Arion - Sea of Cortez

So Arion announced their next publication officially last week. The email they sent out is here:

80 years ago today writer John Steinbeck set out from Monterey, California with his friend, marine biologist Ed Ricketts, and a small crew on an epic six-week, 4,000-mile voyage to survey marine life in the Sea of Cortez. Their exploration resulted in the literary classic considered by many to be Steinbeck’s most important work.

This week, we at the Arion Press begin production on a limited edition artist book of Sea of Cortez.

Our edition will be offered in two variant bindings. The Deluxe copies will incorporate planks salvaged from the famed Western Flyer trawler—the very boat on which Steinbeck and Ricketts traveled. (Restoration of the historic boat by the Western Flyer Foundation is currently underway in Port Townsend, Washington, with an expected launch date in 2021.)

Arion’s edition will feature multiple boxwood engravings of marine specimens (some pictured below) by renowned engraver Richard Wagener, in addition to an illustration of the Western Flyer itself. The total edition will be limited to 250 copies, and new and current Subscribers will be given the first option to purchase Deluxe copies.

Very interested in the non deluxe copy of this. The engravings by Wagener shown in the email are fantastic. They're of a spiny lobster and a starfish. The starfish especially is impressive from what I can see. Here is a link to the images on instagram: https://www.instagram.com/p/B9pmQa0Bys3/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

This is looking like a special edition form AP.

I'm interested but have some doubts as to even the non-deluxe copy's affordability. It is Arion, after all

I would definitely be interested in this one but the standard edition will probably be out of my reach at this point. But I'm encouraged by the choice of title and the direction they are headed with their talented artisans. Seems they are righting the ship.

>3 jveezer: All it took was Andrew Hoyem stepping back?

>2 gmacaree: I like to plan that I will have the funds whether or not it's true :) .

>4 Sorion: Didn't hurt. ;)

Got some news about this today. Still no word on price, so I'm assuming something that only the very rich will be able to afford. Hey, Arion is very expensive to being with, but I have a feeling we're talking many thousands for Cortez.

>6 astropi: Gotta be 3k for the Deluxe version. They’re putting way too much into it for this to be less. Unless the new AP has really turned a page.

This has appeared on the Arion site - https://www.arionpress.com/store/sea-of-cortez-by-john-steinbeck-and-ed-ricketts...

Another reason I don't collect Arion Press. Waaaaaaay out of my league. I can't even afford the unbound sheets. I've got champagne tastes on a soda water budget.

Woof! Wow.

Huh, deluxe already sold out. Does Arion operate on an airliner model where they make their money primarily from first and business class rather than economy?

I'm honestly amazed Arion is still in business with these prices. They are either massively subsidized or have almost no costs (which I don't really believe). Maybe someone who's more knowledgeable about their business can explain how they stay afloat?

Real classy, that whole starting "From $400" bit...they don't tell you until you change the dropdown values that's the price for the stand-alone print. $400 for a shitty print!

>11 wongie:

Deluxe probably all went to subscribers.

>12 filox:
I assume they mostly sell to subscribers (30% discount, still insane $$$$).

>13 MobyRichard: For just over the price of two of those prints one could buy Endgrain Editions 5 with around 90 more of Wagener's works!

>13 MobyRichard: Hmm, you might be on to something. Deluxe sold out, and assuming the worst case that they sold all of them to their subscribers at 30% off, 40 * 3360 = $134k. Probably they can cover the costs of the book with $134k, and then the rest they sell on top is profit (at least that's how I'd do it). They probably price the book so that they can recover the costs from the number of books they *know* they will sell... Well, good for them I guess, but I suppose I won't be buying any Arion Press any time soon.

I might have been prompted to consider it for $400...
I am sure that Arion Press has serious reasons for their prices, but...

>12 filox:

"They are either massively subsidized or have almost no costs....." .

On the contrary, because they have a VERY large staff of eight whereas nearly all other private presses consist of 1 or 2 people, their costs are much higher. Arion has many mouths to feed which is why their prices are seriously out of line when compared to top-tier presses such as Barbarian Press, Foolscap Press, St. James Park Press, the new(er) Nomad Letterpress (Pat Randle), etc. To belabor the obvious, the following books and prices illustrate this:

1. 2020 Vision by Nomad Letterpress. The deluxe edition with separate portfolio of ALL the wood engravings cost 770 GBP ($1000) at pre-publication prices.

2. The Travels of Sir John Mandeville by Foolscap Press. $1,200.

3. Endgrain Editions 5: Richard Wagener (deluxe edition). C$1,500 or about $1,130 USD. With the 30% discount to subscribers (similar to the Arion Press subscriber arrangment) this now become just under $800!!

4. An Albion in the Antarctic by St. James Park Press. This book has a nautical adventure theme quite similar to 'Sea of Cortez.' IIRC, the pre-publication price (in 2018) was about $600 or so and this book is stunning.

All of these editions as stated above are far superior to the production values of the the standard edition of 'Sea of Cortez' which costs $2,200 for non-subscribers and $1,540 for subscribers.

Makes no sense, whatsoever.

Odd decisions are made at the Presidio.

>17 dlphcoracl: Good to see you sir!

>17 dlphcoracl: Exactly my thinking.

>16 booksforreading: I'm with you. My first thought was wow a very reasonably priced standard edition for non-subscribers, then, oops... $400 only for a single print! At least we don't have to worry about this book selling out quickly.

Unfortunately for my wallet, this one hit all my buttons—one of my top five favorite authors, one of my favorite wood engravers, and a subject that brings me back to childhood dreams of being a marine biologist and summer camps off the coast of California. As a subscriber, I had the chance to pre-order the deluxe a few weeks ago, which I've done.

In terms of price, yes, it's crazy expensive no matter how you slice it. However, to compare, Mad Parrot Press' The Wind in the Willows is 2K USD, and Saint James Park Press' 1984 is 2,284 GBP, both for the standard. With discussions about value for money falling in both the Suntup thread and in recent Folio Society Devotee threads, I have a feeling that the price the market will bear is only going up, no matter how much we disapprove. Finally, it is worth noting that many of the examples of lower cost books mentioned above are far shorter than the 240 pages that the Sea of Cortez will be.

>20 mnmcdwl: Really glad to hear this was made for you! Especially glad to hear that with those perfect circumstances you managed to get the Deluxe edition. You’re who I hope those sort of editions go to.. those who truly appreciate them.

That said, people would forgive one off pricing if it wasn’t part of a larger pattern. And this is.

I was excited to see "from $400" and then laughed when I got to the actual book price.

Yup, same here. I saw $400 and thought "oh wow, this is nice, they're making the book affordable!" then I found out the $400 was FOR THE PRINT ONLY



These sheets better have belonged to Steinbeck himself, otherwise I fail to see how they can charge nearly $2k for them :/

>12 filox: Don't know honestly.

>17 dlphcoracl: How can you say those editions are "far superior" without even seeing the AP Sea of Cortez? I think the price is ridiculous, but that says nothing about the quality, which quite frankly I'm sure is wonderful, just not affordable to anyone other than the rich.

>23 astropi: You need to be seriously rich if you don't care about price/quality ratio at all!
I was really happy to see their recent output starting with Frankenstein and I was on the fence to subscribe to get the books down to what I consider the correct prices. However, the asking price for Sea of Cortez appears to be way out of proportion and makes the choice easy again.

>17 dlphcoracl: Thanks for bringing the delightful St James Park Press to my attention. Any comments on their King Arthur? Sadly, their Hercules seems to be gone already. What a blow to miss that one.

In defense of one criticism of the AP, the $400 carrot is probably not their doing. I have the same problem in my tea business, as my point of sale platform takes the lowest price item as the one to use for the "...from $x" banner. So instead of using the price for a standard 2oz pouch of tea as I would like, it uses the much smaller sample price. So many of us small businesses can be accused of this same "bait and switch" but in most cases, it's probably just unavoidable. We just don't code up our own POS platforms, we use what's available. Especially when you're a company of one person; or a handful that include no software developers in AP's case.

On another note, the pricing is also probably inflated by the fact that many presses rely on institutional investors or subscribers. Yale library or the Huntington Library probably don't even bat an eye at Arion Press' prices. And the shame is that those books probably never get any love from actual book loving humans. I'd love to have this one but way out of my price budget as most private press is these days.

Pet peeve: it looks like no spine title on the book. C'mon...

>24 SebRinelli: I totally agree about price/quality ratio, I was just trying to say that I bet the craftsmanship is top-notch... but of course price is a serious issue for most of us and therefore such a shame that this price is so incredibly high as to make it unaffordable.

By the way, I believe Moby Dick was $1000 originally, and if that is the case, today it would cost over $3500. Curious, if Moby Dick had come out today, would each of us eagerly pay that kind of money, or would we be saying that it's way overpriced? Granted, Mody Dick is THE American novel and had 100 wood engravings while Sea of Cortez has 6 woodblock engravings which certainly makes one think of the old adage "oh, how the mighty have fallen".

>25 jveezer: Makes sense, thanks for the info. Oh, and what tea would you recommend while reading a beautiful Greek tragedy?

>20 mnmcdwl:
Congratulations on your purchase! I am sure that you will enjoy the book! Please do not pay too much attention to our negative comments, and I hope that they will not spoil your enjoyment! I wish you to get a lot of pleasure from this book for many years to come!

On the other subject that you touch: I personally think that $3000+ for "1984" would NOT be justified for me, regardless of how important this novel is in English literature. This is not a $3000+ worth of importance for me to spend such money on this book, magnum opus or not from a press.
The $2000 Wind in the Willows from Mad Parrot's Press is somehow a different story to me. First of all, it is 1/3 cheaper than "1984". I know the work of Chad Pastotnik well, and I know that he will do an amazing job. The binding, illustrations, individual care, and overall design of the book will be on the highest level - a very different level of presentation and implementation altogether than the book under discussion in this thread. I know this without seeing the See of Cortez, because I own several AP books, and I know what presentation they deliver consistently.

People who are excited about the "1984" project will have the same justifications for their purchase as I provide for the WITW, and, doubtless, after they receive their copies, they will feel certain that the cost was absolutely justified.
Additionally, both of these books are much more limited in the number of copies than the Sea of Cortez, because of how many copies it is physically and financially possible/reasonable for Mad Parrot Press and Saint James Park Press to produce. These limitations are NOT artificial.

Regarding the Travels of the Mandeville by Foolscap Press, please let's remember that each illustration there is hand colored. Overall design and production of this book is so awe-inspiring that this book is just in a very different class from the Sea of Cortez we are discussing here (in my opinion, of course).

Another way of thinking about differences between books mentioned in the post 17 + your post and the Sea of Cortez is to think of how fine music instruments have been produced through centuries. There is generally a huge difference in quality of sound of an instrument that was made individually by a distinguished maker who is doing all of the labor himself/herself and instruments that were produced in small workshops/factories where many craftsman are working on producing their instruments, by dividing labor, etc.
Arion Press is like a small factory for letterpress books, while the other fine presses that we have mentioned here are all individual artists working on producing each copy from start to finish.

>27 booksforreading: this book is so owe-inspiring

Is a superb malapropism for this topic :-)

These prices are well out of my league, though it's still interesting to read about these ultra high-end presses. The book I am waiting for at the moment, though, is Lyra's Stardust, which on the face of it seems quite superior to Sea of Cortez in terms of materials used and is a small fraction of the price. What am I missing here? Are Arion charging so much just because they can or do the production costs somehow justify it?

>28 Levin40: Sorry for my typo! I have just corrected it!

>27 booksforreading: It's interesting you compare 1984 from St James and Mad Parrot's WITW. I have exactly the opposite opinion. 1984 is a seminal work of literature, and consistently ranks in the top influential novels of all time. And personally, I find the work very relevant today, given everything that's going on in the world. WITW, on the other hand, is far less known and far less influential. So from this point of view, I think there's no comparison really.

I also believe 1984 will have much higher production values. James is putting in all these really nice features like illustrating posters from the novel itself, or adding principles of newspeak to the margins. He really goes the extra mile to convey the oppressiveness of the 1984 society to the reader. WITW looks really nice, but I don't see anything extra beyond nice illustrations and good pressmanship. Also note that James prints on a manual press, though I'm not sure what press Chad uses. The paper will also be of higher quality from what I can tell (e.g., posters will be printed on paper from mills that are not even operating any more). So I guess this is a long winded way of saying that I'm much more excited about 1984 than I am about WITW. But please don't take this as me dissing WITW. From what I can tell, it's going to be a really wonderful book that I'm sure you'll enjoy.

>30 filox: that's an interesting point. I do agree that 1984 is more influential and well known. However, between the two, I personally like WITW more, and I would argue it too is a seminal work, even if not as prominent as 1984.
I don't think that you can judge the value, including monetary value, of a book simply by how well known it is - although of course there is some correlation. All that said, I won't be able to afford either work, so I expect to see pictures from those that purchase said books!

Hello! I have not been a member of this forum so far but have periodically looked at the postings as I've started to collect fine press books. Given all the negative views about Arion Press I thought it may be useful to share my opinion as a relatively new collector, and why I collect their books. I am not sure it will change anyone's mind on this forum, but perhaps will be of use for those trying to decide whether to buy any of the Arion press books. I'll also try to frame where I see Arion press vs some other presses currently.

First of all, why collect fine press books at all?
For me, this started with a thought process about "shelf space". I read about 50 books a year. Mostly on Kindle. I think books are important. So I started to think about a barbell of "important" physical books on the shelf vs more user-friendly books on kindle (i have about 400 e-books overall). What makes a book important? Content of course, but also the physical execution of the book, the thought process and the passions that went into its making. My first fine press book was Lakeside Press' Moby Dick - and once you see it/handle it you understand what fine press books can be.

From there - I've now bought books from Tallone Editore, Yolla Bolly Press, Arion Press (as a subscriber), Barbarian Press (subscriber), St James Park Press, Pennyroyal Press, Thornwillow Press, Whittington Press, Golden Cockerel Press (Four Gospels), LEC (Seven Years in Tibet), Suntup Press etc etc. So I have some opinions on these publishers, albeit perhaps not very sophisticated ones. One thing to note - with all these fine press books that I bought - the dominant space on the shelf is still occupied by Folio Society books. These fall in a very happy medium of high quality/interesting & thoughtful design and content at a reasonable price.

Is there "investment value" in collecting fine press books?
I see a lot of discussion of "value" on this site in discussing which books are better value vs others (with the argument that Arion Press falls short vs others). Humbly - I think this is somewhat misplaced. I don't think there is "investment value" in fine press books at all. The World basically does not care about these books - if it did these would all sell out given 6 bn+ population and the fact that these books tend to be very high quality in

>32 dmitrip: Did you receive or order the Sea of Cortez? I would love to see some pictures and thoughts from someone that purchased the book. You are right that Arion Press does get a lot of "bad press" in this forum. I think some of it is misplaced - for instance, I don't think it's reasonable to say their production value is inferior to other fine presses, at least from what I've seen their production value is sky high, but unfortunately so is the price for this new book.

.. print runs of sub 500. So this ends up being a very niche hobby. I think you end up collecting these books as a primary subscriber because you care about the craft and the people that make it. Frankly you are paying to keep these guys in business, and for their profit margin and labour costs. From a "value" perspective secondary/auction sales almost always look better than primary ones. This is because whatever the production costs there were, the auction market does not care, and the price is set by the marginal buyer.

That said - I think deluxe print runs of

I had more to say on this but don't seem to be able to get the text to publish haha !

>33 astropi: I've signed up for the deluxe, have not received it yet. My main point is that "primary" purchase books should not be collected for "value/investment", i think these are much more of passion projects and should be collected based on quality than value (high quality/low investment value). Arion Press fits in very well in that (as does Barbarian Press, Pennyroal etc). I think once you start collecting these books as a "value proposition" you get to much more subjective preferences. So I collect a fair amount of what I consider first tier (Tallone, Barbarian Press, Arion Press, St James Park Press), some of second tier (Suntup - which is polymer press and less art variety) and almost no third tier (Thornwillow Press - "mystery paper", okish typesetting, simple bindings). I do think deluxe runs are better value generally as are more limited press runs.

>32 dmitrip:
"why collect fine press books at all?"

I purchase fine books because since my childhood I have always enjoyed reading beautiful well-made books. I only purchase books for pleasure of reading - this is why I am passionate about books. Their investment value is very, very secondary to me.

>37 booksforreading: Hence why your user name isn't booksfor$$$? I'm with you. 99.99% reader/0.01% collector-investor...

>32 dmitrip: I don't think anyone here means 'investment value' when they say 'value'. Ok, obviously I can't speak for everyone, but at least I don't mean that. In book collecting, when I say 'value' I don't mean 'how much can I sell this book for in XXX years', but rather 'what other books can I buy for the same price'. As probably any collector out there, I have a wish list of books, and I know their prices. When I see a title like 'Sea of Cortez' from Arion for $2200, I look at my list and take all the books that cost less than $2200. I then sort them according to how much I want to have them, and Arion books never make even the top 5. That is what I mean by 'value proposition'. The book is simply too expensive for what it has to offer, or put another way, there are books from other publishers which have the same quality (or usually better) and cost the same or less.

>34 dmitrip: "Frankly you are paying to keep these guys in business"

The thing is, there seems to be a problem with their business model if their books cost 2-3x as much as everyone else's books that match roughly the same quality. I'm a book collector, and I want fine presses to succeed, but I'm also not running a charity. If you're a fine press and have books sitting in the warehouse for decades, there's something wrong there.

But again, this post turned out to be too negative than I meant it to. I really don't mind Arion Press, and I'm happy they have customers and that their customers are happy with the books. I just personally don't care about this press at all until they figure out how to make their books more affordable.

>32 dmitrip: First of all, welcome to the forum. Second, those are awfully nice books with which you're starting your fine book collection. Finally, with regards to value, I don't think most of us are talking about investment value. Certainly I'm not. I've never sold a book. Books leave my collection as gifts or charity donations. When I talk about value I mean value to me and bang for the buck. For a given dollar spent on books do I find it more satisfying to buy a title from the Barbarian Press or Arion? For me, the answer would usually be the Barbarian Press or Foolscap Press (which is why I subscribe to both). The AP is the most frustrating fine press out there. I like their work (I own over two dozen titles) but I'm usually unimpressed with their bindings, lack of slipcases, and most importantly choice of artists. I feel that their pricing is more expensive for what you get than most of the fine presses with which I deal.

I think all of us on this thread would love to own this particular title (The Sea of Cortez). Wagener is a particular favorite of mine. We don't dislike the AP. We don't want to see it disappear but that doesn't mean we don't have criticism.

>36 dmitrip: I agree that Thornwillow does need to state the paper they use, but they are absolutely NOT "third tier". I personally hold them in higher regard than Suntup in terms of overall quality. They only produce letterpress products, and they offer some editions you will never find anywhere else, such as "Beauty is the Beginning of Terror" which is one of my favorite letterpress books. In Beauty they researched the project extensively (I believe they do this for all their books) and reproduced photographs from the US Military Academy as well as photographs owned by the owner of the press (passed down)! Very unique, again you can't find this anywhere else. Also, for the quality you get, their books are very affordable. I highly recommend at some point you get one of their half-leather editions and see for yourself. The paper is nice and thick, and the bite to each page is lovely. Also the overall design is wonderful. My thoughts of course.

>41 astropi: Hear, hear!

Thornwillow's paper is exclusively from Mohawk Paper Co, which is their neighbor in the Hudson Valley. Several other U.S. presses use Mohawk, including Arion on occasion.

>41 astropi: >42 grifgon: I just received my newest Thornwillow, their Genesis and it's immediately one of the nicest books in the library. I was so impressed with the printing that I emailed Luke a note of appreciation earlier today. The feel of the book is superb.

>43 gmacaree: nice! pictures please :)

This has developed into a very interesting and helpful discussion for me. I have only recently started buying fine press books and I'm still exploring the foothills of fine book collecting. At present I tend to agree with >39 filox: when they say 'When I see a title like 'Sea of Cortez' from Arion for $2200, I look at my list and take all the books that cost less than $2200'

My most recent 6 purchases have been the Foolscap Press 'Story of the Fisherman', the Allen Press Quartet of stories by Edith Wharton, Whittington Press 'Pastorale', the LEC 'Secret Sharer', Nomad Letterpress '2020 Vision' and I have pre-paid for a copy of the St James Park Press ‘King Arthur’. The total cost of these 6 books was only very slightly more than the cost of the Arion Press 'Sea of Cortez' to a non-subscriber. Three of the books are recent publications from operating fine presses, and the other three were from the secondary market. All are wonderful (to my eyes).

At present I cannot convince myself that it makes sense for me to buy one high-cost book (no matter how well produced) when I can buy such a diverse collection of high-quality books for the same cost. (I realise that I may be missing out on a treasure as a consequence.) It is instructive to read the different takes on this as set out in this discussion.

You will appreciate that is the view of someone still exploring and discovering which presses and books appeal to him. Established collectors of fine books may well (in fact clearly do) see the world differently!

It all comes down to perceived value. In the minds of many AP is no longer a value in their/my perception. Their workmanship for what their doing is still high quality, that hasn’t changed, but the value add to the work isn’t what it once was.

I’ll be spending more then this on at least one book this year but the value proposition is much much higher and makes it something I can stomach. Overall though Thornwillow, Foolscap, Whittington etc are offering a better quality product at a much better price.

I’m thrilled that some are thrilled with this and I hope they enjoy it forever.

>41 astropi: I have four of their books - Frankenstein, David Mamet, Inferno and Sherlock Holmes, in half leather. These are fine books. The bindings are a bit plain and same-ish, the typography is ok, paper is ok. They are third tier for me simply because I would rank almost every other fine press book I own above these. Obviously this is a very subjective opinion. I am pleased to hear your opinion on their recent work - and I will take a closer look at them again on that basis.

Arion is charging what the market will bear for Sea of Cortez. The last 20 years has seen an increase in collecting (along with a steep appreciation in prices) and interest in Steinbeck's work. For a lot of people that live in the Bay Area (or up in Seattle) the price of this book is no problem whatsoever. Its cost to them probably means what $20 does to me (it matters). Many of the newly rich technologists think nothing of dropping several hundred thousand in a year to build up a library. That's why the deluxe version is sold out - they could have charged double the list with the same result - as long as you keep that limitation small.

>48 Sport1963: they could have charged double the list with the same result - as long as you keep that limitation small.

Shhh. Don’t give them any ideas!

>48 Sport1963: Many of the newly rich technologists think nothing of dropping several hundred thousand in a year to build up a library

I'm sorry, I don't think this is true at all. Do you have any evidence for this claim? Here's the thing: i) the average salary of a software engineer in the valley is about 200k, but with the rent being so high, paying $2200 for a book is definitely nothing to sneeze at, ii) being a 'technologist' myself, and having many 'technologist' friends, I can say that personally I still think it's an expensive book and won't buy it (see my previous posts), and I can also say that book collecting is a very niche hobby among this population. Also, I think a large part of Arion's subscribers are institutions, not private collectors. I know that these days it's very popular to blame 'newly rich technologists' for a lot of the problems, but in this case I find the hypothesis very far fetched, at least without any supporting evidence.

>21 Sorion: >27 booksforreading: Thanks for your reply. I definitely won’t let comments here affect my enjoyment when the book comes.

I think the wide range of opinions expressed make it clear that there is no easy way to pin down value. For me, I know this book is expensive, but it falls within my interests so perfectly that there was no question about purchasing it. In contrast, I passed on Thornwillow’s much cheaper Poe, despite owning almost all of their recent publications—largely because, collection value aside, I just don’t care for Poe or tattoo art all that much. I guess like Sorion, I am thrilled by the variety of opinions on the subject, as it makes for a diverse world of publishing that often brings to my attention books that I wouldn’t have considered otherwise.

>50 filox: if you make $200k or more a year I don't think a $2200 would be that big of a deal. Granted, it's not a $100 item, but the average rent in San Fran is $3600 for a 750 sq foot apartment
https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/ca/san-francisco/
That's $43,200 per year, so the average techie makes roughly 4.5 times that. That leaves for a huge disposable income. The average salary in the USA for comparison is about $56k.

Please let's be careful not to turn this discussion into counting other peoples' money and what everyone should be able to afford, and let's please continue focusing on beautiful books.

>38 jveezer:
LOL!

>53 booksforreading: +1

>53 booksforreading: I hear you, but I think it's perfectly fine to go on related (and sometimes unrelated) tangents and yes money is one of those, because if you wan to "continue focusing on beautiful books" as you say, that requires money. And in fact, most of the Sea of Cortez discussion has been about money.

>55 astropi: In my opinion, one thing is to talk about a high price of a book and if it is justified for what the book's production offers, and another is to tell people that if they earn this much they should be able to afford books like that. Such "points" in a discussion have nothing to do with a discussion about books or their values.

In my observation, art and books are often purchased by people who should not be able to afford them - they often spend their last money or go in debt to acquire what they have been dreaming about getting. I am not here to tell anybody if they are right or wrong to do so.

A discussion of "I cannot afford this, but you should be able to afford this" is not relevant to discussions about books and to actual collecting abilities or habits.

>56 booksforreading: I respect your opinion but disagree with it. The posts and subsequent discussion were not about specific people, but simply about cost of living, wage, and relation to the very expensive Sea of Cortez. If I said anything factually incorrect in my post (52) do let me know. Otherwise, what I said stands. Also, people should be free to post about what they feel/think in relation to books, which is what >48 Sport1963: and others did. No hard feelings I hope, but that's my opinion.

I think it's a good debate. Ultimately it's about whether the book represents good value, and there are as many perspectives on that as there are people.

A Shakespeare First Folio, 1623, sold last week by Christies for just under $10,000,000.
Just saying

>57 astropi: I just wanted to call out that $200k Bay Area salary is going to be closer to $120k take-home after taxes and retirement savings. That’s still a lot of money, but it’s certainly low enough to give one pause when making a $2200 book purchase, especially when factoring in the cost of living (rent being more expensive, food being more expensive, etc).

>52 astropi: if you make $200k or more a year I don't think a $2200 would be that big of a deal

I mean, maybe understand that not everyone's situation is the same? For me it definitely is a big deal, and do realize that $200k is before tax and not everyone is single and living in a one bedroom. If you need to rent a 2-bedroom, have a wife and kids, and want to live in a nicer neighborhood, the $200k salary isn't all that much...

>52 astropi: The average salary in the USA for comparison is about $56k.

And the point here is...? US average rent is about $1k for 1-bedroom, so about 3.6x cheaper than San Francisco. It's almost as if areas with higher wages have higher costs of living, and vice versa.

But this is getting a bit off topic. My point was that I don't believe 'technologists' are driving up the prices of books, and I've yet to see any evidence to the contrary. I really don't understand why people are so quick to blame programmers for everything.

>61 filox: I don't know where you got the idea that "people are so quick to blame programmers for everything" -sloppy code and bugs? definitely, but "everything" is rather far-fetched. And I absolutely realize that everyone has different situations. Nevertheless, as it stands, the average salary in the USA is still $56k BEFORE taxes. The point is, someone that makes $200k has far greater disposable income than someone that makes an average salary. $200k - $43k = $157k. I believe a two-bedroom is around $1300 a month on average in the USA, so $56k - $16 = $40k. Yeah, nearly 4x the disposable income as an average American. I certainly don't think that techies are driving up the cost of books, but at the same time I don't think they would have to worry about purchasing a $2000 book whereas most Americans would simply say "unaffordable" and that's that.

I think the average Bay Area tech salary is closer to $150k than $200. Taxes, Social Security and Medicare take a nice chunk plus 401k contributions. The Bay Area is a very expensive place to live. It's amazing we have any teachers or retail/restaurant/hospitality workers who can afford to live here.

Looks like the median salary is $236k
https://www.levels.fyi/Salaries/Software-Engineer/San-Francisco-Bay-Area/

>63 kdweber: I've never understood this almost apologetic discourse of "the wealthy pay taxes, social security....expensive place to live" - people that make average or below average income still have to pay all of that as well. Teachers etc live in such places because they often live in tiny studios or room up with others, often in small apartments. Or, they commute which is usually anything but enjoyable. Or, I suppose if they're "lucky" they have a partner which makes a median income of $236k.

Even those with a very large income and significant amount to spend on luxuries such as limited edition books think twice about significant expenditures, which is often why they are wealthy, as they consider the options of buying or investing, and often opt for the latter.
The wealthiest person I know drives a Mercedes, but it is 15 years old, and still serves its purpose adequately.

>64 astropi: Lots of sites on the internet giving median salaries in the SF Bay Area. I've seen $139k, $152k, $156k and $179k not to mention your link. My point is not that high earners aren't better off financially than what the mean is paid, it's that $3k for a single book is a lot of money for most people unless you're in the top 1%. As a retired software engineer in the SF Bay Area I know plenty of senior engineers with incomes over $200 and plenty of junior engineers with incomes under $150k. All of them look at me like I'm crazy when the hear how much I pay for books.

>66 kdweber: it's that $3k for a single book is a lot of money for most people unless you're in the top 1%.

For all the discussion on average salaries I interpreted post >48 Sport1963:, which triggered this whole discussion, as talking about precisely this group. The people worth 10s or 100s of millions (or more). I'm sure there are quite a few of those living in the Bay Area too, some of them may even be into book collecting. I doubt they have a huge impact on the market overall though.

All of them look at me like I'm crazy when the hear how much I pay for books.
That's true! Though I think it's more a reflection on how niche a hobby fine book collecting is than anything else. I'd be willing to bet a fair bit that many of those who think it's 'crazy' are quite happy to blow thousands on eating out, holidays, fancy cars etc. It's just a question of what society thinks is normal/accceptable. Personally I'm very glad that it is so niche, otherwise I wouldn't be able to participate. Although we've witnessed a few 'fast' sell-outs of books recently, NONE of them look anything like, for example, the hundreds of thousands clamouring to buy Glastonbury tickets in the first few seconds they're on sale. Thank God.

>66 kdweber: And people look at me like I'm crazy when they find out how much I pay for a fine cigar. Hey, it's all in what's important to YOU. If you value something, you'll find a way to buy it. It's that simple.

If you buy a Ford instead of a Lexus, you can afford several $3,000 books. It’s all about priorities.

>69 jroger1: As somebody without a driver's license, let alone a car, I like where this line of thought goes.....

>68 Glacierman: Amen and 'nuff said!

Let's be fair. Arion Press is expensive but not out in leftfield with regards to other fine presses. The $3000 version of Sea of Cortez is the Deluxe format for subscribers. Subscribers could get the limited version for $1500. Still pricey to be sure. But Suntup lettered editions are often $3000-$6500. The upcoming Bordering on the Sublime from Barbarian Press is roughly $3500. Thornwillow has deluxe versions priced above $10,000.

Fine press books are combinations of skill, art, creativity and craftsmanship. I don't understand people who argue about the value of fine press books. It's like someone who just paid $80 million for a Monet getting into an argument with someone who says Monet sucks because Water Lillies is only worth the pennies that the canvas and paint cost used to create it.

>53 booksforreading: Yes!

>72 Randman111: Subscribers could get the limited version for $1500

Ah yes, the old "you can save $700 by spending $6000".

>72 Randman111: But Suntup lettered editions are often $3000-$6500

Ok, so many things that are wrong here:
1) As I mentioned above, the price of $1500 is for subscribers. As a subscriber, you agree to buy all the books that Arion produces which per year ends up being several thousands dollars for books that probably won't all interest you. Suntup has no such obligation
2) Suntup lettered editions are better quality (IMO, YMMV) than the standard Arion press edition
3) Let's look at the prices of latest Suntup lettered editions:
- Seed $1500
- World doesn't end $1950
- A scanner darkly $2150
- The auctioneer $2150
- Neuromancer $2500
- Let the right one in $2500

Claiming that Suntup lettered editions are in the $3000-$6500 range is disingenuous at best.

>72 Randman111: Thornwillow has deluxe versions priced above $10,000.

Sure, and I don't think anyone was saying that that one is cheap either.

>72 Randman111: It's like someone who just paid $80 million for a Monet getting into an argument with someone who says Monet sucks because Water Lillies is only worth the pennies that the canvas and paint cost used to create it.

I don't think this is an apt analogy at all. Books are very different from paintings. While the value of a painting stems mostly from the content (i.e., what is painted) and the fame of the author, fine press books are very much valued for the materials used, as well as the skill of the craftsmen (binders, pressmen, etc).
If you don't think that paper and binding material affects the price of a book, then I really don't think there's any point continuing this discussion.

>74 filox: I think you’re also being a bit disingenuous about the price of Suntup lettered, by acknowledging Arion Press’ subscription prices require you to buy all their books, while failing to point out you’d only get those Suntup lettered prices if you also basically subscribe and buy all of them.

If you don’t have the rights to the lettered, be prepared to pay hundreds or thousands of dollars in premiums to acquire them.

There are new pictures of Sea of Cortez online and the woodcuts are just stunning.

https://www.arionpress.com/store/sea-of-cortez-by-john-steinbeck-and-ed-ricketts...

As an avid Steinbeck fan and collector: can't wait to get my copy!

>75 U_238: In principle if you're "lucky" you can get a lettered Suntup copy. I realize that's probably unlikely, but I have seen lettered copies for sale although they sold out in minutes. Suntup's modus operandi is to purposely make commodity scarce, in order to make their product appear more desirable than it really is, whereas Arion Press actually tries to meet demand - that's my opinion. At any rate, I don't think it's fair to discuss second-hand prices.

Personally, I think Arion Press is leagues above Suntup. There's no way to deny that $2000+ is beyond most people's budget. As a subscriber that goes down to $1300 which makes it much more manageable, but still a huge cost for most people. Still, it looks amazing.

>77 Sport1963: Hope you post pics and your thoughts on it!

>75 U_238: I think you’re also being a bit disingenuous about the price of Suntup lettered, by acknowledging Arion Press’ subscription prices require you to buy all their books, while failing to point out you’d only get those Suntup lettered prices if you also basically subscribe and buy all of them.

I don't think I'm being disingenuous. The price that Suntup charges for its lettered editions is pretty clear and stated on their website. What you're talking about is the secondary market which is beyond the control of Suntup. We're comparing the prices charged by the press itself, let's not compare apples and oranges.

>79 filox: You should definitely hit up the Suntup website tonight and grab Neuromancer at list price. Oh wait.

>80 U_238: You should definitely hit up the Arion website and grab a copy of Moby Dick. Oh wait.

Seriously, what is the point being made here? That Suntup makes books that sell out quickly and then cost more on the secondary market, while Arion's books sit on the shelves for decades? I guess congrats Arion?

>74 filox:

Dear Filox

I apologize for getting under your skin. I didn't mean to offend anyone. I don't think i was being disingenuous when I cited the price of some of Suntup's lettered editions. And I don't mean to criticize Suntup. I greatly admire many of their books, including those that I can't afford.

And I'm sorry if you misunderstood that I meant "all" of their books are priced expensively, but to say that I'm incorrect, let's see. . .

H.H Wells Time Machine Roman Numeral edition was $12,950. https://suntup.press/the-time-machine
S. King's Misery Lettered Edition was $3,950. https://suntup.press/misery-stephen-king-signed-limited-edition
G. Orwell 1984 Lettered Edition was $2,950. https://suntup.press/1984
R. Matheson's I Am Legend, was $3,500 https://suntup.press/i-am-legend

And by the way, Suntup also has a subscription/rights model to procure those beautiful lettered editions.

And, yes, of course I realized that material costs are a factor behind books.

But you really missed the whole point I was trying to make. The price of fine letterpress books goes beyond just the material costs as you allude to. They are combinations of art, craftsmanship, skill, materials, content, etc. Some books, like the Deluxe Sea of Cortez, has an artifact element to it. A few deluxe editions of Thornwillow's amazing Beauty is the Beginning of Terror, also included an artifact element. I believe the value of the entire combination is uniquely perceived and determined by each individual. That's why it doesn't make any sense to me when I read or hear blanket criticisms of certain Presses, or books, being overpriced.

Thanks

http://pics.cdn.librarything.com//picsizes/16/97/1697571ce9947e96371587777514469...
Just for fun: here is a first edition paperback in an all leather clamshell box

>82 Randman111: H.H Wells Time Machine Roman Numeral edition was $12,950. https://suntup.press/the-time-machine

That's the numeral, not the lettered edition. Lettered edition was $2150

As for the rest, yes, those were the prices. You also seem to pick the most expensive of the Suntup books, but whatever. Even with the prices you yourself list, saying that "Suntup lettered editions are often $3000-$6500" is simply not true. I always appreciate a good discussion, but this is plainly distorting the facts -- out of all the books that Suntup has published I think 2 or maybe 3 were in the range you claim, and at the very low end at that. This is why I think you're being disingenuous.

> That's why it doesn't make any sense to me when I read or hear blanket criticisms of certain Presses, or books, being overpriced.

I don't think it's a blanket criticism at all. You can find many posts on this list that explain in very much detail why people think Arion is overpriced. But everyone has their opinions and that's all nice and good, but I do believe the fact that Arion can't sell their books for decades really speaks volumes. Also the fact that their books sell for half the original price on the secondary market really cements the case in my opinion. Like I said many times before, I like that Arion exists and that they publish their books, and that people buy them and enjoy them, but their books are overpriced in my opinion (and apparently in the opinion of many other collectors). If I can get some of their titles for half price on the secondary market, I probably will.

Back to the original topic, who here received a copy of Sea of Cortez? If so, could you please share some pics?

I received correspondence today from Arion that Sea of Cortez is most likely to ship after the Holidays (at least the deluxe copy anyway). They sited Covid-related production delays on the binding process as the primary reason.

Just was perusing the AP books for kicks and noticed an interesting detail for this book that I'm not sure I've seen before. The standard edition has a flat spine and the variant and deluxe has a rounded spine. I assume that changes slightly the layout of the page if they are using the same sheets since they would need to be cut differently (if the text block edge isn't also rounded, which is does not appear to be here). Can't really tell from the pictures

In general, I'm not a huge lover of flat spines although they work on some books. I think rounded spines probably take more skill but I'm no binder. I love the rounded spine on their Don Quixote, and the corresponding concave rounding of the text block edge. The Sea of Cortez looks beautiful in all the editions; this is just one of those things that make me go hmmm...When I was a subscriber, there wasn't really these choices of standard, variant, and deluxe.

>87 jveezer: Interesting. That flat back will sag over time. It already has that tendency judging from the photos. Flat backs are notorious for that with a book of any thickness. It works well on thin ones (one-three sections) though. The variant is rounded, but not backed. That is rather odd to me, but modern binders do all sorts of odd things, so I am not surprised. At least the headband is hand-sewn. Curious.

On Arion’s Instagram feed, there are photos of a rounded text block edge for the deluxe. Also, there are very interesting videos of them machine-sewing the standard and hand-sewing the deluxe text blocks. At least from my eyes, it appears that they are laid out the same.

Has anyone received any communication from Arion since before the holidays re Sea of Cortez? I've heard zero.

>90 Sport1963: I last heard from them on December 10th: "The combination of pandemic and the holiday season is proving to be a challenge for Arion. With altered work locations and schedules, our small team is safely working hard to invoice, pack, and ship orders, but it is taking longer than we had hoped."

I saw a new AP subscriber on a Facebook group post pics of his copy.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/193517360836341/permalink/1620438041477592/

>91 kdweber: Same here. Must be on the boat now, rounding Cape Horn....

>93 Sport1963: haha :)
Well, share some pics when it finally arrives!

Just received word that Arion expects to ship my copy on Feb 1. Once received I will post pics.

Sea of Cortez arrived. Here are some pics:

https://i.postimg.cc/SxPGBtzj/IMG-2775.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/wMFX0Wpq/IMG-2776.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/QxxkHrQH/IMG-2777.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/sgMY490z/IMG-2778.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/RCTLS0nk/IMG-2782.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/4xjzL7r9/IMG-2783.jpg

Apologies for the terrible photos. When I have some time I will enlarge and crop them so everyone can get a better look.

Thank you for sharing. That box makes me want to take up carpentry so I can take my slipcase making to another level :) Very beautiful

>96 Sport1963: When using postimages, I strongly encourage you and everyone else to post directly the hotlink for the website, it comes out much better and automatically shows the picture in the thread.
Just copy and paste that link.

I purchased a copy as a subscriber but Steinbeck is not my jam. Curious if there are any common sites to sell fine press books such as this one?

>99 LBShoreBook: If you're on Facebook, you can try the Small Press Limited Book Collectors group https://www.facebook.com/groups/193517360836341 .

It has a couple of thousand members, so I'd say you have a decent chance of connecting with someone who wouldn't mind picking it up at (or close to) subscriber's price.

>100 whytewolf1: Thanks, that is the idea. Not looking to make a profit, just recoup most of my outlay to purchase other titles that are more interesting to me.

>97 AMindForeverVoyaging: You'd be better off learning cabinetry. Carpentry is for buildings. *grin*

I just want to say, this is my favorite group :D

>102 Glacierman: By the time I got done making an acceptable box I probably would have gone through enough wood to build a house, so I might be only partially wrong

>98 astropi: Thank you for the tip astropi. Here goes everyone:

I was able to handle half a dozen of Arion’s more recent publications tonight at an Arion Press/Caxton Club event in Chicago, which was a real treat - far more Arions than I’d ever seen at one time in person before. They brought copies of Frankenstein, Morte de Smudgie, The Nose, Woolgathering, the Neruda poems, and a deluxe Sea of Cortez. All were very nice, but Sea of Cortez was really in a different league than the rest, and was the star of the show, at least among the people I talked to. I absolutely loved the engravings, the typography, the paper, the binding, the presentation box - really a lovely work.

The program was good too: a history of the press, a talk from a head librarian at the Smithsonian, and a discussion with Audrey Nifenegger who illustrated Smudgie.

>106 jsg1976: sounds like a lovely evening! I always thought the AP Sea of Cortez looked wonderful. Their standard edition is $2200.... sigh.

>107 astropi: it’s the one in-print Arion title that’s on my search list!

Richard Wagener’s nature engravings are all incredible, and I like the looks of the design and printing, but I’ve been waiting in hopes an Arion subscriber will list their copy at a lower price