Transgender Identity and Feminism

Soggetto topico originale: Transgender Appropriation of the Word 'Woman'

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Transgender Identity and Feminism

1sturlington
Mag 24, 2019, 9:04 am

I'm starting this thread with not a little trepidation, because this topic seems explosive right now. But in the context of new draconian restrictions on abortion being enacted in the US, I've seen a lot of statements that framing the right to abortion as "women's" rights or saying that "women" get pregnant is somehow transphobic. This led me to the statement that "Trans women are women," which made me feel more than a little uneasy, so that took me down a rabbit hole of reading. If you'd like to read up on this issue, here are some resources (TW for all links--rape, violence against women, gender-based slurs):

The New Backlash - Very long but comprehensive; takes a radical feminist pov.

A Feminist Critique of Cisgender

Lesbianism is under attack, though not by the usual suspects

Transgender Ideology Does Not Support Women - this is authored by a transsexual

Gender Dysphoria in Children

The Left Are Abandoning Women; and in Doing So, Abandoning Everything They Stand For -

To expand the scope of what it is to be a “woman” (i.e. a biologically adult female) to mean that but also literally anybody else is to deny those same women the ability and fundamental language to describe their oppression and organise to dismantle it accordingly.

...

History shows us that women have been repeatedly and consistently marginalised, often to advance a male agenda, but other times for no other reason than to just assert male supremacy. And what could be more marginalising than erasing wholesale the very concept of woman?


I am interested in your opinions on this issue. I opposed the patronizing NC bathroom bill because it seemed silly to me, but also because I assumed it applied to transsexual persons, who had undergone or were undergoing gender reassignment surgery, a tiny percentage of the overall population. It's quite another thing to insist that men (who look like men in all respects but say they identify as women) should be allowed into safe spaces like domestic violence shelters and rape crisis centers, or that women can no longer hold women-only meetings or conferences. If you want to see what some of these "women" say about other women, and the violence they advocate, look at https://terfisaslur.com/ but I warn you that it is very unpleasant and probably triggering to many.

Another worrying thing is the pressure on children to take hormones or even get surgery simply because they do not conform to gender stereotypes or are homosexual. I did not like girly things when I was a child, but that didn't mean I was a boy.

I am all for breaking down gender norms and stereotypes and for people being allowed to live however they choose in peace and present however they like, so long as they aren't harming others. But when I read that saying a woman does not have a penis is somehow hate speech, that crosses a line. I feel like this is another instance where women are being told to sit down and shut up, that our very identity as women is being erased, to appease a very small but vocal group of men who want to claim the word "woman" as their own.

2lorax
Modificato: Mag 24, 2019, 9:15 am

I'm not going to bother to respond to a bunch of by-the-book right-wing transphobic talking points. (Note for flaggers: I am calling the *talking points* transphobic, not sturlington.) But I will suggest that you go find some broader reading, rather than diving headfirst into terrifying TERFdom and trusting statements straight out of Trump's playbook just because they're wrapped in feminist language and coming from women. The fact that you responded to people pointing out that men can get pregnant not by being confused and trying to understand, but instead by going straight for "trans women are just men in dresses" and seeking out materials that agreed with that notion, is more than a little disappointing.

3sturlington
Mag 24, 2019, 9:54 am

>2 lorax: And this is why I hesitated to post.

4jjwilson61
Mag 24, 2019, 12:18 pm

The fact that not all women can get pregnant doesn't make abortion not a women's issue. IMHO.

5LolaWalser
Modificato: Mag 24, 2019, 12:44 pm

Shannon, I think these days almost anything on the internet can take one down the most horrible rabbit holes indeed. Please let us all try to climb out of this one, friend!

As lorax says, what you say has troubled you is indeed part of the rightwing rhetoric on transgender these days. Nor is this the only instance in which the right is co-opting in some way the (traditional) radical left, its issues and personalities. The same misogynists who are disenfranchising women in the US are lecturing them on the sexist evils of Islam. They'll toss you in prison in Alabama for having an abortion but hey, they won't stick a niqab on you. Say "thankyoumaster", woman.

So, it's important to consider who is spreading the paranoia about the transgender, who is gaining from it the most. It's not women and it's not even "the left".

As for the sources, when they happen to be old feminist warriors... I try to understand things in context. If they lived their lives and fought their battles wedded to certain standards and ideas, it can be terribly hard to absorb novelty and change late in life. I'm not sure I can understand fully the mindscape and the suffering of, say, someone who was a radical feminist in 1972.

I think that transgender issues are theoretically very complex and we navigate uncharted waters here, but that the most important thing, the stuff that really matters in life, is how we treat people. How do we treat them decently, humanely, as we would like to be treated.

In regard to actual transgender people, to me this would first mean accepting them as they wish to be accepted. One big recent change in the perception of the transgender, by others and even by themselves, is that the adoption of strict traditionally construed gender roles is not necessary to determine one's gender status. Some transwomen and transmen do indeed go for as complete a physical transformation as is currently possible, but it's not seen anymore as THE goal of EVERY transperson. Some will undergo hormone therapy and surgery, some won't, or have partial interventions. So there is no one determining "transwoman" or "transman" body. And so, yeah, it is transphobic to deny these people the identity they are claiming by thinking of them as "men in dresses" or whatever. They are women with, arguably, masculine bodies. Or men, with female bodies.

I would plead for understanding. Please don't fall in the linguistic traps the right is setting. These are not "men" trying to crash women's spaces. You and I may not ever understand much about what it means to be transgender, but it's easy enough to see that by insisting on going against their own declared identity and labelling them as WE decide is "right", we are committing a violence on these people. This is, of course, exactly what the right wants as a prelude to other violences.

6librorumamans
Mag 24, 2019, 2:13 pm

>5 LolaWalser: I think that transgender issues are theoretically very complex and we navigate uncharted waters here, but that the most important thing, the stuff that really matters in life, is how we treat people. How do we treat them decently, humanely, as we would like to be treated.

This is a particularly sensible suggestion in a thoroughly sensible post.

Thank you, Lola.

7susanbooks
Mag 24, 2019, 2:33 pm

Transwomen are women. "Trans" simply modifies "women," it doesn't negate it. That would be like saying Tall women aren't women b/c they're tall. I know it's not the same to most, but it should be.

8lorax
Mag 24, 2019, 2:48 pm

So, sturlington:

How do we know you're a woman? You tell us. You use a primarily-female "real" name, you identify as "mother" rather than "parent" or "father" on your profile, you tell us in your first post that you are.

How do you know LolaWalser is a woman? Or that I am? Similarly, because we tell you we are.

All you need to do is be consistent with this line of thinking. Don't demand someone drop their pants before you believe them when they tell you they're a woman. Just believe them, rather than chromosomes or what a doctor said when they were born or what name their parents gave them initially.

9susanbooks
Mag 25, 2019, 5:59 pm

>5 LolaWalser: that really was a great post, LolaWalser

10Caka
Modificato: Mag 28, 2021, 12:50 am

I know this was posted a while ago, but you’re not alone..I have noticed that more women are starting to recognize there are serious issues.
Trans activism has become increasingly indistinguishable from some of the most extreme MRAs.

11LolaWalser
Mag 28, 2021, 12:54 am

>10 Caka:

Rubbish. Also, you joined today without anything catalogued and this is the topic you choose for your first post? The site doesn't tolerate trolling. Take your garbage where it will be appreciated.

12spiralsheep
Mag 28, 2021, 3:21 am

I was in radical feminist groups in the 1980s with at least two transwomen or women as we called them. If they live as my sisters then they're my sisters.

13southernbooklady
Mag 28, 2021, 8:57 am

>10 Caka: The feminist theory group does not require people to join to post, or you would have received a welcome message from me informing you about the group terms, which you can find here:

https://www.librarything.com/topic/329226#

This group is moderated to comply with the following guidelines:

We seek on-topic, respectful, and constructive discussion about feminism. The validity of feminism is a given. Dissent is acceptable; disruption is not. Comments should pertain to the thread topic. Obnoxious, insulting, abusive, and threatening comments are unacceptable.


>12 spiralsheep: I had the opposite experience in my radical feminist/lesbian separatist group (also in the 80s!) They were wonderful, warm people, but one defied their collective idea of who should be called what at one's peril. It was a space that really allowed me to come into my own in my very early days of coming out, but it couldn't last...eventually, language which at first felt like a celebration and a source of pride started to feel flattened. As if "lesbian" was a word to be copyrighted, instead of something inherently complex and personal.

14spiralsheep
Mag 28, 2021, 11:07 am

>13 southernbooklady: I'm glad you had a reasonably safe space at least for a while, but I'm also glad you felt you could move on when you'd outgrown your early circumstances.

I only met two social networks of lesbian separatists. One was posh white women on an endless round of nutroast dinner parties around Hampstead who would never have accepted me or any of my social circle, lol. The other was women peace campaigners organising around the Greenham Common protests, who I always found friendly and helpful.

With hindsight it's obvious to me that exclusivist or exceptionalist queen-bee feminisms, and the more inclusive womanist and social justice influenced feminisms, would always be easy to deliberately divide and rule using wedge issues (e.g. abortion in the US, and transphobia in the UK, and economics/race/caste everywhere). A ton of right-wing money can buy a ton of targeted propaganda, y'know?

Follow the money, my friends. Ask who's funding those expensive court cases. Ask who's paying for professional grifters to hammer wedge issues into public consciousness. These political astroturfers aren't employed by ordinary people to push our interests.

15southernbooklady
Mag 28, 2021, 11:24 am

I think there was something utopian about the people I knew. They were trying to envision a different kind of community, and there's a long history of attempts to do that in the US. But somehow "goals" always get turned into rules and it becomes easier to exclude people who don't conform to the rules than it is to figure out how those people help you to reach your goals.

16susanbooks
Mag 28, 2021, 11:49 am

>11 LolaWalser: and >13 southernbooklady: thanks so much for clearing out the trash

17spiralsheep
Mag 28, 2021, 11:50 am

>15 southernbooklady: That sounds a wise perspective.

Reminds me of Ursula Le Guin's famous short story The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas.

18alsocass
Giu 3, 2021, 7:48 am

I just discovered groups, and saw this thread, which I opened with hesitation. I figured I would read it and decide if I was staying or going.

Staying. Very relieved to read sensible nuanced responses.

19susanbooks
Giu 3, 2021, 10:06 am

>18 alsocass: every time this thread gets reopened I read it with trepidation. Like you, I'm so relieved, so thankful, for the majority of the voices here.

20southernbooklady
Giu 3, 2021, 10:50 am

I bookmarked >5 LolaWalser: and revisit it often.

21tsvga
Nov 10, 2021, 6:11 am

I am a trans man (and a new user) and can get pregnant. Abortion is an issue for women and some people who are not women. The only people who have an issue with this are the ones who want to exclude trans people as a whole from consideration in feminist politics even though they are seriously marginalized for gender-related reasons. In other words, trans-exclusionary feminists are bigots. (I refuse to describe them as "radical" because there is nothing radical about parroting right-wing talking points, as lorax pointed out.)

I really hope this isn't a mainstream or acceptable view among users here, because if it is I already feel unwelcome.

22susanbooks
Nov 10, 2021, 8:45 am

>21 tsvga: Welcome to LT! If you read the above thread you'll see that the majority of posters know & understand that gender is different from biology & that true feminism embraces trans rights. I'm sorry the gross title of this thread made you feel unwelcome, even for a second. This is a great group. I hope you feel free to comment more; based on your books, I'd love to hear what you have to say.

23southernbooklady
Nov 10, 2021, 8:59 am

Last month I attended a long virtual meeting with other indie booksellers on creating trans-inclusive spaces and practices in their stores. It was really valuable, and because these are booksellers, it came with a kick-ass reading list:

https://sibaweb.com/blogpost/1157249/380468/Trans-Inclusive-Bookselling

24lilithcat
Nov 10, 2021, 9:11 am

>23 southernbooklady:

susanbooks' comment ("I'm sorry the gross title of this thread made you feel unwelcome, even for a second"), leads me to suggest that you change the title of the thread to something less "gross". As admin, you can do that. (I have no specific suggestion, just raising the possibility.)

252wonderY
Nov 10, 2021, 10:14 am

>23 southernbooklady: Nice list! A typo correction though -

Fairest by Meredith Talusan

26librorumamans
Nov 10, 2021, 10:45 am

>23 southernbooklady:

Oh, dear! Oh, dear! More tantalizations — but thanks.

27southernbooklady
Nov 10, 2021, 10:58 am

>24 lilithcat: I'm open to editing the topic title. If this is the place we will be discussing the intersection of transgender identity and feminism I'd like to hear some suggestions.

28susanbooks
Modificato: Nov 10, 2021, 12:51 pm

accidental double post

29susanbooks
Modificato: Nov 10, 2021, 12:22 pm

>23 southernbooklady: Thanks for the great list! I'd also add all of T Cooper's books

30lorax
Nov 11, 2021, 8:21 am

Yeah, this thread title makes me uncomfortable every time I see it, and (a) I'm cis and (b) I know that it's mostly people arguing very strongly against the transphobic arguments (mustn't ever call anyone transphobic on LT, that's a 'personal attack' according to Tim) from the OP.

31southernbooklady
Nov 11, 2021, 5:18 pm

>30 lorax: this thread title makes me uncomfortable every time I see it

Well that decides me. I'm going to give the OP a chance to contact me if they want to weigh in on how it should be changed, but in the meantime, I'm inclined to edit it to something fairly neutral. How's this:

Vota: New Topic Title: Transgender Identity and Feminism

Corrispondenza attuale: 11, No 0, Incerto 3

32LolaWalser
Nov 11, 2021, 5:45 pm

>31 southernbooklady:

Thanks for offering to contact the OP and for the new title suggestion.

To clarify, I voted "Undecided" not regarding the title change (fine by me) but because I'm not sure whether it wouldn't be better to start a fresh thread. Maybe I'm overthinking this; in any case, I really can't make up my mind on that.

33sashame
Nov 11, 2021, 10:52 pm

>32 LolaWalser: i think if we want a vibrant conversation abt trans identity then we should start a new thread, but EITHER way this thread title should b changed. as a trans person myself, i flinch involuntarily every time i see this thread title on my screen, even though i know the OP holds a minority opinion

34susanbooks
Nov 12, 2021, 8:02 am

Yeah, every time I see the thread title, even though a second later I remember what it was all about & how we all came back with corrective, trans-positive info, I also feel queasy. If I were trans it'd make me feel dehumanized & that's not what this group is about at all.

35southernbooklady
Nov 12, 2021, 11:14 am

I spoke to the OP and they had no problems with changing the title, so it has been done.

Whether or not the group wants to continue to use this thread to discuss transgender/feminism issues is of course up to you all.

36overlycriticalelisa
Nov 12, 2021, 11:46 am

i'm late to this thread and conversation but i'll just add my voice to now thank nikki for changing the thread title. it happened while i was reading it for the first time and i feel better about the thread being here already. and >5 LolaWalser: in particular, thank you.

37LolaWalser
Nov 12, 2021, 12:37 pm

>33 sashame:, >34 susanbooks:

I agree.

>35 southernbooklady:

What do you think about a fresh start?

>36 overlycriticalelisa:

Aw, thanks.

382wonderY
Nov 20, 2022, 8:38 am

The Ohio legislature is really putting the screws to trans medical treatment this past week.

https://www.news5cleveland.com/news/politics/ohio-politics/ohio-bill-limiting-he...

39ElizaH540
Dic 4, 2022, 10:02 pm

>1 sturlington: I think people who say it's transphobic are trying to drive a wedge. I believe it's more correct to say it's a human right because transgender men could get pregnant also. I recently read a book, "Fight the Patriarchy: A Survival Guide," that touches on this issue. It short and entertaining and I thought it laid out a good argument.

40krazy4katz
Dic 4, 2022, 10:50 pm

This is an interesting topic and one I dealt with last year. I teach medical students and we were giving 2 lectures to second year medical student on normal reproduction (meaning not about people who have reproductive problems). For years these lectures were (and still are) called Male and Female Reproduction where we describe the anatomy and physiology of “male” in the 1st lecture and “female” in the second lecture. The students had been told that everyone’s gender identity is respected by all of the teaching faculty but we are using the terms male and female because it’s easier to talk about anatomy and physiology that way. Last year we had a complaint from a student. This year we tried to be a bit more careful and had no complaints but I still don’t see a perfect solution. I did consult someone from our campus LGBTQ organization but any suggestions from people here are certainly welcome.

41sashame
Dic 6, 2022, 2:12 am

>40 krazy4katz: its good that ur considering/mindful of this issue! it comes up for me regularly in my anatomy and pathophysiology classes

basically, using "male/female" makes communication a little bit faster/more efficient for all the students. but if u have any transgender students in the class, theres a significant chance that such terms will make the transgender student feel unsafe, uncomfortable and disrespected. furthermore, if any of ur medical students repeat the same terms around trans clients or colleagues, it may have the same effect

so continuing to use "male/female" in such a way is deeply disrespectful to trans people. its up to u and ur school community to figure out if its "worth it" to make ur communication in lecture slightly more efficient at the cost of alienating any trans ppl in the class (or any trans ppl who ever work w any of ur students)

it takes a few more words, but its not difficult to shift the language to stop using "male/female". usually what ur ACTUALLY talking about r 1) organs, 2) hormones, 3) chromosomes. so specify what u r ACTUALLY talking about. if ur talking abt people w XX/XY chromosomes, or people w more testosterone/estrogen, or ppl w uterus/prostate, then say that instead of saying male/female. its not just more inclusive, its also more precise. and by talking abt reproduction without assumptions abt a definite relationship e.g. bw having a uterus and having more estrogen than testosterone, u can easily open up conversations about abnormal reproduction in order to help highlight differences in the process

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