Book Discussion: The Silmarillion

Please err on the side of caution and tag anything you suspect is a spoiler as such.

Placemarking!

Thanks for starting the thread, clam.

I'm curious. Has anyone given the audio book of this a try?

>3 Narilka: I will be starting it next week! (And I really hope it doesn't suck. If it does I can return it, luckily.)

>2 libraryperilous: You are most welcome.

Perhaps we can discuss chapters as people finish? The first chapter/section is only 9 pages, on both my Kindle and paperback copies.

>3 Narilka:

I have listened to it twice, once on cassette, once on CD, both the same performance by Martin Shaw. It's been a while now but I recall thinking it was excellent.

>4 clamairy:, >6 Crypto-Willobie: I've tried reading the book the traditional way twice and DNF'd both times. Maybe I should give audio a try.

>7 Narilka:
I often use an audio reading to help me push thru a long or difficult book. (Ulysses, Paradise Lost, Moby-Dick, Absalom Absalom, many others.)

Also, don't get hung up in the early chapters, the cosmogony -- power thru them.

Furthermore, there are also 'alternative' Silmarillion texts that might feel more Tolkien-storylike, such as The Children of Hurin which expands and humanizes one of the major sections of the Silmarillion; or The Fall of Gondolin from volume II of Book of Lost Tales (which is also showcased in a recent collection that includes other Gondolin materials). Hurin comes on audio too (read by Christopher Lee!), though Gondolin does not.

>7 Narilka: I recently listened to a youtube LOTR geek ramble on about Tom Bombadil and he reviewed some of the first couple of chapter of The Silmarillion in passing and it helped, strangely. I mentioned this in my thread so I apologize for the repeat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mw9uKzy4GRs

I would love to reread this, and may use this as an excuse to buy myself a hardcover version. At the moment I am without any version whatsoever. Will at least be following this thread.

For those who are participating, are you reading the letter or just jumping in?

>11 Karlstar: What letter?

You know, the letter delivered by owl on your 11th birthday, inviting you to attend the Imladris School of Witchcraft and Wizardry... wait, wrong fantasy book.

>11 Karlstar:, >12 Jim53:, >13 MrAndrew: Perfect comedy act there! Bravo!

>14 Sakerfalcon: I didn't do it! :)

>12 Jim53: After the prolog, there's a long letter, written by Tolkien to a friend at the publishing company, basically explaining why he thought the Silmarillion should be published with LoTR and along the way, giving a lot of the history.

The Silmarillion - kindle edition

I don't usually read wikis or things like that about LoTR, so I am writing about what I'm reading here in the book without looking up other references, so if I am unclear or flat out wrong about something, I don't mind if people point it out.

This is the second edition, according to the preface by Christopher Tolkien.

The first part of the book is 'From a Letter by J. R. R. Tolkien to Milton Waldman, 1951'. The original letter is lost, this is from a typescript of the original, which according to Christopher, introduced some errors. It is also reprinted in The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien. It is, as Christopher says, both an explanation why Tolkien wanted the Silmarillion to be published with LoTR and also a summary of The Silmarillion. I thought it was a good summary, but in places contains too little detail to be useful, even though it is 20 pages long. In my previous readings I had skipped over this, but I'm more interested in everything Middle-Earth these days, including how it was created.

Part One - Ainulindale 'The Music of the Ainur'. The basic beginning myth of Middle-Earth, or Arda. Eru, also called Iluvatar, creates the Ainur (aka Valar), the gods of Arda. There's a distinction between the Ainur, who never came to Arda, and the Valar, who did. Valar are Ainur but Ainur aren't Valar, got it? The AInulindale used to be the hardest part of the book for me to get through. It describes how the Ainur actually sing the world into existence, then there's discord in the singing, then Eru shows the Ainur that oops, that all hasn't happened yet, so they have to go into the world and make it happen.
There are two references in this section to the Flame Imperishable, which in the next chapter is called something similar.
Basically, Tolkien's version of the world creation myth. I find it confusing sometimes keeping track of whether Ea is the universe, or just the area around the world and what's part of Arda and what isn't.

Milton was clearly influenced by the first book of the Silmarillion.

>16 Karlstar: I love Tolkien's explanation for the presence of evil, when the Supreme God (Ilúvatar) intends only good. The idea that he cannot remove evil, because Melkor's voice is would into the fabric of the song, and the single thread cannot be removed without destroying the structural integrity of the whole, is wonderful.

Was anyone else strongly reminded of Edith Hamilton's Mythology when reading this book? :)

>18 -pilgrim-: I have to admit, I like the Ainulindale much more now than I used to. It is quite elegant, even if his astronomy is really, really confusing. (edited. Not as confusing as my writing though.)

>19 Marissa_Doyle: Absolutely.

Part 2, Valaquenta

"Account of the Valar and Maiar according to the lore of the Eldar"

Basically a listing of the Valar and like a classic mythology, what portfolio each Valar is most associated with. Wind, Ocean, Light, Life, Healing, etc. One important quote that may ring a bell with many people "... and the Secret Fire was sent to burn at the heart of the World, and it was called Ea."

When he says Ea or World, according to the Index of Names, it means the universe.

Among the Valier, the female gods, is Varda, the Lady of the Stars, also called Elbereth. The Maia include Melian, Olorin and Sauron 'The Abhorred', aka Gorthaur the Cruel. Don't think I had ever noticed that he was also called Gorthar the Cruel before. Tolkien doesn't, however, give any other names for Olorin at this point and Olorin is never mentioned again in the the Quenta Silmarillion, at least according to his short paragraph on page 22

Olorin. The middle child of the Maia.

>22 MrAndrew: Not as good as the oldest, not as terrible as the youngest? :)

Probably. But definitely forgotten. I bet Ilúvatar never even called on their birthday.

>21 Karlstar: I presume you recognise the name from LotR, though?

>25 -pilgrim-: Yes ma'am! Same with the reference to the Secret Fire/Flame Imperishable.

How's everyone coming along with their reading and listening? Ready to dive in?

>22 MrAndrew: >23 Karlstar: >24 MrAndrew: I had forgotten that the big O is referred to as the wisest of the Maiar. Interesting, then, that he was not chosen to lead the White Council. Perhaps his campaign technique was faulty, or he just didn't want it as badly as someone else.

>27 Karlstar: I've just finished the two short pieces and started QS proper. >15 Karlstar: My edition from 1977 does not contain a letter. Going quite slowly these days; by all means don't wait for me ;-)

I'll likely get time to make comments on QS on Friday, which I will probably break up into parts, since there is a lot covered.

>28 Jim53: Not everyone WANTS to be a politician. I think he is quite adverse to having power over others, bring of the opinion that power corrupts.

And, since I can't go to get my copy (because of the travel restrictions) I am working from memory. At what point was the White Council formed?

>30 -pilgrim-: I'm working from memory too. I believe it had a fairly short existence during the third age. I seem to recall a similar gathering during the second age, but I don't know if the Istari were involved at that point.

>31 Jim53: According to the Akallabeth,

the White Council came into being the second time The Necromancer appeared at Dol Guldur. "But at length the Shadow returned and its power increased; and in that time was first made the Council of the Wise that is called the White Council,"

Moving on to the next section of The Silmarillion, Quenta Silmarillion - The History of the Silmarils

The beginning of this section to me is a bit confusing, almost as if Tolkien decided to try multiple creation myths to see which one fit best. There is a succession of conflicts with Melkor as he tried to undo the work of the Valar.

Before Arda (Middle-Earth) was even complete, Tulkas joined the Valar and Melkor was forced to flee from the world. Then the Valar worked on finishing the world and created the first lights, Illuin in the north and Ormal in the south, filled with light by Varda and put on mountains far taller than mountains of later days. It is sort of clear from this section that at this point, Arda is flat! The Valar live on an island in a lake in the center of Arda. Melkor sneaks back to Arda, builds his first fortress, summons spirits which must have been the Maia previously mentioned and tears down the lights, basically breaking the world.

Following this destruction, Middle-Earth then is reformed as the Valar move to Aman, across the ocean on the 'borders of the world', past Aman are the Walls of the Night. (space?) They then build Valinor, their realm, on Aman and Vlamar, their city. Yavanna creates the two trees, Telperion and Laurelin.

>33 Karlstar: As regards geography: Arda is very definitely flat. The change is a specific event - somewhat analogous to the Flood in Christian cosmology. That is why it is "now" (from the perspective of LotR) impossible to sail to Aman without the favour of the Valar, because "now the seas are bent".

Tolkien tried out a lot more cosmological myths than made it into this volume (as described in The Book of Lost Tales, Part I).

In one that I remember, all the Valar come in male/female pairs (like Hindu deities) and there is a war god and goddess, who also preside over a Valhalla-style afterlife.

The war pair are not evil, but obviously war cannot be considered part of the "perfection of Arda" that Ilúvatar intends, so this was a concept that Tolkien had to drop, because it does not fit with Ainulindalë.

>31 Jim53: (Thanks >32 Karlstar:) That's what I thought. If the White Council was assembled at the point when "the Shadow was growing in the East", then this is the point when only O suspects what the Necromancer is. If you recall from the Hobbit, and LotR, he then does a lot of secret exploring to confirm his suspicions, even to venturing into the dungeons of the Necromancer in Dol Guldur.

Going sneaking around enemy territory is not really compatible with being the administrative head of an organisation. Also, the other Istari do not agree with him, and (as I mentioned earlier) O has a horror of the type of authority that compels compliance, because even if one intends well, it ends in tyranny (which is why both Gandalf and Galadriel advoided taking the One Ring). So it would be against his nature to order them to investigate - which means he needs to be free to do so himself.

>34 -pilgrim-: All good points. There are considerable changes in geography all through The Silmarillion, plus the changes in light sources.

Further to my comment on the early version containing a Valhalla-style afterlife:

I suspect this is the Catholic in Tolkien realising that he needs an alternative destination for those who do not know the Valar as servants of Ilúvatar, and are therefore neither serving them nor in rebellion against them. It is therefore an alternative to "the Blessed Land" (i.e. heaven) - rather than a purgatory, they simply get the sort of things that they enjoyed in life.

In The Book of Lost Tales, Part I it is made very clear that Tolkien's original intention was to create an origin myth for the English people.

In one of the early stories, it is explicitly stated that Tol Eressëa will developing into England, and its capital, Koltirion into Warwick (Tolkien's home at the time). At which point the fact that Tol Eressëa is initially located closer to Aman than any other part Middle-Earth, and thus more blessed, is a demonstration of Tolkien's love if his country! He really did think that the countryside in which he lived then was 'the closest thing to heaven'.

But the idea that this world is the distant past of our world gets complicated for a devout Catholic, as Tolkien was.

The Valar, being "sent into Arda", are angels. And Tolkien at first included worship of the Valar at fanes i.e. a form of natural religion similar to the Classical Roman, and then explicitly decided that there would be no religion in this world (other than the false worship demanded by evil beings such as Melkor and his servants), since worship was unnecessary when the Valar walked among the people of Middle-Earth and could be communicated with directly.

But the correspondences get tricky to arrange, and that seems to me the strongest argument for why the war deities had to go. The theological side of the creation myth - "what was Ilúvatar's purpose in creating the world (Arda) and the universe (Ëa)?" - won out over the early urge to echo the mythologies that he had loved reading as a child and young man (particularly the Norse).

The Destruction of the Lamps is a Fall myth. The world prior to that was in a completely blessed state, analogous to the Garden of Eden.

Quenta Silmarillion, Chapters 1 - 3

This part is relatively straightforward. The Valar, including Melkor, who lurks in his fortress in the north, wait for the Elves to appear. The world is dark, lit only by stars as the light of the two Trees does not reach Middle-Earth.

Being impatient, Aule makes the dwarves. Iluvatar, seeing that his desire for creation and teaching is pure, allows the fathers of the dwarves to live, pointing out to Aule that they were part of his original music. They will wait in hibernation until the Elves come. Varda places more stars, constellations and possibly planets in the sky to provide more light. The Elves appear in the East and first meet servants of Melkor. Some are stolen away so Melkor can twist them into orcs. The second battle between the Valar and Melkor happens, the north of the world is broken again and the Elves are summoned to Aman. The elves are now separated into 4 groups - the Vanyar, Noldor, Teleri and Quendi, those who ignored or refused the summons.

Chapters 4 - 6

This tells the story of how Elwe (Thingol) met Melian the Maia, which is the beginning of the most famous family tree in Middle-Earth. Ulmo creates a mobile island to transport the Elves to Aman. Finwe, Feanor (aka Curufinwe) and all of the other F-something Noldor elves are introduced. There's some C-something's too. To be fair, there's also some A's and M's, but way too many Fs and Cs for first names. These are some of my favorite characters so I don't mind, but I can see how it can get confusing.

Feanor, despite being the 2nd generation, is clearly the most noble/powerful of all the Elves. Tolkien makes it sound as if his mother actually sacrificed her own spirit when he was born and the flame burns bright in him. The Teleri finally arrive via Tol Erresea. Feanor starts to learn how to craft from the chained Melkor.

Sorry I'm late! I started listening to my Audible copy a couple of days ago. I'm only on Chapter 5. I'm not totally sold on this narrator. I find his tone slightly ghoulish when he's reading. I keep picturing Tim Curry, and waiting for him to cackle for some reason. I am slowly getting used to him, so it's less of an issue than it was at first.

There was no letter, so I will have to look for it in my hard (or Kindle) copy at some point.

>38 clamairy: I will hold off on posting more to let you get ahead.

>39 Karlstar: Thank you, but please don't wait for me. One of my demon spawn is coming for a visit, so I won't have much time to listen for the almost a week.

I do not have access to any of my copies of The Silmarillion, so my comments have been based on memory.

But I have just started reading The Kalevala (a late Christmas present), and am already struck by just how much is influence is visible in Aulindalë.

>41 -pilgrim-: Your memory is very good!

>20 Karlstar: I did purchase my hardcover, first edition published in U.S.A. I have finished Ainulindale. I think it is my absolute favorite Creation story. Very visual, and I can almost hear the music. I see the wonder of the Ainur, their dismay, then followed by even more profound wonder.

>43 MrsLee: Wow, nice find! I need to get a hardcover. I read it this time on my Kindle as Amazon made it available for free.

Glad you can join us and that you're enjoying it.

I'm up to Chapter 13.

>37 Karlstar: Fëanor may have been mighty, but he made some very poor life choices.

Was Feanor infected by 'ofermōde'?

"The word “ofermode” is somewhat ambiguous in its meaning and has been much debated, not least by Tolkien himself. He wrote an essay on “ofermode” in which he goes into detail to try and explain its true significance. Ofermod can be seen as a direct result of extreme Northern courage. When the unflinching will goes beyond the point of no return, it turns into selfish chivalry and overconfidence. Characters should therefore be aware of this and not fall into the trap."

Btw, how do you pronounce Feanor? Based on a vague memory of Elvish pronunciation rules I've always said fay-ANN-or

>46 Crypto-Willobie: That is exactly how the Audible narrator is pronouncing it. And, yes. he might have been! I have never heard that term before.

>46 Crypto-Willobie: His name is actually Feänor, not "Feanor".

I have always interpreted the diaeresis over the "a" to have its standard meaning in English: that the two vowels are to be pronounced separately. Hence "fay-ANN-or".

However a Finnish friend tells me that "a" and "ä" are treated as different letters in Finnish - which may be relevant, given that Tolkien based Quenya on Finnish, apparently. "A" is like Southern English "a" (i.e. a bit like a short "ah") and "ä" is like "ay" in "ay")

So, if Quenya uses Finnish pronunciation, I suppose it would be "Feh-AY-nor".

>48 -pilgrim-: When I went Googling for the correct spelling yesterday what popped up was the way I spelled it in my post. I used it because I'm listening and not looking at the page. So I just assumed you were right when I read your post just now. But then I went to look at my hardcover copy, and it is indeed spelled Fëanor.

>49 clamairy: Oops. Thanks.
I was going on memory, after googling "Feänor" to check...

>49 clamairy:, >50 -pilgrim-:
Well, a diaeresis goes on the second vowel, so it isn't that.
And Finnish does not have "ë", so it isn't that either.

I do not remember Tolkien claiming to have invented a new alphabet for the Latin transcription of Quenya.

So I am intrigued. What did he mean by "ë"?

double differentiation of energy?

Tolkien's little-known hobby: dabbling in physics.

>51 -pilgrim-:

"ë" = eh...

>53 Crypto-Willobie: As compared to "e"=?

>54 -pilgrim-: As in "meh"... Haha...

I'm very far behind and have been avoiding this thread until I catch up, but I think I won't do that. I remember enough from my last reading that nothing is really a spoiler. Too many posts to catch up on otherwise!

Reading in Valaquenta now. Funny, I said I was done reading mythology for awhile after I finished the Greek Myths, but here I am back at it. At least there is less ravishing in this one.

>56 MrsLee: Yep. When reading Greek Myths I had to keep reminding myself, "This is just a metaphor for the overthrow of a matriarchal society, worshipping a female deity, by a patriarchal one, with a male god...this is just a metaphor for the overthrow of a matriarchal society, worshipping a female deity, by a patriarchal one, with a male god... this is ..."

>49 clamairy:, >51 -pilgrim-:, >53 Crypto-Willobie:

I doubt I will be able to access to An Introduction to Elvish or most of The History of Middle-Earth for some time yet, given current travel restrictions here. So I have had to resort to Wikipedia:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elvish_languages_(Middle-earth)
That article states that ë is not being used as a distinct vowel, and that the double dot is used as a diaeresis.

But a diaeresis is always on the second vowel of the pair. Examples in that article show ë as appearing as both the first and the second letter in vowel pairs.

I doubt that an Oxford professor of English, one, Moreover, with a lifelong preoccupation with morphology, would be mistaken in his use of language.

So I presume instead that the Wikipedia article is erroneous. But I cannot find any alternative interpretation.

My Finnish friend confirms that ë means nothing to him.

So what was Tolkien's intention? I am hoping Crypto-Willobie can point me in the direction of an explanation.
(And thanks to@clamairy for pointing me towards this particular linguistic rabbit-hole.)

Great conversation folks!

Quenta Silmarillion, chapters 7 -9
The Vanyar, Noldor are now in Aman, the Teleri are nearby. The Two Trees provide light for Aman, waxing and waning during the day, though I wonder how much light they provide for the rest of Middle-Earth.
Even though Arda is flat at this point, the eastern most parts of Arda or anything on the other sides of mountains is in shade. I have to keep reminding myself that parts of this are 100 years old and Tolkien was not an astronomer. It is a fairy tale!
Feanor captures the light of the Two Trees in the Silmarils, art he learned from Aule.

Feanor makes the Silmarils. "...Varda hallowed the Silmarils, so that thereafter no mortal flesh, nor hands unclean, nor anything of evil will might touch them..." Now we have the first of the corruption of the children of Iluvatar as Melkor starts turning the elves away from the Valar so he can get the Silmarils. The Noldor start making weapons. Melkor sets the elves against each other, brother against brother. Feanor is temporarily banished and he and his family build Formenos, on Aman.
Melkor leaves and finds Ungoliant, who lives in the shadows of the mountains on Aman. Melkor and Ungoliant kill the Two Trees, leaving the Silmarils as the only source of their light.
Melkor steals the Silmarils from the fortress of Formenos and kills Finwe, Feanor's father. Feanor, seeing that the Valar will not immediately pursue Melkor, whom he now names Morgoth, talks most of the Noldor into following him in pursuit. To leave the island, they ask the Teleri for their ships, the Teleri refuse and the two kindreds fight. The Noldor take the ships, but there aren't enough for all of the Noldor. Feanor and his sons use the ships to get to Middle-Earth in the north, then burn the ships, forcing the rest to try a harrowing trek across an ice bridge.

>59 Karlstar: I forget: are there stars at this point?

Given that
(I) the elves who have "not seen the light of Aman" are sometimes called Dark Elves
(II) elves have superb night vision
I do wonder whether Tolkien was actually envisaging the inhabitants of Middle-Earth as wandering under starlight, and residual light from the Trees.

>60 -pilgrim-: Yes, there are. Earlier, when the Valar became concerned that the elves would waken in darkness, Varda placed more stars. At this point Tolkien described constellations and possibly other planets, but that may have just been brighter stars.

>60 -pilgrim-: It described about the Elves waking and that the first thing they saw were the stars.

I believe that there was no other light at that time in Middle Earth, because it mentioned that although Melkor had flames, they were hidden in murk and darkness.

>61 Karlstar:, >62 MrsLee: In that case, I would take the perpetual shadow as being deliberate.

Quenta Silmarillion, chapters 10-12

Chapter 10 concerns the Sindar, the elves that never left for Aman and their King and Queen; Elwe (Thingol) and Melian, the maia. This chapter goes back into the past a bit. Dwarves appear out of the east. The first mention of Khazad-dum, aka Dwarrowdelf, Hadhodrond and later Moria, the greatest of all dwarven homes.
Also the orcs first appear. Earlier Tolkien described how Melkor captured some of the first elves to appear and reformed/tortured them into the orcs. He also here mentions werewolves. Ungoliant settles for a time on the borders of Beleriand, somehow kept away by Melian. Orcs in great numbers attack and among the elven heroes is one named Denethor, one of the Nandor (those that fell to the wayside during the first journey). The Girdle of Melian is created, a boundary that keeps everyone out, except those with permission to pass.

Here we see that the world is obviously flat. Also, the sun rises in the West. The Valar hide Aman away even further from the rest of Middle-Earth and create the Enchanted Isles, so that 'hardly' no one could sail past them. Humans appear and we learn a little about the nature of humans and elves.

>64 Karlstar: I had forgotten that the bit about the orcs having been elves was from The Silmarillion. I remembered it was mentioned in Peter Jackson's The Two Towers.

Also, I had no memory of an Elf named Denethor!

I got too far ahead of you while listening, so I took a break. It's no hardship because listening to too much at once is depressing, despite how beautifully it's written.

>65 clamairy: I've been reading during my breakfast and lunch breaks. I agree that taking in small doses is a good plan.

If it has passed from the high and the beautiful to darkness and ruin, that was of old the fate of Arda Marred.

grim. but:

Among the tales of sorrow and of ruin that came down to us from the darkness of those days there are yet some in which amid weeping there is joy and under the shadow of death light that endures.

>65 clamairy: >66 MrsLee: I'll post a little more often than once a week for the rest. Coming up in some of the next few chapters is where we get to confusing lists of people and locations, so it will go a bit faster.

>69 Karlstar: Yeah, I think I'm on chapter 14, geography and several names for each location. Skimming. :P

>68 MrAndrew: Sounds like life.

>68 MrAndrew: Yes, absolutely. Beautifully said.

Also, I found this among my Kindle highlights from LotR:

"But Trolls are only counterfeits, made by the Enemy in the Great Darkness, in mockery of Ents, as Orcs were of Elves."

A counterfeit is not the same thing as a twisted original!

It occurs to me while reading some of the elven family stories, that having everlasting life is not always a comfort to the relatives. At least as humans, if we have an obstreperous or difficult or just downright awful older relative, at least there is hope that they will not always be a problem for us. I don't know how to spell obstrerperous, but I know what it looks like in a relative. ;)

>72 MrsLee: LOL Are you speaking from experience? I was listening while driving yesterday and really got sucked into the saga of a certain Dark Elf and his family. I believe they found a way around this particular issue you mention. (Chapter 16, I believe.)

>73 clamairy: Hahaha, yes, if you mean throwing him off the cliff! That can solve a lot of family problems.

>74 MrsLee: Heh heh! Yes, that is exactly what I meant. *cackle*

Quenta Silmarillion, Chapters 13 - 16

The story circles around again back to Feanor and the Noldor as they return to Middle-Earth. The forces of Morgoth, hearing (!) them arrive, leave Angband and assault them, which is the Second Battle in the Wars of Beleriand. Here I think we can clearly see some of the influence of Tolkien's experiences in World War One.
Balrogs (the corrupted Maiar) appear again, including Gothmog, Lord of the Balrogs. The sons of Feanor and their cousins each command a group of Noldor and settle, each to his own area, in the North.
After 20 years pass, Finrod sets off and eventually builds the secret stronghold of Nargothrond and Turgon, guided by Ulmo, starts Gondolin. The Third Battle happens. 200 years pass. There's also the first appearance of a dragon.

Chapter 14 is literally a long description of which group of elves lived where. Chapter 15 is almost an extension of that chapter, though there is more of the story of the relations between the Sindar and Noldor.
There's also a map of Beleriand, which is very useful. Chapter 16 tells the story of Eol, the 'Dark Elf', Aredhel his wife and Maeglin, their son, who shows up again later in the story.

I am seeing many echoes of these stories in the visual arts of Peter Jackson's films. The last minute saving of people in Helm's Deep, seems to be very similar to the story of one of the tribes of men (sorry, I didn't make notes as I read and so don't have names at hand), and many other descriptions of places or people.

>77 MrsLee: I hadn't thought of that one. The one that came to mind for me was the Balrog scene there's a lot of Silmarillion related stuff in that one (two, sort of) scene.

Finished chapter 21 and am getting very tired and worn down by the constant gloom of evil triumphs.

By the end of the chapter I felt that Turin well deserved his fate. He was hot tempered, quick to judge evil in others, arrogant and foolish, refusing to listen to wisdom. So here's the question. Did Melkor bring the Doom on him, or did he simply read his character and thus predict the doom?

>79 MrsLee: I've only made it to Chapter 18 so I won't click on your spoiler, but I have to concur. There is a very good reason I only read this once before.

Oh dear, it's so good to see all you people, especially Clam, and Mrs Lee I just signed in out of boredom (we are still locked down here in Italy and it's hailing and raining cats and dogs) after almost 10 years absence. I see you are reading The Simarillian and I remember it well. I think I have the book around here but I remember reading the first chapeters and crying over the creations, music and beings that ruled the world. I may join you in your travels through this masterpiece. I'll keep tuned.

>81 misskate: It's so good to see you again! I do hope all is well, aside from The Plague. Please join us, even if you can't find your physical copy.

bless you Clam, we are really feeling low these days and just getting your reply is delightful. I'll shop around for my copy and read a bit. I really loved the book altho at times I was overwhelmed with "so and so, also know as he and she"" which is typical of Tolkin. Isn't it amazing how we can still read and ponder over his writings and ponderings after so many years. A never ending source of amazement is he. I'll be in touch.

>81 misskate: Welcome back! Please do join us. I was planning on posting my next update today. Hopefully they haven't spoiled anything for you, or anyone else.

Silmarillion, Chapters 17 - 19

Going back a little bit in time again to 'When three hundred years and more were gone since the Noldor came'. Finrod travels east and encounters humans for the first time. Strangely there is a statement that the green elves of that area lit no fires (?) and did not sing at night. This is a little strange for Elves that for centuries lived under the stars. Somehow, while singing and playing a harp, Finrod is able to make himself understood by the humans, who don't speak a common language "... and his Elvish speech was interpreted in each mind according to its measure." Later it says that Finrod was able to read their minds. He also mentions Dark Elves and that there is darkness in the East.
Here we see evidence that Tolkien really wanted to call his elves, gnomes instead, as the humans call Finrod 'Nom' and elves Nomin, the Wise.
Three groups of humans travel out of the East and settle with the Elves and are called Edain.

Chapter 18 Another assault by Morgoth on the Noldor, who now have men as allies, but Morgoth now has a full grown Glaurung and Balrogs. During the war the first Grond shows up, the Hammer of the Underworld, wielded by Morgoth himself. Sauron comes forth and takes over a tower named Minas Tirith, also. More battles, more elves and humans are killed, but Beren survives and goes to Doriath.

Chapter 19 Of Beren and Luthien.
Perhaps the best story-within-a-story in the Silmarillion. Beren wears the ring of Barahir, the same one that Aragorn wears later, making it one of the oldest crafted objects in Middle-Earth. You can, apparently, also buy one online if you are interested. Luthien and Beren go on their great quest for a Silmaril and meet Huan, the great hound. There are werewolves and vampires and multiple quests and betrayals and Huan! Great stuff and a quite long chapter. I really enjoyed the multiple and fuller versions that were published in Beren and Luthien.

Of these histories most fair still in the ears of the Elves is the tale of Beren and Lúthien Tinúviel. And Huan.

>85 Karlstar: There are werewolves and vampires and multiple quests and betrayals and Huan! Also rapunzel, and a trip to the realm of death to recover a lost love (of course you have to soften the heart of the lord of death with your song of grief).

I'm fairly sure the fight between werewolf-sauron and Huan was lifted from Homer's Odyssey, where Menelaus catches Proteus. Strange that i noticed that since I don't think that I've actually read The Odyssey, at least not much of it; but it's amazing what you pick up from tv and movies over the years.

I love this story so much. That said, there is an awful lot of swooning.

>86 MrAndrew: There's a lot to be said for a strategically placed swoon in a story.

The tale of Beren and Lúthien is the heart of the book for me.

>85 Karlstar: I own a Ring of Barahir. It's solid sterling and weighs a ton. I wore it constantly until the fake emerald fell out. Then I paid a jeweler in CT to put in a semi-precious green gem. (I can't recall the name.) Unfortunately he didn't make sure the setting was air tight, and the silver behind the stone turned black, so now it no longer looks green. *sigh* So now I need to find another jeweler here in NY to fix it.

>87 clamairy: Nice! I had no idea it was possible to own such a thing until I googled it. If I remember right, the scene in the movies where Saruman identifies Aragorn by that ring was added, it isn't in the book?

>88 Karlstar: I believe you are correct. That description that Grima gives to Saruman of the ring itself sounds like it was lifted word for word from The Silmarillion.

Adding a photo of my ring. Still fits nicely, so I need to get the stone issue fixed.

>89 clamairy: Beautiful.

>86 MrAndrew: Rapunzel?

That bit I don't remember.

>91 -pilgrim-: At one point Luthien is imprisoned in a tower and makes a rope out of her hair to escape. .

>92 Karlstar: Thanks.

>85 Karlstar: & >87 clamairy: I purchased a Ring of Barahir for my son also. His girlfriend says he still has it, but doesn't wear it often due to hazards at work. I'm not sure about the stone in his. I also bought a Leaf of Lothlorien pin for my daughter, and a friend gave me a necklace such as Arwen wore in the movie. I can't recall its name. :)

I'm a bit further along in the tale, have read of the fall of the Numenoreans (more shadows and hints of earthly mythology) and will begin the story of the Rings today.

>94 MrsLee: Yeah, I have no doubt it would be a hazard if he works with his hands at all. It was a hazard in my kitchen. LOL How did you like the Arwen necklace? The movie version did not look anything like what I had imagined when reading the book.

>95 clamairy: Well, it's silver and crystal (looks similar to diamonds), two of my least favorite gem-metals, but it looks just like the movie version. :) It had belonged to a friend of mine who died some years ago, and her husband wanted me to have it, so the sentiment is there. I have it hanging with my LotR collection of books. I'm not a fan of polishing silver so it is somewhat less sparkly at the moment.

>96 MrsLee: Well I'm glad you have it where you can see it and appreciate the memories of your friend. (I'm also not a fan of diamonds. Give me stones with color! I do prefer silver or white gold to yellow, though.)

I have the One Ring. My wife bought it for me some years ago after my cheap-ass wedding ring broke. It's very impressive but a bit hefty for me to wear every day. I keep it secret, keep it safe.

>98 MrAndrew: I have one of those too, but in sterling silver. Mine is quite scratched up... unlike the original.

Tolkien was pretty good at writing in promotional items before it was cool. ;) I also purchased a sword letter opener for my daughter. I can't remember now which sword it was. The fact that Jackson's movies lasted over the course of three years and more, helped me plan Christmas stocking gifts for some of the more difficult teenage years of my children. My youngest son (too young at the time for much jewelry) loved the action figures. My daughter was wrapped in the tales and the making of the movies for most of her teen years. My middle son enjoyed the movies, and also when I read the books aloud to the family, but wasn't really into the world like the rest of us.

Back in the Silmarillion, I had forgotten that the elves originally made the rings. Also, when they were made. After Morgoth, but before the fall of Numenor. One wonders why Sauron didn't try to get a ring on one of the later Numenorean's fingers? Although his clever plan for them seemed to work pretty well.

>98 MrAndrew:
Don't drop it in the river...

>100 MrsLee: I think I have a One Ring that came with a fancy bookmark. I also bought my wife a nice Sting letter opener. Not as nice as the original, it only detects bills.

I finished yesterday, and am still in the mood for Middle Earth, so I'm going to start The Fall of Gondolin which has been published recently as a stand alone. Will possibly do this with the other recently published stand-alone novels of Tolkien which are on my shelf waiting to be read. This one, and Beren and Luthien have illustrations by Alan Lee.

>103 MrsLee: I really enjoyed The Fall of Gondolin. I suspect that was partly because I'd forgotten what I read about it in some of the Lost or Unfinished Tales books, but it was still good.

>91 -pilgrim-: I wanted to give you a more complete answer, so here it is.

While Beren was on his first attempt to gain the Silmaril, he was captured by Sauron, along with Finrod Felagund and his companions. The ring of Barahir is how Finrod recognized Beren and the debt owed to the house of Barahir. When Beren was captured by Sauron, Luthien learned about it from Melian, she wanted to go to the rescue, but Thingol "...caused a house to be built from which she should not escape." This house was high up in a beech named Hirilorn. Luthien caused her hair to grow to great length and "... of it she wove a dark robe that wrapped her beauty like a shadow... Of the strands that remained she twined a rope, and she let it down from her window, and as the end swayed above the guards that sat beneath the tree they fell into a deep slumber." That's quite the rope! I would have said before that the sleeping was a power of the robe, but that's not what it says.

>105 Karlstar: Thank you! I had forgotten that passage completely, but remember it now that you have quoted it for me. It has been a long time since I have read on the Silmarillion. Unfortunately it looks like I will not have any access to my copy any time soon.

I finally finished listening to the audible version. It might just be my state of mind but it seemed a lot darker and more depressing this time around. I am going to blame that, at least in part, on the narrator. He was definitely going for a 'weighty' sounding vibe, and I think it was overdone a tad. Perhaps more than a tad.

There were still some amazingly beautiful passages, and if the story of Beren and Luthien doesn't bring you much joy and sorrow then there is little hope for you. But I'm glad I'm done. And I doubt I'll be going back.

Like MrsLee I think I need to read some of Tolkien's more recently published books and see if they work better for me. I am pretty sure the last one I finished was The Children of Húrin which was about as grim as it gets. I started his version of Beowulf and every night I would read about 3 lines and fall asleep, so I bailed. Maybe the audio version of that would work. Hopefully it's NOT read by the same dude who narrated the one I just finished.

Anyone else still working on this?

>107 clamairy: I may be about to start soon. A reread for me.

But I never tried to read it straight through. I always throught of it as being like a bible - not on any religious sense, but in the sense that it is a collection of books, written in different styles, that collectively make up the history of a people.

So I read it a book or so at a time. After all, that was the way Tolkien wrote it, and I think the Bible analogy was in his mind as he was creating it.

I am finding The Fall of Gondolin quite different from the tone of The Silmarillion. I wish I had more experience to describe why. More a tale of a wandering hero than a history of a people? Anyway, going very slow, but that is good for now.

I'm glad to see folks are enjoying their re-reads or have branched out to other Tolkien works. I've moved on to Unfinished Tales to go over the 2nd Age material, we haven't quite gotten there yet in our summary.

Chapter 20 Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad

Beren and Luthien go off alone after their quest (and return to Middle-Earth) and Dior is born. Beren and Luthien go to the Halls of Mandos at some point. It sounds here like they go away unobserved, but they re-appear in chapter 22. There is a great battle, with 3 hosts of Men and Elves against orcs and wolves and wolfriders and Balrogs and dragons and Glaurung, father of dragons. The Easterlings betrayed the Eldar and Fingon is slain by 2 balrogs, including Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs.
Many of the Noldor and Edain perish and the north is lost.

Chapter 21
The Tale of Turin. A long chapter telling the story of Turin, son of Hurin. I wonder if Moorcock got some inspiration from the Dragon Helm and black sword of Turin.

Chapter 22 Of the Ruin of Doriath
Morgoth now has the upper hand, with so many of the Noldor and Edain dead, or more correctly, gone. The Silmaril continues to cause problems for anyone that possesses it, with the exception of Luthien. Thingol and Melian both leave Middle-Earth and Dior becomes King in Doriath.

The last few chapters so we can wrap this one up!

The chapters from 20 - 23 are more story and less of a history. Chapter 21 was expanded into a book of its
own, and so was chapter 23.

Chapter 23 of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin
Another elven kingdom falls, at this point Morgoth has almost complete control of the north and west, pockets of resistance are small. I really enjoyed the expanded version of this in the The Fall of Gondolin, but this is an important chapter as it relates to LoTR.

Chapter 24 Of the Voyage of Earendil and the War of Wrath
We learn a little bit about Elrond's parents, Earendil and Elwing. It is here that we read that Elrond chose to be among the Eldar, but his brother, Elros, chose to be human and founded the line of Numenorean kings.

Technically, the end of the Silmarillion

The Akallabeth - the Downfall of Numenor

One of the reasons I started this re-read was to brush up on the 2nd Age material, which really means Akallabeth. There is a lot of time and activity compressed into just a few pages in this section, which concerns almost entirely the Numenoreans.

After the war with Morgoth, the Eldar are invited to move to an island near Valinor, Eressea, and many do. As a reward for their faithfulness the Edain are invited to move to a new land, closer to Valinor than to Middle-Earth and "rich reward also was given. Eonwe came among them and taught them". This land was called Andor, the Land of Gift, which the Edain called Elenna, Anadune, also Westernesse/Numenore. These people become the Numenoreans, or Dunedain. The Eldar bring the first White Tree to Numenor.

After some time the Numenoreans build ships and sail back to the East, finding what is basically a post-apocalyptic society that has regressed and the Numenoreans teach them basic crafts and skills. Over time the Numenoreans turn from wise councilors into rulers, as they begin to rebel against the limits the Valar have placed on them.

Sauron arises in Middle-Earth. The Rings are made. The Numenoreans become too proud and the world is remade again "Thus in the after days, what by the voyages of ships, what by lore and star-craft, the kings of Men knew that the world was indeed made round...". Now when the Eldar sail away, they sail out of the world, not just to the far side of a flat world.

>112 Karlstar: Thank you for this group read. I'm glad I joined. I am going to read a few of the more recently published works, several of which I own but haven't touched.

I will leave this pinned for a little longer.

>113 clamairy: Thanks and thanks to everyone that joined! I will wrap up The Silmarillion and maybe add a little from what was different in Unfinished Tales.

>114 Karlstar: It was a great help in reading the newer books. Having it fresh in my brain so I understood the background and the future consequences.

As I only recently finished reading through the LOTR trilogy, I'm wading slowly through the Silmarillion, but I'm definitely learning a lot from this thread! I love how in depth Tolkien went with the history of Middle Earth and also how in depth everyone here has gone in reading and interpreting it.

>116 BookWormWillow: Welcome to the group! Some of us have gone a lot more in depth than others. I think in my own case I always felt if I examined it too closely it might reveal flaws I didn't want to see. So though I've read LotR at least two dozen times this was only my second trip through The Silmarillion. Enjoy your journey!

>116 BookWormWillow: I am still slowly listening to the Silmarillion as an audiobook - it's not my first read through. So you may have company on your journey.

>116 BookWormWillow: Thanks for joining in!

>17 Crypto-Willobie: Tolkien was born long after Milton, although I can see where one might think that Milton could have been influenced by Tolkien. Do you think perhaps that Tolkien could have been influenced by John Milton? Afterall, Milton is probably still influencing writers today. I love Paradise Lost, it has to be one of my favorite works.

>120 TinaHuerta: i was kidding...

>121 Crypto-Willobie: Maybe you just thought you were. Doesn't Borges say somewhere that writers create their own predecessors (or something like that)?