Should I cut uncut pages?

I've recently bought two fine press books where many or all of the pages were uncut. Yes, I know I'd need to cut them if I want to read them. But if I'm in no hurry to read them, does keeping them uncut add or subtract from the value? My thought is that it might add in that keeping them uncut protects those pages from dirt. Thoughts?

>1 SteveJohnson:

Steve:

It is not clear what you mean by "uncut". Do you mean that the edges of the pages are roughened and slightly irregular or do you mean that the pages are actually fused together and have not been properly separated so that the book can be read?

If the pages need to be separated and remained fused together at one or more of the text block edges it may, in a perverse way, add slightly to the value of the book because it indicates the book may not have ever been handled or read. Otherwise, the pages should be gently separated with a paper knife specifically made for this purpose. It can easily be obtained from Talas Online (Brooklyn, NY) - the premier source in the United States for fine bookbinding supplies, e.g. leathers, marbled papers, cloth for book bindings, etc.

https://www.talasonline.com/Bookbinders-Knife

Introspection suggests this might depend on the book's age. For an older book, I'd see uncut pages as a sign the book wasn't read and probably not handled much--a likely indication of a volume in nice condition.

For something very recent, such as the Thornwillow Great Gatsby, I know the book will be in nice condition because it's virtually brand new. Then my main concern is that cutting the pages will take time and, more importantly, involve a risk of permanently damaging the book. I'd gladly buy a (successfully) pre-cut copy where someone else took that risk.

>3 ubiquitousuk:

I was, of course, assuming these books were published years ago. If it is a recent edition or if the private press is still in existence the book should be returned. The private press can then either issue a new book if it is not OOP or they can safely cut the pages themselves.

>3 ubiquitousuk: I recently read my copy of the Thornwillow Gatsby, and although I'm a veteran of cutting pages along the vertical, I found myself thoroughly vexed by the uncut top edge. I did a rather messier job of it than I care to admit. Wince-inducing.

>6 SebRinelli: I hear you. I still resent their decision to leave them uncut, practically because of a joke

>3 ubiquitousuk:
>5 gmacaree:
>6 SebRinelli:

This is inexcusable. I would have promptly returned the book to Thornwillow Press, insisting that they cut the pages cleanly and safely. If they were unable to do so I would have insisted on a full refund.

>1 SteveJohnson: I have purchased several press books with uncut pages in the past and have successfully cut them using a very thin palette knife. I would suggest leaving them uncut until you are ready to read them, then cut them open very carefully. Uncut top edges are the trickiest and need to be dealt with slowly and carefully. I also have a book or two where the previous owner messed up in cutting the edges and it is ugly.

If a book is untrimmed at the bindery, that is, the edges have not been cut back to remove the folds at the top edge and to even up the fore- and bottom edges, then the pages are considered uncut when you get the book and must be opened to be read. If the edges are not trimmed, it is to preserve the deckle found on handmade papers. Whether the deckle should be preserved or not is another issue entirely and has its own set of controversies. Machine made papers have clean edges. If the paper does not have deckle edges and the text block has not been trimmed at the bindery, that is, IMHO, an affectation and should be discouraged.

Edited to clarify things.

>7 dlphcoracl: I can’t find the email, but I’m fairly certain they offered to cut the pages for you prior to shipping if you asked

>7 dlphcoracl: >9 jsg1976: I believe they offered something like that, yes. I foolishly thought that a top-edge cut would be as simple an operation as a fore-edge; the fault when it went worse than expected is mine alone.

>5 gmacaree:

I have some older books that also have uncut top edges. Really takes the fun out of opening pages.

>7 dlphcoracl: In Thornwillow's defence, they do clearly advertise on the website that the pages will be uncut. That was enough to convince me to wait until I'm ready to re-read the book and then enter the market for a nice LEC copy instead.

>11 MobyRichard: Same. Does anyone have any advice with regard to cutting top edges?

>9 jsg1976:
>10 gmacaree:
>12 ubiquitousuk:

I didn't realize Thornwillow mentioned this and offered to cut the pages. In that instance they cannot be faulted. If you made a poor choice and had it sent without the pages cut at the top edge, order the paper knife from Talas Online (link above) which will make this chore much easier and safer.

Frankly, I can’t remember if I’ve ever read about this offer. If I have had, I would never have cut the pages myself, even though I have some experience in doing that.

The Kickstarter campaign advertisement at least suggests that they didn’t make any offer in this regard:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/thornwillow/the-great-gatsby/description

What are the thoughts about the Arion Press Edition of Gatsby on this forum? What would be a fair price on the secondary market?

>11 MobyRichard:
>13 ultrarightist:

Suggestions for doing this properly:

1. Get the paper knife from Talas Online. Period. Do not use a scalpel, your VISA credit card, etc. Use a professional tool.

2. Be VERY careful when starting to cut at the corner of the page. Once you open the very edge, insert the edge of the paper knife as far in as it will go and then do the cutting as you pull it back in one smooth motion. I do NOT cut when I move the blade forward, only when I withdraw it backward towards me.

3. Keep the cutting edge of the paper knife angled a few degrees (2-3 degrees) upward rather than keeping it perfectly flat. This helps keep a bit of tension on the knife edge and prevent it from "wandering" into the page itself.

4. At the very end, as you are approaching the book spine, do not try to cut the last 1/16th of an inch. This often results in a tear and it will not affect the page-turning as you read the book.

Been there, done that - with the same initial errors some of you are experiencing.

>16 dlphcoracl: Thank you very much for the tips.

I have a question about #2. How exactly do you cut the corner of the page ("open the very edge")? Do you insert only the tip of the knife (say the first 1/2") to do so?

>17 ultrarightist:

No. I start cutting with the edge at the middle of the knife but the corner is very fragile and prone to tear. I do not have any tricks here, just a warning to proceed slowly and carefully.

I have some Kelmscott books that are still uncut and will remain so as well as some other books from 100-200 years ago. As >Glacierman mentioned above there were reasons for them to be issued that way at the time like preserving the deckle. I would never consider doing that with a contemporary book even if I somehow had the resources to produce a book printed entirely on handmade sheets.

The reason you would have uncut edges on fore edge and (hopefully) head of the book is because they were printed in quarto or octavio and then folded down to create the book sections. Very few contemporary printers are using big presses capable of such large sheets anymore.

A thin tool to cut the pages can be purchased for sure but most binders I know, myself included, use some sort of homemade tool, most frequently a simple suitable table knife. Of course, practice makes perfect and when in doubt have someone else do it!

>18 dlphcoracl:

Thanks for the tips.

I do have a paper knife. Doesn't make cutting top edge any easier. No issue with side edge.

>19 DWPress:
I have already mentioned several times elsewhere on LibraryThing that I am using a simple playing card to cut pages, and it has worked very well for me and is the safest way of separating pages that I know. It was suggested by Robert A. Wilson in his book "Modern Book Collecting".
I think that your use of a dull dinner knife to cut pages of a book is similar to the idea of a playing card.

>20 MobyRichard:
The bottoms of pages usually do not require separation. If both the side and the top of the pages need cutting, I suggest cutting the sides first. You can then easily insert whatever device you are using in between pages to separate the top, too.
There is absolutely no reason to try to cut a small hole on a corner of pages with a knife.
This is just my experience...

>21 booksforreading: I too use a playing card but it doesn't work well for the top edge, for that I have to switch to a knife and it's still a pain.

>21 booksforreading: >23 kdweber: what benefit does the playing card give?

>23 kdweber:
OK. I guess I have been lucky that in my books the top edge was not as hard to separate as a side one. I understand what you are saying, and I hope that I will not need to deal with such a situation in the future.

>24 bernsad:
Cutting with a sharp knife is more prone to mistakes in cutting to a slightly wrong direction or other damages. A playing card can separate the pages, especially in mould-made or hand-made papers, just as easily, but it is much safer for the pages in my experience.

Never use a sharp knife. Way too easy to cut into the page.

>24 bernsad:

First off, the playing card must be COATED, to retain some sharpness as well as glide. Even a coated playing card will get too dull after a few uses. I was able to do a complete Dickens collection in two cards. The thicker the paper, the faster your card will deteriorate.

In my experience, a coated playing card gives you much better control and is way less likely to 'slip' and cut the page in too chaotic a manner - ie: not perfectly straight. The control is so good, I can usually also correct poor cutting jobs other may have done prior to my cuts (a trickier endeavor, I assure you).

You must have patience and go slowly, and I find pulling up works better than pushing down, usually (unless, of course, we are talking about the bottom edge)

I have probably 'opened' 30 volumes or so, but generally with non-handmade rag paper. For that, another member may be better suited to comment.

I still prefer a thin, long-bladed pallette knife. It leaves a slightly feathered edge to the cut pages and is readily controlled.

Yep, I mean the signature has been folded, but the pages uncut. I DO have a bone knife, from Talas, so I can cut them, but I'm nervous about damage. One book, however, is not even sewn, i.e., the signatures are just laid into a case with covers that are less sturdy than a normal book cover. It is in French, which I do not read, so I'm pretty certainly going to leave that one uncut. It was published in Paris in November 1945, so I'm assuming keeping it in unread condition would add to the value.

Many thanks. I have done a few myself and been generally appalled at how easy it is to tear the paper. Which is why I was wondering if it is something to avoid if possible. But if you want to read the book, you have no choice.

>30 SteveJohnson: Your assumption is correct in this case. I'd keep it as is were it mine. The French tended to publish books in that state assuming the owner would have it bound to taste. Hey, they're French.

>26 booksforreading: & >28 EclecticIndulgence:, thanks for the replies.

My first uncut book. The first page I had to cut. And this happened. I foolishly used a plain sheet of paper for cutting and soon had to regret it. Fortunately I've managed to cut other pages pretty well using photopaper.

Can someone comfort me that it is not so bad? At least the text and woodcut were not affected. :/
Should I cut that little piece of paper off?

>34 Lukas1990: Sorry, I know how this feels.

Don't cut it off. Use a teeny-tiny spot of glue to keep the sliver attached to the page so it doesn't flap open.

>34 Lukas1990:

I'd repair it with mending tissue. Lineco makes it: https://www.lineco.com/pressure-sensitive-mending-tissue.html and it's available at any good art supply or craft store.

It's thin, transparent, and strong, and is also reversible and archival.

>34 Lukas1990: Here's another link to Document Repair Tape & Mending Tissue:
https://www.preservationequipment.com/Catalogue/Conservation-Materials/Labels-Ta...

Were the other page edges deckle edged or straight cut?

A Deckle Edge Ripper could be used to replicate a deckle edge. Linked in the image below is the product page from Ratchford Ltd. There are similar products available from Amazon and other art suppliers.

ETA: A similar topic on the GMD forum: https://www.librarything.com/topic/337307

Thank you all for the tips. Unfortunately it will be much harder for me to find these products as I'm in Lithuania (Europe). Will probably have to order them online.

I thought it won't be hard to separate those pages (the top edge was uncut). When I used a sheet of paper at the beggining it cut through the paper well, but soon I've noticed that the paper was torn. What a disaster!

>37 mr.philistine: "Were the other page edges deckle edged or straight cut?"

They are deckled.

>38 Lukas1990: The links provided above are from UK-based suppliers so hopefully cheaper to ship within Europe. Also check https://www.hewitonline.com/ for clip-point knives, etc..

I'm a reader so any uncut book that comes into my library is going to get cut eventually. And I have had some tears (and tears, pun intended). While it upsets me when I am careless sometimes it just happens. I have a set of Balzac that is over 100 years old and all of them are uncut on the top edge every few pages. I cut them as I pull them off the shelf to read. The paper is pretty thin so I do tear it once in a while, and since that particular set does not have a deckled edge, I usually leave the torn paper hanging precariously there. If the page was deckled like the photo Lukas1990 shows, I would probably remove it (rather that attempt a repair or leave it hanging and potentially have it rip more) as it would somewhat "blend" in with the deckled edge.

I've used mending tissue, too . . . ve-ry care-ful-ly.

Another vote for the tissue, which is magical stuff.

I, like others here, purchased a copy of The Defense of Gracchus Babeuf (Gehenna Press) from the artist's widow. It is uncut, but also unbound: the folded signatures are simply laid into the cover unsewn in the French fashion. This leaves me with the dilemma: do I cut the pages, or do I disassemble and unfold them one by one for reading, before folding them back together in their uncut state? I'm leaning towards the latter option because I would be upset if I made a pig's ear out of it (quite likely given my other experiments with anything requiring manual dexterity).

>42 ubiquitousuk: I read my copy of Gracchus Babeuf as soon as I got it, a good read, and cut all the pages. This won’t prevent the work from being bound in the future. There are no single pages. If there were, the pages would come out of a sewn binding when cut.

I've contacted a local specialist and he said he could fix it with tissue, but I'm not sure if that's a better idea than just cutting the paper off. There's not only a tear but also the very top of the page wasn't cut good enough and it misses some paper. Even if the tear is fixed with tissue the page top still wouldn't look OK.

The Lenco stuff is ok but any thin archival eastern paper of the appropriate color will work just as well. Use paste, not PVA. A simple paste can be made from fine wheat or rice flour.

There's a one inch long tear in the middle of a page in one of my older books. I have some very high quality almost invisible special tape to repair the tear. The question is: should I use the tape on both sides of the page?

>1 SteveJohnson: Open them!

>13 ultrarightist: I do the main of it with the book shut, as this seems to help negate the problem of not slitting exactly along the top. Then, I just go in and carefully cut the tiny section near to the spine with the book open so I can see that I’ve cut it all the way.

>34 Lukas1990: I’ve seen far worse! If it reeeeeally hurts your feelings, get a book conservator to fix the tear with some super-thin ‘onion skin’ repairing paper. I have seen such mends done incredibly well!

But if it was mine I would just leave it. It’s not so bad.

>48 ChestnutPress: Good tip, thanks

>46 Lukas1990: I personally don't like tapes. The edges are too sharp. I prefer to tear pieces from sheets of Japanese kozo mending paper and I use wheat paste to adhere. If the tear is such that the edges of each side of the tear overlap, I do not use any kind of mending tape/paper.

Rather, I make a slightly diluted solution of PVA (Jade 403 in my case) and apply with a needle to one of the edges of the tear, bring the edges together, sandwich the page between silicone release paper or wax paper, close the book, and place under a weight such as a large book, leaving it to dry for several days. Such a repair is nigh on invisible when dry. Repair on one side only.

I used this method on my copy of the 1798 edition of Tyrwhitt's Chaucer and I have a hard time finding that repair today.

If one does use a mending paper, the reason you tear a piece out rather than cut it is to create a feathered edge on the kozo which will blend in when applied. A cut edge sticks out like a sore thumb.

>51 Glacierman: Too difficult for a person with no skill at all...

>49 ChestnutPress: Thanks, your comment made me feel better. This is a page from my most valuable book which was featured here - https://www.librarything.com/topic/341462#7826518. You can only imagine my feelings as a very young collector finding this book which is worth thousands of dollars for just a fraction of that price from an established Canadian bookseller, then trying to cut those uncut pages one by one and making such mistakes... Now I would just leave it alone until I'll get a good knife. Sounds like an idea for a Christmas present.

>53 Lukas1990: NOT A KNIFE!
Use the edge of a plastic playing card to cut the pages, or a similar dull edge.

>54 wcarter: A playing card didn't work well for me for some papers. It was good for other papers. A professional tool should be the best option, I believe.

>52 Lukas1990: Not that difficult, really. Just takes a little time. I wouldn't claim to be a skilled person, no more so than the next guy.

>54 wcarter: Yes, such as this palette knife. The edges are thin, but dull. Works like a charm for me.

>53 Lukas1990: It’s not so much a mistake as just bad luck, mate. I still occasionally mess up the odd opening (fortunately nothing drastic so far), and just resign myself to it having happened as ‘one of those things’. I fully understand it being upsetting, particularly when it’s a particularly choice volume, but I still stand by my statement that your tear isn’t too bad.

I took a little course in conservation and repair. One thing that always stuck with me was the (now) obvious statement, "Left alone, tears do not get better; they only get worse." For a reasonable fee, some very, very competent and careful conservators could mend (or at the very least stabilize) that tear. I'm not familiar with specialists on the continent, but the ones in the States are pretty efficient at fixing books sent via the mail. Of course, it's your book, your money, etc. and whether to have it professionally tended to has a lot to do with how much it is worth to you to have it mended. Certainly, if the time came to sell a very valuable book, you want to have had a professional fix it.