Suntup Editions Books

So, I will admit, I had a bit of a chuckle when I saw Suntup's newest limited limited edition :)



Not a "lettered edition" - we have those, but a "Roman Numeral Edition" - limited to 10, for $6500 each. I find this very very gimmicky. That said, if people are going to snatch it up, I don't blame Suntup for milking them! Heck, that's $65,000... for 10 books which are not even signed by the author! They are signed by the illustrator. I find the illustrations... a bit unexciting to be perfectly honest. BUT, I am open to have my mind changed. Why is this book worth $6500? Did anyone purchase it? Will it appreciate in value?



I won't deny that I feel Suntup is as usual underproducing their books, particularly the numbered edition. There is obviously demand for more, but if you keep the numbers down then don't you get more attention? Pretty clever marketing in my opinion - adding this "Roman Numeral Edition" so you can add 10 books that way, which is the same as adding some 75 numbered editions. Rather than producing 325 numbered edition, you only add 10 books and take in the same revenue while keeping commodities artificially low. Well, that's how it looks like to me anyway.

Now, every company has the right to do what they want, and heck Thornwillow also produces numerous "limited" editions when they publish a book. The upper end for those are also thousands of dollars. However, Thornwillow always meets demand and makes sure their books are affordable at varying levels. What are your thoughts? Am I just being crusty and cynical in my old age...?

ps I meant no offense to anyone. I thought it would be good to have a discussion, and again, if you think I'm being old and cynical feel free to let me know :)

Seriously? (This post, not Suntup)

>1 astropi: yeah, seriously.

>1 astropi:
I have purchased the artist edition (this one is “The Exorcist.”) It will be my third Suntup because I like some of their titles and art, but I am never impressed by limitations from any publisher. They are nothing but marketing gimmicks as far as I am concerned.

>4 jroger1: I read The Exorcist years ago. I remember thinking that the movie was truly artistic and unique, and the book not so much. However, that's really not fair because I saw the movie long before I read the book. All that said, I did enjoy Blatty's "Twinkle, Twinkle, "Killer" Kane" which I thought was significantly better than the Exorcist. I will add that Blatty later rewrote that short novel as "The Ninth Configuration" and unfortunately (in my opinion) made it far less interesting a read and if I recall correctly filled it with more swear words and violence. Anyway, back to Suntup, I will admit I think some of his books (Brother, The Road) were very well done and affordable. Now, of course he has a fanbase so editions are instantly sold-out and there apparently is no desire to increase the limitation. It's interesting that you say all limitations are "gimmicks" and to an extent I think you're right. Again, I've always admired Thornwillow for printing to demand, so no one gets stuck paying scalper prices nor is there artificial inflation.

Besides The Road and Neuromancer (that circuit board binding is really cool) I haven't been overly impressed with most of Suntup's output, but I suspect part of that stems from my more niche interests in the horror genre. Books like Silence of the Lambs, The Exorcist, and Horns just don't interest me. As far as their science fiction offerings, most of them have already received nice editions elsewhere, and so far I prefer the non-Suntup versions- especially the Folio Heinlein novels. I also don't really like the vast majority of their artwork.

The rights system also rubs me the wrong way. It's the gamification of book collecting, and I'm glad that the publishers I do buy books from haven't adopted it, except where it makes sense (ie. Centipede Press giving first rights to books in series).

Still, I'm excited to see what they cook up for Blood Meridian.

>4 jroger1:

Not always. Certain active fine presses like Barbarian Press and Foolscap Press and Mad Parrot simply cannot handle more than a small limitation.

Centipede Press could also fit in this category eve the publishing and ordering/shipping part is a one-family show.

I kind of wonder if Suntup can even handle their limitation numbers...with the pandemic on top of everything else, they seem pretty behind...

I don’t personally have any interest in the more expensive Suntup offerings, but I think it is worth noting that the higher end options are hand crafted objects that require specialist manual labor, and that there are differences between lettered and Roman numeral editions in terms of the binding and case details. (The printing and paper looks to be the same based on the web site.)

Vertical differentiation is certainly nothing new in the book trade or private presses. See for example the small number of copies historically printed on vellum by many private presses, or with extra fancy bindings. While arguably printing a small number of copies on vellum was based more on labor and material constraints than these limitation numbers, without more info it’s hard to say.

I find the social dynamics around Suntup fascinating. Many Suntup customers seem perfectly happy to spend a lot of money on a book without knowing very much about books. At the risk of seeming condescending—which I do not intend—I think this is because many Suntup customers are probably primarily fans of particular authors and genres (and now the publisher itself). The value seems to often be prestige objects associated with the fandom. (And FOMO, I suppose.)

I am glad to see that The Exorcist will be printed letterpress for the numbered (and more limited) editions, as, based on the last few releases, it seemed like he was moving toward printing all versions of his books using offset printing, and focusing more on finishing details than on the printing.

>8 abysswalker: that's an excellent point. I think that the small limitation really adds to the FOMO attitude which is why the books sell out so quickly. I've always wondered how many people are purchasing the books for investment purposes? The more expensive Suntup books are as you noted hand bound, but Thornwillow Press books are hand bound as well while only costing a fraction of the price. But, considering that Suntup can sell these books at what I consider "crazy" prices, I certainly can't fault them for charging such amounts. Suntup is a business after all. AND that said, I really think the whole "small" limitation thing is, as >4 jroger1: noted, an unnecessary gimmick and I honestly imagine they could make more money by substantially increasing the limitation.

Absolutely gimmicky! Though not as much as Amaranthine books with all the real blood and chess boards. The "Punctuation marks" edition limited to five copies to come.

Gimmicky or not, it's a smart business strategy, at least in the current environment in which they don't have much in the way of competition (I'm thinking in terms of nice-quality books published at a consistent rate). Their gross revenue from the Artist, Numbered and Lettered + Roman editions are all pretty similar, giving Suntup nice diversification across a wide range of price points. It's also interesting to me that the sale of 1,500 Numbered editions at $400 per would bring in quite a bit more than the sale of all of their editions currently do. I imagine they can't really go down that road now that they've established their limitation in the 250-350 range. But an opportunity exists for a potential copycat to beat Suntup on price.

>9 astropi: Your comments about Thornwillow are 100% on point. Their paper wrapper and half-cloth books are actually sold below cost – that is, they lose money on them. The upper tier states attempt to offset the loss on the lower tiers. Why does Thornwillow do it this way? For the love of fine presswork, and in an effort to make the craft we all love available to as many people as possible.

I also find much of Suntup's work gimmicky, but honestly I find it hard to criticize any fine press. At the end of the day it's a wonderful craft no matter how you choose to pursue it.

>12 grifgon: "Their paper wrapper and half-cloth books are actually sold below cost"
Well, that's entirely believable. Fantastic prices for letterpress in those tiers.

"I find it hard to criticize any fine press"
As Suntup moves increasingly away from letterpress, are they really a fine press?

>13 kdweber: Now there's a hot take! I don't follow them closely, so I had assumed that their books were letterpress except for in the trade edition (which they call artist edition, I guess). The more you know! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

>12 grifgon: lower tier offerings losing money for Thornwillow makes sense to me (given the relatively fixed cost of printing across versions with different price points), but I am curious about your sources. Was this info from public statements or something else?

>14 grifgon: Suntup’s most recent announced publication (The Exorcist) is printed letterpress for the numbered editions and above, but the last few releases before that were printed offset for all tiers.

>16 abysswalker: There is probably a good chance the march book 'Blood Meridian' will also be letterpress on numbered/lettered (only two versions) ... I actually don't own a letterpress book so I don't know the physical quality difference, it's almost like the letters are indented into the page right? So it looks a bit cooler im thinking

>15 abysswalker: I was Thornwillow's managing editor for three years!

>16 abysswalker: That's a shame. If people are interesting in buying offset books at fine press prices, then it's a smart financial decision to switch. Letterpress is almost always the lion's share of an edition's cost. Even if you go with polymer plates, the plates themselves can cost quite a lot. Personally, I never collect books which aren't letterpress – it's definitely a prerequisite for me.

>17 Soup811: Letterpress does offer tactile pleasure because of the indenting, although when the letterpress is more "kiss" than "bite" it is often not noticeable. And higher-quality, more tactile paper often is used in conjunction with letterpress, which adds to the sensory pleasure. My apologies if what I just wrote borders on the erotic lol Must be lingering Valentine's Day sentiments. So letterpress can look cooler if there's a real bite, but it's more of a touch thing. And also, some book collectors appreciate the craftsmanship that goes into letterpress printing.

>19 AMindForeverVoyaging: +1 on "Some book collectors appreciate the craftsmanship that goes into letterpress printing."

As a collector, I really value *how* something was made, regardless of result. Take, for example, James Freemantle at the St. James Park Press. His upcoming edition of 1984 will be printed completely by hand on an Albion Press, which I think is so cool. To me, that's more valuable than if he had used, say, a Heidelberg, which is also letterpress (and can produce gorgeous work) but which spits printed sheets out at a rate of 30 per minute. As far as I know, nothing that James does requires electricity. How cool is that.

>20 grifgon: - I recall mention that the St. James Park Press 'Nineteen Eighty-Four' wasn't going to be printed wholly on an Albion - but that the illustrations would be - https://www.librarything.com/topic/321558#7195723

>21 jeremyjm: This is good to know! I've been seeing photos of pages being printed from the Albion, but maybe these are just proofs? One of the things I prize about my small collection of St James books is the work done on the Albion, so the departure on 1984 would be a bit of a bummer to me. But its such a large endeavour that it makes sense!

>11 AMindForeverVoyaging: I would love to have more letterpress books printed at "affordable" prices. I think Thornwillow does this the best way, by having special pre-order periods so they know how many to print and they fully meet demand. Also, if a company prints more copies, they can make more money, I think this whole "let's have super-limited ultra-expensive books" is, as I said from the get-go, a poor gimmick. The Limited Editions Club was very successful and around for 80+ years because they published gorgeous books at affordable prices. Not cheap, but affordable. They also never (as far as I know) had any "ultra-rare" editions of their books - they were all numbered and signed and that was it! Typical limitation was 1500. Now, I'm not saying that limitation number is doable today, but I'm certain Suntup could have doubled their numbered edition and it would have still sold out.

>13 kdweber: Interesting point. The Suntup "Silence of the Lambs" was $475 for a non-letterpress numbered edition. That, is a lot of money anyway you look at it! After shipping that will be $500. That's substantially more than a typical illustrator-signed Easton Press Deluxe Limited Edition (those are very nice by the way if anyone is unaware of them). BUT, it is signed by the author so I have to give kudos to Suntup for that.

>18 grifgon: very cool! Would love to hear some stories about your job and the press :)

>23 astropi: I just finished reading Carol Grossman's history of the Limited Editions Club, and in her telling it was always a struggle for George to turn a profit on the LEC, and at some point while he was still in control (so before 1956), the more profitable Heritage Club/Press ended up subsidizing the fine editions to keep them at prices that members could afford. The inflation of the 70s made the previous model even more of a losing proposition, and seemed to be part of the reason that Shiff needed to move the LEC into the fine art world with higher priced editions illustrated by abstract expressionists and so forth.

The crowd funding model of Thornwillow, along with vertical integration (since they use their own artisans rather than using the most established, prestigious, and reputable independent printers) seems like a possibility in this economy, but who knows?

Could you imagine how much it would cost for a publisher to get a press like Arion to produce a run of 1500 books now? That would be equivalent to what Macy did with printers such as Bruce Rogers back in the day.

I don't think them gimmicky, but is anyone a member of the unofficial Fans of Suntup group on Facebook. They are doing a great competition, giving away a number of Suntup books and ARCS. All you have to do is post your Suntup story, how you got into them, what Suntup means to you . Sounds great until I started reading through the responses. My god the amount of sob stories trying to solicit their entry. Does it make a a crass or cold hearted person that I cringe hard whenever people use sob stories to win social media competitions.

I'd say 60% of them are sob stories, if they are true then it's very sad, but I doubt some of them are genuine. Talking how Suntup saved or changed their lives due to battles with addiction, 30% of people had alcoholic parents who beat them. It's really like reading through the plot lines for Hallmark Movies. It's like people are taking it to the extreme to try and win and outdo each other and are written like opening to a SK novel ( it was when I was 13 I discovered monsters were real). Stories of their poverty and how times are hard financially, yet they still drop hundreds-thousands of dollars on books every month. I actually withdrew my entry to the competition and left the group as it just seems that most people on there aren't there for the books like they claim, they are there to make money. Talk about how much they love them but effectively scalp them for huge profits before they've even got them.

>25 Schlermie: it just seems that most people on there aren't there for the books like they claim, they are there to make money. Talk about how much they love them but effectively scalp them for huge profits before they've even got them.

That's a serious problem with many collectibles, and certainly books are very collectible. That of course is greatly exacerbated when a publisher purposely limits their production to far below demand.

>25 Schlermie: >26 astropi: >27 the_bb: Wow. This is blowing my mind. Had no idea! Thanks for the enlightenment.

Do you get the sense that Suntup helps introduce people to fine press collecting more broadly? Or do their collectors just stick to the Suntup editions?

>28 grifgon: I have only got into reading in the past 6 years or so... and up until 2 years ago I was under the impression that hardcover books were the highest quality ones (Were talking regular trade hardcovers). Somehow I saw a cool picture of a cover of a Malazan book, and I saw it was from Subterranean Press. This is what got me down the rabbit hole of finding out of the existence of these more expensive, illustrated books (Not saying 'fine press' or whatever just books that are of higher quality than trade ones)

For me the content of the book is the most important thing to me, and a lot of books I enjoy are produced by publishers that aren't 'fine press' ones. So while I appreciate the craftmanship going into the very high end publishers I've not yet got into them just due to the library. But I know some people the craftmanship is paramount over the writing itself, which is also fine.

The companies I've bough from are mostly SubPress/Folio (They have A LOT of my favorite books ever in fantasy/sci-fi) and I have 3 Suntup books. I can't make broad statements on quality because they vary a lot within the publisher themselves. I'll say that Folio Society has the weakest illustratioins for the most part. SubPress has better illustrations but less generally. I only have 1 'numbered' Suntup (Brother) and the binding is cool and the illustrations are also REALLY good for the book, but again this varies a lot book to book.

So just for me I don't plan on sticking just to Suntup, but until a legitimate Fine Press produces a novel I'd like to read/be interested in I probably won't get into them any further. (My fave authors are GRRM/Erikson/Abercrombie/Bancroft)

The one book I want to read right now and I don't think it has been given a special treatment by any publisher is Lonesome Dove. I've not read it but I've heard great things and am holding out hope someone will make a cool version of it.

>29 Soup811:
This might cost more than you’re willing to pay, and I don’t know if it’s illustrated, but here is a Lonesome Dove: https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?bi=0&bx=off&cm_sp=SearchF...

>30 jroger1: >29 Soup811:

Two quick notes re: that Easton Press listing. First, the price is high but I think it is for four volumes. Second, for someone relatively new to buying quality and fine press books, I would do some research about the kind of book Easton produces because they are somewhat polarizing.

>27 the_bb: I'm glad it's not just me. Again if people have experienced these things in their lives it's awful, but I hate when people play on it, I mean some of the stuff people have put is completely irrelevant and purely and attempt to get a sympathy win. There were a couple of posts that were along the lines of 'i don't want to mention my dark troubles demons - but I have these dark troubles and demons. They will talk about how they grew up in poverty, but not mention that they now have enough disposable income to drop $600 on book every month. You can almost guarantee that the winners will end up selling them anyway!

I not that the 18 prizes donated have been pretty much grouped together into 3 prizes. Would have made more sense to actually have 18 prizes and 18 winners, but hey can't complain I guess if people are donating the prizes out of their own pocket/collection.

>25 Schlermie: " it just seems that most people on there aren't there for the books like they claim, they are there to make money. Talk about how much they love them but effectively scalp them for huge profits before they've even got them."

I'm sorry, but I'd have to say that's a gross overstatement. First, you'll find that many of the most avid collectors buy and sell as a sideline to help fund their hobbies.

Also, (and to address this assertion that Suntup purposely severely limits production to drive secondary market prices) there's been a recent bonanza with the last two titles which have been massively popular (The Silence of the Lambs and The Exorcist). So, yes, those sold out extremely quickly and spiked in value just as quickly. However, some editions have taken literally months to sell out (at least at the lower tier), and even some of the numbered editions are selling at or below list price on the secondary market (usually, the more obscure titles).

And as to the decision to sell even before the title is released, sometimes at a profit, with Suntup's matching rights system, you're committed to buying each release if you want to keep your "rights" to buy future numbered or lettered releases, so sometimes, rights holders are just not that interested in a certain title and want to recover their money as quickly as possible since it's generally months between the "on-sale" dates and the actual book release.

>26 astropi: It's also part of what drives collectible markets, generally.

>28 grifgon: If anything, I've found that people often find their way to Suntup after first getting into more accessible publishers like Folio.

>31 abysswalker: I've looked at them a bit. Their Animal Farm looks amazing (illustration wise) but what turned me off to them a bit is it seems like they put ANYTHING in leather and sell it. They had a lakers championship season leatherbound and I feel that kind of thing hurts the brand a bit. i could be nitpicking though

>32 Schlermie: They should have just done an actually creative contest, be it something physical or written.

>34 Soup811: Nope, you've pretty much hit the nail on the head. I've bought EP books selectively for years, so I am a big fan of some of their stuff, including a number of their artist-signed, illustrated deluxe editions. However, it's worth remembering that Easton Press is owned by tchotchke-maker Danbury Mint (or they're both owned by the same parent company), so yes, it's not your imagination, they will take any bit of trivial nonsense they can, bind it in leather, apply a gilt edge, and sell it if they can make a few bucks. Doesn't mean they don't do some very nice stuff, also.

>36 whytewolf1: >34 Soup811:
I, too, am very pleased with my Easton artist-signed deluxe editions, and I believe astropi made a similar comment earlier in this thread.

But their author-signed collector’s editions, such as the Lonesome Dove set, are distinguished largely by their leather binding, a silk ribbon marker, moire endpapers, and usually better paper than the trade edition. They are usually not illustrated although there are exceptions. A typical price for a single signed edition is between $80 and $130. I don’t know what this set sold for originally, but if it were new today I would guess around $500.

Easton Press is controversial among collectors because they have to be selective. Some of their work is first class and some is not. They cater both to serious collectors and to hobbyists, not unlike Folio Society. They don’t do letterpress work as many collectors prefer, but that isn’t important to others like myself.

>37 jroger1: I actually agree with everything you've said, and was obviously less than clear if I gave any other impression.

.

>39 U_238: "at the same time it did seem as if there are a lot of people who aren’t really in a financial position to own these books, but still do."

I owned a collectibles business some years back for about 10 years, and I saw this all the time. Not everyone's following the personal finance guides' best practices. Some people blow all their money on clothes or cars or dining out or gambling or booze or sports tickets, and some people blow it on stuff they collect, all kinds of stuff, depending on who the people are.

To reply to the first post / topic: I find the whole system problematic, with the secrecy and guessing games about what's going to be published, the rights system, the too-low limitations that make it basically impossible for most people who are really interested in a book for itself (as opposed to its resale value) to get a copy - gimicky certainly fits some of this. It works for them, unfortunately, so why should they change all that, but I find it regrettable. There are some copies I would have certainly liked to buy, but from the publisher, not some re-seller at an inflated price. That's already completely impossible with the more limited editions, and has become increasingly difficult with the Artist Gift Editions. To me that's a real shame. I'm rather grateful that this isn't a common business-model and that neither Folio Society nor Subterranean Press (you only get first rights for series you started buying with volume 1) or Grim Oak Press work that way. Amaranthine Press seem to want to jump on that train, too, though, but then it fits. Their editions definitely are gimicky.

>41 SF-72: Some of the things you mention have mostly been resolved.

Secrecy: yes, the editions aren't know months in advance but they are always known a few days before the book is available. I'm not sure what additional value this knowledge would bring if it were public one month longer. OTOH it does make things more interesting IMO. Not sure why using marketing in this way is considered gimmicky.

Then I see many people complaining about limitation numbers. They are increasing the limitation from 250 to 350 for upcoming editions, but I think that's beside the point. The argument here seems to be that if they sell out their books, they are somehow keeping supply artificially low. Literally every other publisher does this. Head over to FSD forum where they have a counter for how fast their LEs sell out. While it's not hours like Suntup, some of the editions go super fast as well. Or let's look at Centipede -- out of 20 books published in 2020, 18 are sold out, and they normally sell out in O(days). Wanna take a guess on how long it will be before CP's Dune sells out? Sub press isn't that much different either. But for some reason no one accuses them of artificially keeping demand low. Should we be aiming for books that sell out 10-20% and 80% sits in the warehouse for years/decades (cough, Arion), is that the desired business model? Also, between roman, lettered, numbered, and AGE there's usually about 1300 books printed. LEC normally did 1500, was that also too low? Or does the extra 200 make that much of a difference? As Barry Moser said, anything over 500 isn't a limited edition.

Re subscription: this I agree with. I understand why it makes sense for them, but as a customer I don't like it. I've been on the Suntup train a few times now, and I always have to decide between buying a book I'm not interested in to hop on something that I like later, or risk missing out. Not great.

I also agree re illustration: this has always been a weak point for Suntup, but they have been getting a bit better lately (e.g., I like the illustrations in Seed).

But overall I don't understand why there always seems to be a lot of hate for Suntup in particular in this forum. My best guess is that it's the subscription system which locks out anyone who hasn't been there early on, and like I said that's a valid complaint. But calling them gimmicky or accusing them of keeping the supply low is a pretty cheap shot IMO.

>42 filox: I agree wholeheartedly with most everything you've said here. But the carping and complaining is to be expected. Anytime a new, successful entrant shakes up a relatively staid industry that entrant will certainly rub some people the wrong way by the very fact of their existence and their different way of doing things. Not to mention all the egregious, unknowledgeable newbs it draws into the hobby!

>42 filox: >43 whytewolf1:
I think the reason we seem to be picking on Suntup is that it is the subject of this thread, but if you reread #4, #5, and some later ones you’ll see that we are really talking about any publisher who limits copies to a level that makes it impossible for many interested collectors to obtain them.

I prefer the Garth Brooks philosophy. He keeps scheduling concerts on successive nights until everyone who wants a ticket can get one, and at a reasonable price. That’s how he defeats the scalpers and makes more money than he would if he scheduled just one concert at an inflated price. Of course, he has to work harder, but publishers wouldn’t mind that - or would they?

>42 filox: The illustrations are bad in the past? I only own three Suntup books so I don't know too much... what were their main problems? I see some of their editions used only B&W illustrations

FH451 - Simplistic illustrations (not good) reminds me of most Folio society books. EDIT: The dust jacket illustration I like a lot... but that artist I know from many things and I enjoy his style.
Let the Right One In - All but one are pretty good, but one is AWFUL
Brother - This will be hard to top for me, these are the best illustrations in anything I own

and for ones on pre-order thoughts...

Starship Trooper - Simplistic/Cartoony (Reminds me of Folio) this may fit the material though, never read the book
Seed - I agree the illustrations look creepy / cartoony
Silence of the Lambs - Again, cartoony, but quite detailed
The Exorcist - It didn't fit what I expected in my head (Probably because I've only seen movie).. however I do like them

>42 filox: But overall I don't understand why there always seems to be a lot of hate for Suntup in particular in this forum. My best guess is that it's the subscription system which locks out anyone who hasn't been there early on, and like I said that's a valid complaint. But calling them gimmicky or accusing them of keeping the supply low is a pretty cheap shot IMO.

Hate is not the right word, but certainly I don't respect Suntup for the reasons mentioned throughout the thread. They ARE gimmicky, in many people's opinions as you can tell, and they absolutely do keep the numbers artificially low. Again, I view keeping numbers artificially low GIMMICKY. Also, Subterranean Press is substantially different than Suntup. They have open pre-orders and although their numbered books do sometimes sell out quickly, it's usually a far cry from how quickly Suntup sells out because they typically print 500+ limited editions - they do try to meet demand. Same with Centipede Press, and really most any press I can think of.

As Barry Moser said, anything over 500 isn't a limited edition.

Can you share a link where he said this? Also, I have to certainly disagree. Unless Moser is referring to books that are thousands of dollars, such books you'll not find many customers so I can understand really limiting those. Arion Press books have been so expensive (and some of the art was so poorly received) that they often sit unsold for long periods of time. That may be changing with new (and much needed) change in leadership.

>43 whytewolf1: But the carping and complaining is to be expected. Anytime a new, successful entrant shakes up a relatively staid industry that entrant will certainly rub some people the wrong way by the very fact of their existence and their different way of doing things. Not to mention all the egregious, unknowledgeable newbs it draws into the hobby!

Clearly you and I are simply not going to agree, whereas I agree with everything as noted very succinctly by >41 SF-72:
Also, I suspect many people would take a bit of offense at calling fine press books a "staid industry" - I certainly don't think it is. And... "egregious unknowledgeable newbs" - well everyone is a "newb" at some point and it's good to get more people involved with collectible books!
There are many publishers I prefer over Suntup, but that's not to say there are no Suntup books I would like to get if they were available. Suntup can do whatever they want! It's a free market. And likewise, people can talk all they want about Suntup, the good, the bad, and the ugly. That, is also part of a free market.

>45 Soup811: Okay, I will admit I'm curious as to which illustration you consider "AWFUL" :)

>42 filox: “My best guess is that it's the subscription system which locks out anyone who hasn't been there early on ... accusing them of keeping the supply low is a pretty cheap shot IMO.“

But that is exactly what they are doing. Somehow I mysteriously got on Suntup’s email list, and I’ve been able to obtain the artist edition of the books that interest me because I check my email frequently. But people who have jobs usually aren’t able to do that (I’m retired), so they don’t have a chance. It isn’t illegal but it is unfair.

>46 astropi: Maybe not awful on second look but I do think the 5th one isn't as good as the rest of them. Also would've liked it to have green as a color to match the previous illustration of him lol.

>45 Soup811: to add another data point, I think the illustrations for I Am Legend are excellent. I own the numbered edition of this, which is also possibly my favorite of all the bindings Suntup has done. I have read that the reproductions are not quite as good (ironically) in the artist gift edition, unfortunately.

>46 astropi: "Also, I suspect many people would take a bit of offense at calling fine press books a "staid industry" - I certainly don't think it is. And... "egregious unknowledgeable newbs" - well everyone is a "newb" at some point and it's good to get more people involved with collectible books!"

The newbs comment was sarcasm, as there was more than a little disdain expressed for collectors who might actually value the artwork, binding, case materials, and presentation more than whether or not an edition was printed letterpress.

As far as Subterranean having open orders for their limited editions, have you ever compared a Suntup S/N to a Subpress S/N? I like Subpress fine, but their lettered editions are maybe comparable to Suntup's numbered editions, with their numbered editions really not even equivalent in quality in most cases to Suntup's Artist Editions, orders for which are always open and are generally limited to 1000 copies, far more than the typical Subpress offering. So, despite the similar nomenclature, they are not equivalent in quality.

Also, "staid" was a very purposeful juxtaposition to "gimmicky." The use of "gimmicky" to me reeks of disdain for what one, it seems to me, sees as "unimaginative and tawdry commercialism." On the other hand, one might say that Suntup's relative success in this niche area is, in actuality, due more to its being creative, inventive, offbeat, uncommon, and surprising.

You're welcome to have the last word here, as this is your thread, and it's one that I should have perhaps scrolled right past. But it always strikes me as just a bit unseemly when people, like us, engaged in a privileged hobby and pastime complain in an entitled way about how others choose to conduct their business in ways that we find inconvenient to us. No one is entitled to any of these books. Someone is disappointed that they didn't get a chance to purchase direct? Fine. What about the secondary market? They also don't care to purchase at those prices. Also fine. But a whole thread complaining about it? And about how Suntup chooses to tier and price its limited editions. And opining about the motivations and logic behind certain of their business practices (especially when I very strongly suspect that this is not a field that those doing most of the opining have much experience in)?

So, that's my say and the reason for my sarcastic comment in the very first post in this thread. On a final note, this certainly doesn't mean that, in general terms, I think poorly of anyone here, so I look forward to conversing with you all, less contentiously, in other threads.

Good collecting,

whytewolf1

>50 whytewolf1: The quality varies a lot with SubPress I've found... I don't own any of their lettered. I own Red Rising series/Malazan series/First Law. The original first law series books and Red Rising series all use a paper that doesn't feel high quality at all, and 1-3 in Red Rising are not even illustrated. However, the first in the new trilogy 'A Little Hatred' as well as their Malazan books, all have higher quality paper and interior design (font/headers/colors/illustrations) that I'd say are slightly above the one numbered suntup I have.

>42 filox:

Maybe you've got another source than I do, but as someone who gets the newsletter and has bought only Artist Gift Editions, I don't find out what's going to be published days in advance. It's usually when the link for the Artist Gift Edition goes live, and by then there's been less than an hour to buy them with the last two editions.

Editions that are sold out in less than an hour, or with regard to the numbered and lettered editions never go into public sale except for lotteries, are kept at an artificially low limitation in my opinion. I'm sure that adding another 100 won't really help.

Some of the rest of your post doesn't refer to what I wrote, but to others, though, so I'd like to clarify: I really like some of their illustrations, which is the reason why I bought some books I already had nice editions of. I don't expect to like all of them from any publisher either, but they've certainly hit my sweet spot often enough to be very interesting to me. Red Dragon or I am Legend worked very well for me, and I'm looking forward to seeing the Heinleins and compare them to my FS editions.

Paradoxically, increasing the print run might result in less demand, as some portion of buyers probably buy knowing there is pent up demand in order to at least break even on the book, and in some cases profit tremendously.

>42 filox: wrote: ... Also, between roman, lettered, numbered, and AGE there's usually about 1300 books printed. LEC normally did 1500, was that also too low? ...

With regard to the LEC, I don't think this is the best comparison. The AGE-equivalent Macy offering is probably closer to the Heritage Club and Heritage Press, which, like the AGE, were illustrated and bound well, but produced to a level that was more generally affordable, and not explicitly limited (most of the time).

Additionally, I suspect George would have produced higher limitation LEC runs if he thought he could sustain club membership at a sufficient level. There were many cases where he produced fewer than 1500 because membership had dropped.

>54 abysswalker:
Also, the U.S. population was 150 million in 1950 compared to 330 million today.

>55 jroger1: good point.

Lots of replies since my last message, let me try to address the points, but if I missed something I apologise.

>44 jroger1: I prefer the Garth Brooks philosophy. He keeps scheduling concerts on successive nights until everyone who wants a ticket can get one, and at a reasonable price

I'm not sure if this was a serious comment or not, but just in case it was. There is a huge difference between music performer and a book publisher. Publishers can't keep printing one book at a time until all the demand is satisfied. I would hope that book collectors would appreciate this fact.

>46 astropi: Same with Centipede Press

I still don't see how is CP different from Suntup in terms of book supply. Again, let's not confuse the subscription system with book supply. The argument made was that Suntup in particular keeps book supply artificially low, while CP doesn't. Last CP book (Blish novel): 300 copies. CP's Haunting of the Hill house: 250 copies. Something Wicked: 300 copies. So when Suntup publishes 250 or 350 copies they are artificially lowering supply, but when CP does it it's ok. And btw, CP also sells out in matter of hours for the more popular titles.

>46 astropi: Can you share a link where he said this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B199-eX-BHc
I'm not going to sift through the whole video again to find this particular sentence, but I strongly suggest watching the whole thing. It's very interesting and a good use of one's time regardless on their opinion of Moser.

>47 jroger1: But people who have jobs usually aren’t able to do that (I’m retired), so they don’t have a chance

I don't understand this. Suntup's books go on sale on a Saturday morning (US time) exactly so more people would get a chance to buy. Maybe it's an American thing, but at least in Europe most people don't work on Saturdays.

>52 SF-72: I don't find out what's going to be published days in advance

The book is announced 2-3 days before numbered/lettered goes on sale. AGE goes on sale the same day as the announcement, though the teaser is a day before and people usually guess right away what the book is going to be (you can see the guesses on Instagram or FB). So to recap: for numbered/lettered you know at least two days in advance, for AGE you can know with very high probability one day in advance. Not ideal I agree, but not nearly as big a problem as it's made out to be.

>55 jroger1: Also, the U.S. population was 150 million in 1950 compared to 330 million today.

What a meaningless number indeed. Unless we know how many folks were actually interested in collecting books this number is useless. And judging by the fact that the total number of people buying physical books is actually going down despite world population rising, I would hazard a guess that the number of book collectors dropped since the 50s.

And just to recap re 'artificially low numbers': Suntup hit a sweet spot where they are publishing popular titles in fine editions. The demand for these is clearly high as evidenced by the fact that they sell out quickly. However, there is literally zero difference between Suntup and other publishers in this respect. When CP or Sub press publish a popular title it's snapped up in mere minutes. See for example Three body problem from Sub press or any popular CP title (again, anyone want to wager how long Dune is going to be available?). The difference in perception comes from the fact that they also publish a lot of niche stuff that doesn't appeal to a large audience, but that doesn't mean Suntup is keeping their numbers artificially low, it just means they don't bother publishing stuff they don't think is going to sell well. Either all publishers are keeping the numbers artificially low, or they publish as much as they are able/willing based on various considerations (the rights they can secure, the amount of manual work that has to be done etc).

>57 filox: So when Suntup publishes 250 or 350 copies they are artificially lowering supply, but when CP does it it's ok. And btw, CP also sells out in matter of hours for the more popular titles.

There are SO many differences between Suntup and other publishes.
First, most publishers tell their patrons months or years in advance what they're going to publish. They don't play games like Suntup. Second, most publishes including Easton Press, Folio Society, Centipede, Subterranean, etc. try to meet demand. Sure, their limited editions sell out, sometimes more quickly than anticipated, but they do try to meet demand and keep their patrons happy. I would also argue there is a HUGE difference between selling out in a few hours and basically instantaneously. Especially when publishing a popular title, most publishers will up the print run.

The difference in perception comes from the fact that they also publish a lot of niche stuff that doesn't appeal to a large audience, but that doesn't mean Suntup is keeping their numbers artificially low

That's exactly what it means! There is no "difference in perception" here. If you publish books that only appeal to a niche audience, which is what Centipede does, then by publishing 300 books you are meeting demand (Jerad has done this for years, he knows what is likely to sell and in how long and that his patrons will be able to get a copy). If you have 1000 people that want to purchase your book, and you still refuse to publish more than 250-350, then you are not meeting demand and keeping numbers artificially low.

Either all publishers are keeping the numbers artificially low, or they publish as much as they are able/willing based on various considerations (the rights they can secure, the amount of manual work that has to be done etc).

It's a fair point to note that publishers have to get special permission and a small publisher may only be able to handle X amount of books. However, no one has any doubts that Suntup could publish 500 copies of their books instead of 350. For popular titles Suntup could go up to 750 and still sell out super quickly. That is exactly what Subterranean, and most any publisher, does with their popular titles. Suntup has noted that there is a demand for their books and yet they purposely keep the limitation low. This is not a point of argument, Suntup has said so themselves

...it can prove difficult for some of you to obtain one of our editions, which can lead to disappointment and frustration. That’s the last thing I want any of our customers to experience; however, that is the nature of limited editions. The demand is usually greater than the supply. The obvious solution would be to increase our print runs while maintaining their limited nature. This is something we have thought about carefully and discussed at length. Therefore, in order to better satisfy our growing customer base, but still maintain what I consider to be a very limited run, we will be increasing our Numbered edition print run to 350 copies for select titles over the next year and a half.

Suntup clearly wants their books to be scare and sought after. I think this is unfortunate and not a good model. I have basically given up on Suntup entirely because of this model. I am not going to chase down a Suntup book on the overly pricey secondary market, instead I will support other presses that, in my mind, seem to care more about pleasing their patrons then just having highly sought-after books because of low print runs. My opinion of course.

>58 astropi: Fully agreed.

Suntup deserves credit and praise for following his dream. He is the boss and decides whatever model he wants to operate. I mean that in all sincerity. It is his dream.

The locked number system though is excluding in a not even funny way, and in all honesty made me stop to sought after Suntup books. It is excluding and would cause the buyer (me) to feel pushed to buy something I don`t necessarily want, because I MIGHT like what comes after. That is a recipe for disaster for the wallet of the common man, and a recipe on how to create addictiveness which can be dangerous - no joke, FOMO it is called (fear of missing out) - which is kind of ridiculous, as it is only luxury books, it`s not life dependent, although plenty would disagree, might even snipe me if they had the chance.

And when out of this "numbered - train" as it is famously called, it is not possible to come on again. Lottery you say, pfew, not interested.

I had FOMO, I was addicted for a time, I threw money at the books, but now I feel neither. I want to collect under more normal circumstances which I can control myself. Reading experience hardly differs that much anyway.

I feel Suntup Editions sprung out first and foremost as to be enjoyed by a close circle of friends - when Paul talks to the crowd. I sense he first and foremost speaks to his friends, fellow King collectors and loyal followers not .. the others .. understandable, but still

I would like to add .. I feel sad for flippers (buy to sell to earn a few bucks is understandable when your young, but kind of sad when one is older. There is a marked, but my god it`s transparent) - if I were Suntup I would do something about that issue as it somewhat stains the brand, which for my taste do make it .. gimmicky

`I give you a locked number to buy my books for all eternity, so that you can sell them further for huge profit to ignorant and or desperate or filthy rich collectors, with time that creates a say, toxic atmosphere`

Proud owner of 6 numbered editions, 4 gift editions and a free man. It was fun for a while to participate in an American dream until I no longer felt special, now I will likely turn my focus back to the complaining British fans (librarything) at the Folio Society for a while.

Blood Meridian or not in March, when I am not invited to the party I can`t feel any excitement for what`s going on there either

>58 astropi: First, most publishers tell their patrons months or years in advance what they're going to publish. They don't play games like Suntup

Nothing to do with the issue of limitation, but ok

>58 astropi: Second, most publishes including Easton Press, Folio Society, Centipede, Subterranean, etc. try to meet demand

What is the evidence for this? How exactly do they try to meet demand?

>58 astropi: Especially when publishing a popular title, most publishers will up the print run

I mean, I literally gave you and example with CP where this is not the case. Their popular titles have pretty much the same limitation as Suntup and have all sold out very quickly.

>58 astropi: there is a HUGE difference between selling out in a few hours and basically instantaneously

Is there? What is the acceptable time for a book to sell out so we can dump on the publisher for being gimmicky?

>60 Pellias: It is excluding and would cause the buyer (me) to feel pushed to buy something I don`t necessarily want, because I MIGHT like what comes after

Oh hey, you just described Arion's business model.

This whole thread is starting to take up more of my time than I had imagined, and it's not like anyone here will change their opinion based on facts anyway, so just a few final thoughts. Suntup publishes fine editions (fine as in nice editions, not fine as in Barbarian Press level fine) of books that people want to read. He found a way to make sure his books sell well and he makes a living out of this, which in turn means he gets to continue to publish fine books. Suntup isn't perfect (especially their subscription system which I personally don't like either), but given that other publishers have used it as well (Arion), it really seems that the main criterion for gimmicky is actually being commercially successful. No one would call Arion gimmicky probably because they can't sell their books for years on end. I guess you do have to be starving to be an artist.

>61 filox: My first point is that Suntup's whole business strategy is completely different and less beneficial to patrons. As >60 Pellias: notes very correctly, at least a certain percentage of people purchase Suntup due to FOMO "oh, maybe the next edition will be another signed Stephen King!" etc. If Suntup advertised all the books they were going to publish in a year, that would alleviate FOMO for many people.

The evidence that most publishers try to meet demand is that OTHER than Suntup they don't release books that sell out instantaneously and in fact, you can often find their limited editions for sale weeks, months, sometimes years later. Recently Centipede Press has become very popular so many CP books have sold out quickly, BUT certainly not all. And by quickly, we're talking within a day or a few days. I would like to think we can all agree that there's a huge difference between a book selling out within 24 hours and one where your only chance is through some sort of lottery.

What is the acceptable time for a book to sell out so we can dump on the publisher for being gimmicky?
AGAIN, it's NOT the timescale, but the fact that Suntup purposely refuses to meet demand. Perhaps Suntup's business model is making them good money, but it certainly has also alienated patrons such as myself and others.

Oh hey, you just described Arion's business model.
?? Arion's last 18 books (from 2014 onward) are available for purchase. There is no FOMO when it comes to Arion Press. They recently sold out of Animal Farm (published in 2013) which had been available to purchase for years.

it's not like anyone here will change their opinion based on facts anyway
You've given your opinion, and you are certainly entitled to it. As >60 Pellias: noted Suntup deserves credit and praise for following his dream. He is the boss and decides whatever model he wants to operate. Absolutely! However, the rest of us are entitled to criticize his decisions and discuss the frustration we feel.

>52 SF-72:

One last time, but I'm sure I won't convince you, just like you're aware you don't convince others here: I confirmed what I remembered with a friend, and no, the likes of us with just the newsletter, no specific connections, advance emails about the more expensive editions, or possibly aquaintances who do so, find out what's being published when the sale of the Artist Gift Editions go live. Which is why we missed one we would have bought because it was sold out by the time I checked my email 90 minutes after the sale started. That would have been a sequel to one we already had, so that wasn't pleasant. Last time we were both glued in front of the computer, so she managed to get an edition that sold out within about half an hour. It wasn't of interest to me, so no problem there.

As an aside: Heinlein is one of my favourite authors and I would have bought a numbered edition if possible, but it wasn't due to the current system, which left only a lottery once people who may not even like Heinlein - he's different from their usual fare - bought up everything to stay within the inner circle. They'll probably re-sell, but at prices I'm not willing to pay when it was literally made impossible to me to buy it at the publisher's price due to a very problematic system. That's not a pleasant way of trying to be a customer to a publisher. Higher limitations and general announcements for everyone would help.

>58 astropi:
>60 Pellias:

I agree.

>61 filox: Oh hey, you just described Arion's business model I also described how my dog reacts to sausages, and Suntup, and a lot more. I hold no interest in Arion, simply because I can`t have them all, and most of the books is not my can of soda. Therefore irrelevant.

`and it's not like anyone here will change their opinion based on facts anyway` Personally I don`t need facts. I know facts. Being a customer you get experience. I would need a way back in that would be what I would need, and a way to go out and in as I self please, without someone milking my wallet with what I don`t need. I don`t like to be manipulated to be someone's cashcow.

Therefore Suntup sooner than later will be irrelevant too. Let`s see

If I would write this either with Darktower suntup forum, cemetery dance forum, facebook fan group - I would not unlikely receive threats. I would be misunderstood, and attacked with a keyboard. The only place that would be "safe" to discuss Suntup books pro and cons, would be here on librarything.

I have personally always had excellent customer service with Suntup and company, and when or if, I would not expect less in the future.

Think about the facebook fan group for instance, I don`t know how many members there are, but say - 250 - 350 - 500 people share pictures, say their halleluja`s, while the others 1000 ++ sit there observing others joy and excitement knowing it is not possible to be a part of it. Isn`t that kind of ..sad to sit there and cry lonely tears, whilst others are ((annoyingly)) excited. All animals are equal, some more than others kind of thingy.

Therefore I wholeheartedly mean that Suntups books are for an inner circle .. mostly, with some exceptions. To ease the crowd

I have also read about people splurging money they don`t have because the psychology around the model creates addictiveness

.. , which allows others to take their place of course, which could be the way the system were intended to be fair.

-

>62 astropi: "oh, maybe the next edition will be another signed Stephen King!" - As you probably know. Stephen King books holds their own unique number (only buyers of Misery are invited to the King carousel) Misery holds a limitation of 175 or 185 if I remember correctly.

-

NB I am not bashing Suntup Editions with my post(s), if anything it is quite the opposite, and don`t intend to step on someone's toes, but Suntup too can not be excepted for individual opinions either. I understand Paul want to meet some demand, and have adjusted, and might do more. But still it is a catch - 22, for him, for customers, it is not easy for either. It is a hard world and then we all pass.

All those money saved - that is worth something too

.. and Paul can speak for himself, as do we customers

Enough rambling about nothing. I want a drink soon, and when soon comes my mind lies elsewhere, It is not like there are only one beauty left in the universe ..

>64 Pellias: the idea that it’s “not possible to be a part of it” seems inaccurate. Most of the numbered books and all of the artist gift editions regularly come up for sale at small to medium premiums over the original, and occasionally at a discount, with the exception of a few older scarce titles (which still come up, but have appreciated in value). I bought my numbered copy of I am Legend for less than the original selling price (the original price was $695 USD) last year, and that was during a period that staying at home has increased demand for products like this. After deciding I wanted to get a copy, I found one at a price I was willing to pay in under three months. I lost out on one eBay auction because it went above my reservation price before finding one that was priced acceptably to me.

If you want a copy of the recently sold out pre-release of The Exorcist numbered edition, the last time I skimmed the Facebook group I saw a couple offers for about 20% above the retail price, without rights. It’s expensive, but not absurd, and certainly not out of reach for someone who would have spent $850 USD at retail without qualm.

If you are a fan and moderately tuned in, to date I think it has always or almost always been possible to buy an artist gift edition at retail. I’m not that tuned in, and I could have bought an artist gift edition of The Exorcist, but decided against it because the art doesn’t quite work for me and the story itself is of only moderate personal interest.

Whether the books are overpriced for what you get to begin with is a separate question.

And the lettered editions are a different story, but is anyone here really complaining about being being unable to buy all the $5k+ super luxury editions Suntup releases?

I do agree with you that this business model may encourage irresponsible financial behavior, but if one’s goal is to decrease compulsive spending and personal finance myopia, it seems obvious that the effect of Suntup is a tiny rounding error compared to credit cards, payday loans, “pay to win” micro transaction video games, and a host of other malefactors that operate at a scale many orders of magnitude above a niche publisher.

I am a little sad that it will likely be very expensive to get a copy of Blood Meridian, if that is an upcoming Suntup release as is rumored, because there will be great demand, no other publishers have released nice editions, there will probably be no artist gift edition—which I suspect is a rights constraint, not a choice Paul can make, and I have high regard for this particular work.

>65 abysswalker: I was looking at some Suntup books, and in general, they are substantially above retail cost.
For example, Let the Right One In, Artist Gift Edition retailed for $130. On ebay it is $210 + $20 shipping, so $230 in total which is an increase of more than 75%


I saw an Artist Gift Edition of A Scanner Darkly recently sold for $300 which is an increase of 140% beyond retail.

Absolutely nothing wrong with books appreciating in value! Again, to me, it's the fact that patrons simply are not able to purchase the books at retail because Suntup is keeping the numbers artificially low, which all make it "gimmicky".

I can't agree more with >60 Pellias: & >64 Pellias:
Suntup is entitled to follow his dream. Ultimately I am sad that those of us that would love to support and be part of his dream are left out. Yes, time to move on, there are other books to pursue, other publishers to support, and good to luck to everyone (including Suntup)!

>66 astropi: The only thing that bugs me about a resale like this is that this particular seller had 7 copies of the book for sale. When there's a fairly limited supply of the book produced, and just one person can gobble up 7 of them, seemingly with the intent of reselling them at a markup, I think that ultimately reflects poorly on Suntup and risks alienating book buyers. Does Suntup now put a limit on how many copies a person can buy?

>67 AMindForeverVoyaging: Very good point. Please note that the seller actually had 10 of them! Three sold, and seven were left in stock...

>66 astropi: Let the Right One In was available for preorder during July, 2020. I ordered a copy of the artist gift edition from the web store on December 17th, 2020. (I think this was prompted by an email announcing low stock levels.) This is the only other Suntup book I currently own.

So this release took 5+ months to sell out of the artist gift edition.

It looks like there are only order limits on the numbered and higher tier editions. Source:

https://support.suntup.press/knowledge-base/order-limit/

>69 abysswalker: I'll chime in here to simply say that there is currently an order limit of 4 per person/household on Suntup AEs (though that can be easily circumvented by determined resellers using multiple accounts with different names, addresses, and credit cards).

And also to say that you are wasting your breath, good sir. Suntup's marketing and business practices clearly rub some of these folks the wrong way, despite those same practices being wildly successful with other collectors, and presenting evidence that disproves most of their assertions is not going to change their minds about the publisher.

>70 whytewolf1:
You have just stated your opinion which is NOT factual evidence. Yes, what I and others have said is also largely opinions, but opinions that we are entitled to.

I am a purchaser of Suntup numbered editions since Haunting of Hill House, and hence have been following them closely since.

Based on what I learned, the limitations are not artificial, they are more of a compromise of many factors. First, Paul wants to publish a book each month. But with all the Numbered and above editions featuring numerous handmade details, scaling up is not straightforward without increasing production times and hence requiring to relax the publishing schedule. Upping the Numbered to 350 was already logistically challenging, and production of each set of books already takes months, with occasional delays. Second, authors are many times unwilling to sign too high quantities - he has a big focus on signed limiteds, and offering substantially more would limit his abilities to get certain authors to sign.

Regarding printing method, the offset books are printed at very high quality. The books are looked at more as an art object with all details together, and the aim is not pleasing the printing fetishists. I love a good letterpress, but honestly speaking its added value (at the price level of Numbereds at least) is many times questionable compared to its price, if less luxurious paper is used, with photopolymer plates on top.

I don't really think Suntup is gimmicky, but follows a slightly different direction with his vision than most traditional fine presses, with the printing itself having less of a focus, while giving more substance to overall design (binding, materials used, etc). They are still top tier quality collectible books.

Also on availability of the Artist Edition - only those people can't get one who don't really want it. The sale is always pre-announced to newsletter subscribers and there is a whole release schedule available on the website, with the fastest sellout having been 1 hour so far. That's an eternity and utmost convenience compared to some other collectible markets.

Actually now that I think about it a little, I would prefer if there were no 'rights' unless they are books in a series. Secondary market prices or production numbers don't matter much to me but it would be better if you could just pick what book you want to try to get rather than forced to continue purchasing books to keep 'rights.'

>72 Raenas: What is your assessment of the printing quality of the numbered edition of Fahrenheit 451? Someone posted that some of the lines/paragraphs are crooked.

>74 ultrarightist:
I haven't seen any issues in mine.

>70 whytewolf1: just to clarify, I don't intend to be a cheerleader, and I think some of my earlier posts in this conversation lean toward the mildly critical, such as pushing back against the equating of George Macy's business model with the Suntup business model (>54 abysswalker:, >55 jroger1:). By my read, George's goal was far about democratizing fine press editions than Paul's primary focus, which seems to have grown out of a desire to create deluxe editions for the community of Stephen King collectors centering around the Dark Tower online forums (see the "Dragon Rebound" project, which started it all). Paul and George do/did confront some of the same challenges (negotiating with publishers who have an interest to minimize competition, managing complex inputs to the production process such as artisan labor and luxury materials, and so forth), though the economics have shifted substantially over time as well.

That said, I do prefer to have clear facts available so people can make up their own minds, and when I see comments with implications that seem to contradict the data, my inclination is to correct the record. The post (>66 astropi:) above about the resale of Let the Right One In seems to imply that fans were unable to buy the artist gift edition of this book due to limitation below demand, exacerbated by "unscrupulous" hoarders. This implication, at least for this title, seems factually incorrect (>69 abysswalker:), and this is not, unlike attitude toward democratization of supply, a matter of opinion.

Based on both my own impression, and what Paul has written in various places (such as here), I don't think his intention has ever primarily been to simply satisfy demand. For example, the FAQ entry about limitations says that serving the lower priced market was not something originally planned, since what he really wanted to do was create fancy editions of books he liked, though he did expand into the lower priced market as well when possible.

On further reflection, it also occurs to me that the rights system introduces another wrinkle to increasing the limitation numbers for the more deluxe editions, as it involves some estimation of future demand for all titles that Paul might choose to release in the same rights track. For example, if he increases the limitation of numbered editions to, say, 500 copies, he is in some ways making a promise to the purchaser of copy number 499 that there will be additional editions with the same number in the future. There are a number of ways I can think of to mitigate this complexity (such as maintaining rights only for lower numbers), but they all have various downsides.

>65 abysswalker: I am Legend is nice ! I have it. One of the best publications, but not amongst the most popular for some reason. The Exorcist looks too much for me, too cartoony. Personally I would prefer to use some oldish daguerreotype kind of photos. More mystique and scare. Not used to often in books, don`t know why. Very effective. That would be excellent for the Exorcist. Red Dragon too, not a big fan of the illustrations. If William Blake were alive he could illustrate it, supplemented with yet again daguerreotype crime scene photos. It would come smashing to find the tooth fairy that way, not as a cartoon figure. I am Legend illustrations are "simple" and effective. A case of less is more out of the KISS principle (keep it simple stupid)

>70 whytewolf1: The business model is excellent when your in. I bet those on the train are very vocal about it. Best idea ever. A case of the goat and the oatmeal sack, throw the oatmeal sack over here or anyplace else and it would be another song

>71 astropi: Opinions are important. It is simply boring to stay in a community with everyone saying hallelujah all the time. Like the emperors new clothes. Suntup fans are more loyal and dangerous than proud boys I tell you (this is intended as a joke, I bet someone will blow that up and out of context therefore I have to dement it before it settles) .. but they are (haha) .. Folio Society f.ex has many fans, but they get hammered again and again. It IS a compliment.

>72 Raenas: Look what I have, which you can not have. Nananananana .. :)

>73 Soup811: There it is. You didn`t even think before buying these editions. No time. It would be a messy fight about some books, but these "some books" could possibly come with higher quota. The site would crash probably. To late now, it would be mayhem if the numbers came random, can`t remove the oatmeal sack, but anyway.

It could and would be a blessing in disguise to not be on the train for some too. All that money, spent in other ways.

>74 ultrarightist: Fahrenheit 451 came with some printing faults of some kind (some of the batches did, not the majority). It was mentioned and somewhat discussed at darktower suntup fan page, if I knew where exactly I would put up a link to the discussion. Paul replied to it also.

>77 Pellias: you have such a great attitude about things (and crazy sense of humor :)
We need more people like you on this planet! I do agree, ultimately to each their own. I've said what I wanted to about Suntup, and I stick to my opinions. Too bad, because I really would have liked to have supported him, but no more. Also, for the record, I have three Suntup books left (I purchased them back in the day before everything was automatically sold out) - and I will likely trade those at some point!

>78 astropi: Thank you Sir ! Never intend to step on any toes, truly, but with opinions comes toe stepping intended or not. I am glad we have this place at librarything were we also find so much enablement. If the Suntup train has gone. It is always the possibility as you say to go back to the station and buy a ticket for another destination, and not to stress or use fume to fight. Sometimes it is good to flight also. Get some distance to said object and see if it is so important as one might think. It often isn`t. It`s just ego, and pride. Lust .. and a whole lot of money spent. I think about that sometimes, that why I work is to buy things that I don`t need.

Excited for the future of Suntup though. How will Suntup with time cope with all the demand from those on the barricades that are left out. I can believe he already get a lot of sticks from fans and "fans" of Suntup that found the press to late to join. Production value, limitations which way will it go .. have we already witnessed the golden age of Suntup Editions, or not.

Again, all praise to Suntup. That is important to know if this discussion should be taken out of context and brought to another fora. I want Paul to be proud of his accomplishments (which I know he is) !

PS ! Can you send me a lettered Silence of the Lambs now Paul ? :)

Wow. What a thread! I wish Don Floyd was still with us to provide some commentary on this topic.

Is Suntup gimmicky? I don't think so. As a business person, if you are selling out instantly, your prices probably aren't high enough for your target customer. Suntup has done an amazing job of catering to his customer's desires which seem to be more on the external packaging (binding, slipcase, et cetera) and less on the internal. If you follow the evolution from his rebind projects, this makes sense.

As with every publisher some books are better than others. There's a current market value post pinned to the top of the Facebook group. Only a few of the numbered books are significantly above published price, a few are below but not by much. Interestingly to me, the market seems to agree with my comments in another post that the Auctioneer is a lesser production.

I celebrate Suntup and what he is trying to accomplish. Unfortunately for me, the amount of money required to purchase the numbered additions is rapidly exceeding their value to me. I just received Seed. It's a nice publication but for $375, I don't feel the production lives up to the cost. (at least there could be French velour lining the slipcase)

This is still a new publisher. Hopefully, he gets feedback beyond what is written on thedarktower.org. All the adoration is great but never pointing out the flaws or weaknesses in the designs isn't going to help anyone. I do hope he continues to have success even if I'm not a long-term customer.

Tangentially, the most recent Suntup artist edition just went live (The Wolfen, by Whitley Strieber), for those interested.

I will be curious to see how fast this one sells out, as my lay perception is that The Wolfen lies somewhere between the levels of pop culture recognition enjoyed by some other recent releases (probably more than Let the Right One In but less than The Exorcist or Silence of the Lambs).

Edit to add a bit more info: the numbered and lettered editions will be printed offset rather than letterpress. Personally, I think the artist edition is the most attractive version of the three options. The suggestion of claw marks on the two expensive editions seems a bit on the nose to me (though the wood box included with the lettered edition is quite handsome). The claw mark motif reminds me of the cover of the classic tabletop roleplaying game book Werewolf: The Apocalypse. I like the illustration choices (probably one of the most attractive set of illustrations Paul has commissioned, and there are a lot of them—13 in full color).

After just under three hours of sales, 246 copies remain, according to the web site. So this release is 75% sold out in three hours.

With a few exceptions personally I prefer the AE's. I know that from a quality and quality of materials perspective they technically considerably inferior but I much prefer a colourful dust jacket to fairly plain cover and slipcase. Which for me is great as I couldn't justify paying either the original asking price for the numbered/lettered editions let alone the resale prices.

I think that does happen, people see the lettered and numbered editions that are so difficult to get, yearn for them after them. Someone who either bought one and regrets it sells one or someone who bought to flip sells it for a premium. Someone buys it and pays a premium, is excited to get it and be able to post to the collectors circle that they got one. Then after a while they look at this book on the shelf that they paid several hundred or a few thousand dollars for and maybe a little bit of remorse sets in, they see that because it sold for x amount when they bought it they can sell it for x amount with an extra couple of hundred bucks on top and do so.
People claiming to be doing fellow collectors a favour by letting them buy a copy of the book they bought 4 of for twice what they paid for it.
I was a long time member of the Facebook fans group and I sometimes feel like that for many of the members the showing others what you were able to/could afford to buy is more important than owning the books themselves. But I guess that can be said for lots of collecting communities for all sorts of products.

>82 Schlermie: You get sucked in. If we paid with physical money and not digital numbers there are many who would not splurge. I do it myself from time to time. I have no interest in every numbered edition, just some, and many of the rest as AE`s would be just fine. AE`s are of fine quality.

Often see this : I have to finance my future buy of a certain book, therefore I have to sell what I just bought to keep my number. General response is : Oh, that`s sad to hear, of course someone will buy the edition you don`t want, to help you keep your number .. as an observant the devil on my shoulder thinks : "move away, make room"

The one thing I find regrettable about the artist gift editions is that they aren't signed by the author, though I understand why that distinction is made. But yes, I often find these the most appealing with regard to design, and with the others not being accessible due to the current system anyway, the lack of signature is a pity. With most authors I don't care too much, but some it would be something I'd regret.

>81 abysswalker: I've just had a closer look at the numbered and the lettered and agree design wise I think they are really dull and I completely agree with the RPG vibe. The numbered almost looks like a notepad!

I wonder how many copies of The Exorcist AE have been purchased by people purely wanting to flip them, not knowing that nobody wants to pay the massively marked up price because so many people are sitting on multiple copy pre-orders they haven't been able to flip, because so many people are sitting on multiple pre-orders they were hoping to flip...I'm seeing more and more recent releases being sold. It's also like there has been some kind of internal Suntup collector economy which is about to take a dive..

During the Livestream just now, Paul said they will be further increasing print runs past 350 to try to satisfy demand.

>87 Soup811: I'm sure the current "collectors" are not fond of the news

>88 JuliusC: I have #348 currently, but you're probably right based on the facebook group poll. 40% say keep at 350 like 20% say make 400 and gets lower %. From my personal perspective I don't care in the slightest how rare they are because I don't want to resell them, just read them.

>88 JuliusC: It should drive up the value of the earlier, more limited editions.

>89 Soup811:

Same here. When I buy a book, I want to enjoy it, not re-sell it. So more people getting a chance to enjoy these books, too, is a positive development to me. The only ones 'hurt' by this are those who want to rip others off with an exaggerated re-sale price.

>91 SF-72: Amen

And I think the bubble is about to burst with aftermarket prices after Blood Meridian. I think you will find Wolfen selling at list or less in a few months. Loads of people are going to be selling their older numbered or AE to cover the cost of Blood Merdian. After this can there really be many titles that are going to be as big as some of his previous releases. How many people are going to hold on to lettered rights. For Paul's sake I hope so. He is a great man and deserves success for his efforts.

>89 Soup811: Of course. If I had a side business going with "free supply" (at least I believed it to be so, true or not) and suddenly I was told to share - some, and not being handed easy money for my side business any longer. It would bring out my inner demons. My inner selfish ass. Noo, noo. Only me, me. I beg of you, please let me keep my gold. Drooling. Eyes wide open, black pupils, tears. Smell of piss and anxiety. These books are seen as gold nuggets, and many people would kill for gold nuggets. Goldfeever. Gold brings out the character traits we don`t want to acknowledge. We get desperate when we are threatened. Hey, get away from my property, this gold here is mine. I will fire ! It is the wild west we are talking about here, after all, and it is Blood Meridian, after all. Hey man, don`t scalp me, this number is mine.

- I have been playing too much Red Dead, and read too many westerns of late. Sorry. But I love to joke (and to be serious). Still, it`s the same. I find this what is happening before my eyes somewhat amusing to be fair. The desperation. The Gollum like behavior. How will this unfold eventually.

Said before, say it again. It will be very interesting to see how Paul will manage this, this pressure from both sides, loyal to the few, and lock others out or open up some, and also what will happen after Blood Meridian ..

>88 JuliusC: Glad to see you back again Julius.

>91 SF-72:

I mean, it's not that black and white. Some of us work in well paying but unstable industries. Well paying enough to buy these books, but unstable enough where more than once I've had to sell part of my library after a layoff. It really does matter then to find your books have suddenly lost 50% of their value...so limitation is a legitimate selling point.

>93 Pellias: Thank you Øyvind but I think my wallet differs in opinion.

>94 MobyRichard: I wouldn't take comments like that too personally. There's an unaccountable amount of bitterness toward Suntup here among some people for some reason.

>96 whytewolf1: I wouldn't say it's exactly 'unaccountable' given the business model, which has resulted in the lock-out of hundreds of potential customers as well as handing a silver spoon to more than a few flippers, plus 'forcing' genuine collectors on this inside to purchase books they're not interested in. That said, I fully understand why he introduced the 'rights' system in the early stages of the business. It's less relevant now (as others have said, it only really makes sense for series) but he'll have a hard time removing it without alienating core customers. I have no interest in buying into this kind of model myself, but it's interesting to follow the story. I would assume there will be some drop-out from the numbered edition list imminently - given the price of Blood Meridian and the frequency of releases some will probably decide to throw in the towel. Let's see.

>89 Soup811: The poll actually now shows just over half the voters wanted to keep it at 350, with the rest either voting for 400 and 500. Many people who don't have rights actually voted to keep it at 350.

The limitation of 350 is excellent enough, what is not as fine (to put it that way) is that this business model kills lots of logic from there on. It is that part of the discussion that really is the interesting one. Nothing wrong with 350. But put the number in context with this `rights system`then it becomes a problem. That is the elephant in the room (almost) nobody with rights wants to discuss and just paint over it with flowers and faeries. It is too easy to manipulate this current system, as someone wrote in the group. `Enjoy it while it last`. I bet there are some with multiple accounts also, or other creative wanderings that in all fairness ultimately provide free books, and that doesn`t reflect well back at Paul (who is doing an excellent job).

: I`m neither bitter or anything before anyone makes that judgement. I just had to write fast while the pizza is still hot. This debate will come sooner than later anyway.

From my perspective, when it comes to raising the limitation number, it comes down to upsetting X number of current subscribers and pleasing Y number of new subscribers, with the Ys being a larger number (I would assume). And any Xs who are so unhappy they quit will be easily replaced with more Ys. For those Xs who are unhappy about their books losing value, I don't think this was ever intended to be an investment vehicle. And I don't think Paul should care a fig about that. Paul made a decision a few years ago and obviously underestimated the demand for his books. Why should he be held to that decision forever?

>100 AMindForeverVoyaging: Why should he be held to that decision forever?

Because he ultimately is the grown up in the house handing out the key to house private parties.

Seeing the category they have come up with thus far, it is very impressive and by all means should not have been underestimated in the first place. There are some really safe winners there. Even I knew the demand was there. They likely will wait this out and hope most of this issues will sort out by itself, or evolve into something, and maybe add 50 more numbers to win time, and repeat. If the category continues to impress, demand will rise even more, if not, no problem.

What really made this go boom and loud, was very likely the facebook fan page, and we know that will only grow, and spread, like ants.

>101 Pellias: I'm a member of that page and yea sometimes you roll your eyes at what goes on there. My personal peeve is the 'What a deal!' 'Oh my god I predict this will sell quick!!" "Great price!" for every person trying to sell something.

>102 Soup811: When you preach to the choir you are member of, they sing. Preach against or of another holy book, and well .. I would not do that, it is not the place for such, which is why it kind of always goes one way with tribal song. Eventually the barriers will be broken and some brave soul will speak out, with more and more members - that will affect the group mentality in some way. Because ! - If you play football you don`t want to sit on the bench and watch others play game after game after game, you want to participate and feel loved by the manager. You also want to play important matches now and again, not just pick waterbottles or polish shoes, especially when your no kid anymore.

If The Road sells for $2000 and more with broadside, the future sellers have a reference for a so called marketprice. That way Suntup books grow their own economy, which makes the distance between those on the train with numbers and those not, even bigger. People get tired of eating porridge with time, or cake for that matter. Like bitcoins had it`s heyday, it`s kind of similar to these books now. Prices for the most sought after volumes might drop drastically for some reason with time, or stand.

About OMG : It also is a way to feel accepted, which is pretty human. Feel included. Group mentality. Be a part of the illusion of the dreamscape we make important in life. Personally I have never been a fan of too much OMG`s (oh my goods) it drains me. I mean really really much. I want rain to, not just sun. .. and I prefer dogs. They are honest.

>100 AMindForeverVoyaging: "... it comes down to upsetting X number of current subscribers and pleasing Y number of new subscribers ..."

This is a plausible assumption, but it's possible the majority of existing rights holders don't care. If Paul was serious about expanding the limitation as much as possible without upsetting existing rights holders, he could just poll them. (I mean an actual poll of existing customers that allowed people to express their real opinions without worrying about social desirability concerns, not just some informal thing on Facebook.) Maybe he has already done this, who knows (though my guess is not, as I suspect some of the number holders would be talking about it on the Facebook group if so).

I wouldn't be too surprised if there are also some actual supply constraints regarding materials and labor for the numbered and lettered editions as well.

>94 MobyRichard:
>95 JuliusC:

What I wrote certainly isn't directed against a specific member here, or bitterness on my part either. I love books, beautiful books even more so. I've got some rare ones because I find them beautiful, not for their rarity, and if there were more copies of them that would be fine with me: More beauty in the world for others to enjoy. I really mean that and feel that way. My books were never an investment to me, realistically speaking most books don't increase in value, quite the opposite. If it's just about the money, there are better ways to go about collecting, I think. But I have a problem with a model that excludes people who are really interested in a specific book for itself, while others feel either pressured to buy something they don't really want, or are (mostly or completely) in it to sell what they never really wanted themselves for an exaggerated price. I don't have sympathy for that sort of buyer when they complain about a publisher trying to sell more books directly to people who actually want to enjoy those for themselves. Of course there are people who might need to sell their books when things change for them financially. But that's certainly not a main factor in this particular scenario.

>97 Levin40: This is exactly why they're gimmicky, in my opinion.

Collecting books is not too different from collecting stamps or coins or art or anything else. Most collections do not increase in value unless they consist of the greatest rarities and have a ready market, but then you are an investor and not a collector. Both are legitimate pursuits, but they are two very different things.

Books have the disadvantage of taking up more space than stamps or coins, but require a lot less space than antique cars!

>102 Soup811: and notice how many of these amazing deals with a great price that will sell quick aren't selling now.

My pet peeve is how one of the rules is that everybody must be polite and respectful. A good rule. Yet if anyone dares question anything or is negative about anything, many of the cult.. I mean group members become far from polite and respectful, mocking the poster.

I saw one gentleman have an issue with his LTROI AGE. He said that he had sent an email to suntup because of the noticeable defect and he was ripped apart by some members including admins. Questioning that the post was surely a joke, and how dare they consider making a complaint about the defect and saying that it was ONLY a AGE or reading copy so a defect shouldn't matter. Yet for some people the cost of an AGE is a lot of money and when they spend $200 on a book they expect it not to be crumpled or marked of defective. The guy had earlier been offering a broadside from The Road for free to members. Everyone was saying how kind he was. Unsurprisingly he deleted both posts.

The attitude towards poor quality control is also one of 'It's Paul, we just have to accept that this $700 book had really poor quality control and accept it, despite multiple ARCS being sent out (but not opened or read but sold).

To add I am not bitter towards Suntup or Paul. They have some wonderful products and he seems like a genuinely great guy doing something he loves. It's elements of the community, the economy of it that sometimes I find a little unsavory.

>108 Schlermie: Do you recall the AGE that had an indentation on the cover, like someone had impressed deeply when writing on a paper placed on the book, and someone literally claimed they were unable to see it? Hilarious.

>108 Schlermie: I don't see why any defects should be acceptable whether it's Suntup, Folio Society, Easton Press, etc. worse, people shouldn't be mocked because of complaints. I know people on here have referred, in a joking manner I assumed, to Suntup as a cult. Now, I'm beginning to believe it's a bit less humorous.

Anyway, for those aiming to get Blood Meridian, I wish you luck.

>108 Schlermie: That made me remember another insanely dumb thing. I pointed out a VERY slight binding issue where a signature of pages wasn't aligned with the others, which I personally don't have a problem with but it is, nonetheless, a defect. Somebody said they would consider it "a feature." Like what lol.

Also will say I had a printing error in LTROI and Suntup sent me a corrected replacement book immediately so their customer service is actually quite good.

>111 Soup811: Yes I don't doubt their service. I don't think they would have any issues with resolving complaints with books, it's the some of the community who get strangely defensive if you dare to be critical about any element of the work.

>110 astropi: If Paul offered to send a free ARC to 5 of the people who drank the kool-aid during a live stream I bet there would be some takers!

>109 U_238: Yes, and somebody had a numbered edition of something that actually had writing in the top corners of two pages apparently from the binders and it was deemed acceptable.

>97 Levin40: I appreciate your thoughts. I was not, of course, pointing the finger at any particular person. But I just hear a lot of complaining from people miffed that Suntup doesn't do things the way they would like, but since artificial scarcity is an essential part of producing and of collecting limited editions, I would be happy to have anyone offer a specific system that they feel is better, and I guarantee I can show ways and/or suggest common circumstances under which said system can be exploited and would wind up being "unfair" to a significant portion of potential customers.

I also respect your right to choose not to participate in a system that doesn't suit you. I do the same, all the time. But others seem to feel entitled and resentful that the system does not align with their preferences. In any case, I agree that Paul is engaged in a delicate balancing act, and we'll see if he can keep enough people happy for his business to remain successful or to become even more successful (I hope he can).

Amazingly, as I write this, all 26 lettered editions of Blood Meridian have sold out (for $3950 a pop), and only 12 of 350 numbered editions remain unclaimed at $975 each, with five hours left to go for any potential stragglers to still purchase their number.

>115 whytewolf1: I would be happy to have anyone offer a specific system that they feel is better, and I guarantee I can show ways and/or suggest common circumstances under which said system can be exploited and would wind up being "unfair" to a significant portion of potential customers.

Wow, we have been through this argument already a number of times. Just read the posts above. Most everyone on here seem to agree that just about any press, say Easton, Arion, Folio, Centipede... all have a much better system than Suntup. You're quite honestly the only person I know of that keeps defending the way Suntup sells their books. And, even though this has been mentioned a thousand times already, there is a huge difference between selling out and purposely keeping limitations low so that patrons do not get a chance to purchase the book. Also, no other press I know of seems to thrive so much on this FOMO which was noted by >8 abysswalker: and >60 Pellias:

>115 whytewolf1: But others seem to feel entitled and resentful that the system does not align with their preferences.
Resentful? No, I think people made it clear if anything they are disappointed, but that is a far cry from "resentful". Entitled? absolutely not, other than being entitled to share their thoughts and opinions on Suntup and any other press.

>115 whytewolf1: I would be happy to have anyone offer a specific system that they feel is better, and I guarantee I can show ways and/or suggest common circumstances under which said system can be exploited

As >116 astropi: points out, I think most of us here are aware of the other systems in place and I don't recall many specific complaints about them. To use one example, Centipede Press' system seems pretty decent. As with SubPress it's first-come-first-served, with rights held only in very specific cases where it makes sense from both a buyer and seller perspective (i.e. series) and purchases limited to one per buyer in most cases. At the same time, 'insiders' do have an advantage, though that advantage is fair and takes a little effort (one must sign up for the newsletter, read it, and occasionally sign up for early notification lists when prompted), while it doesn't exclude new customers from entering and participating. I'm aware that CP do offer some subscriptions, but I understand these account for a small fraction of copies available, and for the most part the system keeps people on their toes and, well, keeps things interesting. To use an obvious metaphor, most of these publishers are pursuing a democratic model, whereas Suntup's increasingly resembles an aristocracy.

Easton, Arion, and Folio are not fortunate enough to be in a position where their releases are so popular that they are subject to instant sell-outs when offering reasonably-sized limitations, so comparisons are not even remotely on par. Also, those publishers keep inventory on hand for YEARS in many cases, and Paul is smart enough not to put himself in a position where he's subject to that amount of necessary capital investment in order to have a successful business. Am I glad that those publishers (and others) do keep their inventory on-hand? Yes. Do I think Paul's model is preferable as a business owner? Definitely yes.

However, it is funny that you use Centipede as an example of a "better" system. So, let's look at that. Centipede announces titles in advance (mostly), but one generally has little idea exactly when they will drop. When products are made available for sale, they are announced and linked to in newsletters that come on Sunday mornings at erratic times (anywhere between 7 am and 11 am where I am), and some Sundays they don't come at all. A typical limitation for CP is 300 copies. Often these sell out in a blink. Sometimes Jerad offers the ability to be on an early notification list, sometimes not. Recent releases such as A Case of Conscience, Something Wicked This Way Comes, and Punktown have sold out instantly and instantly began selling on the secondary market for prices in the range of 175% of list to 300+% of list. This happened with a number of other releases, as well (and just wait till you see what happened with Dune). I would be fascinated to hear an explanation as to why this system is inherently fairer to collectors, as a whole, than Suntup's is. And for the record, I fault Jerad for his system no more than I fault Paul for his. I buy from both. They are both doing well, and have systems that seem to suit them.

"there is a huge difference between selling out and purposely keeping limitations low so that patrons do not get a chance to purchase the book."
As we can see with Centipede and you would discover if you read the posts in the CP Facebook group, people miss out all the time on CP books and are frustrated, and yet there is very little whining about it. If CP can sell out 300 copies in an hour and leave behind many disappointed customers, it is unclear how this is different than what happens with Suntup and why they are not then subject to the same criticism.

And please let us address this canard of "purposely keeping limitations low so that patrons do not get a chance to purchase the book," as if excluding people were a primary goal of the system in question. This is when it becomes incandescently clear that people who are asserting this claim have never spent time on the business side of the collectibles industry and have no idea how that side really operates.

Let's pose a question: Aside from fundamentally altering their business model from publishing books that they hope will sell out in a reasonably short period of time, say, in anywhere from a few hours to a few months, to an extremely capital intensive business model along the lines of what Folio or Easton operate where inventory is often kept on hand for years, how do you propose Suntup goes about determining the number of copies of a title they should produce to adequately meet demand, without winding up in a situation where they're sitting on inventory for years, as others do?

Setting a uniformly high limitation won't do that. They may still sell out of The Silence of the Lambs and Blood Meridian very quickly, but they will sit on copies of The Auctioneer and The Wolfen for years. And how many serious collectors will abandon them when their limitation sizes go through the roof? And will their releases still be able to support the prices they've been charging at retail when their limitations increase so precipitously?

Of course, we can vary the limitation size at a guess based on what we assume the popularity of the title will be. But a lot of collectors won't like that. And since we don't have a crystal ball to predict what the demand will be for a specific title 12-24 months in advance when contracts for rights are signed and reservations are made with printers and bookbinders and others. We might just have to be very conservative in our limitations so we won't get stuck with a glut of inventory that could take years to clear and could bankrupt us with all the money that slow-selling titles keep gobbling up. But then, unfortunately, we'll be accused of "purposely keeping limitations low so that patrons do not get a chance to purchase the book."

I could likewise address all of the complaints about Suntup's rights systems and show that they are not inherently more or less "fair" than other systems or no rights system at all. But I've already spent enough time on this and have no doubt irritated enough people who are simply personally peeved by Suntup's system more than others. (I seem to recall one suggestion that Suntup do away with the artist's editions entirely-- throwing all of those collectors under the bus-- and that they simply expand their numbered limitations, instead, to accommodate more serious collectors like the suggested.)

I guess my fundamental objection here to all of the criticism of Suntup and the ascribing of unproved motivations to Suntup about how they run their business is that having been an owner of various businesses, including in the collectibles space, many people seem to not remember that a business transaction consists of two parties, each of whom benefits from a fair trade of value. And it is up to each party to determine what they believe is fair to them and that this most certainly includes the folks who own the business one is transacting with. Each party has the right to set their own terms of play and to walk away when the terms the other party presents don't suit them, and they should respect the right of the other party to do so. Some here have admirably tried to assess and balance what is fair to both parties (e.g. Levin40) though we still may come to different conclusions about what that is. Others seem to fail to consider at all the advantages and the inherent fairness of what the current rights system provides to Suntup and their most loyal customers and how that allows their business to continue to prosper and to produce the editions that so many clearly love.

>118 whytewolf1: I agree and I do have a number on Suntup, however, I would MUCH prefer SubPress' way of only having 'rights' to books in a series.

>118 whytewolf1: Advantages, disadvantages, depends on which where you sit. It all comes down to that. Always. Caviar and champagne or porridge and water.

FS is an established publisher that goes back to 1947 that goes much broader. You would know. From FS LE`s about apples and facsimiles of middle age manuscripts that stay for years to Book of the new sun and Dune 750 in limitation that sell out in a couple of days, all to meet different clientele. Both the latter are naturally highly sought after now on the aftermarket. A Book of the new Sun LE sold for over $2000 - for a limitation of 750 that is significant. Easton are not available unless you live in the US, therefore not very relevant, unless the obvious. Suntup too are not very relevant as long as the books are not available, and I doubt Suntup would want to publish a book on apples. The poetry book was iffy enough for the fans. I liked him doing so though, lure them in and then put out a poetry book. Paul would make an excellent fisherman.

There are no place to canalize opinions on Suntup Editions other than here, as I know of. Criticism or not, call it what you want. At the end of the day it`s only opinions. A business model like that invites criticism eventually anyways that is well documented - it must be.

It is not to be expected of a beggar (not having a number) to share the same opinions in comparisons to a prince (with a number). The prince might share some empty words for comfort, and point some moral fingers about how we should rule the kingdom, behave and all that, but the beggar needs neither. No empty words, and no moral codes, and no more passive orgies. He would want to be treated as an equal containing orgies and caviar. Sometimes the prince throw some bread crumbs on the floor, and sometimes the beggar collects the crumbs, dips them in water and form them into a ball which he throws after the prince, telling he is not happy.

Moral is. Beggars can`t be choosers. Still, beggars have nothing to loose. You can lock them up, but in such a rule they will grow in plenty.

Only canalizing, nothing personal, it is the business model that makes it personal, nothing else.

You have a Suntup tattoo - don`t you? (sorry. I had too). I might get one someday, but I would need to be properly softened up and charmed first ..

>118 whytewolf1: Thanks for your response. I actually agree with a fair amount of what you say. Personally, I have no issue with limitation numbers and I don't think it's a big deal. There are countless factors impacting the the selection of limitation numbers, beyond perceived demand: agreements with rights holders, bindery and printer constraints, production times, the number a very few persons can reasonably handle and ship (e.g. in the case of the family-run CP) etc etc. And in the end it's in the very nature of collectables (sought-after ones, at least) that demand should outstrip supply. And, of course, the level of scarcity itself directly impacts demand, though the extent to which this happens is impossible to quantify and in any case is variable between products and over time.

I was amused to read your assessment of the CP model, as the very quirks that seem to annoy you I've always found to be part of the charm. I think it's something to do with feeling like one's interacting with a human being rather than a corporation, something pretty rare these days. And they keep things slightly unpredictable and interesting. Anyway, I still consider it fairer than Suntup's system: firstly that the 'downsides' you list impact everyone in the same way, and secondly in the key phrase from my original response: new customers are not excluded from entering and participating.. This is the issue I have with Suntup. I'm personally extremely selective in what I buy (from all publishers) and have no interest at all in flipping, so the system just doesn't work for me. I like some of what Suntup does, but not all. I would be very interested in a few titles a year, say 2 or 3, but such a thing isn't possible. It's all or nothing. Customers like me are completely excluded by the current system. And, to me at least, there's something slightly farcical about watching people routinely drop hundreds of dollars on luxury books they haven't read, may not even have heard of, and have no interest in. But that's what the system encourages, and it results in things becoming dull and stratified.

It seems to me that one of the key issues is that 'rights' are often perceived as having greater value than the books themselves. So there is perhaps a way Suntup could improve things while remaining true to the original model. Why not charge a 'rights premium', either a fixed value or a non-trivial percentage of the book cost, which would be added to the cost of the book if selected and maintain rights until the next book? This would in effect give a discount to those not interested in purchasing ALL the books, place an actual monetary value on something which clearly does have value, free up more spots for new customers and earn Paul a few more dollars along the way. (I don't expect anyone to take this particularly seriously btw, it was just something which came to mind)

>121 Levin40: Your notion of attaching a monetary value to the rights is actually a topic I was just thinking of. There is a parallel in the sports world where some teams charge a one-time season ticket rights fee that you have to pay if you want to "hold" your seat year after year. The rights holder can sell the license to a buyer (I believe at market value, so possibly for a profit), who then would have the right to buy that season ticket. It is controversial; there are many critics. But it is something that exists, so there is that precedent. I am not advocating for it, btw. Simply food for thought.

>121 Levin40: anecdotally, I’ve been following Centipede Press releases for a long time, and Suntup Press since its founding (though I don’t have a number and have only just recently finally purchased a book from Suntup directly), and I’ve only once missed out on a Centipede release I wanted to buy at release (Elric), and that was entirely my own fault, as I dithered for several days despite having several opportunities to order. I’m not a collector in the completionist sense, and I am rather selective in the Centipede titles I pursue, but Centipede does with some regularity put out something I want, and I’ve always been able to order those without undue stress (Nifft, the Lankhmar books, a handful of the limited weird fiction collections). I’m not on any special lists, just Jared’s main newsletter email.

In contrast, there are a few numbered Suntup releases I would have purchased on release had the option been available, one of which I bought on the secondary market for slightly under the original release price. Reasonable deals show up now and then if you are patient and ignore the Facebook group hype. The market will probably improve for buyers slightly once the covid confinement conditions relax and people have more concerns than staring at their hobby dashboard instrument display readout all day.

I do think the positive comparison of the Suntup business model to less hype oriented brands is misplaced. Do we really want only fine presses that operate on such short timescales? This is quarterly return thinking rather than value creation thinking. I think it’s great that Arion Press has slow steady sales as long as they have their fundamentals in place and it is sustainable. I have my personal criticisms of their catalog choice and prioritization, but not every press must cater to my preferences.

I don’t doubt that Paul is genuinely releasing the titles he wants rather than following the market research, but it just happens that his taste tracks some of the most popular best sellers in classic horror, many of which have enthusiastic (ahem) fan bases and many of which benefit from association with renowned film adaptations, which are themselves classics of pop culture. Talk about free marketing and builtin good will! Folio Society is edging toward a version of this model by capitalizing on fandom and timing with Netflix releases, though they seem to have a murkier vision (understandably, not having a strong personality with clear individual tastes at the helm). I am glad Paul is so successful in this space, but I hope the lesson others take is not that this is the only way to make it work, because that would greatly impoverish the broader quality press, fine press, and artist book marketplaces.

If Folio Society started to release 50-300 limited edition items etc. they would sell out in record time as well. It's because they don't that Suntup can take advantage of the FOMO model. It's a way to keep a weak business model afloat by offering exclusivity. You will know when a business can stand on its own, when it doesn't have to offer these things to stay alive. Folio Society has Limited Editions as a side business. The bulk of their growth comes from standard books. Suntup is using FOMO and exclusivity as a model. How long can he keep this up before a break in the system? Now he is wavering between increasing numbers and not to upset his existing base or to bring in new customers. The more he increases numbers, the less his FOMO model works. Viability comes into play. He didn't think his business model out long-term (ascertaining growth and shifts) and the breaks are starting to show. It takes a while for a business to start showing its true colors if it has not thought things out. I think one problem is he wants to be the Rolls-Royce high of the high end in the book collecting world but then he brings in Artists Editions and lower dustjacket editions, it's all a big jumbled mess.

He should throw out all "low graded" dustjacket books and just be a high-end book seller. He should have an exclusive clientele and use premium materials and keep his business for the wealthy book collector. He is actually throwing out crumbs to those who want to feel good about owning Suntup when he really wants to go for the "big bucks". Anyone can see through this facade.

‘You stood on the shoulders of geniuses to accomplish something as fast as you could, and before you even knew what you had, you patented it, and packaged it, and slapped it on a plastic lunchbox, and now you wanna sell it.’

~Ian Malcolm, Jurassic Park

This quote reminds me of Suntup

>124 Comatoes: You really have no idea what you're talking about, do you?

>125 filox: Do you work for Suntup? Obviously you're incredibly invested in Suntup for whatever reasons. If you have some "inside" knowledge we don't know about it, please share. Otherwise, >124 Comatoes: is entitled to their opinion just as much as you are to yours. I don't think it's in good form, nor does it help your case one bit, to say something such as You really have no idea what you're talking about, do you? especially since you offer nothing more than an opinion as well. Again, we are all entitled to share and discuss our opinions - and let's keep things cordial as we really have for the most part.

>126 astropi: No relation to Suntup whatsoever. I have a few of his books, I've been on the 'train' three times and hopped on and off when I saw fit. I'm not sure why you think I'm 'incredibly invested' in Suntup, I've shared my opinion in many posts, and if you read them carefully you can see that there are things I like about his books and things I don't like.

As for >124 Comatoes:, it's such a low effort troll that I believe it doesn't deserve more than the reply I gave. Like you said, we are all entitled to our own opinion (certainly there's a lot of entitlement in this thread) and my opinion is that OP has no idea what they are talking about. I am entitled to that opinion, am I not?

Yes filox, you're entitled to your opinion. No one would ever think of taking that away from you.

You said my post doesn't deserve a reply, but you had enough time to give a passing comment.

Obviously, I hit a nerve, so I will let it be since you fail to state why. I would not stoop to name-call anyone in here, but if it makes you better to call me a "low effort" troll whatever floats your boat.

My opinion still stands.

And thank you astropi for trying to keep this civil.

I believe LT TOS are that one may post your beliefs about books but to refrain from ad hominem attacks.

Latest schedule out and some people are starting to worry about 5 numbered or lettered books every quarter. The bubble will be straining soon, which is great news for those who want to pick up some more numbered without paying extortionate after market prices.

>130 Schlermie:. Yes, $3000-$4000 a quarter for the numbered edition may be difficult for many to sustain. I hope he goes to 6-10 a quarter and keeps the limitation at 350. It will be much easier to pick up copies of the books one wants without subscribing. I’ll probably drop my numbered subscription soon unless I find I can sell half the purchases on eBay or Facebook for my costs.

>131 kdweber: i agree. Sounds good to me.

I personally think their books are garish and I don't like the genres they publish but if Revenue - Expenses > WACC (weighted average cost of capital) I would argue this is not a gimmick but a successful enterprise. Good for them, there are too few profitable publishers these days.

I bought my first Suntup recently (I am Legend, numbered edition) and tbh I'm disappointed with the build quality. There's so much glue that the spine is stiff and wouldn't open, and despite trying to gently flex it open, coming back to it multiple times over the course of a day, I eventually had to break it in several places to open it. I actually read my books so at this price point that is stupid. In addition, the illustrations are glued down along the crease to text pages, which means when you're reading a page by them you can't open it all the way because they're glued like half a centimeter up! If you're not going to sew the pictures into the signature, at least tip them in on a blank page!

I'm really glad I bought the book... firstly because I liked the pictures more than the FS I am Legend... and secondly because now I know my money is better spent on Arion or FS LEs or Thornwillow or whatever than on a Suntup numbered. FOMO no more!

I'm also genuinely surprised by the number of collectors who say Suntup is the best quality of any nicer editions, if this sample was representative.

>134 katielouise: I suspect the collectors who say Suntup is the best don't have as much experience with the sorts of fine press publishers that are followed by members of this group.

>134 katielouise: I prefer their AE's. The thing is the price of AE's are getting kinda high for what you are getting too.

>134 katielouise: >136 Schlermie:
I prefer the artist editions too. The jacket art is a big inducement for me, more than any number or letter.

>135 SDB2012: Yeah, now that I actually have gotten one in my hands, that's my guess. It's people whose "fine press" experience is probably limited to Subterranean, or something. It's very nice, and like I said, I don't regret buying it - there are still a few more I want, but it makes the decision to not try to hop "on the train" easy. If it was really the most exquisite book I had come across, I might try to get rights, but as it is I am fine with just trying to pick ones up secondhand when I can find them for less than retail cost. Of course, like everyone else, I would really like The Road and Blood Meridian... but that's unlikely to happen for me unless I want to give up a lot of other purchases, lol.

>136 Schlermie:
>137 jroger1:

I have not been interested in their AEs mostly because I'm not terribly interested in most of the books they put out but can be persuaded if they're letterpress. Which of course the AEs are not. But some of their numbereds also aren't???? I have learned to closely look at the ebay listings after I first noticed that!

Here's how interested in horror I am: I've never read a single Stephen King book. lol.

>138 katielouise: you might find the following thread helpful, where I tried to catalog the printer, printing process, and paper for each Suntup edition:

https://www.librarything.com/topic/327027

(The fact that these data are not the first specs presented in their promotional materials says something about brand priorities.)

(I should probably update this with the last few releases.)

Tangentially, I have a copy of the numbered I Am Legend (the only “higher tier” Suntup release I own) and I don’t think it has the same binding glue issue. My copy opens fine without cracking. The illustrations are affixed as you note, but I’m not sure the glue extends quite as far? Perhaps your binder was extra aggressive with the adhesive!

I Am Legend details.

Head:



Tail:



Illustration binding:

>139 abysswalker: It's good that your I am Legend is apparently less glued than mine. Mine snaps immediately closed if I try to leave it open. Not slowly closed, not some pages flipping, but just SNAP! Closed. And that is after really, really trying to make it open, lol. It's a book that doesn't want to be read.

I looked at the other post and while I'd really been wanting The Road, now that I know it's offset printed, I feel absolutely no problem just getting the Folio Society one and saving myself several thousand dollars, lol.

>141 katielouise: At this point I buy mostly letterpress editions from small fine presses but I must say that the Suntup numbered edition of The Road is gorgeous with a beautiful 1/4 leather binding and cloth boards with a matching slipcase, great endpapers, frontispiece by one of my favorite engravers, Richard Wagener, great introduction by Joyce Carol Oates and interesting illustrations by Ryan Pancoast. By far the nicest edition of this work. While being letterpress would have made it near perfect, it was very reasonably priced at ~$400. Highly recommended and much nicer than the FS edition.

>142 kdweber: Yes, I'd happily pay $400-500 for it, but secondary market prices now are $2k+ and I can't justify that for a book that isn't letterpress.

>143 katielouise: Ouch! You're right, I wouldn't pay $2k for the book even if it was letterpress (maybe $1k then). Who knows, in a few years it might come down in price. I read the book in a trade hardback when it first came out and then again when I picked up the Suntup edition but I wouldn't have bought another copy of the book at all if the Suntup edition hadn't come up.

>134 katielouise: Hate it when a book is too tight and you have to fight to keep it open.
>140 abysswalker: This reminds me of how some EP books our bound, looks almost identical.

Suntup`s : I am Legend. I like it very much, but .. too tight. Doesn`t want to be read. Mine too, it snaps. If it helps to bend it back and forth on a daily exercise program to loosen up that`s the way I must go. This issue might solve the puzzle as to why IAL are not receiving so much love and sold for cheaper on the secondary market

Does anyone have one or more of Suntup's H.G. Wells books? If so, what is your assessment of it/them?

>147 ultrarightist: I have all three of Suntup's Wells books in the numbered edition. I really like them. They were printed letterpress on a hand-fed Vandercook cylinder press. Understated elegance plus quite a bit of supplementary information. A pleasure to read.

>147 ultrarightist: I don't know who this is, but they have a nice video on it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEau0Wp3jKk
I don't have the Suntup Wells, but again, I can't recommend the LEC enough - even though the price has gone up it's still a steal
https://www.librarything.com/topic/330503#7451284

>146 Pellias: I would say it could except I haven't seen anyone else talking about this. I got mine though for $100 under retail. I was aiming to find one for $200 under retail since I've seen some go for that but then I got impatient.

>150 katielouise: It`s not the time to bring it up yet. Fans are still psychotic (in a good way. I repeat, in a good way, I am too probably). As said, it`s too early. Right after you brought it up here, coincidence or not, a question was raised on the fan page, as to who was the binder of IAL. Threads like that leave more or less unanswered, and vanish without a trace. I like the volume, but the tight binding might be an issue someday - for $695 it should be expected perfection. Naturally I do hope it will loosen up, if so, no problem, if not .. I might have a irritating issue at hand. It doesn`t help to dress up if you don`t want to be kissed. I do not want to fight a book to be read. If I want to exercise I go to the gym.

>147 ultrarightist: I have all three books (numbered). They are quite nice, letterpress printed and the illustrations work well IMO but what I like the most is that they form a nice set.

If anyone has a copy of The Road they'd be willing to trade, let me know. I mostly only have Folio Society and Subterranean Press books/sets to trade, however.

I own and really like many of the Suntup editions, and while I don't think the books are gimmicky I'd say they've certainly become overpriced. The Island of Doctor Moreau was just announced and the artist edition is a 240 page book, probably a third of which is supplemental material, and is selling for $130. Let the Right One In sold for the same price not too long ago and was close to 600 pages, so this should have easily been a sub $100 book. But plenty have already sold at this price, so what do I know?

They are signed by often good artist though, which has to count for something. I no longer care about being on this numbered train so I`m not Gutted George or Bitter Brian any longer if I ever even where, and need those money spent elsewhere and or buy the singular numbered I want when prices cool down. The AE sells rather fast at these prices so in that sense they are worth it.

About the numbered train, much of the hype went out of me after Blood Meridian, now it is more back to normal, no more numbered train stress. I have a sense I am not alone on that. Blood Meridian and the Harris volumes out of the way, promise of AE on future publications, and after a time raise the number of passengers.

The Grails of Suntup (speaking secondhand prices and limitation bumber 150 - 250 and some 350) I personally feel are the ones before Blood Meridian, or even before that with Red Dragon and The Road, Haunting at Hill House and of course Misery. - Rosemary`s Baby will get more notifications, as it is a very nice publication, and a personal favorite.

This Dr. Moreau volume has very nice illustrations, and this book will sell on them alone with the artists signature. That was what tipped it for me to buy.

>155 Pellias: yeah, I should have been more clear that the books are becoming overpriced for me and not for the business - if Paul can sell 1000 books at his asking price then more power to him. But it's clear that prices have gone up relative to what you get for your money. I won't pretend to know anything about what it costs to make these books, but given the small page count and the fact that this book is in the public domain I would imagine that costs to produce this volume would be lower than the similarly priced LTROI. So it would seem that the final list price of Moreau is more likely related to the premium that Sunup can demand due to the recent hype rather than anything else.

Business-wise it probably makes a ton of sense - if people are used to paying ~$130 - $150 for an artist edition then charge them that consistently and enjoy a higher profit margin on the ones that cost less to produce. As a consumer I don't want to pay that much for a thin volume that I'd probably only read once anyway.

I think some of them have been selling so well lately because so many people have been buying multiple copies, or copies of books they wouldn't normally have purchased because they believe they would 100% be able to flip them for a profit, but it really isn't the case. I've seen many Exorciat listed for $250-$300 but they aren't selling. When it is released they will likely sell for list price and with titles like The Wolfen I think they will go for slightly less than retail. And if people were able to buy them when they were more like $69-$89 and sell them for double then who can blame Paul for putting the prices up to gain a further share of that value himself. Island of Doctor M, if it was $70 I'd buy, but for me it's not worth $130.

I have a copy of The Road, and will acquire Blood Meridian once it is out in the wild. I expect to pay close to the published price, as by then much of the fever will have worn off IMO

I think part of the reason the AEs are selling so quickly is because the fan base has expanded, with lots of persons who might have only known about the Folio Society for example being exposed to Suntup.

But I also think a large driver is exactly what someone else pointed out - everyone and their aunt is now buying multiple copies of the AEs, hoping it’s the next Misery or Red Dragon.

At least with the higher limitation the prices seem to be a bit lower, so the value is a bit better. Though nowhere near what it was in the early days.

Given that Suntup is essentially a one-person shop, does it make sense to expect it/him to take on the commitment of larger print runs? He doesn't have - for example - the option of passing a sold-out title on to a Chinese print shop for a large round 2 of approximations as Folio does.

I (as someone who loves to read and loves nice books but doesn't have much to spend on them and doesn't own anything from Suntup) find the intersection among potential buyers of those who are collectors foremost and those who are readers foremost (some of whom seem to be under the impression that Paul Suntup invented the idea of limitation) to be interesting.

>161 St._Troy: Suntup is definitely not a "one-person shop". He's the owner of Suntup Press, but he doesn't bind nor print the books himself. The closest I know of to a one-person shop is Pegana Press
https://peganapress.com/
which is really a two-person shop (husband and wife) and they print and bind everything by hand and by themselves!
(By the way, Pegana Press is really amazing - a hidden jewel in fine press books specializing in Lord Dunsany, Lovecraft, etc.)

Suntup in contrast certainly does not. While no one expects Suntup to outsource his books overseas, I personally see no reason why he could not increase his print run. I am sure he could if he wanted to, but he seems to want to keep production under demand. His choice of course.

>162 astropi: You’ve missed the broad (perhaps I’m wrong to think it obvious) meaning of “one person shop” - I refer not to who holds the leather but who (private individual vs. corporation) bears the financial risk.

The statement that he/it could always increase the print run is (again, perhaps I’m wrong to think it obvious) essentially meaningless, because, while true, it could be applied at any number at all (“why didn’t Folio Society print 2 million instead of one?”). It is also true that print run is synonymous with risk (something very much *not* arbitrary).

It is interesting that you see Suntup’s successful sales as a conscious choice to “keep production under demand” when (again, obvious?) demand for specialty products is notoriously difficult to forecast.

>163 St._Troy: Btw it's interesting that you mention Folio, since their last LE of PKD sold out quickly, and people were complaining that Folio is also artificially reducing the print run. So we can call just call Folio gimmicky and we're good.

>163 St._Troy: I see what you're saying. He's certainly not Folio Society nor Easton Press, so he does bear financial risk which is actually the more surprising as to why he does not increase his print run? I think it's obvious to anyone that when a publication sells out during pre-order and any stock that is left is put on lottery that demand clearly exceeds production. Note that Suntup books have been selling out now for quite a while. Also increasing print run does not mean going from 350 -> 850 it means gradually increasing it until demand is reasonably met - this ensures people are happy and you maximize your profits. From a financial standpoint it's a bit baffling as to why he doesn't increase print run...

>164 filox: True, but quickly here is a matter of a few days not a few minutes :)
Suntup has this rights system, so that if you are grandfathered in you can continue to purchase as many Suntup books as you want/afford while if you don't have any rights you are out of luck! So, the way to "fix" that would be to either get rid of the rights system, or increase demand. For the most part Suntup seems to be doing neither which is too bad. He has some nice books I would have loved to purchase, but because of the rights system I just never had that opportunity. I know many others are in the same boat. Now, Gimmicky is defined as "intended to attract attention, publicity, or trade." and I do think that is what this limited + rights system is doing. Again, Suntup is entitled to do whatever he wants with his company, and others are entitled to express their dissatisfaction. Considering just how long this thread has been going on, it seems clear that there are ideas that deserve discussion.

>166 Willie3: I also have an hard time understanding the criticisms regarding the limitations. Pretty much every « fine(ish) press » have such limitations for their different editions.

Suntup recently upped their Numbered limitation to 350 copies, and Paul even said recently that they are looking into the « issue » once again. Add to that the 26 Lettered copies and especially the 750-1000 Artist Edition copies (which is now for most titles, and not that much hard to obtain for the vast majority of releases), and you end up with quite a bit of copies overall. It’s not that constrained.

What I can understand though, and even agree with, are the criticisms about the matching rights system. I absolutely hate that system, as it feeds into the FOMO. I’m absolutely certain that the majority of those who « own » a number wouldn’t buy every single release. I know I wouldn’t, and I’ve been on the Numbered train for over a year now. There’s a lot of FOMO at play with this system. I’m simply not a fan of it. It could very well be a first come first serve system (except for King and series-related books), and those who truly want the books would have a good shot at getting them if they’re quick enough (350 numbered copies is relatively high, so it would give at least a couple of minutes/hours before selling out). I remember when Seed had a public release back in November for #251-350, and it was up for a couple of hours IIRC.

Making fun of the fans is also not a good look or warranted. I’m not on the Facebook page, but frequently visit The Dark Tower Suntup forum (I saw your post there btw). One thing I’ll say though, is that Suntup has quite a loyal fanbase, if I want to remain politically correct. Out of all the thousands of comments I saw on that forum, I think I have more fingers in one hand to count even the slightest of criticism made about a release. That’s what I’d call an echo chamber. I just hope Paul doesn’t solely listen to those people. Constructive criticism can often be beneficial. I still frequent it because Paul sometimes chime in and offer some inside informations.

/end of rant

I consider the AEs roughly equivalent to 80GBP FS editions quality-wise. So I'd say SP AE is ~30% more expensive than a very well made book. Major difference that AEs are limited and signed - and to be fair FS also uses the same tactics for some their LE editions as of late (signature? +100GBP, limited? 2x price just for being so)

So gimmicky? Not really. Artificially limited? Yes. Worth it? Up to you.

I won't delve into resale value because I consider this group to be in all intends and purposes a place for collectors - detached from the cliche "business is business" (thus all is fair) motto that seems to creep in every niche there is.

>166 Willie3: Yep.

I couldn't help but notice that all editions sold out. FOMO much?

Every Suntup book has appreciated in value.

Keeping the numbers down allows for artisanal production. You can buy plenty of mass produced crap elsewhere.

Yes, you are being rather crusty and cynical.

*

I own a matching set of numbered editions.

I've found Suntup Editions to be nothing but exceptional in every respect. I've also found Paul Suntup to be exemplary as a reader, bibliophile, publisher and friend.

Anyone looking to sell their Suntup book for hundreds of dollars less than retail need look no more.

I'll buy every one you have. /s

It’s quite incorrect to say every Suntup book has appreciated in value. Nobody wants to purchase Island, Seed, Brother, or Wolfen at list price. Every single one of those books would have languished on the In Print page for days, even weeks, if not for the rights system.

Others like The Lottery (beautiful book), Starship Troopers, The Exorcist and Bibliomysteries sell for close to list price. Even Blood Meridien sells for about $250 above list.

Apart from the two Hannibal books, it’s really only the older books that sell for stellar amounts, truth be told.

The AEs are also selling out because everyone is buying 3 copies to sell to everyone else buying 3 copies themselves. Every now and then a cross post to the FS group will introduce a new set of members for those who stocked up AEs to sell them to.

Genuinely laughed at the "artisinal production" bit. You know which group you're posting on, right? Suntup Books are nice, I like mine just fine, and have no problem with Paul's business model, but they're on the very low end of the fine/private press tradition.

>174 gmacaree: I don't always eat bread with my Suntup books, but when I do...

:)

Seriously though, you're absolutely right that Suntup books are on the "low end" of fine press. His strength is publishing works that traditionally have been ignored by fine press and are popular works. His weakness in my opinion is the business model.

>175 astropi: 😂

Sorry, new to Library thing and this thread. Just asking for advice after seeing all the comments.

I'm lucky enough right now that I don't need.to worry about expenses, have a somewhat stable job, and gets about $200 from overtime each Saturday so I've been trying to collect certain horror books. In this case, I bought Centipede's Something Wicked this Way Comes 6 weeks ago and just purchased a traycase CD edition of The Shining, which will be paid off through overtime in two weeks if nothing crazy happens.

Since my birthday is coming up in a few weeks, I've been planning to get a numbered copy of the Exorcist from Suntup, but I'm trying to be careful. You see, I was impatient a month ago when I bought Something Wicked a month ago at $250 + list price, and in only a few days, Centipede was selling a few unsigned copies for $500. The experience changed me, so now I am more concerned with getting a good deal than anything else.

So I would like to go get a numbered copy of the Exorcist before it goes out and was planning to just purchase from the Suntup FB group in a few weeks, but seeing you guy's reactions to it gives me time to consider. Some other books I want are:

Haunting of Hill House by Centipede with the slipcase
Frankenstein Deluxe Limited Edition by Easton
Rosemary's Baby Numbered Edition by Suntup
IT Gift Edition by CD
Dracula LE by Folio Society

Generally ordered by interest and relative market price to list price (Dracula and IT are way too expensive compared to its original price unless there's a deal).

In this case , I humbly ask the forum what would be the best course of action. Should I wait until the Suntup edition of the Exorcist is released to try my hand at the secondhand market? Try to get it right now? Try getting some of other books on the list before then?

Sorry for hijacking the thread, but I would like an honest answer since this group seems relatively impartial and eBay and Facebook group hype are not good metrics of relative cost. The Suntup FB group are oddly proud with how fast the editions sell out that they keep track and have a list of how long it is until they sell out (the Exorcist having a dubious honor of the AGE selling out in around 35 minutes, with no leftover numbered or lettered editions available for public sale or auction). I've seen numbered sell for$1200 on eBay and the FB group sell for $1050, so advice is requested before committing to a secondhand market purchase

>178 BlackwellDen: personally I would watch eBay sales for the Suntup titles you’re interested in. You may have to wait a few months, but the resale market is relatively active due to the rights system. You will need to see several sales to get a sense of the market. The eBay advanced search will show you sales from the past three months as well. I’m not familiar with the secondary market in Cemetery Dance books, but none of the Suntups you list are particularly hard to find, so they will come up. If you are patient, you will probably be able to find a Rosemary’s Baby numbered for below or near list price. The Facebook group is a good source as well if you don’t want to wait, just keep in mind that you will pay a fan premium. Additionally, though all Suntup releases are of at least reasonable quality, they do vary considerably in terms of printing, paper, etc. (even some of the numbered and lettered editions), if you care about such things.

I would also consider what qualities you are looking for in books. Are you collecting those specific publishers, or are you just interested in exemplary editions of those titles? The prices on books by some of the popular midmarket presses you list there are high exactly because there are many contemporary collectors that focus on the press.

For Dracula in particular, since the work is a classic and has been around for so long, there are many other possibilities, which may be more aesthetically pleasing and/or higher tier construction, compared to the Folio Society limited edition, which I believe is printed offset. I would suggest looking at the version published by the Limited Editions Club. It’s no longer cheap, exactly, but will run you considerably less than a Folio LE in the current market, and is much higher quality.

>178 BlackwellDen: regarding Frankenstein as well, there are numerous options. Thornwillow has a recent letterpress edition. The Limited Editions Club 1934 copy was handset by Bertha Goudy. If you want to go upmarket, Arion Press has an edition (though check out the illustrations first, because they are divisive). All of these are not that expensive by Easton DLE secondary market price standards. The 2004 Folio Society lightning bolt design is not bad.

I don’t mean to put you off the Easton DLE if that’s really what you want for whatever reason, but you can get a lot of book for the same price.

"Unfortunately, Suntup has become the benchmark for “fine press” publishing for many people who conflate fine press pricing with fine press quality."

>177 the_bb:
How do you define fine press? Is it letterpress books? Fine binding? I can see how offset Suntup books wouldn't be classified as such, but letterpress editions like 1984, Misery, Horns, etc. I don't see why wouldn't qualify as similarly done books from other publishers are regarded as fine press with no issues. And even the offset books are made with premium materials and techniques, especially the lettered editions. While the marketing methods and rights system may be controversial, there are very nicely done books coming out from Suntup. There have been a few that I found to be a letdown (mostly offsets on the lower end of his price scale), some others I find outstanding.

>178 BlackwellDen:
>180 abysswalker:

Also check out the Centipede Press Frankenstein. I have the LEC, Thornwillow, and CP Frankenstein books and the CP is my favorite. The Lynd Ward illustrations are fantastic. The problem is that the secondary market prices are too high for what it is in my opinion.

https://www.centipedepress.com/gothics/frankenstein.html

>181 Raenas: I think you've hit the nail on the head with your comment. Suntup is a publisher which sometimes publishes fine press books.

I think a lot of traditional fine press collectors are irritated more by Suntup's fans than by Suntup itself. Because, as @paperandinkguy says, they conflate fine press prices with fine press books. The margin on all of Suntup's non-letterpress books must be enormous. I haven't seen enough of the books to speak for the quality out of experience, but the fact that the manufacturing methods and materials are sometimes (though not always!) unclear tells me a lot. For 1/3 the cost, you can easily "approximate" the best materials and methods. Using mass-produced marbled paper, for example, rather than paper by Jemma Lewis, Zusia Dodin, Flavio Aquiline, etc. Or using Mohawk Superfine rather than a mouldmade paper. Or printing offset without a specified printer (ahem, in China). To me, these methods can certainly result in very nice books, but they somewhat dampen the spirit of the enterprise. Suntup has also sometimes embraced the very best of fine presswork! Jemma's paper on their "Lottery," for example.

Now, I LOVE the fact that Suntup is around, because it brings people into the Fine Press community. Having worked at three fine presses now, I can't tell you the number of times I've seen a new collector make a big purchase, and follow up with an email along the lines of, "Just found your press and am excited to get your books. At the moment I mostly collect Suntup, Sub Press, and Centipede..." These genre presses do a lot to bring people into the community, while not often directly competing with the more traditional fine presses (Thornwillow, Arion) or the private presses (Barbarian, Foolscap, etc.).

Just my two cents.

>182 SDB2012: Thank you for the recommendations, and I'll keep in mind what both of you have said.

I actually understand what I am looking for since I started buying books for myself about 2 years ago: hardcover books with high production value and art, emphasis on design / layout of the book. I never really owned a letterpress book before, so something being offprint doesn't really bother me.

In my case, I'm trying to collect novels of horror classics, not from only one publisher but only 1-2 from different publishers so I can make a photo collage comparing certain differences and for variety, and I also have to account for price. For example, I want the numbered Suntup editions of Rosemary's Baby and the Exorcist because of similar matching story themes and design, but I have to wait for a good deal first; for Cemetery Dance I am looking for only two really iconic Stephen King books to get, for Centipede, I want to get the most beautiful ones with relatively little markup in proportion to its original price. The Easton DLE of Frankenstein more or less matches what I want from that story and is easily available at their store right now, and for Dracula, I could always get the much cheaper annotated editions with wood engraving images, or the Beehive edition coming out soon. By the end of it (after about half a year I believe), I'll have collected a basic timeline of horror stories from mostly fine presses.

>183 grifgon: I just joined the fine press collecting group as well, strangely enough by collecting small press art books (i.e. a remarqued "The Crawling King" by SBI Press and "King in Yellow" by Arc Dream Publishing), and moved up slowly. I'm mostly pacing myself through overtime work so that I don't accidentally drive myself to bankruptcy or use up too much space. Book collecting addiction is a real thing (there was actually a post about that on the Suntup FB group page), and I'm trying to moderate my spending so that I can only purchase another book after I mostly paid off my most recent purchase, only buying fine press books with my overtime pay that I would never get unless I had the drive to collect. Unfortunately, not everyone is like that, and Suntup's business model creating FOMO and speculative scalpers does bother someone like me that doesn't want to compete in auctions to get a book with an inflated price.

>181 Raenas: "fine press" is traditionally letterpress, although sometimes conflated to included non-letterpress publishers. Regardless, the point is that among fine presses such as the Limited Editions Club, Arion, Foolscap, etc. the quality of Suntup's books would fall on the lower-end of the spectrum. First, (and please correct me if I'm mistaken) all of Suntup's books are basically 6 x 9 inches. That's a bit on the small side, I'm not saying unreasonable, but most fine press books (by my experience) are larger. They also certainly use higher-quality paper. Fine presses often use hand-made paper and often specially milled paper that is thick. The paper used by Suntup is "decent" but unremarkable (I've owned some 5 Suntup books for the record). The typography in fine press works is often a work of art itself. For example, take a look at the recent Foolscap Press production:
https://www.librarything.com/topic/286822#6426292
Of course, most books are not as ornate as that Foolscap edition, but nevertheless the typography in many fine presses is something that truly catches your eyes. As for cost, Suntup's prices are comparable to other fine press publishers today such as Foolscap and Arion - for instance Sense and Sensibility (Arion Press) is $700 for non-subscribers and $490 for subscribers - while the Suntup numbered edition of The Exorcist was $850. Also, books by the Limited Editions Club have been steadily increasing in value (as they should) but they are still greatly underpriced. Works that would cost $500-1000+ today can be purchased for far below that because LEC books are underpriced AND the LEC published to meet demand - most LEC books were produced in editions of 1500. As I said above, I think Suntup's strength is publishing popular works that have been traditionally ignored by fine presses. I started collecting books with Easton Press. Back then, I thought they were the height of the book arts. Of course, I realized years later that was not close to being true, and along those lines I encourage people that are really interested in book arts to explore the numerous wonderful presses.

>184 BlackwellDen: “In my case, I'm trying to collect novels of horror classics, not from only one publisher but only 1-2 from different publishers so I can make a photo collage comparing certain differences and for variety”

This sounds like an intriguing project, though I’m not sure I completely understand the goal. In you don’t mind sharing, I’d be curious to hear more.

>184 BlackwellDen:
I’m sure you’ve discovered by now that much of the cost of many limited editions is the number or letter. It remains a great mystery to me why the desirability of a 200 or 300 or 400 page book should be measured by a single number on one page, but that’s another issue. What matters most to me is the overall beauty of the book, and many (not all) of the Suntup artist gift editions get high marks on my scale. The illustrations are often top notch, and the wraparound art on the dust jackets is a nice touch. These editions can be obtained at a far lower cost than the ones with a single number on one page. The EP Frankenstein and others among their illustrator-signed editions I also consider to be bargains.

>186 abysswalker: I'm essentially trying to create a library of notable & illustrated horror stories that begin as early as Edgar Allan Poe's "Tales of Mystery and Imagination" with art from Harry Clarke, Victorian horror such as "Dracula", "Frankenstein", and "Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde", to Robert W Chambers "King in Yellow" by Arc Dream Publishing (OOP) and maybe Beehive's Algernon Blackwood collection, highly-faithful graphic novels of Lovecraft's stories, the rise of occult stories such as "The Exorcist" and "Rosemary's Baby", books that created horror subgenres such as "The Haunting of Hill House" and "Something Wicked This Way Comes". 1-2 of Stephen King's best work, possibly some Goosebumps books, then my personal favorite horror graphic novels made recently such as "The Crawling King" and "Myths, Monsters and Cryptids" and a mock "Gravity Falls Journal 3" Special Edition drawn by myself.

The intention is that I try to use multiple publishers for variety and comparison purposes: some books are relatively cheap as Barnes & Nobles while others are very expensive like Suntup, but that each is heavily illustrated and stylized to reflect the publisher's strengths (though I may get 3+ from Centipede Press because I like their designs a lot) and how they synergize with each other. At the same time, for all the fine press books I am getting in the future, I am also getting an appropriate bookmark to match it (if I spend lots of money on the book, I might as well spend $10 on a nice bookmark) i.e. a ticket to the dark carnival for "Something Wicked...", custom-made pressed rosemaries and flower petals representing misfortune for "Rosemary's Baby", a wooden bookmark with "ЯƎꓷЯUM" on the back so that its reflection spells out Murder, and bookmarks that just match the theme and color. This will take at least half a year of working overtime on Saturdays to get the money and that is assuming that the book is available at all on the secondhand market -- I might even give up halfway -- but it helps stave of the depression induced by the pandemic by giving me a goal to work towards.

>187 jroger1: I agree with jroger1 that limited edition numbers / signatures don't matter and I have no plans to resell any books I buy except for sudden emergencies, but I do want the numbered Suntup Editions for "Rosemary's Baby" and "The Exorcist" specifically because of their high production value AND minimalist design AND because they do not have dustjackets. I personally am not fond of dustjackets and how easily they could be damaged or taking them on or off. I also take it into account that the intended edition for the more popular Suntup books is the numbered ones, so as long as the prices don't appreciate much more than their listed price, I will try to get them at some point.

Again, I could lose steam almost immediately since this will take a lot of time and money (and I also make it a point to read each book at least once, since there's a lot of stories I haven't read before, or watch any successful tv / movie adaptation), but it is something to gradually work towards.

>188 BlackwellDen: ah I see. Based on the works you listed, you may also want to check out Bernie Wrightson's Frankenstein. Dark Horse did a hardcover edition a few years ago which includes the full text of the novel and 40+ full page illustrations. Not fine press, but would be right at home in a library of notable and illustrated horror stories.

Also, just to circle back to your original question:

Should I wait until the Suntup edition of the Exorcist is released to try my hand at the secondhand market?

None of the Suntup numbered editions are that rare except a few of the earliest releases, so I would wait, especially if there are other books on your list you can acquire in the mean time. You will almost certainly be able to find a better price with patience.

>185 astropi:
Suntup's books are on a smaller side because they are novels - if you look at Arion Press for example, you will find many of their books in similar size (Sense and Sensibility is 8 by 5-1/2 inches). I own oversize novels from other publishers, and don't see an immediate advantage.

As for the paper, you generally won't find hand-made and specially milled papers used for multiple hundred page novels in the sub-$1000 category, at any publisher. Suntup uses them too - for Lettered editions, that run in the $2000+ range in general, and smaller scale publications (The Lottery, Simic poems). Arion is also using the Mohawk variants and similar for their publications of novels in the Suntup Numbered price range.

The special typography is also usually the realm of very high-end productions, and even then they don't really fit modern novels. If you compare the Suntup productions to Arion, their typography is remarkably similar in detail and quality. Arion uses somewhat higher quality casts (it's their niche after all), but otherwise not much difference.

So, if one doesn't compare apples to oranges, what Suntup does with the letterpress printed Numbered editions, they are very similar to other fine press published novels in the equivalent price range. Yes, this is the lower end of fine press, but so are the other comparable works of other publishers like Arion.

As for the Lettered editions, they use the same cast as the Numbered to spread the cost, so the only difference is binding and paper used. It's true that in their price range there are "finer" publications, but that misses the point - the existence of the Lettered editions hinges on the Numbereds, they are basically a deluxe Numbered. Suntup won't do a brand new design and casts for just 26 copies.

The books you define as fine press cost much more than the Suntup books you are comparing to. I have on pre-order the St James Park Press 1984 - printed on white 120gsm Zerkall ohne-Silurian mould-made paper, printed across over 350 pages, measuring 350mm x 245mm (c.14 x 10 inches). Checks all your boxes - size, paper, typography, etc. Also costs $3,200 (and that's only the standard edition). Comparing it to the (by the way beautiful) Suntup 1984 with a publication price of $675 would be ridiculous.

>190 Raenas: yes, size of page is a curious attribute when it comes to fine press. Part of it is sheer ostentation; a large sheet of fine paper is more expensive, exclusive, and luxurious, in most of the senses of those terms (expensive, impractical, etc.). Exactly what Veblen would predict the leisure class would buy to signal the capacity for leisure.

It's also true, despite some logical contradiction with the above points, that larger pages, wider margins, and larger fonts can make a text easier, more pleasant, and even sensuous to read while simultaneously making the book itself more awkward to handle (and require more resources to store, since it will consume more space).

Many of the greatest printers have produced works in octavo and smaller format, even if you exclude the pseudo-jokes (Heavenly Monkey Bibliomidget, I am looking at you). This seems to be a matter of taste. Bruce Rogers, for example, favored the larger sizes but there are many counterexamples. I'm not sure status as a novel would be the best predictor of this; for example, Arion's Moby-Dick is large quarto (almost "coffee table" size book by lay standards). In Suntup's case, I think his size preference comes from the press origin in Stephen King collector circles. Arion itself is all over the map. Paradise Lost is close to standard octavo (though this has historical basis in the Baskerville printing). Revelation is pretty big (almost 16 by 12 inches). Tartuffe is only a little smaller than that.

The production costs of fine press books have also undergone extreme inflation in real money terms relative to standard price basket benchmarks. If you do the calculation based on official average price inflation statistics for an early Limited Editions Club book ($10 originally), for example, you will get a few hundred contemporary dollars, which is wildly off the mark for what it would actually cost to make a book with similar quality materials and craftsmanship now. This is because the expert labor and the materials are now more expensive (improvements in economic efficiency have either not benefitted, or actively displaced, the techniques and materials required). The cost of average production has gone way down (increasing the quality of life for most people, who just want words on a page, perhaps with attractive cover art) but the cost of fine production has gone way up.

(Edit to note one major technological advancement which has probably benefitted fine press production in terms of efficiency and flexibility is photopolymer plates. Still only niche of a niche though.)

>191 abysswalker:
Actually, Suntup Misery was a considerably larger production than his other books. But agreed, probably the Stephen King legacy is what defines his size preference. Rest of what you say also very true, especially on the price of LEC books - shows why it is pointless to compare prices of yesteryear's production with costs today.

As for the reason for the inflation, it is simple, and not really a direct function of materials and disappearance of expert labor, it is the value of time that has changed. If a machine can make 10 widgets per hour, while manual labour can make only 1, albeit somewhat superior widget, the price of the manual widget has to be ca. 10x of the machine made widget in order to make production economical. Productivity increases drove down prices, so if you are doing something unproductive (like fine press book making), you need to be able to make substantial money on it in order to worth it doing and hence be able to earn a somewhat normal income.

It's worth noting that 6'' by 9'' is a standard U.S. trade publishing size (perhaps the most common, in fact). Offset printers and binding machines are always equipped to manufacture books in this size efficiently, and parent sheets of mass-produced paper are made to accommodate this size (to reduce waste from off cuts).

Choosing a standard format, like 6'' by 9'' (called "U.S. Trade" in the publishing industry) or 5.5'' by 8.5'' (called "Digest") or 7.44'' by 9.68'' (called "Crown Quarto"), makes everything simpler and cheaper from a production standpoint. Basically, manufacturers are prepared to work with these formats, and don't require special instruction or accommodation.

>193 grifgon: Do you mean that suntup's books are made the same way that typical but good quality books are made? I've heard that they're done by hand using the traditional methods.

I decided to get an artist copy of the Wolfen to check out their work before diving in on something bigger.

>194 punkrocker924:
Numbered, Lettered and Roman Numeral are done by the traditional methods (some offset printed, but still hand bound etc).

The Artist Editions are indeed done in the same way as typical but good quality books, which actually likely explains the size of all editions. Since Suntup is doing Artist Edition for most books, it is kind of the common denominator for type setting and other visual work - if all editions are same size, it only needs to be done once, and since Artist Edition is only economical in a standard size, it also leads to other editions being the same size.

>194 punkrocker924: No, no, no, I have no idea how Suntup books are produced. I'm just saying that 6'' by 9'' isn't a randomly chosen size. It's one of, if not THE, most common sizes in publishing. Because of that, it's a smart choice for publishers seeking to minimize costs and production times.

>195 Raenas: I think you're probably correct in this assessment. The "artist edition" size dictates the size of the others. Sort of an upside-down relationship, but hey it makes sense from a production standpoint.

I'd be curious to know if Suntup Numbered/Lettered editions are indeed hand-bound. If so, does anybody know where? This is usually the sort of thing a fine press publisher mentions in their info, but I can't find any info other than that the books are "Smyth-sewn," which just means they're bound in signatures using big book-sewing machines.

>196 grifgon:
Yes they are hand-bound. Suntup uses multiple binders, printers and casemakers, mostly in the USA. No idea about names though except a few (e.g. The Time Machine Roman Numeral was bound at Shepherds Sangorski & Sutcliffe in London).

>197 Raenas: That's great to hear! I assumed they had to use multiple binders and printers to keep up with the number of editions they do. I'm very happy to see them supporting hand-binderies, which are too few and far between these days. Here in Portland we only have ONE major bindery remaining, after another closed shop due to the pandemic.

>192 Raenas: “shows why it is pointless to compare prices of yesteryear's production with costs today”

Also shows how market values have diverged from material and labor fundamentals. Just for one non-Suntup example, there are Centipede Press titles that have been digitally composited and printed by machine on alkaline paper which sell on the secondary market for substantially greater sums than expertly made handmade books, sometimes even of historical importance to printing, that happen to be not on trend at the moment.

An extreme example: about a month ago I bought a copy of Milton’s Comus published by the LEC (1954). I paid 60 USD for a book in fine condition, apart from some light wear to the slipcase edge. 60 isn’t even that good of a price (just check Abe), if you are a bit less precious about condition and bookseller reputation. That 60 USD got me quarter calf vellum binding, gold inlay titling on the spine, boards covered in French handmade marbled paper, the last book illustrated by Edmund Dulac, Barcham Green handmade paper, printed by Brooke Crutchley at Cambridge University Press, with a printed reconstruction of the original music, and a newly commissioned (at the time) scholarly introduction by Mark Van Doren.

Now, I totally get that Miltonic verse on the theme of chastity will draw less of a crowd than a crime thriller by Thomas Harris (though Comus the demon sorcerer has some creepy moments and all of Dulac’s women look like 15th century Stepford Wives), but the comparison still has some merit. Could one even buy just handmade paper of such quality for that price now? If you believe the club monthly letter, it took the paper company six months to make enough paper for the edition, in the 1950s. I’m not close enough to the trade to have a hard sense of what a quote for bulk prices of such materials would be for a moderate sized print run now, but I bet it would be a lot, if it was even possible.

I think I understand the basic dynamics that lead to this situation (supply and demand, brand recognition, author fandom), but it’s still interesting to consider dispassionately.

(For the record, I think Centipede does great work and prices their books reasonably.)

>199 abysswalker:
Agree with what you say, but comparing secondary market prices is an entirely different story, as they are not necessarily tied to production costs, as you rightly point it out. Especially, most of these titles from modern authors that are waaaay overpriced now compared to their production values usually have to do with them having been signed by the popular author. The Suntup Thomas Harris and Stephen Kings books have been signed too, which explains their ridiculous secondary market price.

>190 Raenas: Suntup's books are on a smaller side because they are novels
While it's true that many fine press works done today are not full novels, there are still publishers that produce novels such as Arion Press. For example, "South of Heaven" (which is a fabulous read and fabulous production) is 11-7/8 by 8-3/4 inches and the cost is $425 for non-subscribers, or just under $300 for subscribers.
I own oversize novels from other publishers, and don't see an immediate advantage.
Well I certainly do! Larger editions are easier to read, and the art looks much better.

The special typography is also usually the realm of very high-end productions, and even then they don't really fit modern novels. If you compare the Suntup productions to Arion, their typography is remarkably similar in detail and quality.
I have to disagree. The Typography on Arion is vastly superior to what I have seen from Suntup. As for other fine presses such as Yolla Bolly, Allen, etc. I agree with you that they are much higher end productions than Suntup, but they typically are also less expensive than Suntup as I note below.

So, if one doesn't compare apples to oranges
Always thought that was a silly idiom. One can compare whatever one would like, including for example nutritional values of apples to oranges. Compared to the LEC and other fine press editions on the market, Suntup is simply on the lower end. I have also noted that Suntup publishes works other fine presses have ignored for the most part, and that is really their strength.

Yes, this is the lower end of fine press, but so are the other comparable works of other publishers like Arion.
Okay, so you do agree that Suntup is on the lower end of fine press work - that was the point people were making. Although I don't agree with you in saying that Arion is on the lower end. Even their "inexpensive" (relatively) editions are of much higher quality than Suntup in my opinion.

The books you define as fine press cost much more than the Suntup books you are comparing to.
Absolutely not. I am comparing them to Arion Press, Yolla Bolly, LEC, Allen Press, etc. and while there are expensive (some very expensive) editions from all those publishers, numerous novels (especially from the LEC) are incredibly inexpensive. While the prices are increasing, right now most LEC books are still under $100 on the second-hand market. I realize people will want to rebuke by saying "but it's not fair to compare Suntup books with fine press from years ago" and my response again is that it is a fair comparison because those books are now readily available on the second-hand market! Many of the more desirable LEC editions are getting snatched up, so the supply is slowly dwindling, but at the moment many of those are still by far the best bang for your buck. At the end of the day, I'm still glad Suntup is around, and I wish them luck and hope they grow. I think they have some very nice editions. However, I still think their rights system is wrong (yeah, had to be said), and I do think purposely limiting supply below demand is "gimmicky" as I said from the beginning, now nearly 200 messages ago :)

>201 astropi:
"one can compare whatever one would like"
Yes, you can, but does it make sense? Comparing a say, $500 book to a $2,000 and happily confirming the latter is of higher quality doesn't for sure (would be daft if it wasn't).

"The Typography on Arion is vastly superior to what I have seen from Suntup."
Not in the same price range. I own both Arion and Suntup books, and while agree Arion is somewhat superior, it is not vastly. Suntup binding and slipcase on the other hand is usually nicer and more creative for the same price.

"Well I certainly do! Larger editions are easier to read, and the art looks much better."
Personal preference. And as I said, Arion also produces smaller books, which you accept as fine press.

"I am comparing them to Arion Press, Yolla Bolly, LEC, Allen Press, etc."
Show me a recent publication from either with at least 250+ pages, oversize, luscious typography and handmade paper, in the same publication price range as most Suntup letterpress Numbereds (e.g. $600-800).

"right now most LEC books are still under $100 on the second-hand market. I realize people will want to rebuke by saying "but it's not fair to compare Suntup books with fine press from years ago" and my response again is that it is a fair comparison because those books are now readily available on the second-hand market!"
You can't compare publication price with second-hand price. Those books would cost way over $1,000 if published now. Asking Suntup (or other publishers) to publish at second-hand prices of books that have fallen out of interest is ridiculous - they would be bleeding money and go into administration overnight. Look at current LEC prices - barely any books below $2,000.

"I still think their rights system is wrong (yeah, had to be said), and I do think purposely limiting supply below demand is "gimmicky" as I said from the beginning, now nearly 200 messages ago :)"
Rights system has nothing to do with book quality. Many other presses have them too, except they don't sell out so nobody complains. Limiting supply below demand has many reasons too - contract rights, number of signatures required, production schedules. Can't scale it up indefinitely, many of his books are already behind schedule. Imagine that with twice the publication size. And some authors are happy to sign 250 books, but will refuse to sign 1,000 - and signed modern works are important to Suntup, like it or not.

>201 astropi: “One can compare whatever one would like, including for example nutritional values of apples to oranges.”

I agree to an extent, so let’s compare a new book to a new shirt. I don’t need to know how a shirt is made, or even the material used, as long as it looks good and feels good, and I wouldn’t pay extra if it were numbered. I’m a looks good/feels good kind of book collector, too.

>202 Raenas: You can't compare publication price with second-hand price.
Absolutely you can, and you should! After inflation, most LEC books are far cheaper on the second-hand market as compared with their publication cost. Now, that is changing for many LECs, but the point is when people are looking for really excellent fine press books, there are numerous options where your money goes much farther than it does with Suntup (same is true for many Arion press books too).

And as I said, Arion also produces smaller books, which you accept as fine press.
True, but the vast majority of their books are larger than 6 x 9. Also, I would note that their books are not uniform in size. I personally like that books are not uniform in size but that is a personal preference of course.

Show me a recent publication from either with at least 250+ pages, oversize, luscious typography and handmade paper, in the same publication price range as most Suntup letterpress Numbereds (e.g. $600-800).
I feel you miss the point that book collectors are not looking for only recent publications. I agree that producing letterpress publications is naturally more expensive today than it was 10 years ago, etc. So what? If I can purchase a beautiful, large, fine press book with handmade paper (although it does not necessarily need to be handmade) published 25 years ago for under $600 as compared to a Suntup publication why should I not? AND I can. Although again, THAT is coming to an end. Wonderful fine press books are being snatched up quickly and since the quantity is limited, prices are increasing. Also, if Suntup produces a fine press publication that has never been produced before, I can certainly understand paying that amount for it. However, take a look at Suntup's A Scanner Darkly - printed offset and the numbered edition is still $575 - the price of a letterpress publication. Still, not faulting Suntup here. People will purchase anything he publishes, so can't blame him for making good $$$.

Limiting supply below demand has many reasons too
There are far better reasons to not limit supply below demand. Also, I have never heard any reason directly from Suntup as to why they purposely limit their productions below demand OTHER than that they want to keep the books "collectible" - whatever that means. By the way, many Suntup collectors defend Suntup's decision to limit supply below demand because they want the prices of their books to appreciate in value. For many it's simply an investment.

and signed modern works are important to Suntup, like it or not
Not sure what that has to do with anything I mentioned. I love signed modern works, but the vast majority of Suntup are NOT signed by the author. As an example, Bradbury's Fahrenheit 451 (numbered edition) was $595. For around the same price (although again, that is changing) you could get the magnificent LEC edition which is signed by Bradbury himself (not to mention production values far exceed the Suntup edition)! All that said, I admire the fact that Suntup does get the authors to sign when possible.

>203 jroger1: To each their own. I absolutely want to know where a shirt is made, what the material used is, and anything else I can about it :)

>201 astropi:
>202 Raenas:

I have the Suntup Haunting of Hill House and the Arion Press Sundial (also by Shirley Jackson) sitting side by side. The quality is very similar. Most of the differences that I see are a matter of preference. I prefer the Suntup artwork. I'm not a fan of the art on the Arion Sundial. For that matter, not a fan of the artwork on the Suntup The Lottery by the same artist. Personal preference. The paper seems roughly equal in quality. The type may have a slight edge for the Arion Press but I'm on the fence and it is a matter of preference. The Suntup Edition has a decent slipcase while the Arion has none.

The price for both was almost exactly the same if you have an Arion Press Subscription. For me, the Sundial was about $125 more ten years or so ago.

The LEC seems like a good comparison to Suntup Numbered Editions. I've never seen a Suntup Lettered in person but have all the numbered and about 100 or so LECs. The LEC also had uneven quality over the years. Some productions are amazing and quality that would be, as others have said, impossible to to equal today in the Suntup numbered price range. Other LECs were pretty mediocre. I have most of the LECs now that I want and prefer to spend my money supporting people that are alive today trying to continue the fine press tradition.

>204 astropi:
"So what? If I can purchase a beautiful, large, fine press book with handmade paper (although it does not necessarily need to be handmade) published 25 years ago for under $600 as compared to a Suntup publication why should I not?"
I am not saying you shouldn't. What you buy is your choice, noted. What is not reasonable is criticizing a current publisher for prices set based on current production costs. Of course they can't match costs prevailing 50 years ago, or sell below production cost to match prices of second hand books - why would anyone expect that, on what basis? If not being able to do so invalidated a publisher, there would be no fine press publishers existing today, period - nobody can go back in time. If you are complaining about their pricing practice or level of quality for the price they ask, you need to compare to other recent publications, even if those are not the ones you are buying.

By the way I agree that his offset books are mostly overpriced, A Scanner Darkly especially.

>206 Raenas: I was not criticizing Suntup on their cost, or at least that was not my intention. I was pointing out (and you agreed with this) that looking at other fine presses over the ages, Suntup ranks among the bottom. That said, my real criticism has always been their business model - I think it's gimmicky and I really hope it changes sometime so that more people have a chance to purchase their books.

I think this thread proves the adage “Any publicity is good publicity.”

This thread is one of the top 5 search results on Google. The “controversy” surrounding Suntup in this thread certainly makes Suntup look much more important then they actually are and I think anyone reading this thread would find themselves almost unconsciously desiring to learn more about them and what would justify 200 posts of argument.

>208 Sorion: well, I assure you I had no idea when I first posted that the thread would last for over 200 posts :)

>207 astropi:
I agreed that the Numbered Editions are mostly towards the lower end (given their price range, should not come as a surprise). Some Numbereds (e.g. Horns, Blood Meridian, The Lottery) are somewhat better, and then the Lettered Editions and Roman Numeral are an entirely different beast, definitely not at the bottom. You must consider their tiered releases. Have you seen The Time Machine Roman Numeral? That's faaaar from low end (price too). https://suntup.press/news/the-time-machine-roman-numeral-edition/

>210 Raenas:

To me it's a real shame that something this beautiful is (literally) limited to such a tiny number. It should be accessible to more people.

>211 SF-72:
It was available actually for quite a long time. It's not the limitation, but the price that stopped people from buying it.

>210 Raenas: that is a lovely cover. You know, I remember seeing that, and thinking "WOW! how can anyone afford this..." - it was $12,950
Here's the thing, beautiful cover, nice clamshell, but not having seen it (nor have I seen any reviews of it - by the way if someone reading this has a copy, I'm sure we would all love to see pictures and your review of it) I honestly can't say if the overall quality is up to the standards of say Stardust which IS a high-end fine press book published at a very affordable price (sold out during pre-publication)
https://www.lyrasbooks.com/stardust/
I agree with >211 SF-72: it is a real shame Suntup could not have produced more copies at "affordable" prices - and I know affordable means different things for different people. At any rate, I thought the lettered edition was lovely too. Again, at $2150 it was far beyond my price range. The numbered edition was certainly reasonable at $295 - BUT, since I owned the beautiful LEC edition of the Time Machine I decided to pass. Of the Suntup Press editions this one is probably among the best they produced from what I can tell.

ps Still seems to me that for $12,950 you should get a book larger than 6 x 9 :)

ps2 Historical Note: the cover on the Roman numeral edition seems to show a spacetime curve which is described by General Relativity which was first published in 1915 by Einstein. The Time Machine was published in 1895, before "spacetime" was known - just thought that was interesting!

>204 astropi: For around the same price (although again, that is changing) you could get the magnificent LEC edition which is signed by Bradbury himself

On abe the cheapest I see is a copy for $750, which is ~25% more expensive, and you get a book which is not in perfect condition. Can you tell me how much a fine/fine F451 would cost? Also, isn't the LEC F451 the one wrapped in aluminum which is super fragile and gets damaged easily? Not exactly great production.

I wonder how you feel about the quality of current LEC books which run in several thousands (roughly 2x Suntup's lettered). It's almost as if publishers want to make money on their books instead of selling them below cost. I also love this idea that limited editions should be limited to a number that is higher than the current demand. I mean, who wants to actually sell their books? Much like whisky, true fine press books need to spend three years in a warehouse in Scotland before they can be called fine press and sold to customers.

>214 filox: On abe the cheapest I see is a copy for $750, which is ~25% more expensive, and you get a book which is not in perfect condition. Can you tell me how much a fine/fine F451 would cost? Also, isn't the LEC F451 the one wrapped in aluminum which is super fragile and gets damaged easily? Not exactly great production.
Well, it turns out that abe is not the only place to purchase books - I know a bit shocking! There is a listing on amazon by a seller "dyskolosdaskalos" - don't know anything about the seller but considering the huge number of transactions and 100% feedback things are probably good. $575, seller notes
"No. 599, signed by both Bradbury and Mugnaini. Pristine copy in like slipcase. The only mark on this very delicate surface is a 1" shallow, thin blunt line near the fore-edge of the cover. Nicest copy I've ever seen!"
As for production value, it's through the roof! The choice for aluminum on the book is really novel and beautiful. Using aluminum on the slipcase was not a good idea in my opinion, but the book itself does not get easily damaged at least when just holding and reading. If this was a Suntup press, it would have been the lettered edition, which was $2950.

I wonder how you feel about the quality of current LEC books which run in several thousands (roughly 2x Suntup's lettered).
There are NO current LEC books. The LEC as run by Macy (the founder) stopped publishing books in the 80s when it was taken over by Schiff. At that point the books became more livre d'artiste. But since you mention it, let's compare prices shall we!
Suntup Press "Blood Meridian" lettered is $3950.
One Schiff book I have been searching for (but have held off buying) is A Season in Hell. 1000 copies produced. Quarto (7-1/2" x 11-1/2") handsewn and handbound in full crimson Oasis goatskin leather stamped in black. Quite a few copies are under $1000 in fine condition. Okay, say you want a really expensive LEC? Then look no further than Letter from Birmingham City Jail - I believe the last book of the LEC. Published in 2008 (only publication from 2008). Limitd to 420, luxurious edition and 14-1/2 x 12-1/4... etc. Cost ranges from $2000 to $3500 (the latter being overpriced). Even the overpriced copy is still less than the lettered Suntup edition.

I also love this idea that limited editions should be limited to a number that is higher than the current demand.
Please point out where anyone has said print runs should exceed demand - HINT: no one said so!
People have said print run should meet demand, not exceed it :)

Much like whisky, true fine press books need to spend three years in a warehouse in Scotland before they can be called fine press and sold to customers.
I'm all for it! Although I recommend a bit of Drambuie for your books...

>214 filox: "I also love this idea that limited editions should be limited to a number that is higher than the current demand. I mean, who wants to actually sell their books?"

Ah, you mean the Arion Press.

>216 kdweber: Made me laugh!

I don't think I can stomach this numbered they just announced. 775... they used premium laid paper which I assume is less quality than usual due to the size to reduce costs, but obviously it didn't reduce them much. The illustrations are not good, but are numerous. The artist has those letterpress pages that the # has. Is the Numbered really almost $600 more valuable than an artist solely due to the signature and binding (which isn't aesthetically pleasing at all). I'm saying this as a fan of Suntup and owner of # righst atm. I think I'm out on this one, I'm struggling to see the value... especially if I compare it to a SubPress # for $150 (Malazan)that has nice quality paper and is also 1000 pages.

I see that every time Suntup raises prices, the other publishers do too. And the worst thing is that it does not include the author's signature. I can't imagine a day that Subterranean Pres or Centipede would do the same for their accessible editions. It's not about love or hate, it's about seeing things being objective.

New title just dropped, Clive Barker's Imajica.

This is an interesting release in terms of presswork. First, it is huge in terms of page count, on the order of 1000 pages. So I can see the case for high quality offset, even for a deluxe edition. The text block for this one is mostly offset, but includes letterpress printed title and section pages—even for the $200 price point artist gift edition. I'm not 100% sure, but I think all three editions here use the same text block, apart from the limitation page details, of course. This means that the differences in product are entirely binding/boxing and scarcity.

The numbered edition is attractive, though the upgrade is just a leather binding and "cigar" box (half-leather binding, I suppose, due to the edges). But the binding of the lettered really shines. It is in two volumes and uses some form of interlocking squares. I've never seen anything like it before, and I wonder if anyone else here has. I think it is the same interior with a very fancy coat, but what a coat.



The art as well is a solid hit for me. The last few releases (apart from the Wolfen, which has great art) were less impressive and a few I just downright didn't like. But check this out:



Additionally, the design incorporates elements from Byrne’s edition of Euclid, a printing classic in its own right which is absolutely gorgeous—and available as an inexpensive, non-fine but attractive, edition from Taschen (seriously: $20 USD for a sewn-binding hardcover with acceptable paper). But back to the Suntup edition, incorporating design from Byrne is a loving tribute to the work itself and printing history.

The upgrades are binding-specific, but the lettered edition binding does look innovative and, frankly, gorgeous.

>219 LostStar: “And the worst thing is that it does not include the author's signature.”

If you’re talking about Imajica, the numbered and lettered are signed by Barker:

The Numbered and Lettered editions are signed by the author and all contributors, and the Artist edition is signed by the artist.

(I actually don’t care about author signatures.)

Artist edition is already sold out.
As always, here is what Suntup says about the numbered edition:

Demand for our Numbered editions has been far greater than the available supply. Please be aware that there is a chance that this edition may only be available for purchase through a lottery when it opens up for public pre-order.

So when people argue "But how do you know Suntup is purposely underproducing and would they really sell more if they printed more copies?" the answer comes directly from Suntup :)

>218 Soup811: looks like a beautiful edition, but WOW, $775 for an offset printed book!
By the way, for any Clive Barker fans, I recommend the limited 25th Anniversary Edition of "Weaveworld" by Earthling Publication. Very beautiful edition - published in 2012, limited to 350 copies, retail was $250 and you should still be able to find copies at reasonable prices (certainly less than $700)

I've picked up the AE. The lettered looks fantastic but sadly I personallh think the numbered is really disappointing. There have already been quite a few numbered offerred at cost and below. Think the book drop rate is really starting to cool some people's feet. Wolfen also not selling at retail ( but IMO the numbered Wolfen is ugly and looks like a generic exercise/notebook).

The numbered is surprisingly unattractive, and not just compared to the previous books.

There was also quite the sell off of numbered that began minutes after the announcement. So many books at cost.

>223 Schlermie:
I will wait with final judgments until I see them in hand, but agreed on these pre-rendered images the Numbered is underwhelming. I have been surprised though before quite a few times with Suntup - 1984, Auctioneer, Heinlein books and Seed all looked meh at pre-order, but very nice when in hand. On the opposite, F451 Numbered was great and popping on the images, while one of the most underwhelming Suntup's out of all.

>225 Raenas: agreed

1984 is one of my favorites and a nice surprise.

I really like the Imajica artwork.

My thoughts on Imajica numbered :

- The binding is extremely similar to Let the Right One In. I mean in an almost copy and paste kind of way. There are some details that are specific to each edition (such as the snowflakes on LTROI and the foil stamping on Imajica), but even the colors of the leather and the cloth are similar. That’s not a bad thing per se, but that’s what I noticed first.

I’m not a big fan of the looks of this book (and of LTROI obviously), but my opinion might change when I’ll have them in hand. At least it isn’t plastic leather like A Scanner Darkly.

- I understand the reason why this book isn’t printed letterpressed throughout, it’s a massive 1000 pagers ! I imagine that’s also the reason why the paper stock is only premium laid paper. I haven’t felt that particular paper, but I imagine it’s thinner than most previous papers. That’s the real bummer for me.

There was a time when the minimum, standard paper used was Mohawk Superfine (and even better sometimes). Nowadays we’re lucky to even have numbered editions in Mohawk Superfine (Mohawk Via and Cougar Natural are inferior imo, so is premium laid paper most probably). That’s disappointing to me.

- I truly love the illustrations by Jody Fallon. They are right up my alley.

- I wouldn’t have bought this 775$ edition if it wasn’t for the Rights system (yet another one you might say). I’m always hopeful the next book will be worth the train riding. I would have been tempted to buy the Artist Edition though.

EDIT : I think the design of the numbered edition has a really muted color palette, especially compared to the colorful lettered and artist editions. Strange choice.

>227 Nerevarine: - "I wouldn’t have bought this 775$ edition if it wasn’t for the Rights system (yet another one you might say). I’m always hopeful the next book will be worth the train riding. I would have been tempted to buy the Artist Edition though."

Still 72 numbered available. Rights are basically worthless at this point although a few people on the Facebook group were able to get a little money. I think the most recent one was a couple hundred bucks for rights.

I'm on the fence about this book. I like the artwork and love Suntup overall but $775 for a single volume offset print book? Folio did the 4 volume Phillip K. Dick with well over twice the pages for a similar price. Yes, the Suntup has quarter leather binding but this should have been split into two volumes as was done with the lettered which is $5,000...

>228 SDB2012:
Good point, the FS 4-volume is nearly the same price as the Suntup Press. As I've said before, his books sell out so quickly I can't blame him for milking it for what it's worth! Still, I wonder if people are going to just stop worrying about this FOMO and leave.

>227 Nerevarine: I’m always hopeful the next book will be worth the train riding.
That's FOMO for you :)
I'm curious, are you waiting for another signed Stephen King book? That's kinda the impression I've had is that quite a few people are waiting for that "home run" which will lead to an "amazing book" that is also a real investment.

The FOMO can be dangerous. I know two members of the Facebook group who have told ime that they are in serious financial difficulties due to their Suntup purchases. One who is a numbered rights holder. They always assumed they would be able to sell the odd book for a hefty profit that would allow them to pay off the others with the profits, and that's not happening. They've struggled to sell many of their unwanted at cost and face selling them at a loss to try and get out of spiralling debt. They thought Blood Meridian would bank them so money and now they are starting to panic.

The other person only buys AE's but they are a student with a low paying part time job. They blew most of their student loan and then got a credit card. They got hooked and started picking up a few out of print books from other members. They sold quite a few possessions on ebay to try and pay down their credit card, said they weren't going to buy any more but then bought Island of Dr M. They've since told me that despite pretty much maxing out their credit card with with minimum payment that is pretty much their monthly income they saw that Imajica was selling so fast and ordered it as they couldn't bare to be that person who didn't get it, even though they don't even particularly like Barker and have little interest in the story. They said that they get a huge endorphin rush when they post their latest pick ups and ever expanding shelf and get the admiration and congrats from from other members, saying that they feel like part of the popular crowd on the group. They're worrying that with the amount of books coming out that they aren't going to be able to help themselves.

>230 Schlermie:
This applies to all hobbies, and quite sad. These books are obviously not meant for such income levels (just like a Ferrari is not meant for mine). If you have to get into debt to finance your hobby, it's best to choose a different one or dial it down a step. I am on a good income at a City consultancy in a middle management position, and even like this having second thoughts about the Numbered train. The hobby should not dominate one's life, otherwise there is nothing left for other experiences and savings. Especially the second person needs help as what they are doing is really not healthy (getting high on temporary attention on social media).

I thinks there are many instances of this happening in that group, and every other hobby group.

There seems to be many people in precarious positions who somehow manage to buy these books every month, and are only further enabled by other members.

In the competition for the saddest story to win a few books as prizes, there were some very devastating things shared, where some people really depend on these things to cope with tough lives. I guess it could be worse. I suppose.

>229 astropi: « That's FOMO for you :) »

I’m well aware of this heheh. I even said so in my previous post in this thread (#167).

« I'm curious, are you waiting for another signed Stephen King book? That's kinda the impression I've had is that quite a few people are waiting for that "home run" which will lead to an "amazing book" that is also a real investment.»

I personally don’t buy books for investment. I buy nice editions of books I want to read, and only keep those I want to re-read.

I stay on Suntup’s numbered train because I am able to financially support it without really having to worry about it. Still, I feel like these are the last miles for me. As he releases more and more books (especially now that there’s often 2 announcements per month), the chances that the selection remains relatively compelling to me decrease with time. And as I said in the 1984 thread (great production btw), the quality/cost of Suntup’s productions has diminished a lot imo since the early days (which weren’t that long ago). The paper example I used in my post above is a demonstration of that.

It’s not about the hope of a new Stephen King book for me. I don’t even have Misery, and those who own one are the rights owners anyway. It’s mainly that when I look at the quarterly schedule announcement, the hints often make me curious and interested. Like the one for next month’s announcement :
« This collection of four novellas by a Bram Stoker Award winning author includes three previously published stories and one that is brand new, exclusively written for this edition. »
That’s mainly why I kept my number with Imajica. Will the announcement deliver for me though ? Thats entirely up in the air. So yes, a classic case of FOMO. :P

EDIT : 30 numbered copies still unclaimed with about 1 hour remaining for the pre-sale. That’s the most I’ve seen in a very long while with so little time left.

EDIT 2 : 25 copies goes to public sale.

>233 Nerevarine: "I stay on Suntup’s numbered train because I am able to financially support it without really having to worry about it. Still, I feel like these are the last miles for me. As he releases more and more books (especially now that there’s often 2 announcements per month), the chances that the selection remains relatively compelling to me decrease with time. And as I said in the 1984 thread (great production btw), the quality/cost of Suntup’s productions has diminished a lot imo since the early days (which weren’t that long ago). The paper example I used in my post above is a demonstration of that."

That about sums it up for me. I love what Suntup is doing but at these prices I really have to LOVE each release. I love the art in Imajica I can buy an original painting from the artist of Imajica for less than half the price of the numbered edition.

One of the 30 numbered copies is mine. I've been on the train since Hill House.

The numbered editions are all gone. $800 for an offset printed edition is just hard to swallow. Still, congrats to all that purchased, I do think it will a nice edition. And hey, if you want a Suntup book, you can enter the lottery for the lettered edition at a cool $4995 - clearly, less than $5k :)

I think it's sad if FOMO is what drives the purchases of these books, though it does seem to be a common pattern in book collecting lately. If you look over in the FSD thread about the new Folio PKD LE, people openly admit that they will only buy for FOMO, while also being encouraged by others that it will definitely increase in value. Not that different from the Suntup FB page if you ask me, the only difference is that Folio doesn't publish LEs as frequently as Suntup.

>236 filox: I think it is different though in that people bought PKD for fear of regretting not buying that specific set, whereas people buy Suntup books sometimes just to stay on the rights tracks for FOMO on later undetermined books.

>237 RRCBS: yes, and if you simply did not want the FS LE PKD, you can wait for the standard edition (which will come out at some point). Furthermore if and when the FS releases a LE you want to purchase, you can do so without having to fear that it will be sold out before you ever get a chance to think about.

>237 RRCBS: That’s an excellent point, and it makes the two situations apples and oranges in my opinion.

I found a recent newsletter by Grim Oak Press interesting. It seems that some customers tried to get the owner to establish the Suntup system of people having a right to the next Limited edition (it seems the Lettered ones can be sold out quickly, the numbered editions are less of an issue) even when it's in no way connected to the previous one. In the newsletter it was stated that this wasn't going to happen - everyone should have a fair chance to get the new book. I definitely respect that and think it's the right way to go. That way those who really want this specific book have a fair chance and others don't feel pressured to buy something they don't want in order not to lose the chance to get something else they might want further down the road. It's much better than what Suntup does from a regular Buyer's point of view.

>240 SF-72: « It's much better than what Suntup does from a regular Buyer's point of view. »

Totally agree.

That’s indeed the fairest way to go imo (and I say that as someone who has a Suntup number). Nice response from Grim Oak.

>240 SF-72: Agreed. I think any rights system should be limited to 'in-series' volumes.

>239 U_238: FOMO is FOMO if you ask me. If your decision is driven by a fear of missing out rather than the actual desire to own the book because you like it, that's FOMO baby. Also, I thought we liked comparing apples to oranges reading the above posts?

>243 filox: I see your point about FOMO is FOMO, and it’s a fair one, I’ll grant that. But the context is different, and discussed already, so I won’t repeat myself.

I can't believe the person I referred to earlier with the obliterated student debt and massive credit card debt from purchasing AE's has just 'hopped on the numbered train" too...

Insane. Today I saw someone who said they just "hopped on" this month decide to get off just as quickly.

>246 U_238: Probably couldn't resist the opportunity to become a numbered subscriber as up to now it's been so difficult (until so many let theirs lapse with Imajica) but then the stark realisation of the Financial commitment hit them.

>245 Schlermie: "I can't believe the person I referred to earlier with the obliterated student debt and massive credit card debt from purchasing AE's has just 'hopped on the numbered train" too..."

That's sad. I hope that person can get some help somehow as that sounds like an unhealthy addiction.

I've been working continuously since I was seven years old and only recently, and well into middle age, felt comfortable spending the amount of money on books required for the Suntup numbered train. I'm very grateful to be in that position. I let go of my number with Imajica- not bothering to try and sell the rights. I think the Suntup numbered productions have had their ups and downs but overall love them.

The decision was simple math for me. I realized that if I refinanced my house into a shorter mortgage with a lower interest rate by spending less than half of what I spent on Suntup numbereds each month and didn't buy the Suntups over the next fifteen years, I'd save over a quarter million dollars. As much as I enjoy the productions, they aren't worth anywhere near that much to me.

You could say that isn't entirely true as there is money to be made on the secondary market by buying Suntup Editions. I suspect that most of the big multiples will continue to be in the early additions I already own. Only a few fine press books if any appreciate in value over time more than the S+P 500.

I just hope my number didn't go to someone with an unhealthy addiction.

>248 SDB2012: "The decision was simple math for me. I realized that if I refinanced my house into a shorter mortgage with a lower interest rate by spending less than half of what I spent on Suntup numbereds each month and didn't buy the Suntups over the next fifteen years, I'd save over a quarter million dollars."

How do you figure that? By paying additional monthly principal in an amount equal to the amount you would have paid monthly for the Suntup books, and thus reducing the overall mortgage interest paid over the span of the full amortization of the mortgage?

Sort of. I'd only have to pay half or less of what I spent on Suntups as additional money on the mortgage. Savings in interest is over $130k when going from 25 years to 15 year mortgage at half the interest rate. The additional monthly cost is about half of what I paid on numbereds. The additional money spent toward principal would have been spent anyway so I did not count it. I figured $8k per year ($120k total over 15 years) for numbered editions but if they keep getting priced like they have recently....

>245 Schlermie: but, how can they even afford to pay for it?
:/

>251 astropi: Exactly my thoughts. When I spoke to them last they had maxed out a £6000 credit card and used all their student loan and they only work part time enough to just about cover their minimum payment. Another loan maybe...

Looking at the amount of Imajica numbered and even lettered that have gone to lottery and people can't sell for below cost, and pretty much zero value to rights at present I would say the bubble has well and truly burst. Let's hope they have some pretty great title's lined up or there are going to be even more people jumping of said trains and more books going unsold. Hopefully won't have any implications further down the line if these are all being worked on so far in advance.

We have to keep in mind that it was the second book of the month, and quite an expensive one also. I expect many people dropping off the sub train as time goes on, especially if he keeps the same steady rhythm of announcements. It can be an exhausting ride financially to keep up with.

But there’s also a considerable number of people just waiting for their chance to get on board. After all, it only took less than 2 minutes for the 25 remaining Imajica Numbered Edition to sell out. That’s quite a feat for an $800 book if you ask me. The hunger is still there, but it obviously won’t be as big as it was for Silence of the Lambs, or The Exorcist, or Blood Meridian. I don’t think the bubble is burst, but it has deflated a bit since the end of the big releases string. That was to be expected, there’s only so much heavy hitters they can come up with 1-2 time(s) a month. I wouldn’t worry about Suntup, they still end up selling out most of their books…

I’m happy though if there’s more and more copies that make their ways to the public sale. Those who truly want a particular book have at least a chance to get it that way without having to keep riding the train until an eventual title pleases them.

>253 Schlermie:
I think the bubble didn't really burst, it's just that some editions are less coveted than others. It's been the case for a long time, for example Horns never really fetched more than its publication price, and that's a book both cheaper and better than the Imajica numbered (letterpress, bound in real snakeskin - one of Suntup's best). The feeding frenzy in 2021 Q1 was entirely due to the high profile titles in the pipeline. If there is another such pipeline in the future, the frenzy will most likely return.

>254 Nerevarine:
"Those who truly want a particular book have at least a chance to get it that way without having to keep riding the train until an eventual title pleases them."
Only if it's a title like Imajica, i.e. not hyped up. For books like Silence of the Lambs, I predict the only way is the train or secondary market.

>255 Raenas: Most books arent SotL. Look at all the cheap, unsold copies of Wolfen, Island, Imajica. Blood Meridien barely sells above cost, same for Exorcist.

>256 U_238: I think that's my worry, are there going to be any more 'knock it out the park' titles. Yes there tonnes of potentially great books that Suntup can do, but do they fit in with the genre the fans seem.to lap up and will they be loved by enough people to shift the kind of numbers. I think that is going to be key for Suntup going forward. If they aren't going to be titled that are going to be particularly coveted, the prices need to come down quite a chunk. There is only so much people are going to be prepared to pay for a book that is made really nicely if they don't particularly care for the story inside.

>257 Schlermie: I honestly have a hard time understanding your worries about Suntup.

Are you aware that Imajica is 100% sold out ? The only books that can be bought directly from Suntup are the Artist Editions of Wolfen and Dr Moreau. Oh and the lettered edition of Simic’s poems (this kind of book for sure doesn’t strike a chord with the fans).

It’s a pretty great track record imho. The Artist Editions more often than not took months upon months to sell out in the past. So it’s mostly the same as it’s always been. Heck, Numbered editions were up for hours just about a year ago…and that was for 250 copies.

I’d also ‘worry’ if the Lettered and Numbered (which are now at 350) didn’t sell. But it’s always a sell out soon after the few remaining copies go on public sale. No matter the title (apart from poetry books though).

And I don’t say this to jump at the defense of Suntup. I’ve been vocal about their Rights system that I personally find questionable, and the diminishing quality/cost ratio. But in the end they seem to be doing more than fine with the sales of their books.

I think Paul’s doing great, and has nothing to worry about.

It’s the ones on the train that do.

Someone in the group did the math today - with shipping and taxes to Europe, and selling unwanted books on eBay or Abe’s, all the unwanted books would need to sell for 25% above list just for him to break even.

>259 U_238: yeah that's a good point. People don't often take into account if you sell something on one of the big platforms like amazon or ebay or abebooks etc you really need to sell it for about 20% markup to break even, and I've seen quite a few Suntup books sell for significantly below cost. That of course is not limited to Suntup, pretty much any such press will have books that sell below cost.

Here's an idea that follows the Thornwillow model - Suntup books are available for a limited amount of time for pre-order, and therefore anyone who wants a book has a chance to order it! You don't have to worry about limitation number, because if say 550 people order the numbered edition, you produce 550 copies (or maybe 50 more so 600)! Everyone is happy! Honestly, the only people I see unhappy about this are the pure resellers who just want every book to end up being worth a huge amount of money so they can just cash in at the end - for the people that actually like to read books, this would be perfect... BUT, I don't see this ever happening, and the reason being: Suntup. As far as I can tell he likes the fact that his books sell out super quickly and are in "high demand". This is why I've called Suntup "gimmicky".

>258 Nerevarine: I agree it's going great, so far. It's the future I have concerns about. Hopefully it carries on being great. As I was saying there have been some great titles so far, can Suntup continue to secure books that are going to appeal to everyone to the point that they sell out quickly, and if so how long for. I guess it's in reality a small percentage because many satisfied buyers stay quiet, but there just seem to be a lot of people starting to question whether they can continue to buy at these prices and at this rate. I guess Suntup are constantly reinvesting their profits as they are working on books so far in advance before they are announced. If, and I mean IF, sales do start dropping off how will it have an impact on cash flow?

>170 Cabinetmaniac: every Suntup has most definitely NOT appreciated in value.

>230 Schlermie: holy shit. Wow.

If Suntup continues at that rate, he will kill the goose that lays the golden egg.

>260 astropi: I always thought their model (Thornwillow) was an interesting one. The artist who illustrated Murderbot Diaries for Sub Press did a similar limited edition set of artwork - only the number ordered in the 2-week period would ever be produced.

But yes, like physicians and surgeons with huge wait lists, this publisher seems happy that there are more people who want the books than there are books to be had.

When I lay my ear to the ground, this is what I hear. When I gaze at the horizon this is what I see ..

Suntup, the books has gone sort of commercial now, and I feel (personal opinion) it`s not holding that mystique any longer like in the early days. Now it`s more like a rock concert with pumping adrenaline, rather than something deeper, and nothing wrong with that, we are different many of us. There will be more great publications of special titles still to come, but nothing compared to what once was .. I dare to say ever, which is why I am fine with the AE`s, as that makes it possible to be in the long run and pick and choose, slow and steady wins the race sort of.

The price of popularity is that it kind of kills the mystique - I think. The irony is that the facebook group played it`s part with and sort of killed that mystique (in the long run), if that group never was, there would be this more unique object. A smaller private press, with less pressure, maybe better quality and so on. I am not smashing anything here, to that I am not entitled. Suntup could still go back to it`s roots in a way, but needs to be in a larger scale of course.

I am really glad I had that dip early on, and not from here on and after. Two different experiences. Unlikely to happen again as I don`t double dip.

In Norway we have this television program called Luxury Trap or something, and your countries likely have something if not similar. Kind of entertaining, kind of sad. People buying stuff they can`t afford, with big consequences entrapped in their own past expenses for years to come. Don`t own anything, other than a huge debt. A Stephen King signed edition is not worth years in debt. Let`s make that clear.

>267 Pellias: To put pricing into context, Folio Society had 100 copies or Misery signed by King and the artist. The price? £150. They sold out pretty much instantly understandably. Whilst not exactly the same animal, when I look at what I can get from Folio for £40-£50, it makes me think, as stunning as they are, even the AEs are overpriced these days. They should be about $60-$80. Yes they have the artists signature, but personally I'm not particularly bothered about that. But if a Folio with a King and artist signature is $210, is $140+ for a Suntup AE good value?

>268 Schlermie:
I don’t pay for signatures. If I like the book I buy it, signature or not. My reasons for buying a few Suntup artist editions were that I liked the novels and the art, including the unique wraparound art on the jackets. $130-150 might seem a little pricey but not if you really like the book.

Count me in the camp of those for whom signatures do not matter.

>269 jroger1: and Folio is playing in the same pool with some releases—American Gods is 140 USD, for example. I don’t have a copy of this, but it looks from the description like about the same quality standard as Suntup artist gift edition.

>271 abysswalker:

I'd consider FS American Gods a bit better than the Suntup Artist Gift Editions I've got so far with regard to quality. It's a rather thick book with excellently printed illustrations (the paper and print quality are better for the illustrations) by an artist that I assume is rather expensive and directly connected to previous work by Neil Gaiman. That's not a criticism of Suntup - I enjoy the books I have by them. In addition, FS don't have the same price everywhere - their price in Pounds is below that of Suntup AG-editions, but their books cost more in the US and some other countries. And that's something that is rather problematic. The book is also not signed. So basically, each publisher has pros and cons, but both have produced some very beautiful books.

>272 SF-72: Yea as owner of books from many different publishers the quality varies title to title, not always by designation (numbered/letttered/artist/standard) There are many folio society books that I'd consider superior to AGE Suntup while being at same or lesser price-point, the difference in price accounting for the signatures that Suntup has and Folio does not.

>268 Schlermie: How do you feel about FS Dune for 495 GBP?

>274 filox: Haven't seen it. I own the FS Dune for £80 though and it's a stunning book.

>275 Schlermie: Do you also own American Gods / Anansi Boys? I have not read either, nor have I read Dune... but one of those three will be my next purchase, curious on your thoughts on the design/illustrations. Anansi Boys seems to be the most striking design with the amount of illustrations and page edges... but maybe it isn't the best story

>276 Soup811:

I have all three and really like all three novels and their FS editions.

That being said: I would agree that Anansi Boys is the most unusual one and the most intricately designed / illustrated one of these. It's a really well done and unusual edition, it's even better 'in person' than in photos. As for the novel: It's actually one of my favourite books by Gaiman, a wonderfully fun ride of a book. But it is connected to American Gods and I don't know if one will have the same enjoyment I had without reading American Gods first.

Unless the author comes to your house and reads it to you, that price is preposterous. It's something for people with too much money to waste it on.

>277 SF-72: I have not read Anansi Boys nor American Gods. That said, I have read quite a lot of Gaiman's works including his famous Sandman comic series which some consider his masterpiece. My favorite Gaiman work by far is Stardust. I think that is Gaiman at his best and that is what got me interested in his other works which honestly were a disappointment after Stardust. That said, would you say Anansi Boys and American Gods is worth reading?

>279 astropi: They are definitely worth reading, though I would start with Neverwhere which is my personal favorite.

>279 astropi: As mentioned by >277 SF-72: I would go for Anansi Boys first and then American Gods - the latter being so much deeper than the first. As a production both FS editions are beautiful. I've read almost everything by Gaiman (but not Stardust; watched the movie though) and I find American Gods his best work yet.

>279 astropi:

Anansi Boys and American Gods are very different from Stardust, which is more fairytale-like and romantic. I guess Neverwhere might be closer to it, though it is darker than Stardust. Still: To me both American Gods and Anansi Boys are excellent Gaiman novels and I would recommend them. But then I don't enjoy Stardust as much as other Gaiman novels, so you might well see this differently.

If that kind of thing interests you, I would also recommend the audio book with the All Cast Performance of American Gods. It's excellent.

Interesting video from Suntup about common concerns:
https://www.facebook.com/suntupeditions/videos/202519998380172

Responses that I thought were most relevant:

11:10 - Answering why does Suntup increase prices?

18:00 - Mentions how others are comparing the prices / quality of Suntup Books from books from other publishers

20:20 - Mentions why the costs of "Misery" and "Imagica" are different

21:09 - Mentions and explains the system for pricing Suntup books (Basically cost of paper + cost of printing / book blocks + cost of artwork / introductions + going through multiple binders, etc.)

24:40 - Responding to "Are Suntup Books a value for the money spent?"

26:30 - Does increasing the print run (250 to 350) save money due to economies of scale? Apparently economies of scale only kicks in when you print thousands of book, not an extra hundred.

29:50 - Will Suntup go back to producing only 12 books a year? (Basically responds that he doesn't expect all or most of his customers to purchase every single book he makes, and that he will keep producing more than 1 book per month because the demand is there)

34:30 - Is Suntup trying to lower the value of numbered rights? (Basically Suntup doesn't care about the value of numbered rights or book costs in the secondary market, and that it is not their responsibility)

36:10 - Does he consider "Wolfen" a failure because it didn't sell out? (He seems to want some of the Artist Gift Editions to linger so that other customers can wander in and purchase).

38:10 - Is it important for him to acquire rights for a book with an author signature? (Apparently not, the cost of the book is based on hard production costs, not necessarily signatures according to him).

49:15 - Is he worried about how preordered books are suddenly put on sale on the secondary market at an inflated price? (He doesn't like it, but it is not something he can control).

50:44 - Does Suntup consider the previous limited editions from other publishers made of the same book they are making when planning their own releases? (Yes, he prefers not to make limited editions of certain popular books, though there are exceptions like "The Exorcist")

52:40 - Can there be more letterpress books? (Mentions that more letterpress - more expensive books due to printing complications).

54:56 - Elaborates on the origin of the numbered rights system (Suntup gave early customers the right to match their number with the next purchase based on their request, and then it snowballed into the matchmaking system known today). Currently has no plans to change the system, though may make decisions when needed.

58:36 - Why limit the print run of books? (Answers that they don't have a lot of warehouse space, or based on contractual restrictions).

59:45 - Are there any plans to show the production process of the books to customers? (Yes, will bring back production process showcases soon)

1:02:29 - Why the secrecy for new book releases? (Suntup likes creating excitement through secrecy for the new release)

>283 BlackwellDen:
Thank you for the summary. That is a very long video to go through otherwise.

>283 BlackwellDen:

Thank you for the summary.

I'll preface this by saying that I did not submit questions and have never had an issue with the quality of the books I have received or Suntup's customer service - I think it's a great company making nice (though now overpriced) books. But the FB community has really started to creep me out.

Yesterday's video and the response to it were pretty cringeworthy. I think Paul would have been better off just saying something like "if you don't think you are getting good value at the price points being set, don't buy the books. I don't want unhappy customers, but the decisions I make will undoubtedly not be loved by everyone" and leaving it at that. Coming back to pricing/value/quantity questions over & over again made him seem overly defensive. Some of the questions he received were unfair and snarky, but why even choose those to be ones that he answers? Felt unprofessional for him to play the victim because of a few disgruntled folks when clearly his business is booming. He even called out a specific customer for chastisement, not by name but by reputation and anyone who's in the FB group knows who he was talking about. You run a business, you're going to have unhappy customers - deal with them professionally in private and move on. But the collective dutifully fell in line with shouts of "that's so unfair!" and "you're books are perfectly priced!" and "how dare anyone questions your business model!" for the duration. After all, there are prizes to be won and good favor to cultivate with the FB group admins, lest you get on their naughty list.

I'm glad that so many people like the books and are willing to pay anything for them, and there are plenty of friendly folks in the group that love books and just want to share that love. But when any amount of crticism, some of it clearly legitimate, is instantly shouted down then it is pretty clear that it's not a completely healthy community. Definitely getting a Scientology vibe where it's all smiles and sunshine until you scratch the surface and find some real ugliness beneath. It's all gotten to be a bit much.

>283 BlackwellDen: Thank you for the summary.

>286 stumguy: I like the fact that Paul asked for questions and answered them. No, a publisher doesn't need to respond and be this open but I think it's a good thing. I sent in two questions and both were answered: More letterpress (no) and 12 books a year (no). Not the answers I wanted to hear but he's the publisher and can do what he sees fit. I do appreciate that he was willing to answer the questions. I have not watched the video so I can't say whether I find it cringe worthy. Again, I appreciate a publisher that is open about their direction and policies. I have purchased quite a few of the numbered editions but the value is no longer there for me and I've decided to drop off the train. I'll pick the AGE of books that really catch my interest. I hope Suntup remains successful.

>287 kdweber: Most of what made me cringe was the responses from the viewers. Felt like a political rally.

I also appreciate that he solicited and answered questions. Much of the Q&A was very interesting & helpful. But it could have been done without the "look at how mean some of the customers are to me" bits.

And there was at least some gaslighting IMO. The Imajica AE is a $200 book at 1000 pages. Fair enough, that's a giant book and I'm sure cost a lot to produce. But Island of Dr. Moreau was a quarter of the size (and public domain content) at $130, 65% of the cost of Imajica. The new AE that just dropped is less than half the size of Imajica and 75% of the cost. Charge what you want and I will buy when I think there is good value. But don't get all disgruntled when people point out the pricing inconsistencies, because I don't doubt that his profit margin has enjoyed a healthy boost. And good for him - his hard work is paying off like it should! But don't smugly suggest that the people questioning his pricing are fools. Of course some people are going to say that they are no longer getting value for their money. When prices go up and quality remains the same (or in some cases gets worse), value goes down. That's how value works.

Kealan Patrick Burke... ugh...

>289 thecollectingdad: while I realize your reaction might be idiosyncratic opinion, would you mind elaborating? I’m unfamiliar with this author’s work. Given the price, the binding designs, and the offset printing, this one probably isn’t for me in any edition, but I do like some of the art and am now intrigued by your immediate, visceral response.

>290 abysswalker: his writing is childish (see Sour Candy). It’s like a high school kid writing scary stories. Not someone a “fine press” should be publishing.

>287 kdweber: kdweber There technically are more letterpress books on the pipeline, but he goes to explain that are significantly more expensive to produce due to the issues.

I personally don't care what he publishes in the near future since I won't be buying any more expensive books for at least 2-4 months due to some recent purchases, and he is free to run his business however he wants.

>230 Schlermie: Schlermie I feel bad for these people who are victim to FOMO, as it can really go out of control. Like mentioned before, I've spent a lot more money than I should have recently and can only fully pay off that amount spent with 18 Saturdays worth of overtime, but I still have a decent amount of savings and a stable full-time job in case something goes wrong. For the first person mentioned, I feel like its better for him to step off the numbered train. The Suntup FB group recently has a bunch of sellers trying to sell their numbered editions at cost or at a loss due to what seems to be financial issues, and IMO Suntup books (or any books for that matter) are not solid investments. It's better to step off the numbered train, pay off your debts and save up some money before considering what books you want. For the second person mentioned (the college student), I hope they understand that student loans / credit card debt WILL eat them alive if they don't practice self-control right now. Sorry if it comes across as patronizing, but I've heard horror stories of people taking years to pay back their student loans (if not longer), and with the economy the way it is right now, it is not a good time to accrue debt.

>283 BlackwellDen: I didn't bother to watch to the very end of the video so there may be some stuff I missed. Anyone who has doubts can watch from the link above.

>292 BlackwellDen: I got what he meant. My question was essentially would there be a higher proportion of letterpress books in the future. To which the answer is no.

Today's pre-release sure makes me feel better about jumping off the numbered train. Skipping the AGE as well.

>283 BlackwellDen: 29:50 - Will Suntup go back to producing only 12 books a year? (Basically responds that he doesn't expect all or most of his customers to purchase every single book he makes, and that he will keep producing more than 1 book per month because the demand is there)

I have a few questions - first, is Suntup going to produce more than 12 books per year? Considering the price, that's a LOT of money. Also for a small publisher that's quite ambitious, but honestly quite exciting. Or, I would be excited if it were not for the broken rights system and artificial limitation - which brings me to the next question. How can he expect his customers to just skip books given the system he has set in place?

>294 astropi: Perhaps if he publishes enough books each year almost no-one will continue with their rights and most books will be sold on a first come basis or by lottery.

>295 kdweber:

One can only hope. But I'd definitely prefer a first-come option over the lottery system if there's a half-way reasonable number of titles freely available.

>294 astropi: Customers skipping particular books is not really a concern at this point - lots of people passed on Imajica and there were plenty in line to buy the remaining copies. From a business perspective there doesn't seem to be anything "broken" at all with the rights system currently in place. I think it's just a problem for the folks that had wanted to buy each & every book until it turned out to be too much to afford based on increased prices & volume. That was an unrealistic expectation predicated on the notion that the business would never grow.

I appreciated Paul’s sincere Q&A. I only had 2 major complaints about Suntup in general, and he tackled both of them :

- I personally think the value has decreased with time. The obvious amazing deals are well in the past imo (Misery, HoHH, The Road), even if there are still some good ones here and there. But Paul is 100% right when he says that the perceived value varies from person to person. I’m entitled to my opinion, just as anybody else is entitled to think that value proposition is through the roof. I’m not forced to buy all of his books, and that’s just fine. And of course I want him to stay afloat financially.

- I’m not a big fan of the Rights system. At least not at the level Suntup operates it for the numbered and lettered editions. He specified though why it was a thing in the the beginning, which I appreciate and understand. But I had hoped he would have stopped at 250, and whatever limitation’s number past those 250 would be openly available without rights. That would have been a good middleground imo. At least it’s not too late, he talked about upping the numbered limitation in the future. Maybe he’ll come up with something similar. And like >295 kdweber: stated, there’s a chance more and more numbered make it to the public sale as time goes on if he continues to publish more books.

As a side note, I’m a bit disheartened to see some of the conversations over at TheDarkTower forum. There’s a pretty notable poster there who goes on big rants, calls us childish names (fine fools, cultured swine, etc), accuses us of bias (how self unconscious can someone be?) and much more. It’s honestly a bit sad to see such behavior from a grown-up dude like that. Most people here are respectful and voice their opinion in a constructive way. I may not agree with some opinions here, but that’s taking it too far.

Edit : Splync bringing in some sense.

>298 Nerevarine: Is this correct in a way ?

* Librarything is the place for opinions.
* Darktower is the place for the innermost circle of friends with their own tribe language (nothing wrong with that, just saying)
* Fanpage on facebook is the place for celebration (.. and sales)

* .. Cemetery Dance forum is for the same people that join in at Darktower.

- I have learned one thing, most important. Do not discuss the books, but celebrate them. To discuss them is not okay for some reason.

>298 Nerevarine: I saw that on the DT forum too, and it is strange. He really went out of his way to prove my point that the hardcore Suntupers are more than a little defensive about their preferred publisher - and in this case had to embellish, exaggerate, or misrepresent what's been said here in order to attack the people that have anything but unrelenting praise for all things Suntup. Remember that we are discussing *books* and maybe adjust the intensity appropriately - it's not healthy to have so much of your personal identity tied up in this. Reminds me of people that scream at their TVs when their favorite team is having a bad game - perspective is key.

>299 Pellias: I’m re-reading my above comment regarding DarkTower, and I might have been a bit harsh. The Suntup page of that forum is obviously for the core fanbase (a bit as you’ve put it with the innermost circle). It might sometimes feels like a sort of echo chamber, as I’ve rarely seen any type of (construtive) criticism come up. But just like in here, I think most people there are very respectful of others opinions. I enjoy reading the comments over there (especially when Paul chimes in), but definitely not the kind of comments recently that veered into sneering and « us vs them » territory.

I can’t speak for the Facebook group or the CD forum, as I’ve never visited either. But I guess you might be right.

>298 Nerevarine: I think Suntup could still do great books similar to The Road (which was not letterpress nor signed by the author). It's a matter of choosing the right book and right artist. I know the artist for The Road, he was a perfect choice!

he talked about upping the numbered limitation in the future
Yup, and George RR Martin said Winds of Winter is "forthcoming" :)
Suntup has acknowledged for I don't even know how long that demand far exceeds production, and he has also said for I don't know how long that he *might* increase production... yawn. I've given up, he can do what he wants of course, but I am off the Suntup train and will either purchase a book I want through the secondary market or just not.

Most people here are respectful and voice their opinion in a constructive way.
I think so too. Most of us are after all unbiased book lovers we speak our minds but are congenial too!

ps When I started this thread, I figured I'd get a few people to respond and we would have a short discussion - not 300+ responses...

>302 astropi: To be fair though, he did increase the limitation of the numbered edition 6 months ago, from 250 to 350. It might not be enough to satisfy the demand, but such is the nature of limited editions. I don’t know where the next limitation increase will land (and when), but I guess it’ll hover around 450. That should alleviate some of the thirst (he’s a victim of his success, or rather we are).

As for when it’ll happen, I don’t doubt upping the limitations is a complicated and lengthy process. These contracts seem often to be made years in advance, so it kinds of limit what can be done short term. We’ll see I guess. I just hope more numbered will be made available to the public sale eventually.

Edit : Yeah that’s quite a big thread you got there lol

As I see it :

Reading the posts at darktower, some are from another reality, another world. Taken out of context and wordplay, projection of who said what and what may. Outing of usernames etc ..

If there was a poll at librarything - Suntups books would be well liked by those that want that kind of publications, and the only (hard) criticism at this place is as I can see the business model, because it is easily manipulated so that it is hard if not impossible to buy the books, which can cause some light frustration now and then (but the storm has blown over to become a light breeze if any now, for most of us if I can say)

It can be interpreted that the reason for Paul`s Q and A originated from this thread`s "negativity" .. that is not true, and very simplistic and one sided (which is why I write this).

Price point, limitation and the increase of publications and the bi-effects from that, without breaking them down, these opinions did not come from this place

Supply and demand for the books is a fact that has been brought up here (and everywhere else) - Paul knows and addressed, we all see the sell outs which is hard data.

Paul & company has likely read this thread, and other threads. Yes, there are opinions, some a little out of context, some irony, some stupidity, some subjective and objective truths, experiences and observations. Paul`s books are popular here (I mean, look at the activity - good or bad, it`s there). I see no "hate" for the books here, from what I can read it is more about the love for, which is why etc ..

Paul & and company rightfully has a lot of pride and joy for these books, and the saddest would be for them to scribe what comes out of the darktower now as hard facts.

That said. No one knows the facts better than Paul as he sits on the data, there he can read that for instance I have bought a plenty from the company, with more to come, and that is not hate is it ?

So, with sticking the finger in the earth. No true hate here, if so it is not very dominant, frustration can occur, but the dominating factor is with the love for ..

Arguments like what is growing out of darktower and becomes a kind of the real and only truth, is more false than right. We are all fanboys and girls, just maybe not always as fanatic with each publication, like everyone else ..

-

And Paul. I hope you read this, because this is important and the reason why you do this : It is a joy to unbox your books, to read and have them on the shelves for all to see ! I refuse to be believed to be pissing on your dream out of some false truths and semantics, and we (If I can speak for the rest) are very proud of you all for following your dream.

So much for the `haters gone hate comments` .. not much touch with reality other than in the mind of the ones who wrote them.

This is the closest I will ever come a hallelujah !

>1 astropi: Congratulations on your thread ! It has hardly started ..

>304 Pellias: "Reading the posts at darktower, some are from another reality, another world. Taken out of context and wordplay, projection of who said what and what may. Outing of usernames etc .."

aka - haters gonna hate +)

In all seriousness, I'm with you on most of your points. My comments have always supported what Suntup is doing. I'm impressed even though it's gotten way too expensive for me to buy all the books.

I also agree that we need to be able to discuss the books without taking a personal insult. We aren't going to all agree on what is a good production or not but when there objective flaws in printing or craftsmanship, those should be able to be discussed without taking personal offense.

I do see how being compared to a cult could be offensive to people. I don't think that calling that out means someone is out of reality.

Cult : I dare say. In general those that define anything as a cult do that from the outside looking in, very seldom vice versa. I know a cult when I spot one on social media, and that is one. It starts with books this time to drag people in, manipulate them to become missionaries for a dangerous cause not sure known, at least not to me. I have heard rumors of people disappearing without a trace from within the community, only rumors bear mind.

If you mix the words from Darktower you get `Drake Wort`- (short for, I am not quite sure, but something like `Demonic worship` in a very, extremely ancient tongue) which is communicated now and again through books bearing double sided dust jackets. Rosemary`s Baby anyone? Paul also sometimes adds secret clues for `members only` inside the books, and sprays the books with addictive perfumes making the public wanting more, and making the innermost even more (is that even possible) loyal. I know this as some random fictional fact ! The members only, numbered club is a group of loyal servants nicknamed `the guardians`. Now and again some of these guardians "sacrifice" themselves for a higher cause, victimizing themselves saying `oh no, boohoo I have to jump of the train` this is indeed fake, they say they do, but they don`t. They play their part from a manuscript. Scribed by `the one`. More new members that way, dragging people in, recruit or emptying their wallets as need be if they can`t be of any better use. Scratch marks and broken fingernails has been found by the authorities. It is unsure how many `they` are, and what they are up to. Indeed, .. a cult until proven otherwise. Trust no one, and have a nice weekend (you too `Drake Wort` - Grr) ..

>306 Pellias: That is hilarious. Thank you for that. We need more good satire in the world +). You have a good ear for it.

Confession- I thought you were serious for the first two sentences.

>306 Pellias: Looking at this and your previous comments from an impartial viewpoint (I'm not a member of Darktower or the Suntup Facebook group), why does it even matter whether people you have never met and likely will never meet, are keen to "celebrate" the work of a particular publisher? Your comments about Darktower and Suntup read like there is some kind of history between you. If that's the case, be open about it. If there is no history or axe to grind, then maybe just let it be. No good can come out of flaming other groups for holding opinions that are clearly different from yours.

I've just had mosey on over to the Dark Tower forum and whoa! That is some childish, pathetic posting from a very small minority. I can't believe some reasonable, constructive discussions on here are causing such ridiculous outrage and pant pissing on there.

Some seem to suggest that Paul's Q&A was done purely in response to comments on this forum. Ridiculous! It had likely come from negative comments within their own Facebook group. I really doubt Paul would feel compelled to have to defend his business in such a fashion due to the discussions of about 3 people on a third party forum.

I haven't seem any immature name calling on this forum, or anything generally as childish as some of the posts on that forum.

I think most people on here have the utmost respect for Paul Suntup himself, his books and his business and want nothing but success for him and for fellow fans of his books. The cult comments, whether meant in jest or not... jesus I bet Paul appreciates the support but surely he must even cringe at some of the comments and attitudes of a handful of individuals. I mean some of them almost seem almost a little Annie Wilkes..

Though I'm sure 99% or the posters there, like us, are just happy to buy and read wonderful books and occasionally discuss them with others and respect that sometimes people have different opinions, and realize that opinions aren't attacks..

>309 Schlermie: "I think most people on here have the utmost respect for Paul Suntup himself, his books and his business."

Absolutely. It's been an impressive start to what I hope is a long term thriving business.

>309 Schlermie: Indeed the Dark Tower thread is getting quite out of hand. I used to visit that forum in the early days but stopped after it was clear it's becoming Suntup's cult, and this is coming from someone who enjoys his books (and in fact has no problem with the many things that people complain about here). I would however point out that there are things in this thread as well which aren't great. In general, this thread can seem a little bit condescending, which I would wager can rub people the wrong way. Not that it justifies the kind of response that it provoked, but let's also not pretend that this thread has been nothing but flowers and sunshine. At least this is how I view things as someone who has the middleground (not going to say unbiased or impartial, but 'in the middle').

>308 John_McClane: We are playing with words here, and you read what you decide to read. Hint : Don`t take >306 Pellias: to literal. If someone is offended by that text (which is not intended), it`s not my problem. If that text gets twisted into something it is not intended, it`s not my problem. It really isn`t. If I had any grunge (or what it`s called) towards someone not present - I would not speak about someone not present in that same room, no fun in that. But what I can do, is to address what I did in post >304 Pellias: the reason for that is like >309 Schlermie: says (writes) `Some seem to suggest that Paul's Q&A was done purely in response to comments on this forum` - (when in fact most of the addressed Q and A originated from the fan page on facebook). That is not an opinion that should get legs to walk on and start running, because it is not an absolute truth, not even that close. If so show us where? I personally would not like it if Paul (Suntup) believed that we had sat here bashing his dream, when in fact we very much respect what he does. Hope he does well and in good health and all that. That is what is most important (for me). God this is turning into a cliché.

There are not much drama here (and none with me, neither here nor there), and in the end - why does anything matter, unless we make it so. And when drama is no longer entertaining, it stops. We are grown ups, all of us, and shouldn`t fall of the branch that easily. Comments happen, it`s social media. And, you reminded me, it`s been a long time since I saw Die Hard, Die Harder and Die Hardest and the even harder ones after that which I have not seen !

Great people here and there (Darktower people and other people) most likely which is important to address, maybe even possible friends (dragging it a little to far now maybe, but who knows .. my god) and opinions should be allowed to live on or to be broken down - nothing more in it than that.

Hail Darktower Group, Fan Group, Librarygroup, and every other group out there ..

Waving white flag (because no one else will ever do it) .. but I still have my bow and arrow in the other hand if needed.

On another note, congrats to Paul and co for their Guests sellout.

I can’t say I’m familiar with Kealan Patrick Burke’s work, but I’m always down for some spooky reading. It fits Suntup’s roots quite well. And I always enjoy the feel of Japanese cloth in my hands…

The latest development to hit the page is an admin openly advocating rights owners collude on pricing to prop up the value of the books. Stranger and stranger.

The newest book is printed offset. Even the Roman numeral edition. Is it really that expensive to print letterpress these days? I mean the book costs thousands of dollars...

>314 U_238: wait, what ?

>316 Nerevarine: There was a short-lived post earlier today, I saw it shortly before it got deleted. The admin was expressing frustration that the newly-released book was getting listed for cost, or less, and encouraging everyone that wanted to sell the books to all make a concerted effort to list it for at least $100 above the list price. That there was a dark side of doing that, and it would kill the value of the books early on before. Similar frustrations were expressed when Imajica was released, that it was being sold before the “price was established,” but not to this extent.

>317 U_238: No way. That’s wicked. Glad I’m not on their page.

>315 Lukas1990: I noticed that too. $5555 USD for the roman numeral edition. The paper is also the same for three two of the four states (artist edition, numbered, and lettered are all printed on Mohawk Via). It is probably the same text block for those three two states. (Edited to correct mistake pointed out below.)

It was interesting to see the level of credit paid to the bookbinders, including the binding production video for the roman numeral edition scored with dramatic music. From the descriptions on the site:

...
The Lettered edition is limited to 26 copies and is a Dorfner style binding after master German bookbinder Otto Dorfner, who developed this structure in the early 20th century. The binding is sewn on supports with goat leather strips laminated to silk, with the boards attached to the textblock by the sewing supports. The boards are covered in full goatskin with goatskin onlays and blind tooling on the spine, and the flyleaves are covered with a suede material on one side. The edition is sewn and bound entirely by hand by master bookbinder Jacek Tylkowski in Poland.
...
The Roman Numeral edition is limited to 10 copies and is bound in full leather. The leather features an original design using hand dying techniques and photographs of live models, which are transfered to the surface. The block is sewn onto stubs for a perfect opening. The boards are laced on, for the greatest durability. Doublures and headbands are in leather. The edition is sewn and bound entirely by hand by master bookbinder, Zigor Anguiano Calzada in Spain.
...

It looks to me like Suntup has decided to focus more on art binding than on printing. The Imajica lettered state also used an experimental "pixel" binding and many other releases have distinctive bindings, such as the coptic/whatever bindings used for some states of the McCarthy novels.

I suppose this isn't surprising given that Paul got started rebinding a trade hardcover edition of The Eyes of the Dragon. And see the recent Dragon Rebound project: a fancy rebind for the trade hardcover edition of The Stand (10 copies sold for $5500 USD each).

As a side note, I love the art for the most recent release (Replay), but I don't know anything about the author (Ken Grimwood), and don't generally care for stories that feature time travel or related conceits.

>319 abysswalker: « The paper is also the same for three of the four states (artist edition, numbered, and lettered are all printed on Mohawk Via). »

I doubt the Artist Edition is being printed on Mohawk Via. Did Suntup said so somewhere? The only AE that used the same paper as a Numbered and/or Lettered is last month’s Guests (all of those were printed on Cougar Natural). There has always been a difference of paper quality otherwise between the AE and the other editions.

But it’s a shame it isn’t printed letterpressed, especially for the asking price of the roman numeral (and lettered).

>320 Nerevarine: you're correct; I think I misread the marketing blurbs when bouncing around the page. I will updated my earlier post momentarily.

The numbered and lettered are both printed on Mohawk Via though, which still seems notable, as my sense is that the paper used for lettered states is usually an upgrade compared to numbered states.

>320 Nerevarine: and agreed regarding the printing. There are several Suntup numbered releases that would be on my wishlist were they printed letterpress, such as Let the Right One In, especially since the artist edition of that book has a layout error (in all copies). Even if printed letterpress the value proposition of a Suntup numbered edition is uncertain (for me personally), though I think it would tip the scale for a handful of releases, depending on the market price.

>317 U_238: Paul said in his video that he doesn't expect everyone to buy every book. But if people want to keep their number they obviously they have to. With the increased frequency of releases now some people have to sell a.s.a.p to keep the cash flow going in order to purchase the next book they hopefully might want to keep. They can sell a.s.a.p and try and guarantee a quick sale, or they can play the long game as the admin suggested and try and get another $100, but they then risk missing out on initial sales and taking longer to sell it or even having to sell for less.

I get it in a way, if the first person to list theirs lists it at cost then any other sellers probably have to list it at cost to be competitive. Even if you had a few people that would be happy to list $100 more there would always be some that would sell for cost or undercut them to try and shift their book a.s.a.p.

Go back a few months and being a numbered rights holder - getting to flip a decent amount of books you didn't want at a profit - it was a benefit of being a rights holder, and being able to sell the rights for a chunk too. There wasn't such a rush to sell due to the extra profit and slower release schedule.

With the market how it is at the moment, having to sell at cost or below, especially when tax and shipping is factored is the penalty a rights holder has to pay if they want to keep their particular number but not keep all of books, when the other option is to give up rights. It's basically going to cost them a premium to do so now.

You can't artificially inflate market value by everybody holding out for more. I'm not sure if that is what was intended or not as I didn't see the post as not a member of the group any longer. As with everything supply and demand and cash flow will dictate market prices.

I'm not familiar with Replay, but it's clear Paul has put a lot of love and passion into this title as one of his favourites (though he does with them all) so I hope this does well for him and he gets to share the story with people who might not have read it.

Somebody help me! Where is the thrill of always getting the same number, or any number at all for that matter? It’s only a book after all — meant to be read and enjoyed for its elegant design and workmanship. But a number?

Wouldn't really bother me but it clearly matters for some. I guess from a collection point of view it might increase value of a collection if they are all the same number. I'm not sure. I've bought numbered books and other limited items before. I guess if people have been collecting suntup since day one, then it may feel like 'their' number maybe?

So no one has read "Replay?" I might buy the Artist edition for the art, but a little worried I'll regret once I read the actual book...

Really, in this case I'd rather just buy a Giclee of the dust jacket and skip the actual book...

>324 jroger1: I don’t get the desire for a specific number either, but I see “in search of” requests for specific numbers with some regularity in various collector groups.

“Any” number at all I do understand though, because the number in series indicates the book lives up to the publisher’s (or artisan’s) vision for the release.

In fact, I just recently picked up a book that was done by a well known printer. When I got it home, I noticed that it was out of series (unnumbered) but an exemplar of a release that should be numbered. This kind of bothered me since it wasn’t noted in the description, but I figured I was just being precious, and it was probably no different from the standard issue. However, I looked more closely and, sure enough, one of the pages is duplicated! It seems likely the defect was noted in QA and rejected from publication, but the book somehow found its way to the secondary market. (The bookseller hadn’t noticed, was apologetic, and offered a refund or exchange if desired.)

>325 Schlermie: >327 abysswalker: I have a specific number which I like to receive whenever possible — #127, and barring that, #27. While I'd never *not* collect an edition because I couldn't have the number, I always ask, and am delighted when I can get it. There's something cool about having books from Arion Press, Greenboathouse Press, St. James Park Press, Thornwillow Press, Allen Press, Foolscap Press, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. all next to one another with the same number. Gives the collection a greater sense of community to me.

My most recent acquisition is "The Travels of Sir John Mandeville" from Foolscap Press, which I bought from another contributor to this forum (shoutout to my fellow PDX'er). I was on the fence about it, but when I saw the copy was #27, it sealed the deal.

That said, anybody who says "That's dumb" is totally right. There's no explaining it rationally!

I have asked about this unique number business, here and there. I have never found a rational answer - or any answer at all. The usual answer `number doesn`t matter to me` is most common when asked on say librarything. I have asked at the suntup facebook page one time, and at the dark tower page, no replies, ignored or not satisfying answer. It`s likely because it is a stupid question, but why I don`t know.

I can see a unique number can be unique with the whole back and forth catalogue, but what`s the point with 20 with the same number, 10 with a different number and so on. It`s already messed up in a way.

Red Dragon and Silence of the lambs with the same number
The Road and Blood Meridian with the same number
Kings .. etc

I can see these appeal to OCD`s and "completists" for some weird reason, but in the end it is only a pen number for me. And I would like to think I would not pay more for books even if they held the same number. The limitation is what matters more to me.

In some artificial way. A unique number makes a buyer feel more unique, as the number is personal. Like a locked on missile.

We humans care so much about strange things that doesn`t matter at all, the strangest of details, just because we want to feel special. Sellers know this, and appeal to certain personalities, but far from all, most really don`t care.

I can see why some people bought miracle elixirs in the wild west, while others didn`t

>329 Pellias: "but far from all, most really don't care."

I'm not sure this is true. On Thornwillow campaigns, backers are always given the option to request a number or indicate that the number doesn't matter to them. About 80% request a number, and of those, a third will go so far as to indicate their reasoning.

Specific numbers are often sought after if the book is a gift, also. For example, #47 as a gift for somebody's 47th birthday.

>331 grifgon: I see the point with single volumes, special editions that also hold a symbolic value as gifts, special occasion or sets or whatever. But a specific number, a train ticket if you may for long term. Just counted Suntups books 34 in total from that specific press. Really starting to build a back catalogue there, and more is coming, rather fast. When 34 maybe one day (to say a number) reach a 100, most likely will have split numbers anyway - can to much publications down the line take away some of the uniqueness of a number, I would think so, sort of watering it out. The less editions published the more unique the number (makes sense to me at least).

Again, I do see your point. And to drag it even further because everything is sort of connected - I personally don`t see the point of using a said number to up the price (other than from a business point of view of course, which makes sense) - as it has been done, making some books more worthy than others because of a pen number. Unless as you say, a gift or some other special occasion. If I was in love with a woman that loved the number #7 I would fight to get that number - or not, most likely. I would really love her if that was the case. Those collectors that are in the bubble collecting a certain something yes, many doesn`t even know what they are buying, but buy because they are Suntup. Many buyers would be happy enough just given the chance to buy an edition, whatever number(s) because of the expenses down the line.

For example say Red Dragon and Silence of the Lambs hold the same numbers and are being sold for .. I don`t know. Just to say something probably not so far from the truth .. say $500 more than if the numbers were different. Some would always pay that of course, some would always pay a certain something more than others and many wouldn`t care whatever number because the books are not as available that customers would have the luxury of pick and choose a certain number in the first place.

Again, I do see your point and naturally agree with you on your example.

To sum up this mess :

The more books a publisher publishes, the more the number are likely to be watered down, and I doubt most of us mere mortals would buy those books mentioned for $500 more just because of similarity in numbers.

As a side not. No big deal - none at all, but there are an example from an early Suntup edition that lacked a number which was numbered by a buyer. That is if Jeff dared to number his Rosemarys Baby even if he had the blessing from Paul :)

>314 U_238: "The latest development to hit the page is an admin openly advocating rights owners collude on pricing to prop up the value of the books. Stranger and stranger."

Which page? Facebook or TDT.org?

>333 Cabinetmaniac: The Facebook group. But it's worth noting that he retracted the suggestion shortly thereafter in response to negative feedback from the group. Also, he was only speaking about a small number of people offering just-announced books at cost or even below, no doubt in a bid to keep their matching rights in the face of an imminent credit card bill.

>335 U_238: That the admin has a lifetime subscription and takes a generous percentage of all the sales they broker likely have no relation to their efforts to prop up prices in the secondary market.

I like to collect the same number/letter if the books are part of a set or series. If they are unrelated then I don't care which number I receive.

Suntup books are a series of sorts.

>335 U_238: if you only knew how shady that guy is.

Regarding limitation numbers, if you play the long game a distinguished subscriber’s number could become known and add a pedigree to the book in question. For example, The Limited Editions Club, which started in 1929, assigned a limitation number to each of their members and that was the book they received. One of the original subscribers, L. Max Schuster (of Simon & Schuster), had limitation number 111 so outside of a bookplate (that often are removed by secondary owners) it is a way to identify who originally purchased and, perhaps read, this particular volume. Arthur Andersen (founder of the disgraced accounting firm) had limitation number 548.

I might leave that FB group. Some discussion topics I like to read, regarding speculation of upcoming books mainly. However, the majority of posts in that group are people selling books... I wish they would just split the group into Selling books vs. Discussing them. For the name being Fans of Suntup, a ton of people sure like getting rid of their books for $$$

I follow the group since a few months. Never bought a book from Suntup, almost pulled the trigger on Imajica AE! What I like is the selection of books which are published, it gives me new ideas and pathways to follow as they are almost all out of my genre of reading.

What I don’t understand is the overwhelming capitalism at display. It’s foreign to me being from a welfare state in Europe, but it seems pretty much an accepted fact. It leads to all kinds of strange incentives, push and pull and that takes away from the main purpose for me: owning and reading books in good quality editions. Add pricepoints of all editions (don’t forget about the shipping, tax, other costs) and I’m seriously outpriced. I understand that median income must be much, much higher in the United States and that conclusion also might be skewered by this particular group.

I like the Suntup announcement videos by Paul the best and the new follow up Facebook live sessions which are pretty informative and enthusiastic. And then the book gets dropped the day after and the sell off starts. That’s the time again to check out.

The overwhelming majority of members of the Facebook group were a good bunch, and genuinely nice. But everyone does seem much nicer when free books are given away and people are able to sell there books at a nice profit.

When I left there were lots of people listing books but not very many selling. Some people who I considered the big heavily hitter collectors who would never sell were even starting to sell big chunks of their collections. As someone mentioned earlier maybe they planned on being completists but realized they wouldn't be able to be so started trying to sell some off.

>335 U_238:

I thought the main attraction of selling through Facebook was not having to hand over a percentage of the sale to the selling platform, like you do on ebay etc. Are you saying that someone cashes in on every sale through Facebook? And does that go just for the Suntup group, or also the Folio Society group? I'm not a member so far, but I'd been thinking about it after Ebay changed their system and now take a higher percentage, including the shipping fee, while also having installed a lot of stumbling blocks for international sales / purchases.

>339 Soup811: Apparently the admin did try to change the rules so that no books could be listed for sale until after the public preorder, but I heard that got shot down too.

I guess we have to remember that whislt it seems like everybody is selling their books, in reality it is actually a tiny percentage across the editions. The vast majority order them, keep them and don't discuss it on social media.

>342 SF-72: Selling books in Facebook groups doesn’t incur fees or anything of the sort on behalf of the seller.

The specific thing I referenced I was told by someone reputable recently - every time the admin sells a book on behalf of someone, the admin takes a 20% cut, for setting up the sale. That, along with the fact they receive every numbered and lettered version for free after their initial investment in the company, demonstrates why they are so distraught with the recently plummeting prices.

Apparently over 40 spots were unclaimed as of Friday night, from persons choosing not to purchase the next book.

Many people just cannot maintain it, especially having no idea what books are coming every couple of weeks and not being able to guarantee to sell it, or it least sell it a price that with cover the cost. But as Paul said, he doesn't expect to buy every single book, so some people are going to have to hop on and off the so called train, which IMO great. Let the people who want to buy the book over those that don't direct from Suntup. If they want to buy the next one, great, they can keep that same number, if not, then hop off and let someone who does want the book buy it, wash and repeat. How it should work really and probably how it was originally designed to work. Everybody wins, except those that were in it purely to make money (other than Paul of course).

Still 40 copies left of the Numbered edition with about 2 hours to go. And 5 Lettered.

I'm new to this group & am mainly interested in older books (I collect George Macy LEC/HP). But the behavior you're describing reminds me of what I've seen in other "newly created collectibles" markets, such as comic books, sports cards, beany babies, etc... Any attempt to pump up a market is bound to fail in the long run. In the end, it comes down to supply & demand.

>347 ChrisG1: I think a large part of the Suntup collector population is an offshoot of the Stephen King collectors community, which itself is one of the more dedicated branches of the modern 1st/1st market, which cares less about quality of product (in a material object sense) and more about rarity and precedence. This itself is a mass market manifestation of the early 20th century book collecting fad (I don’t mean that word pejoratively) which was an interesting phenomenon. Some influential voices in that movement actually suggested avoiding all artificial limitations, new issues, and private presses as poor targets of collection. The ideal seemed to be a objects of purely historical interest.

I think the biggest thing that keeps me from hopping on the train, even more than the expense and my lukewarm reaction to many of their titles, is the fact that I would have to wait a good half year before actually getting the book in hand. If I joined the train, many months and thousands of dollars would go by before I ever received book #1. That's tough to swallow, when I can get instant gratification from many other outlets.

I’m really happy that a growing number of Numbered copies make it to the public sale. Same thing happened with Guests, and to a lesser degree Imajica and Doctor Moreau. Of course none of these are behemoths like BM or SotL, but no doubt it’s mainly due to the increased announcements per quarter.

The remaining copies aren’t flying off the shelf, which I find a bit surprising though. I guess Replay might resonate a bit less with Suntup’s audience, despite being the all-time co-favorite novel of Paul. I honestly thought that fact alone would have made it a hit within his community. Still 12 copies remaining after more than 20 minutes into the public sale.

>346 Nerevarine: This is good news and it doesn't hurt Paul either as all copies will sell. I jumped off the numbered train when I finally realized I only want about one in five in the numbered edition and 50% in the AGE with no interest in about 30% of the titles. If enough copies are freed up people will get to buy just the titles they want and more people will get to sample Paul's books. In any event, I don't think Suntup will have too much difficulty selling 250 copies of the numbered edition. 350 copies with creeping prices and more releases may be another question. I skipped Guests entirely and just bought my first AGE (Replay).

>344 U_238:

Thank you for answering my question. So it's basically a kind of commission fee when the person in question is actively selling a book for someone else, not when other people offer their own books and sell them without that person's help. That's okay then, though it certainly wouldn't make them neutral, but very much interested in keeping the business profitable by keeping prices high.

>351 kdweber: I entirely agree with you on all points. I kept my number for Guests and Replay though, because I’m quite interested in reading them. But I’m ready to hop off any day now and hopefully able to pick up titles I want here and there in the public sale.

The way I see it, the FOMO that was a major issue of the Suntup numbered train seems to be dropping with the increased rate of releases, which is good for secondary market buyers.

In my case, I am just keeping track of the announcements. I already overspent a lot of money on books and may need the entire latter half of this year to make up the amount spent, and even if Suntup were to suddenly announce a bestseller book, I can afford to wait to buy it later on the secondary market since there isn't much inflated value right now. For example, when Exorcist was first announced, people were confident to try selling their AGE preorders at $300+, but due to current trends and its subsequent release, they are offering them for $200+ or lower. I've also seen FB posts of people trying to sell the numbered I Am Legend editions at cost, so they have to drop the cost to $100 less than the list price, so its generally a good deal for buyers unless something dramatic happens.

Right now, the only books I am looking forward to are ones that were preordered months in advance, or Centipede Press's upcoming Dune if I am lucky to have the opportunity. Only recently joined the waiting list in March so no high expectations, and I won't try to buy it from the secondary market since it will likely be massively overpriced and I have bigger concerns, but it is the only book series I'll buy that will convince me to break my self-imposed ban of books since it is a nice hallmark of my progress in life (my first limited edition book I bought with my own money was the Easton edition of Dune).

>349 AMindForeverVoyaging: Waiting a few months for a book is pretty standard, no? Unless you're buying an older book, most presses today will take preorders for a new title before the book is finished. See: No Reply Press, St James Park Press, Hand and Eye, Lyra's books...

>355 filox: I meant in terms of hopping on the Suntup numbered train and having to repeatedly pre-order every 3-4 weeks before finally getting the first book ordered in roughly 6 months. If one were inclined to go on that ride, which would probably mainly be speculators.

That’s it. After about a year and a half, I’m done being on Suntup’s Numbered train.

I got nothing against the choice of the new novel. It seems like a great read. But once again, there’s absolutely no paper-quality difference between the lower-end Artist Edition and the Numbered or Lettered. The production details diminish so much as time goes on.

The Numbered Edition is more than 3 times the price of the Artist Edition, with just the Japanese cloth on the boards and slipcase to show for it (and 1 more imo pointless signature).

>357 Nerevarine: interesting choice for the next book, "Johnny Got his Gun" - definitely a classic but also difficult book to read due to the subject matter. I can certainly understand frustration at having the AE and NE being nearly the same thing but the other far more expensive - I wonder if this edition will actually result in a NE exodus? I do have to agree, the extra signature on the NE does seem a bit futile.

Oooh, I really like the artwork on this one. First time I've been tempted by a new Suntup release. The numbered looks great.

>359 grifgon: but, why the numbered and not the Artist's Edition? They both have the same artwork and appear to be the same material for the most part :)

>357 Nerevarine: Yeah, I'm glad I am no longer on the numbered train - the value just doesn't seem to be there anymore. Happy to pick up an AE now & then when it's a book I am interested in at a reasonable price, but those have been few & far between recently as well.

In related news, on the FB page this week I saw an admin get apoplectic when someone else made a similar comment about not seeing the value any more (I forget if he was talking about lettered or numbered editions), making an appeal to the quality of the materials, binding, etc. The same admin later told someone that his copy of Misery, which easily sells for ~$500 on the secondary market, is only worth $100 without a slipcase. Consistency!

The only people left on “the train” at this point are speculators and groupies.

>360 astropi: I love the cover on the Numbered! The full-bleed cased artwork on the Artist Editions always looked too much like trade books to me.

But is the cover (plus slipcase) enough to justify paying three times as much? Probably not.

Edit: I should add that I just saw that the book isn't letterpress, which basically means I won't be buying. Letterpress is a prerequisite to me for any book over $29.99 ;-)

It has gone completely downhill from Blood Meridian, which had such hype that the magic cannot return - can it ? Seriously, what can Paul do ? Build some excitement for sure, but what titles would make people just as nuts ? 350 numbered editions in total, seem to be enough for now, maybe up it to 400, but no more.

I am seldom on facebook any longer, particularly not during summer, so I can`t say for sure, but the attractiveness of being on the train has fallen quite drastically, is it even a subject any longer - it was the only thing people talked about before, quite the opposite now.

If you are hungry and eat a full lovely meal, you are not hungry any more - for a long while. That feeling.

>364 Pellias: the selection of titles recently is just baffling. My guess is he’s having a hard time getting anything good under contract to publish.

>365 thecollectingdad: I think Paul is taking a more personal approach, and publishing what speaks to him. Replay and so forth. The increased frequency of releases doesn’t read to me as being unable to get contracts.

That said, the choice of title selection does seem to diverge from what I see as the core of the brand. Misery, Silence of the Lambs, The Exorcist, The Road, Rosemary’s Baby, I am Legend, Let the Right One In, Haunting of Hill House. Cinematic and horrific. I don’t like Misery myself, but all the others on that list I would appreciate a letterpress edition with careful production values.

None of the recent titles has really excited me either, apart from Imajica (though that only seems to make sense as an artist edition).

My pick for the perfect Suntup titles that don’t yet exist would be: American Psycho and Fight Club. I think Paul has gotten both of those authors to introduce/sign other titles too, so maybe they are not even too much of a long shot at some point?

What I find more baffling is the increasing lack of differentiation in construction apart from binding. I care most about the printing and I just can’t bring myself to spend the numbered prices (second hand for me, since I have no interest in being on the numbered train) for books that are offset printed and, in the case of Johnny, even without paper upgrades.

I just received my first suntup book last week, the Exorcist AE. To be fair, I know I bought the lowest tier, but I still honestly feel a bit disappointed. The slipcase is really good, but the book itself didn't convince me that it was worth 150 dollars. I think what mostly bothered me was the quality of the paper the illustrations were printed on. It almost seems as if they were printed on the same paper als the text itself. In my opinion the illustrations would have been much nicer if they were printed on different paper. All other aspects were fine, but in my opinion not exceptional and definitely not nice enough to justify the hype. Honestly, I am glad that I haven't bought any other books from this publisher at the prices they are charging on the Facebook group.

>367 afje96:

That's definitely an issue, not just in that volume. I prefer publishers that give their illustrations different paper in such a case so that they can really 'shine'.

The Exorcist is a nice book, but not $140 nice. Compare it to The FS version which I think was £39.95 and its not $100 better. The art is.. interesting. Some nice pieces, but the one with Merrin standing outside the house similar to the theatrical poster looks terrible IMO. It feels like a £40-£50, maybe without the artist signature, but if I'm honest I'm not really bothered about having artist signatures.

>363 grifgon: Exactly. The cover and slipcase are quite nice. If this had been letterpress, it would have been the first Suntup edition I might have been drawn to. (Usually the subject matter precludes me entirely, but this choice sounds interesting.) Sadly, the numbered edition is not letterpress, so my money is safe for other publishers and projects.

>368 SF-72: +1

>369 Schlermie: it is worth noting that the prices on the secondary market for the Folio Exorcist and Suntup Exorcist Artist Edition seem to have roughly equalized; there are no copies of the Folio Society Exorcist edition listed on either Abe or eBay at the moment, but I have seen copies sell for £120 and £130 within the last few months.

At the time of this writing, I see 16 copies of the Suntup Exorcist Artist Edition on eBay with prices from £150 and up, but many of the listings permit offers, so the real price is certainly lower, especially given the relative supply glut.

>371 abysswalker: I guess we have to remember, for people like me who paid £39.95 for FS Exorcist, the urge to sell if they can get £100 or more for it will be much greater than someone who has paid £140 with international shipping for the Suntup to sell it for what they have paid or less. I think quite a few people will have seen how quickly it was selling, thought it may be another banker on the secondary market and bought multiple copies to flip, only to find the opposite!

It seems like from the comments above that the Suntup bubble is deflating.

So far about 1/2 the AE of Johnny have sold. This is a classic and important book especially in the WWI/antiwar genre - not something that I imagine most Suntup subscribers subscribe to, so I do not expect this to sell out quickly. That said, for me this is a tempting choice because as pointed out there are simply no quality productions of this important work - the closest I can think of is the Easton Press edition which I believe just includes afrontispiece and is also selling for more than the Suntup AE so not a difficult choice here :)

Oh, and this interesting

>374 astropi:

Does the morbidity of the story detract from enjoyment of the bite of the type? Or does the beauty of the production make the story palatable?

>375 cpg: good question, for me I would say high-production makes the story a bit less bleak - it's probably the beautiful illustrations. Still, not an easy read any way you look at it.

I have ordered the Numbered, but was really biting my lips, as find it quite overpriced for what it is, especially compared to The Haunting of Hill House for the same cost. Quite likely my last Suntup while on the train - the next book and quarterly announcement must be REALLY tempting to make me stay on. If I decide to leave, I will also break up my intact row of Numbereds and sell a few I don't care much about.

>377 Raenas: In his latest broadcast Paul did say that there are a couple of big hitters coming up in the final half of the year.

60 Numbered remaining with 2 hours to go
2 Lettered

Edit: 58 Numbered remaining with 1 hour left
2 Lettered

Edit 2: 48 Numbered and 2 Lettered will be available in the public sale.

>378 Schlermie:
That's what I would say too if I was in the business of selling. I will have to see with my own eyes.

I’m quite amazed that there are still 12 Numbered copies left 24 hours after the start of the public sale. That last slew of books announced (after Blood Meridian) truly burst the bubble. Hype can definitely come back with some big titles, but I think the market is stabilizing.

>377 Raenas: Don’t forget that if the new clues in Monday’s quarterly announcement don’t seem interesting to you, you have 10 days to cancel your previous order. Note though that Suntup doesn’t do refunds, but give you store credits.

>381 Nerevarine: Yeah. I skipped this one. The title appeals to me but the numbered seems very overpriced as others have pointed out by comparing to the AE. There are hundreds of AE editions left. I have so many Suntup Editions in the pipeline, I'm not willing to spend any more money unless it's something really special until I get more of the books in hand to judge the quality myself. The design of 1984 was very encouraging for me. I like it a lot. More and more I'm annoyed by the lack of interior pictures of the Suntup Editions other than photos of the artwork.

Back to Johnny- Why buy the numbered at full price when people are already selling it below list price on the Facebook group?

Edit- Still, selling close to 350 numbered editions within 24 hours of the public sale of a title that isn't high demand is an extraordinary success.

>382 SDB2012: Buying it at full price directly will have rights attached to it.

> 383 Rights are worthless at this point unless you're looking to have a complete set of matching numbered Suntup Editions. That may change again for a short time if some big books (like a Blood Meridian) are published.

I had rights since Hill House and dropped out when Imajica was announced. I just couldn't see spending close to a grand on a Clive Barker novel no matter how nice the production. I jumped back in for the next book because I loved the art and was out again with Johnny. At this point, you can buy whatever numbered editions you want without worrying about a lottery. I don't see that changing anytime soon with talk that the production of numbered editions will be increasing again. Again, you never know what Paul has up his sleeve so that may change next month and I might regret not having rights. I doubt it though.

Almost all of the titles (maybe all) since moving to a numbered edition of 350 are readily available at or below issue price on the secondary market. I think the prices for most of the more recent editions will drift down but the most desirable early editions will hold value better and maybe even increase a little as more people are introduced to Suntup Editions. I love a few of the Suntup Editions and like almost all of them despite their faults but may sell my earlier/sought after ones as clearly, other people value them a lot more than I do and are willing to pay far above issue price for Hill House, Red Dragon/SOTL, and the McCarthy novels.

As a fan of fine press books and as a business owner, I'm impressed with what Paul Suntup has accomplished. It should be celebrated. It looks like he's finding the sweet spot where he can still sell out quickly at a high price while those who want the books the most can get them.

The new announcement schedule for the months of July through September has been unveiled.

From the looks of it, July’s title might be Peter Benchley’s Jaws. August’s title is most probably Blackwater from Michael McDowell. No idea what September’s title might be, but it sounds intriguing.

I’m definitely not interested in reading Jaws, so I’m glad I hopped off the Numbered train with Johnny Got His Gun (if it is indeed Jaws). Interested in Blackwater though.

I’m also glad Paul came back to a 1 book per month announcement schedule, for this quarter at least.

I enjoy Jaws for nostalgic reasons and would pick up the AE if that is next month's book.

August certainly sounds like Blackwater. I really regret selling my CP set, so I'd be all for that.

>385 Nerevarine: 'deliciously dark' and a story for all ages makes me think Charlie and the Chocolate Factory.

I jumped several books ago and I can honestly say it was the best decision I made.
I have not regretted it at all and if there is anything that takes my fancy, and there hasn’t been so far, then I will buy it second hand. However the way its going I would probably be able to buy it at retail.
If I was a betting man I would say Suntup will never be like it was pre Blood Meridian especially with the big names on the forums ditching the numbered editions. Like kids leaving home for the first time, good to call in now and again but you don’t want to move back in permanently.

>386 SolerSystem: Great guess with Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. Not sure that’d be my thing but it definitely fits the description.

>387 gatchafan: « Like kids leaving home for the first time, good to call in now and again but you don’t want to move back in permanently. »

Hahaha great analogy. That’s exactly how I feel (both in regards to my parents and to Suntup’s offering).

Charlie & the Chocolate Factory would but a fun pick, though I'm not sure that I'd pony up a limited edition of it.

Don't' know anything about Blackwater, I'll have to look into it.

Jaws is iconic as a movie - as a book it was pretty bad.

Blackwater is 6 volumes, is Suntup planning on publishing them all?
I have to say, I was NOT a fan of the CP Blackwater series. The art was wonderful, the production value not wonderful. The dust jackets were damaged, the slipcase did not fit, there were other production issues with that set. All that said, Blackwater is a fabulous read, it will be interesting to see what Suntup does with it should they decided to publish the series - and really, it should be the entire series one book is not enough :)

A small suggestion. "Suntup Editions Books - Gimmicky or Not" was an extremely interesting discussion topic (thank you astropi!!!), but since the thread has evolved into a discussion of all things Suntup, would changing the title be possible?

When I Googled Suntup to see the newly announced book, this thread came up as one of the first results. Since it's so prominent, and now encompasses so many more topics than just the original question, I think it might be fairer to the press to have a more neutral title.

Edit: I don't know if this is possible, though. Just a suggestion to the powers that be!!!

>391 grifgon:
Only the site administrator can change the thread title.
It would probably be a better idea to start a new thread to discuss Suntup books in general.

>390 astropi: 'This Southern gothic horror novel was originally published as a series in the 1980s. It is considered to be among the author’s finest achievements' was the clue in the recent announcement schedule. Definitely the whole series.

>391 grifgon: I agree with >392 wcarter:
There are in fact other Suntup threads, but even if I could (I can not) I would not change the title. I think ultimately the question about gimmicks and limitations is still at the heart of this thread, which I had absolutely no idea would be approaching 400 replies!

I fall into the category of people who have gotten into nicer versions of books during the pandemic and discovered Suntup after initially finding Folio Society. I have a fair few Folios now and a couple AGEs from Suntup (Let The Right One In and The Exorcist (terrible production on the art in this edition)).

I did take the plunge for the first time for a numbered with Johnny Got His Gun. I haven't read it but like the sound of it and thought it was the most handsome of the three editions if a little overpriced (honestly, why stick a dummy round on the front of the lettered edition?). It is interesting discussing this value in context of the discussion. I do not really like the rights system.

I feel like it could have been maintained for those aboard at the start and then just had a pool of Numbered which would make it to market each time (even if for a brief window of time). Essentially what I have paid for with JGHG is JGHG Book + Next Book Rights. Those rights will have different perceived value, and arguably you can add in some value for rights for future editions should you stay on. I feel this is problematic for a couple of reasons:

- Next book is rumoured to be Jaws. Highly collectable but not notably a great work of fiction (I haven't read this so feel free to correct me). So, I have rights to a book that I could probably sell for more than I paid but that I have no interest in owning. This feels like an odd position to be in and I could see why people essentially then just flip it. This would happen a little without rights but I think the problem is exacerbated with them.
- Next quarter info has been released and there is potentially a book I would like in that; it being Charlie and The Chocolate Factory, the last of the three. It is known that this is going to be popular because the AGE numbers have been bumped to 1,250, but to be in line for a numbered there you'd probably have to buy Jaws and what is likely to be an expensive Blackwater.

I imagine there are a lot of train riders who are just waiting for that payoff and having a significant number of transactional experiences along the way. That seems to lessen the experience for me. One of the things I have really enjoyed is the whole process of buying a nice edition of a book, unboxing it, reading it. The whole process is a joy - this system kills it a bit for me. I'm happy to join a bunfight for a version of a book I want if it is a fair fight, which I'm not sure it currently is.

It does seem like Paul really has a passion for what he is doing though, so all respect to him. I think he wanted to reward people who bought expensive books from him and maybe it has become more popular than he expected. I do worry about the FOMO aspect though and think it is too simplistic to say that he shouldn't care if he is selling 98% of his books very quickly.

Some Suntup Press books have greatly appreciated in value, but certainly not all. Look at this

Publication price was $3500.

I do wonder if there are lots of people just purchasing because they expect all of these to eventually be worth 5x or more? Also, I think there was a bit of a lull in selling out the numbered edition because Johnny Got his Gun is really different than other Suntup Press books - a welcomed addition in my opinion, but I think many Suntupers probably would disagree with me :)

The reason Suntup "sells out" so quickly is because of the numbered system, and maybe 20% of the AE's go to book dealers before the general public. Can't say that I regret not buying anymore after Blood Meridian. Noticed Suntup is going back to a book a month. It was just a few months ago that Mr. Suntup had a Q & A, and was defending his decision to release two books a month. I recall the reasoning being that growing the business was the right move at this time. What happened?

At least half the numbered books I have will lose me money if I try to sell them now. I am lucky that I can hold on to them for years, and wait it out. Maybe than, they will be worth what I bought them for. Ironically the cheapest Suntup's (AE's) actually can make you a profit.

I do however appreciate the work Mr. Suntup puts into getting rights to books other small publishers wouldn't touch. That's why I don't regret spending over $10,000 on his books. I wish we had more small publishers like him, even though I am not that big of a fan of his work.

>396 astropi: There was one seller who recently unloaded Auctioneer and Wolfen, in addition to the Legend listing you shared, at what ultimately were steep discounts. It's possible they rolled the dice on auctions and were hopeful of making a profit, or maybe they simply wanted to recoup whatever they could. With opening bids at just 99 cents, I'm guessing they simply didn't want these particular books and wanted to get back whatever they could. The fact that lettered rights weren't included also indicates that. And it should be remembered that the rights account for some of the cost/value of these books, at least when purchased from Suntup.

>375 cpg: It is definitely a hard and disturbing read. But it is an incredibly important read generally to understand the price of war and specifically for everyone who is a citizen of a country perpetually sending its young people off to war. I wish more of the 'Masters of War', to use Bob Dylan's phrase, read this book before they were put in positions to non-nonchalantly use the military to solve diplomatic issues. I wish it was required reading before enlisting to counter the "video game trivialization and glamorization of war and the messiness of violent death" recruitment strategy of our armed services.

I would really like to have a nice, hardback edition of this work and might have to "damn the budget" and pull the trigger on the AE. I noticed the counter raced up to 225 left of 750 but then stuck there for almost a week. Makes me wonder how reliable it is but if it is correct, I still have plenty of time to mull it over.

>399 jveezer: Agree completely. I almost went back to a numbered edition for this but the AE will meet my needs.

I've been putting a lot of thought into my collection and am at a point where I only want to keep fine editions that I'll go back to time and again such as philosophy, religious texts, true classics (or classics to me +)), or editions I love. That means I may be selling some Suntups. Will I read Hill House again? Probably. Will I read The Road and Blood Meridian again? Yes. Will I read Silence of the Lambs or Red Dragon again? Probably not.

Once again even the roman numeral version of the new book (JAWS) is printed offset and you have to pay almost 7000$ just for a fancy binding. I don't get it...

>401 Lukas1990: This one surprised me-

I like the look of the books a lot more than I expected. Fish Leather? I didn't even know that was a thing. Looks like a really fun edition and good looking edition. The print (already sold out) will be fantastic. The paper weight cracks me up. I'm tempted by that. I don't understand the roman numeral either but to each their own. I'm passing on this. I bought the movie tie-in paperback at a used book store when I was a kid (

>402 SDB2012: Check out Prototype Press' Me, Myself and the Monkeyface Eel for another fish leather book: half-bound in Monkeyface Eel leather, caught and skinned by the publishers with the assistance of the author. Fabulous press; fabulous book.

>403 jveezer: That's wild. Something about seaweed made papers too?

For some reason my message in 402 got cut. I went to edit and the whole message shows but when I post the last couple of sentences are cut out. Has anyone seen that before?

>401 Lukas1990: The key to understanding it is understanding that to many of those purchasing it's a "collectible object" (an objet d'art), as much as it is a book, if not more, and also, that most of Suntup's customers are not traditional fine press collectors, don't think like traditional fine press collectors, and don't always value the same things.

I fall somewhere in between. I love letterpress, too. But it's not a requirement for me if there are fine bindings and materials, a great design, great art, etc. Apparently, many others feel the same way.

I love the artwork in Jaws but it's not a very good book, unfortunately. Without the movie, it wouldn't really be interesting.

>402 SDB2012: re: fish leather: The Limited Editions Club edition of the The Flounder is three volumes, quarter bound in eel skin (it would be a standout edition if not for a few other quirks of the design). The eel skin is surprisingly tough and supple, while also being soft. Not sure how this compares to the salmon-based leather Suntup is using here.

Suntup’s email announcing “Jaws” went out this morning at 9:00 CDT, and all were gone before 2:30.

Well, I guess I'm not really in Suntup's total available market, haha. Not that they should worry about that too much the way most of their books sell.

I'm still mulling my first purchase because the only book I've ever been tempted by still has hundreds of AE copies left. At least if the counter can be trusted.

>407 abysswalker: I feel like some sort of anti-fish snob as I've ignored that book solely bassed on the title. Now that I've read the description of what it actually is, I want to read it. It looks like copies are available at a reasonable price.

>407 abysswalker: The price for that book was always lower than I thought it would be, considering the material. Not that I’ve come across a lot of eel skin bindings, or any for that matter, but intuitively I just felt it would be expensive.

>401 Lukas1990: I don't get it either. Perhaps they hope it will appreciate in value? Or, at that price, maybe the buyers have so much money it really doesn't matter...

Have to say that the numbered edition of Jaws looks great - nice cover, good art, still NOT "fine press" and not in the same league as the LEC Flounder. But, all that said, this is obviously the best edition of Jaws ever published - by the way, has anyone read the book?

Why the author of ‘Jaws’ wished he never wrote it
https://www.boston.com/culture/entertainment/2015/06/19/why-the-author-of-jaws-w...

>413 SF-72:

I did, but that was decades ago. As a kid I had fun with it, it was a suspenseful read. But re-reading the beginning as an adult, I've got a problem with how sharks are depicted as monsters and that the behaviour described isn't realistic at all. Jaws (the films probably more than the book) certainly plays a role in people having unrealistic fears, and sharks are already being killed on a far too large scale. That's a problematic background for me. So I didn't buy this one, although I liked the illustrations. I wouldn't enjoy the novel these days. I can understand if this isn't an issue for others, though.

>413 SF-72:
Fiction doesn’t have to reflect reality. “Frankenstein” doesn’t accurately reflect what scientists do, but it’s a fun read nevertheless.

>414 jroger1: Lol, was that a serious comment?

I’m sure if scientists were creating some kind of twisted life out of dead bodies many people would object.

The movie Jaws contributed to mass hysteria around sharks, despite the actual risk of being injured by one is about 1 in 3.7m according to the article. And nobody’s died of a shark attack in 80 years in MA.

>415 _WishIReadMore: "And nobody’s died of a shark attack in 80 years in MA."

Wikipedia says there was a shark attack fatality in MA less than 3 years ago.

>414 jroger1:

In this case the totally unrealistic fiction had nasty consequences for an animal species in real life. Otherwise it wouldn't bother me either. As WishIReadMore wrote, if scientists had drawn real-life consequences from Frankenstein people might see that book more critically, too. There's a difference.

>417 SF-72:
I understand the difference, but it isn’t the book’s fault. Benchley couldn’t have known, or Spielberg for that matter, the effect the story would have on some people. I blame the readers and audiences, not the author and director whose purpose was to present a scary story and who did their jobs admirably.

I still maintain that novelists are under no obligation to reflect the truth. That’s why it’s called fiction.

>415 _WishIReadMore: I highly doubt the author intended mass hysteria or the near extinction of sharks - humans are already great at killing every species around us, especially predators and It's a little unfair to blame jaws for that. Im not a fan of science fiction or fantasy but I don't see why jroger was mocked in any way. Fiction certainly doesn't need to reflect reality and I can't believe I'm defending jaws because I really dislike these types of books, but it's actually a clever money making premise. As for Frankenstein, the Nazi medical experiments show that scientists and doctors, like the rest of humanity, are capable of anything.

>418 jroger1:

Personally I'd disagree with "it isn’t the book’s fault. Benchley couldn’t have known, or Spielberg for that matter, the effect the story would have on some people." If your book or film makes people fear an animal species, you can guess what reactions will be based on how we've behaved before. There's a reason why most land predators are endangered or completely gone from so many areas of our planet. I can tell fiction from fact, I've informed myself about sharks and other potentially dangerous animals. A lot of people don't. I can't enjoy the way this book is written and I'm unhappy about its effects, as is the author himself, as can be seen in the linked article above. But as I wrote in the post that started this discussion: "I wouldn't enjoy the novel these days. I can understand if this isn't an issue for others, though." I'm nobody's moral conscience, but I don't read or buy a book I know I would actively dislike.

>419 Joshbooks1:

"As for Frankenstein, the Nazi medical experiments show that scientists and doctors, like the rest of humanity, are capable of anything."

A very big difference being that they did many of their experiments on living human beings, not corpses. That being said: Absolutely, humankind is capable of a lot of ugly behaviour.

Humans are definitely killing off species at incredible rates, and this is due to overpopulation more than anything else. I spoke to my colleague Paul Ehrlich not long ago about this, so take his word for it if not mine :)
https://ccb.stanford.edu/paul-r-ehrlich

As for Jaws, I think it would be an interesting read for the aforementioned reasons, basically I'm curious how he treated sharks. As I showed in the link to the article above (and there are numerous such others), Benchley regretted writing Jaws, but it was Spielberg that made people fear sharks. That said, I don't think I can blame Spielberg either, he was just trying to entertain people which he did, and for the record, it's a classic and to this day still thrilling movie. If we're going to fault filmmakers, I am going to blame people who purposely distort history such as Ava DuVernay's craptacular movie, "Selma" which purposely lies simply to make things looks "more dramatic"... I have to give a big middle finger to such people!
HISTORY MATTERS

Why You Should Care That Selma Gets LBJ Wrong
https://time.com/3658593/selma-lbj-history/

Anyway, as for Suntup, there is a lottery for the numbered edition, which I assume means at least some people jumped off the the numbered train. The AE sold out very quickly as people noted, and I think you can easily make the argument that the numbered edition is by far the best value. That said, I still think an open-order as opposed to this terrible rights system in place would easily be the best way to handle everything.

>421 astropi:

Thanks for sharing the link to this very interesting article. This kind of thing really shouldn't happen in a film like this.

I completely agree about the rights system at Suntup, too.

>421 astropi: Humans are definitely killing off species at incredible rates, and this is due to overpopulation more than anything else. I spoke to my colleague Paul Ehrlich not long ago about this, so take his word for it if not mine :)
https://ccb.stanford.edu/paul-r-ehrlich

This is admittedly getting tangential to the OP, but I would not expect a Professor of Population Studies to have expertise in other factors that might impact species extinction rates. An economist might look at the exploitative behavior of capitalism and the tragedy of the commons for example. Logically I can accept overpopulation is a driving factor, perhaps the overriding factor, but I don't think I would just take the word of a population scientist as having the definitive answer to a complex problem without further reading/study of other views.

You will be able to buy a numbered edition of Jaws for less on Ebay eventually. Once again haven't bought anything since Blood Meridian. Starting to worry a bit. I suppose I should be happy with all the money I am saving. LOL

>412 astropi: Read it when I was in third or fourth grade. I thought it was okay but no desire to read it again.

The Jaws ride at Universal Studios ruined any desire to watch the movie again. Not one of their finest...

>416 cpg: The article is a few years old. Regardless, as I’m sure you are well aware, the point was there was an 80-year stretch, on either side of the movie, where no one was killed by a shark attack.

>418 jroger1: How could it not be the movie’s fault? It was a spectacular success at what it set it to accomplish - make people terrified of sharks. Not terrified if two-headed aliens that don’t exist, but unjustifiably terrified of things they’ll encounter in their everyday lives.

You can’t call a piece of art fiction and imagine it would absolve you of the responsibility of its impact. And the writer certainly owned up to it.

In any case, it’s another sellout for Suntup, so congratulations to him for catering to what his fans want.

>426 _WishIReadMore: Yup, he really knows what his fans want, which is why I was dumbfounded when Johnny Got His Gun was announced. I don't know what made him choose that book, but I was not at all surprised that it was the slowest selling book in a long time, which goes to show that at least my taste and that of the Suntupians differs greatly! I was happy to order the AE of Johnny, and I considered the numbered edition but it wasn't letterpress and I didn't like the cover, so I went with the AE. That said, I do wish Suntup success, and hope he publishes more works that really deserve a lovely limited - along the lines of Johnny.

Back to my original conversation - Jaws paperweight made me laugh... just try and convince me it's not gimmicky!

>427 astropi: Haha, I thought so as well, but there are a lot of people clamouring for it as they missed out, same for the print.

I bought the print. Could be highly collectable that one methinks (I am not buying for investment) .. but, paperweights and statuetes are not for me

>427 astropi: i don't think it's very surprising. Paul publishes what *he* likes, not what he thinks his audience likes, he was very clear in this. It's just that his taste often overlaps with his fans' taste, but not always. This is why every now and then we get these books that don't quite 'fit', like Johnny or Simic poems, but if you keep in mind that that it's a single person's taste, it makes perfect sense.

I have absolutely no interest in reading Jaws, so I’m glad I let my number go with the previous announcement (Johnny). I haven’t even bought the AE. I was really tempting to do so though, solely based on the illustrations. I think they are STUNNING!!

Next month’s announcement is Blackwater without a shadow of a doubt. That one might be tempting though. Depending on the production details, I’d go either Numbered (if I get the chance) or AE.

>431 Nerevarine: Is Blackwater really that popular? I've seen several people excited over the prospects of that book. I'd never heard of it. I read the first 150 pages a couple of weeks ago. I think it's well written but the characters aren't compelling at all. It seems like he was going for what King did with Salem's Lot - the townspeople/town is the character. I do like it and will probably finish the book but it seems like an odd choice to me.

>430 filox: Nope. Willing to be that's entirely incorrect. I don't know a single publisher that publishes "what I want, not what audience wants" unless that publisher is filthy rich, and I'm willing to bet Suntup is not filthy rich. Also, Simic was not part of the "regular" books so no rights were involved - it was Suntup dipping their toes into other venues and of course that is welcome.

>432 SDB2012: I read the Centipede Press edition, and I thought it was one of the best gothic/horror stories I ever read. The "horror" element was kept at a minimum, and the writing was far beyond King - in my opinion of course. For the record, the CP edition had manufacturing defects, so if you're looking for it keep that in mind.

>433 astropi: Plenty of fine press publishers publish "what they want, not what the audience wants." That's one of the great things about fine press — it needn't exclusively, or even primarily, be a commercial venture. In corresponding with various fine press publishers, I always like to ask, "How do you choose what to publish?" and I've actually never heard anyone reference their audience at all. Some of the responses have actually been really beautiful, and I'm considering printing a little booklet of them.

Not sure if that's the case with Mr. Suntup, but I wouldn't dismiss the possibility out of hand. Who knows ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

>434 grifgon: I've also corresponded with quite a few fine press publishers, and NONE of them have ever said "we publish what we want, and customers be damned!" - yes, the publishers choose what to publish, but with the expectation that they will have patrons purchase enough copies to make the venture worthwhile, otherwise you'll find you no longer have a business. Successful publishers know what their patrons want, and in fact knowing what your patrons want is a necessity for nearly every single business on the planet.

>435 astropi:

When I search for "we publish what we want", Google reports 119,000 results. Certainly there's redundancy in their list and not all of the hits are on point, but some of them seem to be. I remember when I called up the Johannesens to buy some George MacDonald books, the co-owner who picked up the phone was out in the field herding sheep and had to hoof it back to the house to take my order and write down my credit card number. They're not getting rich off their venture, but they're publishing what they want. I think that Publish or Perish Press is another company that decided what it wanted to publish and isn't interested in publishing anything else. Liberty Fund, Crossway Books, and lots of other publishers have a POV which they are unlikely to violate in order to expand their clientele. These aren't Fine Presses though. Are Fine Presses more driven by the need to please an audience?

>435 astropi: There's quite a difference between "We publish what we want, and customers be damned!" and "We publish what we want, not what the audience wants." The issue is that the audience doesn't know what it wants, and it's one of the joys of fine press publishing to expand collectors' horizons. If publishers just followed what the audience wanted, we'd be printing "The War of the Worlds" on repeat. I for one am glad that Jan and Crispin Elsted recently published "The Poems of Jan Zwicky," Gaylord Schanilec undertook "Bokeh: A Little Book of Flowers," and the Foolscaps did "The Travels of Sir John Mandeville." If they had heavily weighed what their audiences wanted, I doubt any of the three would have been published. (As evidenced by how long these have taken to sell, despite the high esteem in which their creators are held. And, by the way, I don't think it makes them "unsuccessful" that these editions have taken awhile to sell. Success ≠ money.)

Having worked as a business consultant for three fine presses, an editor for one, and a publisher for another (with every financial incentive, god knows, to cater to the audience), I'm happy to report that in my experience audience reaction is usually a secondary concern. Which is all just to say: If Mr. Suntup says that he "just publishes what he likes," I'm inclined to believe him.

>436 cpg: "Are Fine Presses more driven by the need to please an audience?" Less, in my experience. Trade publishing, often including small trade publishing, is all about the $$$.

Id be inclined to add some nuance to the discussion - Suntup published what he wants, and makes the audience realize they (now) want it too. Perhaps this is implicit in some of the other posts, but it’s helpful to me to think about it this way.

The entire operation between the hints, the hundreds of posts of speculation, the custom artwork and binding, the rights. I’ve often seen people saying they’ve never thought about reading it but now they have and bought it, or they’re buying because it’s beautiful, or want to keep their collection complete, etc.

Of course the publisher has a lot of power in deciding what exactly to publish, but at the same time they know their choices will appeal to their patrons. I would argue that fine press publishers have to be more in-tune with their customers since they can not afford to have any lemons in their inventory.

I never bought anything from Suntup because he recommended it. I gladly skipped his vaunted poetry book The World Doesn’t End. So far his choices have been okay. Would have I bought Ania Ahlborn books if it wasn't for the rights system? Nope. Overall he has an okay lineup so far. I expect more Orwell, Philip K. Dick, and Cormac books from Suntup. Pretty sure Suntup has published books he really wasn't a fan of.

Has anyone ordered Replay? Thinking about the AE but seems overpriced for the binding. Book itself looks interesting.

>440 Undergroundman:
He wasn't planning to publish The Exorcist, purely did that as it was the number one fan request. He also listens to fans. Same with Dr Moreau. So yes, he mostly publishes books he personally wants to, but makes exceptions. But those exceptions also must be books he himself agrees with, just weren't planned - would never publish something like Twilight.

The Ania Ahlborn books were one of those I never heard about until Suntup, but read them now and really like them - can see why he chose them. Glad I have them in my collection.

>442 Raenas: I haven't read Seed yet but Brother is a great read. The Suntup treatment of numbered Brother is one of my favorites in that price range although I suspect the binding won't stand up long term.

>442 Raenas: Could Dr. Moreau be the Boaty McBoatface of the book world?

Supposedly it was the most-demanded book by customers, but the actual demand - if we assume that resale value is an indication of demand - has been tepid at best.

It cost $365 directly from the publisher, and has sold for as little as $232 via auction on eBay. That seller would have lost almost half of what they paid.

>444 _WishIReadMore:
Suntup’s artist gift edition of Dr. Moreau sold for $130 originally. The Easton Press DLE cost $395 and is currently being offered for $650. It seems to be a popular title to publish recently.

>445 jroger1: _WishIReadMore was talking about the Numbered edition of Moreau.

The Artist edition is indeed selling for $130 on the website (still in stock). But the Numbered was sold at $365 from the publisher, but is worth less on the secondary market currently. No doubt it’s the same for the Lettered edition.

No idea why it isn’t a popular title on the secondary market for Suntup, but is for Easton Press. I’m not familiar with neither the novel nor Easton Press.

I am seriously fed up with the materials used on some these numbered editions. Why the hell can't they just use traditional stuff that's been solid for decades? The case of the Neuromancer numbered edition is HORRIBLE. It's literally sticky. "Gimmicky" is the perfect word for that case.

Just got back from out of town and my numbered edition of Neuromancer was waiting for me. Unlike others I didn't find this edition to be horrible. I like the printed circuit board motif of the boards. Not overly impressed with the faux rubber (tight) capped slipcase but it was okay and the rubbing doesn't effect the book itself. Overall an over priced meh effort but nicer than my existing EP signed copy (not illustrated), so I'll keep it.

Is the circuit board a real circuit board? Can someone share pics? :)

>449 astropi: In the case of the Lettered edition, it is a “real” circuit board made specifically for the edition.

Has anyone ordered Blackwater? I’ve found a lot of internet reviews that make it sound like a soap opera. Always seek out reviews instead of reading some in advance if I can so I get the best reading experience :)

>451 RRCBS:

I've ordered it after reading the beginning online, and I found the illustrations very appealing, so I felt it was worth a try. I can't say anything more about the book though.

>451 RRCBS: I bought it to replace my Centipede Press set I sold a few years ago.

It's not unfair to say it's soap opera-ish, but I really think that works to the advantage of the story. McDowell does a great job capturing small town life in the American south with an intricate web of characters presented as real individuals with their own stories and desires, so when moments of horror occur they're all the more dreadful for it. It's still a story about a hungry lake monster, after all.

In spent the entire morning reading 452 messages on this topic and I'm quite happy with my edition of Jaws published by Easton Press.

I don't collect Suntup editions but do find fine editions of books, especially letterpress and have managed to pick some here and there from Thornwillow and No Reply Press, LEC.

It's an expensive hobby, addiction can pursue and ruin many, and I'm saddened to hear about those sad stories of financial ruin, spiralling out of control and FOMO (we had that in the Folio Society with their generous instalment plan) but now and then I have to remind myself to land firmly on the ground and remember that I don't really need to buy it (want and need discussion).

Although I am also guilty at times and in the past for collecting books en masse, without much financial regard, my life philosophy is, thus follows:

In essence, time is limited. Enjoy your life responsibly, knowing that you gained sufficient knowledge and happiness, whilst also maintaining reason, not faltering into madness, or "gentle madness" as Basbane calls it. There will always be another book.

Looks like the newly announced Charlie & The Chocolate Factory is printed letterpress for 3 of the 4 states with the 2 more expensive ones being printed on Rives Heavyweight moldmade paper:

https://suntup.press/charlie-and-the-chocolate-factory

As a non-subscriber who has never given business to Suntup, I regret missing out on the lettered edition of The Road. However, the AGE of this Willy Wonka release is charming—I love the exterior design! I know it's not fine press, but it is imaginative and suitably bombastic. I've placed an order.

>455 const-char-star: This is really cool! No wonder why it's one of Paul's favorite books. And it is selling very fast.

>456 PatsChoice: "Suitably Bombastic" — agreed!

And I love the golden tickets, how fun!

The numbered looks really good. Text is letterpress, 50 Blake illustrations, and looks like the best internal design of any Suntup Edition post Misery. The last is obviously my opinion only. wasn't too interested in this title initially but seeing it has changed my opinion.

First one that's interested me in a while, but I doubt I'll be able to secure a numbered edition.

>458 grifgon: Paul Suntup has done an excellent job of merging mainstream appeal with the spirit of the literature when it comes to the aesthetic of the binding. Unless you're looking for elegant minimalism, which definitely has its own strengths, Suntup may be the best in the world at capturing essence through display.

And Suntup AE prices continue to climb with this newest one at $185 - not too far off from some of the cheaper numbered editions produced in the not too distant past.

If cost of production makes up the bulk of the overall costs to produce a volume, and these books all use more or less the same materials & production (printed offset, dust jacket, slipcase, foil stamping), I find price per page to be an interesting metric to look at. Charlie & the Chocolate Factory comes in at a whopping $0.84 per page - 30 cents higher than the next highest (Island of Dr. Moreau at $0.54), and 35 cents higher than the similar page count Johnny Got His Gun ($60 difference in AE price), which was also not a great value. On the other hand, thicker volumes like Blackwater & Imagica look to be tremendous values relative to the other tittles produced in the past several years when using this metric.

Of course, page count is not what drives sales and unwavering demand for the better known titles means the market can bear such price hikes. But the steadily increasing prices Suntup can command for these very thin volumes continues to amaze me.

Also (IMO), this is a children's book that, like Jaws, is remembered as being better than it actually is because of a great movie. Another pass for me, and hoping he will get back to some better titles with more reasonable pricing in the near future.

>462 stumguy: Indeed - it's hit the point were I've become slightly nervous of Suntup publishing an edition of any of the titles / authors that are must-have for me in fine / limited editions.

I don't mean to tell anyone else how to LibraryThing, but don't y'all think it would be nice to start a new thread for a new Suntup book rather than needing to load this 450+ post monstrosity? If the book is worth talking about, of course.

That said, since I'm here, the Charlie release looks delicious. I'm not tempted due to budgetary and space trade-offs, but I'm impressed with how well it captures the spirit of the work and happy that he's still doing letterpress releases for the upper tiers in some releases. All four states are distinctive and unique, while still remaining in tune with the novel.

Now if only Paul would do Fight Club or American Psycho to this standard...

>464 abysswalker: Personally I'd rather have one concise thread than a new thread for every Suntup book, and since Suntup is releasing about one a month, that would be a lot of threads.

As for Charlie, I think it looks great! $1000 for the numbered edition is tough, for me at any rate. $200 for the AE is also a bit of a tough sell for me. All that said, I can't deny that the illustrations are lovely, and the binding is delightful! I think Suntup did a great job here, and yes, I still hate the outdated rights system. All that said, it will be interesting to see how this sells. I wouldn't be surprised if there are numbered editions that will open up. As for the lettered and Roman numeral editions, well, anyone paying $5000-15,000 for a book does not have to worry about money...

I must admit, I have not (yet) read Charlie, but I suspect stumguy to be correct, that the movie has colored people's perception of the book. I did read The Wonderful Wizard of Oz, and of course in my mind I had the movie, but the book was certainly nowhere near as enjoyable.

Glad I jumped in on Charlie AE before it sold out…

>465 astropi: that would be a lot of threads.

I, uh, fail to see the downside of that. We have these things called computers and they're really good at storing a lot of text and they don't mind how many threads there are.

On the human side, I'd rather see a lot of small threads that stick to one topic than one giant thread that discusses all the books. Small, on-topic threads are also nice for newcomers as they can just read about the book they care about and not wade through almost 500 posts (a fair amount of which is only tangentially related to books). Now, if I actually planned to buy this book I'd create a new thread, but as it stands I don't feel strongly enough for this particular book so maybe someone else can do the few extra clicks.

Artist's Editions (~850 copies if you account for copies reserved for secondary booksellers; $185 USD+T+S&H) are OOP in half a day. Has Suntup built up more niche appeal than the Folio Society with the quality press crowd? I'm distinguishing quality press from true fine press—not that Suntup is struggling there, either; they're selling "Roman Numeral" editions for fifteen grand and those will likely not make it past the rights of first refusal.

The AE limitation is now 1250, used to be 1000.
And there are now only 20 of Charlie still available.

>467 filox: I don't like numerous small threads. I think it clutters up message boards and people are less likely to care or reply. I don't see any downside to having a "big" thread, since as you said, we have these things called "computers" and you can quickly find information with them, and apparently they really don't care how "big" a thread is :)

ps If you want to ignore a thread, hit the X button and it vanishes!

>465 astropi: I'm going way back in (reading) memory but I remember loving the book and rereading it frequently. While I did see the 1971 movie at some point, I definitely preferred the book, as I almost always do but also probably because in those days I could read the book anytime I wanted but you had to wait for the networks to play the movie. So I don't know if I saw it in the theaters in '71, or some time after on TV. I haven't seen any of the other adaptations.

I'm not sure how I never read any Oz books as a young reader but definitely have the movie firmly in mind from watching it many times (was it annually that the networks would play it?). I don't know if I have it in me to read it to see how the iconic movie would colour my reading experience. I also saw the Broadway adaptation Wicked, which also might affect my reading.

I really like the looks of the Suntup edition. The illustrations look spot on and a good match in style to the book. But Johnny Got His Gun is still the only Suntup book I'm considering so far. And whose slower selling gives me time to save my pennies for the AE. It's a matter of reading interest and my personal budgetary constraint of only buying books I'm going to read. I definitely want to re-read Johnny but I'm not interested in a Charlie re-read. It's not really anything against YA books either as I'm in for both the upcoming Wind in the Willows editions. That being said, I would probably re-read Charlie if I happened to run across my childhood edition in my parent's basement...

Now the AE is sold out.

>472 wcarter:

Bet a big chunk of those went to book dealers.

I think it’s way better having a single thread, rather than a new one popping up every month. There’s a continuity to the conversation that would be missing in the latter case.

Too bad Blake’s art is a turnoff. Or maybe it’s a good thing, or I’d be tempted by the numbered.

1 big thread for me, then 2 when it's due, so on. Individual thread for each book would be sort of spam and a mess to me. Suntup has other channels also.

The Chocolate Factory DJ was also ripped off. The bonus content does seem interesting. Wonder if they will touch on the original Charlie, and the removal of the original Oompa Loompas from the first edition illustrations?

https://i.etsystatic.com/16541364/r/il/9dcbde/3338170083/il_1588xN.3338170083_qi...

>477 Undergroundman: I will PayPal you $15 if you post that in the Facebook group.

>477 Undergroundman: How embarrassing! I thought that was an original design...

>478 _WishIReadMore: That would be fake news !

>477 Undergroundman: "Ripped off" is quite a forceful assertion, especially considering that when presented with the challenge of doing a creative image of a candy bar, doing a partially unwrapped one, with a contrast of colors and textures, is hardly a novel or non-obvious idea.

Are the illustrations the same in the just announced Folio Society edition? It looks like the FS ones are black and white, even though the details section states "Black-and-white watercolour illustrations", whatever that means. I guess if you just use the black out of your watercolour set?

>482 jveezer: The Folio illustrations were originally colored, but now rendered in black and white. Suntup seems to be Blake’s same illustrations, but in color and with something like 70 extras from various previous editions.

>481 whytewolf1: So doing a candy bar was mandatory for the DJ? The "challenge" is a lot easier when you already have someone's artwork to copy.

>484 Undergroundman: I'm not huge on Suntup, but I can at least recognize that it's not an exact duplicate, and it's not a "copy" of a single piece of artwork - it's an update on (and addition to) a style that's been used to illustrate covers of this book for decades:







Sure, it's not some clever new concept - but unless it was the very first version (I'm not sure), neither is the one you linked.

Think of this as the latest in a series of cover artwork.