "customer service" person never answered my questions whather it was ok in their book for a seller to list a book with foxing and stains as Very Fine, not to reply to e-mails, to wait almost three weeks after taking payment before shipping the book and then refuse to receive the return for about another two weeks. I believe that the only thing that is important for them is to be able to charge monthly fees for seller listings - but they will lose customers that way. Amazon Book Exchange...
One positive thing after all this though, (Karma?), is that a day or two after that I had returned this book I found a Fine copy of the same book in Europe for 500 Euros (after having looked for it for over a year and only seen listings at over triple that price).
5Sport1963
Does everyone understand that ABE is wholly owned by Amazon? If only ABE would adopt the mothership's policies toward returns and customer service. At the end of the day they are a middleman/broker. Best to go directly to the Seller (which ABE actually encourages in some cases), and as always: caveat emptor.
7filox
>3 MobyRichard: Add a feedback system Abebooks! Your "Seller Rating" is worthless.
I think this is really the crux of the problem. Without a decent feedback system, sellers like this one will continue to thrive on Abe. I had a number of problems with books from Abe but due to the low amount (less than $100) I never bothered returning the books and thus the sellers never got any negative feedback. It's really a seller-biased site, as the burden of leaving a 'negative' feedback is quite high.
I think this is really the crux of the problem. Without a decent feedback system, sellers like this one will continue to thrive on Abe. I had a number of problems with books from Abe but due to the low amount (less than $100) I never bothered returning the books and thus the sellers never got any negative feedback. It's really a seller-biased site, as the burden of leaving a 'negative' feedback is quite high.
8MobyRichard
>7 filox:
Yeah...it's rare to see any seller with even a 4/5 star "rating." If they somehow manage to get that low, it's a really bad sign. For most sellers, it's impossible to distinguish reliable sellers from unreliable without buying at least once.
Yeah...it's rare to see any seller with even a 4/5 star "rating." If they somehow manage to get that low, it's a really bad sign. For most sellers, it's impossible to distinguish reliable sellers from unreliable without buying at least once.
9SF-72
The only way the sellers' rating suffers is if they have to cancel an order or it's returned. Return shipping is only covered up to the cost of the original shipping the seller charged. Never mind that a business account usually gets cheaper shipping and that not all countries charge the same. It's a very bad system.
I've been lucky in that most of my purchases were fine and all but one that weren't were easily solved by the seller. But the one other case was a huge mess in which a UK seller didn't have the copy they offered anymore, bought one in inferior condition from a US seller, had it shipped from them to me within 2 months instead of two weeks, wanted to keep the considerable difference in price, then demanded I send the book to them for a refund, and after receiving it didn't give a refund after all. After a very long back and forth, Abebooks did see to it that I got my money back, but it was much more hassle than on amazon or ebay. That being said, a lot of sellers on abebooks are absolutely decent. It would just take a better rating system to tell them from the black sheep that also thrive there.
I've been lucky in that most of my purchases were fine and all but one that weren't were easily solved by the seller. But the one other case was a huge mess in which a UK seller didn't have the copy they offered anymore, bought one in inferior condition from a US seller, had it shipped from them to me within 2 months instead of two weeks, wanted to keep the considerable difference in price, then demanded I send the book to them for a refund, and after receiving it didn't give a refund after all. After a very long back and forth, Abebooks did see to it that I got my money back, but it was much more hassle than on amazon or ebay. That being said, a lot of sellers on abebooks are absolutely decent. It would just take a better rating system to tell them from the black sheep that also thrive there.
10jroger1
Abe.com’s rating system is no worse than eBay’s, though. When was the last time you found an eBay seller who didn’t have a 100% positive rating?
12MobyRichard
>10 jroger1:
>11 SF-72:
Yeah, I see below 100% all the time. The issue with Ebay is that buyers can only be given Positive feedback. So you'll sometimes see buyers who sell very little with an easy or manipulated high feedback count and 100%, but if they don't sell much in reality it's not likely you'll be buying much from them anyways. Ebay also lets you filter out their Buyer feedback and see their Seller feedback only.
>11 SF-72:
Yeah, I see below 100% all the time. The issue with Ebay is that buyers can only be given Positive feedback. So you'll sometimes see buyers who sell very little with an easy or manipulated high feedback count and 100%, but if they don't sell much in reality it's not likely you'll be buying much from them anyways. Ebay also lets you filter out their Buyer feedback and see their Seller feedback only.
13kdweber
eBay feedback is essentially worthless. Almost no seller will give a buyer feedback until the buyer has posted their feedback. If the buyers feedback is positive then the sellers will be positive. Likewise negative feedback will almost certainly result in a negative response. This situation was designed intentionally to give the appearance of trusted feedback but be in reality propaganda for using eBay. It would be easy to implement a fair system. Don't post a result until both parties have entered their rating. If one party has not posted any rating after one or two weeks post the given rating but don't allow the person who didn't post a chance to respond.
14SF-72
>13 kdweber:
For several years it's been impossible for sellers to give negative feedback on ebay, which was done so buyers could give realistic feedback without being afraid of being given negative feedback as a punishment. So yes, the feedback for sellers is usually realistic, the one for buyers isn't.
For several years it's been impossible for sellers to give negative feedback on ebay, which was done so buyers could give realistic feedback without being afraid of being given negative feedback as a punishment. So yes, the feedback for sellers is usually realistic, the one for buyers isn't.
15cupidum
About eBay now - this is laughable, mainly because not much money is involved, just some 20 Euros in "extra shipping":
Today I wrote eBay customer service: "Order number xxx. After auction close, this seller forced me to pay quite a lot of extra for shipping, in spite of the shipping indicated in the listing - or he would cancel the order. Then he sent the book in a plain envelope without protection - it arrived damaged. You may see his messages about this, since he contacted me through eBay. Not a pleasant transaction. (I had to pay the extra through Paypal).
Just a few minutes later, I received a reply: "Thank you for writing to eBay Customer Support regarding issue with item no: xxx. My name is Khushboo and I am here to assist you ahead.
I understand you want to get the money back which you paid for the item no: xxx as the item is defective. I understand how much this problem affect your experience on eBay. Be assured, I will surely help you in this situation.
I understand that you have waited a long for the product to be delivered to you and also you had to pay extra to seller through PayPal. Please allow me to assist you with this..
First of all, I would like to assure you that this transaction is eligible for eBay Money Back Guarantee wherein we ensure that you receive the product as described or you receive a full refund. (Note: you only need to follow the timelines mentioned below)
xxx, I have reviewed details and able to see that you have received the item which is defective. I appreciate your effort in contacting seller and try to resolve it mutually. I would like to share that seller is responsible to deliver the product as it is described on the listing page. It is disappointing to learn that the product received by you is defective and incomplete.
Please do not loose hopes; you have the option to file return request on eBay within 30 days of delivery date. You can file a returns request now. In-case you are not aware about filling the 'Returns' request, I've shared the steps to file a returns request on eBay.
Steps to file “Returns" request:
1. Go to the link: xxx
2. Select “I received an item that does not match the seller's description” and click on “Continue”.
3. Enter the item number and select the goods.
4. Select the preferred decision and enter the reason.
5. Click on “Send Inquiry”.
Once you file the dispute, seller will receive the notification to assist you in resolving the situation. seller will have 3 business days to respond on the dispute. They may respond with the following options:
• Full refund
• Replacement
• Partial refund
• Return shipping cost
Further, if the seller doesn’t respond to you by 3 rd business day, you may simply click on “Get Help from eBay” on starting from the 4th business day. Please note that this option will be available only until 21 business days from the date of filing a dispute.
For your reference, below are the steps on how you can seek our help:
1. Open the link: xxx
2. Beside the product details click on "Perform Action"
3. Select “Ask eBay to step in “
Once the request is sent to us; our team will get back to you with a resolution within 48 hours.
Fruther, I would suggest you to contact the seller and ask them to provide you the refund of the extra amount you paid for this transaction.
xxx, I am glad to have this opportunity to assist you today.
Thank you for using eBay! Have a nice day ahead.
Kind Regards,
Khushboo V.
eBay Customer Support"
I'll just forget about it all, but this confirms that Abe and eBay customer service is all the same. It seems like sellers can do as they wish, even charge extra, without any risk whatsoever of receiving a warning. Obviously both Abe and eBay employ representatives somewhere in the world where wages are minimal.
Today I wrote eBay customer service: "Order number xxx. After auction close, this seller forced me to pay quite a lot of extra for shipping, in spite of the shipping indicated in the listing - or he would cancel the order. Then he sent the book in a plain envelope without protection - it arrived damaged. You may see his messages about this, since he contacted me through eBay. Not a pleasant transaction. (I had to pay the extra through Paypal).
Just a few minutes later, I received a reply: "Thank you for writing to eBay Customer Support regarding issue with item no: xxx. My name is Khushboo and I am here to assist you ahead.
I understand you want to get the money back which you paid for the item no: xxx as the item is defective. I understand how much this problem affect your experience on eBay. Be assured, I will surely help you in this situation.
I understand that you have waited a long for the product to be delivered to you and also you had to pay extra to seller through PayPal. Please allow me to assist you with this..
First of all, I would like to assure you that this transaction is eligible for eBay Money Back Guarantee wherein we ensure that you receive the product as described or you receive a full refund. (Note: you only need to follow the timelines mentioned below)
xxx, I have reviewed details and able to see that you have received the item which is defective. I appreciate your effort in contacting seller and try to resolve it mutually. I would like to share that seller is responsible to deliver the product as it is described on the listing page. It is disappointing to learn that the product received by you is defective and incomplete.
Please do not loose hopes; you have the option to file return request on eBay within 30 days of delivery date. You can file a returns request now. In-case you are not aware about filling the 'Returns' request, I've shared the steps to file a returns request on eBay.
Steps to file “Returns" request:
1. Go to the link: xxx
2. Select “I received an item that does not match the seller's description” and click on “Continue”.
3. Enter the item number and select the goods.
4. Select the preferred decision and enter the reason.
5. Click on “Send Inquiry”.
Once you file the dispute, seller will receive the notification to assist you in resolving the situation. seller will have 3 business days to respond on the dispute. They may respond with the following options:
• Full refund
• Replacement
• Partial refund
• Return shipping cost
Further, if the seller doesn’t respond to you by 3 rd business day, you may simply click on “Get Help from eBay” on starting from the 4th business day. Please note that this option will be available only until 21 business days from the date of filing a dispute.
For your reference, below are the steps on how you can seek our help:
1. Open the link: xxx
2. Beside the product details click on "Perform Action"
3. Select “Ask eBay to step in “
Once the request is sent to us; our team will get back to you with a resolution within 48 hours.
Fruther, I would suggest you to contact the seller and ask them to provide you the refund of the extra amount you paid for this transaction.
xxx, I am glad to have this opportunity to assist you today.
Thank you for using eBay! Have a nice day ahead.
Kind Regards,
Khushboo V.
eBay Customer Support"
I'll just forget about it all, but this confirms that Abe and eBay customer service is all the same. It seems like sellers can do as they wish, even charge extra, without any risk whatsoever of receiving a warning. Obviously both Abe and eBay employ representatives somewhere in the world where wages are minimal.
16Glacierman
Interesting.
I have used ABE frequently for years and have never had a problem. I am, however, careful with whom I deal. As you have discovered, not all dealers are the same.
I have used ABE frequently for years and have never had a problem. I am, however, careful with whom I deal. As you have discovered, not all dealers are the same.
17MobyRichard
>16 Glacierman:
Well, my point is that there is no way to be careful because the ratings are almost always the same. There's no way I can tell one 5 star seller from another 5 star seller without buying from them at least once. The seller has to be really really bad before the Abebooks rating changes. Even when the rating is less than 5 stars, I have no idea why. Whereas on ebay and amazon, you can look at the actual feedback messages and judge for yourself if you don't trust the final score.
Well, my point is that there is no way to be careful because the ratings are almost always the same. There's no way I can tell one 5 star seller from another 5 star seller without buying from them at least once. The seller has to be really really bad before the Abebooks rating changes. Even when the rating is less than 5 stars, I have no idea why. Whereas on ebay and amazon, you can look at the actual feedback messages and judge for yourself if you don't trust the final score.
18Glacierman
Interesting.
I have used ABE frequently for years and have never had a problem. I am, however, careful with whom I deal. As you have discovered, not all dealers are the same.
I have used ABE frequently for years and have never had a problem. I am, however, careful with whom I deal. As you have discovered, not all dealers are the same.
19Chemren
My turn in the ABE wringer.
I recently bought The Doves Bindery by Marianne Tidcombe (Oak Knoll Press, 1993) from a UK bookseller through ABE. The book listing described it as “fine condition, with a clean and tight binding”. When I opened the packaging, the space between the text block and the spine had a comma shape, which was somewhat worrying. When I opened the cover the first time, the cover detached from the rear pastedown, so it was hanging loose from the front pastedown. There was no ripping or anything. It just looked like the adhesive on the rear paste down had given up its adhesive qualities. It was hard to tell if the spine had ever been glued to the text block or if it was always loose. There was a little bit of tackiness where the back hinge attached to the board. Original or had someone attempted a repair? The text block and covers themselves were in fine condition, they just weren’t fully attached to each other.
Since the book was not as described in the listing, I contacted the seller through ABE, letting them know of the issue and asking for a full refund upon return or a partial refund so that I could fund a repair. ABE said to expect a reply from the seller within 2 or 3 days. After 2 weeks of not hearing anything from the seller, I went ahead and initiated a full refund/return through ABE. Ironically, the amount to return the book cost more than a repair would have cost, but by this time, I wanted the seller to bear some cost for what I felt was a dishonest listing.
I heard back from the seller this morning. Here is their reply, with my interpolated comments in brackets:
I have been selling with ABE for over 15 years and have never despatched a book where the “back board and spine were completely separated from the text block”. {Technically true, the cover on the book I received was hanging on by a whisker. Also note: he is quoting my ABE message that he did not respond to.}. Either you have mistaken a copy you already possess for a copy we sent you {wtf! You feel comfortable impugning my integrity, I’ll return the favor.}, or somehow the book has been damaged within your household {again, technically true, if opening the cover is considered as causing damage}.
The extent of the damage to the book you’ve sent us would have been impossible to miss when listing it {Agree! Hence you as a bookseller are either dishonest or incompetent.}. We have been in touch with ABE Books to check their policy. As the book has not been returned to us in the condition that we despatched it in we reserve the right, in accordance with ABE Books policy, not to refund you. {Is this really ABE policy? The receiver is responsible for any damage in shipping?} However, we believe we can get the damage repaired for £50 {in other words, slap on some more rubber cement and relist the book in fine condition?} and so are prepared to refund £xxx.
This is back to me posting: Ironically, the repair amount the seller cited is close to what I offered him in my initial ABE notice that he did not reply to. I suppose there is the slimmest of possibilities that in its 30+ year life, the book adhesive decided to fail in the week the book crossed the Atlantic. It seems much more likely that a lousy repair was done on the book prior to shipping and that the seller didn’t notice (the incompetent above) or that he did it himself (the dishonest above). Either way, the book I received was not close to the seller’s listing and I have escalated with ABE to get my full refund. I’ll keep you all posted with how it goes.
I recently bought The Doves Bindery by Marianne Tidcombe (Oak Knoll Press, 1993) from a UK bookseller through ABE. The book listing described it as “fine condition, with a clean and tight binding”. When I opened the packaging, the space between the text block and the spine had a comma shape, which was somewhat worrying. When I opened the cover the first time, the cover detached from the rear pastedown, so it was hanging loose from the front pastedown. There was no ripping or anything. It just looked like the adhesive on the rear paste down had given up its adhesive qualities. It was hard to tell if the spine had ever been glued to the text block or if it was always loose. There was a little bit of tackiness where the back hinge attached to the board. Original or had someone attempted a repair? The text block and covers themselves were in fine condition, they just weren’t fully attached to each other.
Since the book was not as described in the listing, I contacted the seller through ABE, letting them know of the issue and asking for a full refund upon return or a partial refund so that I could fund a repair. ABE said to expect a reply from the seller within 2 or 3 days. After 2 weeks of not hearing anything from the seller, I went ahead and initiated a full refund/return through ABE. Ironically, the amount to return the book cost more than a repair would have cost, but by this time, I wanted the seller to bear some cost for what I felt was a dishonest listing.
I heard back from the seller this morning. Here is their reply, with my interpolated comments in brackets:
I have been selling with ABE for over 15 years and have never despatched a book where the “back board and spine were completely separated from the text block”. {Technically true, the cover on the book I received was hanging on by a whisker. Also note: he is quoting my ABE message that he did not respond to.}. Either you have mistaken a copy you already possess for a copy we sent you {wtf! You feel comfortable impugning my integrity, I’ll return the favor.}, or somehow the book has been damaged within your household {again, technically true, if opening the cover is considered as causing damage}.
The extent of the damage to the book you’ve sent us would have been impossible to miss when listing it {Agree! Hence you as a bookseller are either dishonest or incompetent.}. We have been in touch with ABE Books to check their policy. As the book has not been returned to us in the condition that we despatched it in we reserve the right, in accordance with ABE Books policy, not to refund you. {Is this really ABE policy? The receiver is responsible for any damage in shipping?} However, we believe we can get the damage repaired for £50 {in other words, slap on some more rubber cement and relist the book in fine condition?} and so are prepared to refund £xxx.
This is back to me posting: Ironically, the repair amount the seller cited is close to what I offered him in my initial ABE notice that he did not reply to. I suppose there is the slimmest of possibilities that in its 30+ year life, the book adhesive decided to fail in the week the book crossed the Atlantic. It seems much more likely that a lousy repair was done on the book prior to shipping and that the seller didn’t notice (the incompetent above) or that he did it himself (the dishonest above). Either way, the book I received was not close to the seller’s listing and I have escalated with ABE to get my full refund. I’ll keep you all posted with how it goes.
20Alan_Wake
>19 Chemren: Sounds absolutely horrible. That's the nightmare I encounter in my darkest dreams.
You have some images of the listing and the book they sent you currently?
It would aswell be nice to know the name of the seller, so maybe someone here made the same horrible experience and can help you ?
We would be warned as well.
You have some images of the listing and the book they sent you currently?
It would aswell be nice to know the name of the seller, so maybe someone here made the same horrible experience and can help you ?
We would be warned as well.
21Chemren
>20 Alan_Wake: If anyone is looking to buy The Doves Bindery from a shop in the UK, pm me and I’ll let you know if you’ve picked the “winner”.
22Glacierman
The book was casebound and thus the spine of the book is not attached to the spine of the binding which results in a hollow space when the book is opened. Failure of the rear hinge would result in the cover separating from the text block at that point, which matches your description. This could have resulted from either of two causes: (1) bindery fault. I have an LEC book with a broken hinge due to cracking of the glue and super upon opening. Seems to be a bindery fault (brittle glue), OR (2) shipping damage caused by the book flopping around inside its container. You did not mention how well the book was packed, however. Either way, the repair is a simple job for a professional book binder/restorer.
The seller's reply was inexcusable. As a former mail-order bookseller myself, I would have (1) promptly refunded your money and (2) sent you a pre-paid return label. Being in the UK, at the very least he should have just made the refund. During my mail-order career, I had two refund requests; one was for a book which the PO had managed to loose and the other was from a crabby customer who felt the book wasn't as described (it was---I was meticulous in my descriptions). Both were refunded promptly and the second was sent a pre-paid return label and an apology, even though the book was precisely as described (I late re-sold it to a happy customer).
The seller's reply was inexcusable. As a former mail-order bookseller myself, I would have (1) promptly refunded your money and (2) sent you a pre-paid return label. Being in the UK, at the very least he should have just made the refund. During my mail-order career, I had two refund requests; one was for a book which the PO had managed to loose and the other was from a crabby customer who felt the book wasn't as described (it was---I was meticulous in my descriptions). Both were refunded promptly and the second was sent a pre-paid return label and an apology, even though the book was precisely as described (I late re-sold it to a happy customer).
23dlphcoracl
>19 Chemren:
Unfortunately, Abebooks is probably not going to be of much help. As several others have previously noted, the best protection against unpleasant surprises, i.e., inaccurate book descriptions, poor packing resulting in damaged books, etc., is to cultivate a small group of reliable and professional booksellers and make the vast majority of your purchases from them.
I have done this previously but, once again, I will list the booksellers I have found to be professional and reliable. The list is certainly not definitive or all-inclusive but it will provide other LT-ers with a starting point.
1. Phillip Pirages (Oregon)
2. Sophie Schneideman Rare Books (London)
3. David Brass Rare Books (Calabasas, CA)
4. Bromer Booksellers (Boston)
5. Buddenbrooks (Newburyport, MA)
6. Swan's Fine Books (Walnut Creek, CA)
7. James S. Jaffe Rare Books (Deep River, CT)
8. Bill Woodbridge Rare Books (U.K.)
9. Michael Taylor Rare Books (U.K.)
Unfortunately, Abebooks is probably not going to be of much help. As several others have previously noted, the best protection against unpleasant surprises, i.e., inaccurate book descriptions, poor packing resulting in damaged books, etc., is to cultivate a small group of reliable and professional booksellers and make the vast majority of your purchases from them.
I have done this previously but, once again, I will list the booksellers I have found to be professional and reliable. The list is certainly not definitive or all-inclusive but it will provide other LT-ers with a starting point.
1. Phillip Pirages (Oregon)
2. Sophie Schneideman Rare Books (London)
3. David Brass Rare Books (Calabasas, CA)
4. Bromer Booksellers (Boston)
5. Buddenbrooks (Newburyport, MA)
6. Swan's Fine Books (Walnut Creek, CA)
7. James S. Jaffe Rare Books (Deep River, CT)
8. Bill Woodbridge Rare Books (U.K.)
9. Michael Taylor Rare Books (U.K.)
24abysswalker
>23 dlphcoracl: I believe the AbeBooks terms are generally in the customer's favor, as long as the buyer opens a case within the required time (30 days I believe) and can provide info if needed.
That service is part of what the platform fees cover.
I read the terms carefully once. It has been a while but I suspect that's still true.
It's not the best service (I had to be somewhat insistent the one time I recall needing to push the issue), but I would certainly recommend trying.
That service is part of what the platform fees cover.
I read the terms carefully once. It has been a while but I suspect that's still true.
It's not the best service (I had to be somewhat insistent the one time I recall needing to push the issue), but I would certainly recommend trying.
25Chemren
>22 Glacierman: Thanks (and Dlphcoracl). The book wasn't particularly well packed, but it wasn’t loose in a box. More that it was just wrapped up in a couple layers so that the total package was just a little larger than the book itself. The cover separation was so clean that it didn’t look like shipping damage, though I suppose it could have been. My theory of the case is that the book had been inexpertly repaired at some point in the recent past (glue was still tacky at the hinge) and that the front and back covers shifted back and forth relative to each other during shipping (vulnerable to this due to packing method) and that broke the inexpert repair.
I should have known something was up because the book was offered for a price that was $100+ cheaper than any other listing I could find for the book in similar advertised condition. Sometimes too good to be true really is too good to be true.
I should have known something was up because the book was offered for a price that was $100+ cheaper than any other listing I could find for the book in similar advertised condition. Sometimes too good to be true really is too good to be true.
26abysswalker
Yes, I just checked again.
Don't let sellers get away with misleading descriptions or insufficient packaging. We are collectively paying for this guarantee through the higher prices sellers need to charge to cover the platform fees, so might as well take advantage of it!
Here is the policy for those interested at the time of this writing:
https://support.abebooks.com/buying/s/article/return-refund-policy
Don't let sellers get away with misleading descriptions or insufficient packaging. We are collectively paying for this guarantee through the higher prices sellers need to charge to cover the platform fees, so might as well take advantage of it!
Here is the policy for those interested at the time of this writing:
Types of Refunds
Incorrect Book/Not as Described/Damaged
You're eligible for a full refund of the purchase price, including original shipping costs, if your return is the result of an error on the seller's part. If you receive the incorrect book or if it arrives damaged, you'll also be refunded return shipping equal to the original charge. To receive a refund, you must return your item directly to the seller within 30 days of the estimated delivery date and in the same condition you received it in.
For books returned as 'Not as described,' return shipping amounts are refunded at the seller's discretion. If the seller disagrees, only the book price and original shipping will be refunded. We will not refund shipping amounts on behalf of a seller in the event of a dispute.
https://support.abebooks.com/buying/s/article/return-refund-policy
27Glacierman
>25 Chemren: My theory of the case is that the book had been inexpertly repaired at some point in the recent past (glue was still tacky at the hinge) and that the front and back covers shifted back and forth relative to each other during shipping (vulnerable to this due to packing method) and that broke the inexpert repair.
A bad repair is possible, of course, but not necessary, even with tacky glue (unusual, but not unheard of). Shifting w/in the shipping box could be enough to strain the hinge to near the breaking point, which is what happened with that LEC volume of mine I mentioned. All I had to do was open the back cover and BANG! It split and came completely loose. Looked like it had been cut with a knife.
A bad repair is possible, of course, but not necessary, even with tacky glue (unusual, but not unheard of). Shifting w/in the shipping box could be enough to strain the hinge to near the breaking point, which is what happened with that LEC volume of mine I mentioned. All I had to do was open the back cover and BANG! It split and came completely loose. Looked like it had been cut with a knife.
28Chemren
>23 dlphcoracl: Thanks for the advice.
I had been happily buying Folio books for decades. A few years ago, I managed to get in on the numbered edition of Stardust from Lyra’s Books (more as a Gaiman fan than a fine press fan, at that point, although I had been an admirer of Rich’s Tolkien custom rebinds that appeared in the FSD forum). When I received the book, I was completely enamored and that started me down the slippery slope.
It has been a very rewarding obsession for the last three years, first digging into the LEC, then the British Private Presses of the early 20th century and more recently the current fine press community. In general, everybody I’ve interacted with has been very friendly and helpful. The bad experiences like this recent one have been few and far between. As a relative newcomer to the hobby, I still take my lumps here and there and appreciate learning from all of you old hands who generously contribute to this and sister forums.
I had been happily buying Folio books for decades. A few years ago, I managed to get in on the numbered edition of Stardust from Lyra’s Books (more as a Gaiman fan than a fine press fan, at that point, although I had been an admirer of Rich’s Tolkien custom rebinds that appeared in the FSD forum). When I received the book, I was completely enamored and that started me down the slippery slope.
It has been a very rewarding obsession for the last three years, first digging into the LEC, then the British Private Presses of the early 20th century and more recently the current fine press community. In general, everybody I’ve interacted with has been very friendly and helpful. The bad experiences like this recent one have been few and far between. As a relative newcomer to the hobby, I still take my lumps here and there and appreciate learning from all of you old hands who generously contribute to this and sister forums.
29Chemren
>27 Glacierman: I wanted to think the best of the seller, giving him the benefit of the doubt (see previous post about how nice people have been) but was not happy with the lack of response when I reported the issue. When I saw his email this morning, it really set me off. In my experience, people who jump to accusations of shady behavior tend to be shady themselves.
30dlphcoracl
>28 Chemren:
"As a relative newcomer to the hobby, I still take my lumps here and there..... ."
We all do.
Whether your passion is modern art, fine & private press books, rare vintage automobiles, etc., it is part of being a collector and experienced collectors are not immunized from making the occasional mistake or poor decision. At the end of any year, I will look back and see 1 or 2 books I wish I could take a mulligan on. Every new acquisition doesn't pan out but, fortunately, the mistakes lessen over time.
"As a relative newcomer to the hobby, I still take my lumps here and there..... ."
We all do.
Whether your passion is modern art, fine & private press books, rare vintage automobiles, etc., it is part of being a collector and experienced collectors are not immunized from making the occasional mistake or poor decision. At the end of any year, I will look back and see 1 or 2 books I wish I could take a mulligan on. Every new acquisition doesn't pan out but, fortunately, the mistakes lessen over time.
31wcarter
>30 dlphcoracl:
"Mulligan"?
A stew made of odds and ends OR an extra golf shot allowed after a poor shot.
"Mulligan"?
A stew made of odds and ends OR an extra golf shot allowed after a poor shot.
32dlphcoracl
>31 wcarter:
'Mulligan' is not a term restricted to golf. It can be used in any situation where one wishes to reverse a poor past decision and make a better one in present time.
'Mulligan' is not a term restricted to golf. It can be used in any situation where one wishes to reverse a poor past decision and make a better one in present time.
33TheTotalLibrarian
>23 dlphcoracl: I'm based in the UK, so ordering books from the US can be a bit pricey on the postage. Saying that, I did buy two small, light items from Bromer Booksellers this year. Their website is very good and their customer service was excellent. The books arrived in three days. I couldn't believe how quickly they got here (neither could Bromer Booksellers). I guess that living in West Wales we are a *bit* closer to Boston!
34SF-72
About this part of their rules: "you'll also be refunded return shipping equal to the original charge"
That can be a real problem depending on where you live and bought. Shipping as a private person from Germany is usually a lot more expensive than shipping as a business from other countries, e. g. the US. So even if all goes well, you might be stuck with paying quite a bit for a book you don't have in the end. It should really be the actual cost, not the original shipping fee. That being said, honest Abebooks sellers usually don't request a return in such cases. But of course there are dishonest ones, like the one Chemren has got to deal with.
What happened to me twice was that sellers offered books they didn't have in stock, then bought them from some other (Abebooks) seller and had them sent directly to me. In one case, that meant that I got a cheap paperback instead of the expensive out-of-print hardcover edition. In the other, I got the right version, but not in as good a condition as described, and from another country with a much longer shipping time (US as opposed to UK). I suggested refunding the difference in price - I'd paid a lot more for my new copy than they did for the used one they had sent to me, but they refused and demanded a return for a full refund. Okay with me. After I returned the book, the seller then tried to get out of the refund by complaining to Abebooks about my rudeness (no kidding, I hadn't been rude at all, just not willing to play along with this), but didn't get away with it. Unbelievable, but not as bad as what's been described in >19 Chemren:.
That can be a real problem depending on where you live and bought. Shipping as a private person from Germany is usually a lot more expensive than shipping as a business from other countries, e. g. the US. So even if all goes well, you might be stuck with paying quite a bit for a book you don't have in the end. It should really be the actual cost, not the original shipping fee. That being said, honest Abebooks sellers usually don't request a return in such cases. But of course there are dishonest ones, like the one Chemren has got to deal with.
What happened to me twice was that sellers offered books they didn't have in stock, then bought them from some other (Abebooks) seller and had them sent directly to me. In one case, that meant that I got a cheap paperback instead of the expensive out-of-print hardcover edition. In the other, I got the right version, but not in as good a condition as described, and from another country with a much longer shipping time (US as opposed to UK). I suggested refunding the difference in price - I'd paid a lot more for my new copy than they did for the used one they had sent to me, but they refused and demanded a return for a full refund. Okay with me. After I returned the book, the seller then tried to get out of the refund by complaining to Abebooks about my rudeness (no kidding, I hadn't been rude at all, just not willing to play along with this), but didn't get away with it. Unbelievable, but not as bad as what's been described in >19 Chemren:.
35dlphcoracl
>34 SF-72:
You were victimized by a bookjacker. If you are unfamiliar with 'bookjackers' and do not know what the practice of bookjacking is, please read this post and the responses from other members of LT Fine Press Forum (see link).
https://www.librarything.com/topic/305075
For other LT FPF-ers and newer collectors who are also unfamiliar with this dishonest practice, read the entire post and the responses carefully to avoid similar disappointment. If you are unfamiliar with a bookseller or are uncertain about their reliability, raise your concerns and ask questions on this forum before making the purchase. Other LT-ers will gladly help to prevent you from being similarly victimized.
One final suggestion: consider carefully before making an expensive book purchase from a bookseller you are unfamiliar with. Again, ask other LT-ers for help and advice.
You were victimized by a bookjacker. If you are unfamiliar with 'bookjackers' and do not know what the practice of bookjacking is, please read this post and the responses from other members of LT Fine Press Forum (see link).
https://www.librarything.com/topic/305075
For other LT FPF-ers and newer collectors who are also unfamiliar with this dishonest practice, read the entire post and the responses carefully to avoid similar disappointment. If you are unfamiliar with a bookseller or are uncertain about their reliability, raise your concerns and ask questions on this forum before making the purchase. Other LT-ers will gladly help to prevent you from being similarly victimized.
One final suggestion: consider carefully before making an expensive book purchase from a bookseller you are unfamiliar with. Again, ask other LT-ers for help and advice.
36ambyrglow
The only bad Abebooks experience I’ve had involved a book that simply never showed up. Since the seller hadn’t given me a tracking number, my request for a refund went through without a hitch.
A month or so later, Abebooks contacted me on the seller’s behalf to say that the seller _had_ found a tracking number that indicated the book had been delivered, and would I be willing to reverse the refund? I said no, on the grounds that 1) I still didn’t actually have the book, 2) the tracking number didn’t demonstrate that it has been delivered to my house, just to somewhere in my zip code, so I had no way to confirm it was actually a tracking number for my purchase, and not an order sent to a different customer conveniently nearby, 3) the tracking number was for a package sent a good two weeks after I’d purchased the book, and 4) getting a tracking number more than a month after supposed delivery made it quite difficult to, say, ask my mail carrier if she remembered dropping off a package of the correct description at a different address the day before.
They let it rest. Still no idea what was up with that. Maybe the seller was trying to scam me; maybe they were just legitimately extremely disorganized. If one of my neighbors did get the book by accident, I hope they liked it, I guess.
A month or so later, Abebooks contacted me on the seller’s behalf to say that the seller _had_ found a tracking number that indicated the book had been delivered, and would I be willing to reverse the refund? I said no, on the grounds that 1) I still didn’t actually have the book, 2) the tracking number didn’t demonstrate that it has been delivered to my house, just to somewhere in my zip code, so I had no way to confirm it was actually a tracking number for my purchase, and not an order sent to a different customer conveniently nearby, 3) the tracking number was for a package sent a good two weeks after I’d purchased the book, and 4) getting a tracking number more than a month after supposed delivery made it quite difficult to, say, ask my mail carrier if she remembered dropping off a package of the correct description at a different address the day before.
They let it rest. Still no idea what was up with that. Maybe the seller was trying to scam me; maybe they were just legitimately extremely disorganized. If one of my neighbors did get the book by accident, I hope they liked it, I guess.
37bookist
>33 TheTotalLibrarian: I'm in the UK, and though I prefer Abe in many ways, I often order through Alibris when the seller is in the US. They use a reshipping system. The postage you pay is for the seller to ship to a hub in the US, then Alibris take charge of the shipping the rest of the way. It can be very slow (weeks or months) but cheap. My last order was a 3kg volume and the postage was £3.99.
Returns would be very expensive, of course. On a couple of occasions when I had problems I was offered and accepted a partial refund.
Returns would be very expensive, of course. On a couple of occasions when I had problems I was offered and accepted a partial refund.
38TheTotalLibrarian
>37 bookist: That's a useful tip. Thank you very much!
39What_What
Anyone can set up shop on Abe’s, and as such there will be a cross section of reputable big time bookstores, reputable smaller stores, and then the kind of seller that shows up here.
Unfortunately Abe’s doesn’t have a rating system, just a 5-star fulfillment indicator, which is essentially worthless.
Unfortunately Abe’s doesn’t have a rating system, just a 5-star fulfillment indicator, which is essentially worthless.
40SF-72
>35 dlphcoracl:
I know about bookjackers thanks to this forum, and this is possible. (And it's generally a very useful warning. I avoid those kinds of sellers like the plague since I read about the practice here. They are also a lot of bookjackers on amazon marketplace, at least in Germany.) But my impression with at least one of the sellers was that they'd sold their copy elsewhere and then tried to replace it with a cheaper one from another seller instead of just being honest about it and cancelling the order. (Which would have cost them ratings in the Abebooks system, so that might have been it.) Since a lot of sellers offer their books in several places at once, that can lead to problems if they don't cancel their listings asap on all other platforms. But again, you might be right and they were bookjackers. One was at least decent about it and refunded, but the other was clearly trying to get my money and the book.
I know about bookjackers thanks to this forum, and this is possible. (And it's generally a very useful warning. I avoid those kinds of sellers like the plague since I read about the practice here. They are also a lot of bookjackers on amazon marketplace, at least in Germany.) But my impression with at least one of the sellers was that they'd sold their copy elsewhere and then tried to replace it with a cheaper one from another seller instead of just being honest about it and cancelling the order. (Which would have cost them ratings in the Abebooks system, so that might have been it.) Since a lot of sellers offer their books in several places at once, that can lead to problems if they don't cancel their listings asap on all other platforms. But again, you might be right and they were bookjackers. One was at least decent about it and refunded, but the other was clearly trying to get my money and the book.
