Devine Comedy - The New Manuscript

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Devine Comedy - The New Manuscript

1Stephan68
Mar 7, 2021, 3:50 pm

Most people on this forum are probably aware of the version of Dante’s Inferno that George Cochran did for the Thornwillow Press. Apparently he is preparing a full version of the Devine Comedy with a different printer:

https://dante.facsimilefinder.com/english

2jveezer
Mar 7, 2021, 4:29 pm

Interesting! I'm glad he's completing the Comedy. There's not really any info on the parameters of the book itself on there. I'm good with my Thornwillow and other editions but I'm sure there will be plenty of interest in this...

3Green_krkr
Mar 7, 2021, 6:00 pm

Truly devine

4venkysuniverse
Mar 7, 2021, 6:33 pm

>1 Stephan68: Thanks for the link. I have the Thornwillow edition and quite eager to see the production details of the upcoming edition.

5Stephan68
Mar 9, 2021, 5:12 pm

I received an e-mail today that the Kickstarter campaign will launch 16th March.

6wcarter
Modificato: Mar 10, 2021, 3:20 am

This is the email mentioned by >5 Stephan68:





The sign-up page is at https://dante.facsimilefinder.com/english#form

7mnmcdwl
Mar 10, 2021, 4:14 am

Interesting! I have the Thornwillow Inferno, but I’ll be following this closely. It seems that unlike the Thornwillow, which has Italian on one side and English on the other, the two languages in this one are broken into separate volumes. That must have required redrawing the whole Inferno to get the images to match the text. I suspect the starting prices are for one language though...

8wcarter
Mar 12, 2021, 4:24 pm

A Kickstarter pre-launch has just been released for this book -
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/newdivinecomedy/la-divina-commedia-the-new-...

There have also been some answers to questions posed by potential purchasers posted by the publisher:-

“ While letterpress books are very nice, the problem of a letterpress book is that it totally dumbs the art down. George Cochrane stroke is subtle at times, his hand-writing shows the ink fading while he writes… this all disappears when you use letterpress. It completely erases the qualities of hand-touch.

Our printing choice will be super faithful to the original. We are employing all the techniques used to produce facsimiles of illuminated manuscripts to make the best replica we can. It will be like owning the original!”

There is also a YouTube video of the artwork arriving in San Marino from New York -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KBT_Kxoays

9astropi
Mar 12, 2021, 5:22 pm

I would like to support them in their effort to erect a book/monument of that size :)

10booksforreading
Mar 16, 2021, 4:08 pm

I have just taken another look at my Thornwillow Press's/Cochran's edition of Dante, and I decided not to support this new Kickstarter. It is not that easy to read, I am not that crazy about the art, and I am not SO excited about this project - I have other wonderful editions of Dante.
Plus, I wonder what happened between Cochran and Thornwillow press. If I remember correctly, the press was going to continue publishing the rest of the Divine Comedy. If it was Thornwillow Press's project to continue the publications, I would have supported it because I did it for the first book.

11wcarter
Modificato: Mar 16, 2021, 10:51 pm

>10 booksforreading:
There was a disagreement between the artist and the publisher.

12Redshirt
Mar 16, 2021, 6:22 pm

> 11 Disappointing about the dispute with Thornwillow. I held off on buying that edition for two reasons. First, I didn't want to buy Inferno without comfort that the rest of the Divine Comedy would be completed. That is no longer an issue. Second, while I respected the idea of handwriting the text, I had a concern that the handwriting would be taxing to read. I was pretty close to pulling the trigger today thinking that my respect for the effort of handwriting the text outweighed my concern about readability. But reading the Kickstarter more closely I noted that only the Italian version is actually handwritten and the English version is a digital font meant to mimic handwriting. Maybe silly, but that seems to me to be the worst of both worlds. So now I'll spend the next few days debating.

13jveezer
Mar 16, 2021, 8:28 pm

>11 wcarter: Not a good idea, one would think. I expect the fine/private press world is small and presses that don't pay their artists will have a hard time finding new ones...

14const-char-star
Mar 16, 2021, 9:52 pm

>11 wcarter: Do you have a source for that?

15Glacierman
Modificato: Mar 16, 2021, 10:09 pm

Interesting project, but I think I will stick with my Nonesuch Press Dante. Letterpress, beautiful paper and readable type. Comic book lettering for Dante is, to me, ridiculous. For some, this graphic novel approach to the work will be attractive, but it is something of an insult to Dante in my eyes, but, to each his own.

16wcarter
Mar 16, 2021, 10:09 pm

>14 const-char-star:
Yes, a very reliable one, but confidential.

17mnmcdwl
Modificato: Mar 16, 2021, 10:17 pm

One major difference that hasn't been stated yet is that it seems the English translation is different from the Thornwillow version. The Thornwillow uses Anthony Esolen's verse translation and this new one uses Charles S. Singleton's prose translation. It was also mentioned in the FSD group, but the heritage edition of it has double the number of color pages as the two lower-priced collector's and anniversary tiers. I tentatively backed at the collector's tier level, but will take some time to think about it. If anyone has any comments on the Singleton translation quality, I would be very appreciative.

18JacobHolt
Mar 16, 2021, 11:12 pm

>17 mnmcdwl: It's an excellent translation, but it seems like an odd choice for this project. It's clear and literal (prose, not poetry), and I've found it very useful when I'm looking at some portion of the Italian text and trying to puzzle out the meaning (with my half-remembered college Latin). But I prefer Esolen, Ciardi, or even Longfellow, because I prefer to experience the Comedy as a poem.

19Sorion
Mar 17, 2021, 1:28 am

I own the half leather Thornwillow Dante and it is stunning. A real accomplishment. However, it is not something I read, or ever will. The font gives me headaches. The idea and the art is wonderful, the letterpress is great and the leather cover is fantastic.

This edition only has one of the 3 things that attracted me to the original edition so it will be something I pass on. At this point I’m not sure I’m buying another book this year until 1984.

20booksforreading
Mar 17, 2021, 2:29 pm

>11 wcarter:
Thank you!
There is something that feels strange about this information, though I completely trust that you received it from an informative source. Don't they usually have contracts? If there is a contract, the company can be held accountable for breaking it. There must have been problems from both parties...
In any case, I am going to pass on this new project...

21grifgon
Modificato: Mar 17, 2021, 2:44 pm

>20 booksforreading:

I can shed a little light on the situation. I wouldn't normally intrude on a discussion like this, but I feel like the record should be straightened out.

The idea that Thornwillow didn't pay George isn't really true. As with many fine press contracts, George agreed to receive a significant number of copies of the edition (100+, amounting to over $20,000 in product) in payment for his work, and also to retain the rights to his work. This is, by normal publishing standards, a generous contract, *especially* given the retention of rights. (Which allows George to reprint and profit from the work again and again, as he is doing now.) In truth, fine presses don't really make profits, so there isn't much money to pay artists with anyway. So, many artists opt to receive copies instead.

Without divulging too much info without permission, I can say that of the two dozen-or-so artist contracts I've been privy to, the Thornwillow contract with George was actually more generous than the average. Usually, an artist receives a few copies, and that's that – almost never a pallet of them.

Could people feel that George should have been paid with money instead of books? Definitely. But this was the contract, and Thornwillow kept up its end of the bargain.

George is a talented artist and wonderful person. Thornwillow is an honorable business, run by wonderful people. I would hate for the impression to be given that somehow they're not paying their artists.

I think >wcarter's amended comment, that there was a "dispute," is a completely accurate summary of the situation. I also know that the folks at Thornwillow are excited about the publication of the rest of George's opus, and wish him luck with it. At the end of the day, a work of this magnitude with watercolored artwork may be a better fit for a digital publisher than a letterpress one.

My source on this is myself, as I was Thornwillow's managing editor for three years. I wasn't really involved much with "Inferno," however, as it was in the works well before I arrived.

22booksforreading
Mar 17, 2021, 2:51 pm

>21 grifgon:
Thank you! This is exactly as I thought...

23Lukas1990
Mar 17, 2021, 4:20 pm

>15 Glacierman: The Nonesuch Press Dante is perfect! I can't understand why people are so interested in this new comic book edition when they can spend their money on true masterpieces like Nonesuch Press Dante.

24katielouise
Mar 17, 2021, 6:20 pm

>23 Lukas1990: Some of us like comic books

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

25kdweber
Mar 17, 2021, 7:04 pm

>23 Lukas1990: Especially if one likes two tone bindings, orange boards and a white spine ;-)

26Glacierman
Mar 18, 2021, 12:23 pm

>25 kdweber: The spine on my copy is orange, oddly enough, like the rest of the binding.

27kdweber
Mar 18, 2021, 10:34 pm

>26 Glacierman: Lucky you! It's very rare to find the Nonesuch Dante without a faded spine. My copy is in great condition except for the toned spine.

28cbellia
Mar 20, 2021, 9:28 am

Glacierman; I agree that it is slanderous to turn Dante into a comic book. But it is nice to have a copy with new illustrations. I don't think the books are competing with eachother. New interpretations are always welcome. Just not comic books.

29astropi
Modificato: Apr 4, 2021, 3:44 pm

So, I was looking through the kickstarter recently, and one of the illustrations seemed so familiar, but I couldn't place my finger on it... until I realized that the artist had (shall we say for now) "borrowed" from DC Comics! Yes, to me it seems obvious that the artist had taken Jack Kirby's Etrigan the Demon and inserted it into the manuscript. You could argue it is homage, but somehow just doesn't sit well with me.

30abysswalker
Apr 4, 2021, 2:12 pm

>29 astropi: for me, the moral line would be whether the influence was acknowledged, perhaps in a preface or afterword. Who knows about actual legalities, but I can’t imagine they’d be particularly permissive involving DC intellectual property.

Before throwing around words like plagiarism, perhaps it would be responsible to reach out to the artist and see if there is an explanation?

(I personally find the level of taste in this illustration and page design to be somewhat lacking, and the project of comic lettering an edition of the Divine Comedy did not appeal to me from the beginning; I mention this only to make clear that I have no particular interest in defending the illustration choice.)

31abysswalker
Modificato: Apr 4, 2021, 2:27 pm

>29 astropi: I just checked, and there is a question about this on the Kickstarter page. Cochrane acknowledges the reference:

Good spot! Yes, It’s Kirby!

Because I see the connection between illuminated manuscripts and comics, I sprinkle references in where “appropriate.” When I read of demons at the Gates of Dis, I immediately thought of Kirby! By the way, there are lots more to find!

Not sure whether that would change the judgment for you or anyone else, but it is more info from which to draw conclusions.

32astropi
Modificato: Apr 4, 2021, 3:57 pm

>30 abysswalker: >31 abysswalker: thank you very much!
"plagiarism" is defined as
the practice of taking someone else's work or ideas and passing them off as one's own.

I know in comics, movies, shows, art in general there is often homages to inspirational work and that is perfectly reasonable. Cochrane noted Jack Kirby's influence in his answer to a question, so my question is - is that enough? Does that count as "acknowledgement"? I do also wonder if DC would allow this? My instinct says that if Warner Bros found out about this they would demand the references be removed. Of course, they might not care, but anything copyright these days especially pop-culture seems to be enforced with an iron fist.

Also, how do people feel about having pop-culture inserted in La Divina Commedia?

33grifgon
Apr 4, 2021, 4:20 pm

The Divine Comedy is itself so highly referential that I think it's more or less in the spirit of the text.

That said, the impression the artwork leaves on me is a big ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

34abysswalker
Apr 4, 2021, 5:09 pm

(Tangent, maybe an admin can fix the spelling typo in the title? It bothers me every time I see it, and it probably hurts the usefulness of search engine rankings too.)

35jveezer
Apr 4, 2021, 8:27 pm

>32 astropi: I absolutely love the Sandow Birk and Marcus Sanders version of the Divine Comedy, with it's illustrations including San Francisco landmarks and references and the denizens of hell and heaven updated to include some of my least favorite U.S. politicians (I believe they're primarily in the Inferno) and other. So heck yes on pop and modern references, particularly in illustration.

I'm trying to remember an example without grabbing the book: I believe people like that Nobel Peace Prize joke Henry Kissinger might be in the hot place. Makes sense to me.

Full disclaimer to head of any protests: I totally admit that the Sanders/Birk text is more a transmutation than a translation. I have plenty of versions faithful to Dante and Beatrice.

36jveezer
Apr 4, 2021, 8:28 pm

>34 abysswalker: If there is a way to fix the spelling as an admin, I don't see it. Maybe the creator of the post has that power...

37abysswalker
Modificato: Apr 4, 2021, 8:41 pm

>36 jveezer: hmm I wonder if it is something that needs to be enabled? See here:

https://www.librarything.com/topic/329872

(In any case, not particularly important.)

38U_238
Apr 4, 2021, 11:37 pm

I believe one of the new admins can, they've fixed titles in the FSD group.

Also, 100 copies and rights to the illustrations? I haven't been privy to other contracts between illustrators and fine presses, but it does immediately seem quite generous.

At 100 copies, they might as well have immediately created a competitor selling their own genuine product.

39georgecochrane
Apr 21, 2021, 12:07 pm

Hi, George Cochrane here, the artist and creator of the "La Divina Commedia – The New Manuscript".

I wanted to jump into this conversation much earlier, but my teaching commitments and keeping up with the excitement generated by the Kickstarter campaign have kept me occupied. I’m excited to be available now to answer any questions you may have about the project!

Thanks to those of you who are supporting and talking about my work. Reading your comments, good or bad, adds to my ongoing critical examination of Dante’s masterpiece. I'm truly grateful for all your opinions!

RE: clarification of TWP arrangement

Per our agreement, I received copies of my book. The majority of them were in unbound flat sheets. I received no other remuneration for books sold.

RE: Why I chose the current publisher for the full Divina Commedia

In the course of my research, I encountered the glory of facsimile reproduction. Over time, beginning as a customer, I developed a wonderful relationship with Giovanni Scorcioni of Facsimile Finder. (There is a delightful narrative of our story you can find here: https://giovanni-facsimilefinder.medium.com) Despite the beauty of letterpress printing, it is not always suited to faithful reproduction of certain artwork. Woodcuts reproduce very well, but fine line drawings do not. With facsimiles however, I could imagine how accurate a printed reproduction could be. After finishing the manuscript and art for Purgatorio, Giovanni and I decided to partner in the publication of the complete Commedia for 2021.

Giovanni is an expert consultant for the production of high quality facsimiles of illuminated manuscripts. I’m closely following the production of my upcoming book. The first step was to digitize the art and the text. It was not simply scanned. Giovanni’s expert team employs a special stand and camera that are used to shoot century-old illuminated manuscripts to obtain the highest quality reproduction. From my point of view as an artist, this is VERY exciting! I’ve also been told that they’re looking into special inks to render the depth of the black of my Sennelier shellac-based India ink with all its luminous shades and subtleties.

RE: My homage to Kirby and other artists

My entire work is peppered with citations from the 700 years of art inspired by the Divine Comedy (Grifo, illuminated manuscripts, Doré, Botticelli), and with references to my passion for history of comic books. As other readers have noted in this thread, the word “plagiarism” does not apply to “fair use” rights of one artist to include an homage to another artist’s work.

RE: Charles Singleton English translation

Singleton is my preferred translation for a number of reasons. Poetic translation is incredibly challenging, if not impossible. Dante is particularly problematic as he employed a polysemous language, which “bakes in” a multiplicity of meanings. A translator, without a corresponding word in English, must choose select a synonym. This necessary constraint limits the scope our understanding of Dante original work.

In addition, how does a translator address Dante’s terza rima form? If the translation follows the interlocking rhyme scheme, phonetic limitations present extra challenges. This choice often results in a linguistic awkwardness not present in Dante’s poem. When Dante is “awkward” in his language, he does it for effect, to underscore a theme. Singleton sidesteps this issue by turning to prose. His aim is to accurately reflect Dante’s text, untethered by formal poetic demands. His scholarship remains essential. The prose allows for greater plasticity in the page design, as the lines need not “line up” with the original. This allows us to have the text nestled neatly inside the drawings. Poetic translations in English have much longer line length than the original Italian, and can cut into the artwork.

Grazie for taking the time to read this: I hope I have clarified all the points you have raised in this discussion thread.

Don’t hesitate to keep your questions coming!

40punkzip
Apr 27, 2022, 9:12 pm

Has anyone received this yet, and if so what are your thoughts? I just got a shipping notice today (from Italy) and unfortunately there is already an exception notice.

41Levin40
Apr 28, 2022, 3:38 am

>40 punkzip: Interesting. I also got a shipping notice yesterday followed by an exception. I called DHL and they told me the exception was automatically raised as it wasn't loaded onto the truck yesterday morning, though was nothing to worry about. And sure enough, I've just checked and it seems to be on its way today.

42punkzip
Apr 28, 2022, 11:59 am

>41 Levin40: Thanks, that saves me from having to inquire. Interesting story, I was actually billed for shipping in September 2021 as I recall - when this happened I thought I would receive this book earlier than the FS Divine Comedy LE which I also ordered.

43jsg1976
Modificato: Apr 29, 2022, 2:48 am

>40 punkzip: I got my copy last week. Overall I'm pleased with it (I got the collector edition). I think they did a very nice job with the bodoni binding, and I like the design of the boards. The slipcase text is printed in two colors with a fleur-de-lis design, and is attractive and seems sturdy. According to the colophon, the page blocks are the same across all editions (except for painting or gilding the page edges on higher end editions). The paper itself is Fedrigoni Arena Natural Rough, which I haven't run across before that I can recall, but which has a nice weight to it and takes the illustrations well. The printing is crisp, although the darkness of the printing seems a little uneven (although it is possible that that is a design choice, since it is intended to mimic his handwriting). It's a big book, similar in size to the The Two Towers from the new Folio LOTR LE, but feels significantly less dense (although the LOTR set is a seriously weighty set). It uses the Singleton translation, but there is no introduction or commentary, and, like the FS Dante LE, does not include any of the footnotes. I really like that the subscriber list is printed as part of the text block, and not provided in a separate leaflet as Thornwillow does.

The colophon says the illustrations were hand-colored, although I assume they mean they were originally hand-colored and then reproduced, rather than actually hand-colored in each edition like the higher-end states of the Hand & Eye Wind in the Willows. The illustrations themselves seem to get more abstract as the text progresses, and the impression I get is that the color illustrations are more prevalent in Inferno compared to the other two books (I have not counted - that's just by flipping through). I'm sure it has something to do with the subject matter lending itself less well to illustration as you get into the third book, but it almost feels like there was more effort put in to Inferno from an illustration and layout perspective. Unlike in Inferno, where the text on each page is a little more organically set around the illustrations, in Paradiso, there's a lot of gray backgrounds and a number of the pages look like there was a text block superimposed over an illustration as though someone laid the background image out in Word and typed the text in a text box that was then pulled on top using the bring-to-front feature.

Don't get me wrong - the manuscript is pretty impressive accomplishment, and I am happy with it overall. I just can't help feeling when I'm looking at it that he ran out of steam near the end (which, given the scope of the project, wouldn't have been unreasonable). Would be curious to see what others think.

44punkzip
Apr 29, 2022, 10:42 am

>43 jsg1976: Thanks, I got the collector edition as well. Do you have the Thornwillow Inferno as well? If so, is the Inferno part of this volume identical to that, except for the coloring (and of course no letterpress)?

45jsg1976
Apr 29, 2022, 10:45 am

>44 punkzip: I do not have the Thornwillow Inferno

46punkzip
Modificato: Mag 2, 2022, 7:33 pm

>43 jsg1976: Just got this and I agree with your comments 100%. I got the collector edition as well, which I think is still available. Is the collector edition worth the cost - currently $289? IMO yes. There is also a $189 anniversary edition but I like the Bodoni binding of this edition and the boards are quite attractive.

I also have the FS Divine Comedy LE and my plan is to read both at the same time. I've read the Inferno before but not the entire Divine Comedy. The Cochrane is a prose (Singleton) translation, while the FS is a poetic (Kirkpatrick) translation so I like the idea of reading both at the same time. Notably these are both modern, copyrighted translations, as opposed to the public domain translations which are typically found in older fine press editions. Unfortunately, neither has footnotes so I will have to use a separate volume for that.

47wcarter
Modificato: Mag 11, 2022, 5:37 am

I have received these books in both English and Italian, and they are superb. The coloured pages are striking and imaginative. Very good value for what you receive, particularly if you took advantage of the early bird pricing.

Pictures of the English version can be seen here,

and the Italian version here.

Click on the images to enlarge.

A limited number of copies are still available from the publisher here.