Group Read: David Copperfield by Charles Dickens

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Group Read: David Copperfield by Charles Dickens

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1karenmarie
Mar 1, 2019, 8:17 am

Welcome to the Group Read Thread for David Copperfield by Charles Dickens.

I read David Copperfield when I was in high school, more than 40 years ago, so it’s time for a reread. Several people have requested a Dickens group read early in the year. I will also be hosting a group read of A Tale of Two Cities in October-November as prep for my RL book club's December discussion.

But back to David Copperfield! My edition is 856 pages long, 64 chapters. I’ll be trying to read two or three chapters a day since I found that to be such an effective tool for my three previous Dickens group reads - Great Expectations, Bleak House, and Nicholas Nickleby.

Here is the rather boring cover of my copy:



Here are a few, more interesting covers:

......

Cover, first serial edition of 1849


By Bradbury & Evans - NYPL, Public Domain, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=7220232

From Wikipedia's introductory information:
David Copperfield is the eighth novel by Charles Dickens. The novel's full title is The Personal History, Adventures, Experience and Observation of David Copperfield the Younger of Blunderstone Rookery (Which He Never Meant to Publish on Any Account). It was first published as a serial in 1849–50, and as a book in 1850.

The novel features the character David Copperfield, and is written in the first person, as a description of his life until middle age, with his own adventures and the numerous friends and enemies he meets along his way. It is his journey from being an impoverished, neglected child to a successful author. (my note: if you haven’t read it, I consider the last part of that sentence a spoiler)

It has been called his masterpiece, "the triumph of the art of Dickens", which marks a turning point in his work, the point of separation between the novels of youth and those of maturity. Though written in the first person, David Copperfield is considered to be more than an autobiographical novel, going beyond this framework in the richness of its themes and the originality of its writing. Elements of the novel follow events in Dickens's own life. It was Dickens' favourite among his own novels. In the preface to the 1867 edition, Dickens wrote, "like many fond parents, I have in my heart of hearts a favourite child. And his name is David Copperfield."
Original illustrations were by Hablot Knight Browne (Phiz). Here’s the Frontispiece from my edition.



I’ll be starting today, and hope to get it read during March.

As always, please be mindful of spoilers. If you want to discuss something that is considered “spoilerish”, like "The Butler did it" or "I can't believe that David Copperfield tweeted that horrible message!", use the following syntax:



Happy reading!

2pgmcc
Mar 1, 2019, 9:07 am

I am grateful to karenmarie for alerting me to this group read. By coincidence I mentioned that I was planning to read David Copperfield as my next Dickens and she informed me the group read was starting up. As it happens I started reading it last Friday, 22nd February. I am a relatively slow reader due to two factors; one, my not reading at a very fast rate, and the other being my only getting the chance to read on my commutes to and from work. Notwithstanding these constraints I have read 70 pages so far which has brought me almost to the end of Chapter V. There are LXIV chapters in my edition too, which is the Wordsworth Classics paperback edition published in 1992 with illustrations added in 2000. There are 774 pages in the book which includes 745 pages of story, 6 pages of footnotes, 10 pages of "Introduction" which I refuse to read before reading the story as I am almost always infuriated to find plot spoilers in Introductions which should be more correctly put at the back as critiques, afterword, or a chapter of analysis, a two page list of illustrations, a two page list of chapters, and four pages containing the general elements that come at the front of a book, a two page bibliography, one page with the preface by Dickens, and a blank page on the reverse of the preface page and in facing the first page of the story. (E&OE)

Having made a head start on the book and being almost five chapters ahead of anyone starting to read today, a lead that I am sure will be short lived, I shall ensure that any comments regarding plot or specific content are shielded by a "spoiler" mask. Not having read the book before I want to read it as the author presented it for his readers to read rather than having my impression of the book tainted by any extraneous comments that might be made in a public post and I believe I owe it to other readers to avoid colouring their impression of the book by any loose comments on my part.

I am looking forward to sharing opinions and interpretations of the book and its content with everyone on this tread. I shall post my initial thoughts and comments on the first five chapters later.

3drneutron
Mar 1, 2019, 9:23 am

Added this thread to the group wiki!

4karenmarie
Mar 1, 2019, 10:20 am

>2 pgmcc: Hi Peter and welcome! I'm so glad you're able to join us for another Dickens group read.

>3 drneutron: Thanks, Jim!

I just finished chapter 1 and am once again pulled into the intricate, layered, abundant, copious, and detailed language of Mr. Charles Dickens.

5pgmcc
Mar 1, 2019, 10:40 am

>4 karenmarie: am once again pulled into the intricate, layered, abundant, copious, and detailed language of Mr. Charles Dickens.

Well put. I have been enjoying the use of language and his unexpected turn of phrase, or unusual viewpoint, such as (from Chapter 1):

"...it was declared by the nurse, and by some sage women in the neighbourhood who had taken a lively interest in me several months before there was any possibility of our becoming personally acquainted..."

6m.belljackson
Mar 1, 2019, 11:20 am

Hi - joining the Dickens group again and will look for print copy upstairs somewhere or rely on DailyLit.com.

Thanks for starting this up again and definitely looking forward to the October selection!

7thornton37814
Mar 1, 2019, 11:40 am

I'm joining in also. It will be next week before I manage to begin reading it. I'm trying to finish up a couple of things first.

8karenmarie
Mar 1, 2019, 1:01 pm

>5 pgmcc: Thanks, Peter!

>6 m.belljackson: Yay Marianne! Glad to see you here. You're very welcome.

>7 thornton37814: Excellent, Lori!

I'm thrilled with so many folks already.

9pgmcc
Modificato: Mar 3, 2019, 10:30 am

Some thoughts so far.

I love a good controversy and I understand that David Copperfield is thought to be somewhat autobiographical but also thought possibly to be totally fictional. Regardless of the reality or otherwise of this, the book still contains the great Dickens characters and convolution of language, and I know that I can recognise the real feelings and sensations that everyone must feel when growing up with things happening around them. That being said let me progress chapter by chapter.

Chapter 1
The depiction of the world and family into which David Copperfield is born is wonderful and is achieved through the reportage of what David Copperfield was told by others as he could not have been cognizant of the event prior to his birth in any other way. As is the case with Dickens he introduces wonderfully coloured characters such as Miss Betsey and Mr Chillip.

Chapter 2
This chapter forced me back into my own earliest memories. The first clear memory I have is of being in a cot with a blanket draped over the side. I remember the cot being in my parents room and the sun shining in the window. I also remember sitting in the pews at church and wondering how long this was going to go on for. I also remember the journeys to and from church. Obviously these are the types of memories that Dickens had in his childhood and that he relates in the life of David Copperfield.

Dickens is good at telegraphing trouble. We know from the first appearance of Mr Murdstone that he is a bad egg. We also know what is going on when young Master Copperfield is sent off for two weeks in Yarmouth.


Chapter 3
I love this chapter. I think it is painted beautifully and I was on that holiday by the sea and I could smell the smells of the sea and feel the wet sand under my feet and feel the cramped conditions of the boathouse of the Peggottys. At the age of fourteen I went to spend a holiday with family in a rural part of the country by the sea. There were twenty-two family members living in a three bedroom bungalow. Four of us, teenaged boys, had to sleep in a tent in the front garden. The cozy home of the Peggottys reminded me of that holiday. We did not have hammocks in the living room but we did have cushions and sleeping bags on the floor of the living room. When those sleeping in the living room wanted to retire for the night the four teenaged boys were evicted from the house to supposedly go to the tent. That was usually about midnight and rather than heralding our slumbers it was the start of a five mile walk to the local pier where we would head to with the intention of waiting for the salmon fishermen to return from the night's work.

The end of this chapter is the first occurrence of something that happened since David's birth that will contribute to the arrival of misery in his life and that will change the course of his life.

It seemed strange to me that he was not informed of his mother's intention to marry before going on holiday. Perhaps this is something that was common at the time.

Also, I am left wondering if Peggoty's warnings about Mr Murdstone contributed to the young Mrs Copperfield agreeing to marry Mr Murdstone. Was she more inclined to say "Yes" because Peggotty disapproved?

I could not help but think that Mrs Copperfield, sorry, Mrs Murdstone, was a particularly weak character who could not stand up to any of Murdstone's actions. The abuse of her own son was not enough to have her put her foot down against this person who had taken over her life and her possessions. I am conscious of the facts of the times that marriage meant that everything she owned became the property of her husband and that she was expected to be subservient to him in every way.


Chapter 4
The highlight of this chapter for me was David biting Murdstone. I wrongly assumed this was going to be the beginning of young David starting to stand up for himself and possibly running way. I was, however, wrong.

Chapter 5
Dickens does not waste an opportunity to add characters and incidents during the long journey to London. He also adds in scenes that show how gullible the young Copperfield is; for instance, the introduction of the waiter who not only eats most of David's meal, but also takes a lot of his money. We can see the David Copperfield is an innocent abroad who is easily taken in by the simplest of conmen.

We have now reached the location of Copperfield's further humiliation and abuse. I have come to expect Dickens to present us with the misery of his protagonist's life before he starts to show any hint that life might get better.

It was while reading this chapter that I started seeing strong similarities between this book and what happened in Nicholas Nickleby.


10LizzieD
Mar 1, 2019, 11:38 pm

I'm not sure how my life will go this month, but my heart wants to join you in *DC*. I'm the proud owner of a copy of oxford Reader's Companion to Dickens
Here's the introductory paragraph to *DC*.
"Dickens's eighth novel, his first with a first-person narrator, published by Bradbury and Evans in twenty monthly parts (as nineteen) 1849-50. Considered by many, starting with Forster, to be his masterpiece, it was Dickens's own "favourite child" among his novels (1867 Preface) and draws more directly than any other on events in his life."

Here is my old Penguin's cover:


11karenmarie
Mar 2, 2019, 9:59 am

>9 pgmcc: I have read your Chapter 1 spoiler, Peter, and you're absolutely right. I have gotten distracted a bit but hope to get back to DC today.

>10 LizzieD: Hi Peggy! Lovely to see you here. I do hope you can join us, or at least follow along and share interesting tidbits.

As with the three previous Dickens group reads I've 'hosted', we'll be going several months, I think!

12m.belljackson
Mar 2, 2019, 10:36 am

>11 karenmarie:

A mention in today's online LitHub reminded me that Frederic Douglas loved reading Charles Dickens
and was so impressed by Bleak House that he printed it in his own newspaper, The North Star.

13rretzler
Mar 2, 2019, 11:53 am

I'll be joining but don't know if I'll get it done in March, so it's probably good it's going several months. I had planned to read several ARCs in March, as well, along with 2 books that I just started.

Here is my rather boring cover of the free ebook from Amazon:



and here is the Audible cover:

.

I just saw that the Kindle free version has quality issues reported, so I'm rethinking my ebook pick - I decided on the Penguin Classics edition since I know it will be good quality.



Crossing my fingers that the Penguin edition will Whispersync with the Audible edition. Off to try that now.

14luvamystery65
Mar 2, 2019, 10:59 pm

I'll be joining in soon.

15lkernagh
Mar 3, 2019, 1:18 am

I "might" join, but it all depends on how my current audioreads are going. Worse case, I will report in late. I do want to make my way through Dickens' oeuvre, but it is a bit a plog for me, so I have to space my Dickens reading out over multiple years. ;-)

16karenmarie
Mar 3, 2019, 10:25 am

>12 m.belljackson: Interesting tidbit, Marianne!

>13 rretzler: Glad to have you join us, Robin. Good luck syncing!

>14 luvamystery65: Excellent, Roberta.

>15 lkernagh: I hope you can fit it in, Lori. My personal goal is to get it read in a month, because even though I start slowly I find by the middle of a Dickens novel that I’m totally immersed and involved.

I have finished chapter two. Peter’s chapter two spoiler above is spot on.

17m.belljackson
Mar 4, 2019, 11:39 am

>16 karenmarie: >9 pgmcc:

If Betsey Trotwood will play no active role, is she introduced here only for odd humor?

What a phenomenal memory for detail which Dickens translates into universal feelings and appeal,
as we all start to feel for the lonely tombstone...

18pgmcc
Mar 4, 2019, 11:50 am

>17 m.belljackson: I have a similar feeling about Betsey. Is she Chekov’s gun? Will she be part of the proceedings going forward? Is Dickens sewing a red herring to have his readers’ thoughts leaping to a conclusion while he uses some totally unrelated element to tie up loose ends as the novel comes to a close?

I only have about 600 pages to read before I can be certain about the answers to these questions. :-)

19pgmcc
Mar 4, 2019, 4:31 pm

I am on page 123 which, in my book, is in Chapter 10.

As you would expect with Mr. Dickens, more interesting characters appear at regular stages.

Chapter 6
Chapter 6 sees David’s school friends arriving and we see he is again taken in by a strong character in the form of Steerforth. We also see another source of tyranny and anxiety, Mr Creakle, the school master.


Chapter 7
Here we see punishment being dealt to pupils for the flimsiest of excuses and again we have similarities with Nicholas Nickleby, but on this occasion it appears Mr Creakle abuses his wife and daughter unlike the headmaster in Nickleby where the headmaster was at one with his family in torturing the children.

Mr Mell, the only hope of decency in the school, is sacked and we see David losing another possible lifeline to sanity. It is obvious that Mr Mell is a “decent sort” but Steerforth exercises his superiority and position to make a show of him, betraying Copperfield’s confidence, and exposing Mell as a pauper and securing his dismissal. David is too innocent to see how he had been betrayed and is only grateful that he still has such a good friend as Steerforth. Again we see Copperfield as gullible and easily taken in. I suggest we shall see him grow out of this trait as we proceed through the story.


Chapter 8

In Chapter 8 we are shown a glimpse of the blissful life David, his mother and Peggotty used to have. They share an evening’s happiness while Murdstone and his sister are out. Everything changes when they return and we get hints of disaster to come.

It would not be a Dickens story if we did not see things getting bad, and worse, and even worse again for the main character. To date we have seen David Copperfield being distanced from his loved ones by his stepfather and his sister. It is obvious that life, while bad at this stage, is going to get worse. You can be sure Dickens would not miss an opportunity to make his main character’s plight as desperate as possible before having a great reveal towards the end that remedies the world’s problems and sees our hero live happily ever after.


Chapter 9

We do not have long to wait for the tragedy. A tragedy that will call into question not only Master Copperfield’s happiness but also will change everything in his life. The death of his mother drives him into further despair.


Chapter 10
Miss Murdstone wastes no time in distancing young David from the only close adult friend he has in his life, Peggotty. It was inevitable that the Murdstones would dismiss Peggotty as soon as David’s mother would die.

Now, at this point in the story I am wondering if Murdstone has murdered David’s mother. The episode in which Murdstone met some associates on a boat he was supposedly buying, included some language that indicates Murdstone was up to some scam by wooing Mrs Copperfield. His colleagues referred to her as the pliable widow (or words to that effect). It would appear to me that he wanted to gain access to whatever property and money had been left by the late Mr Copperfield to his wife. Under the laws at the time the property rights of a woman are transferred immediately to her husband at the time of marriage.

Driving the young bride to despair would have been a deliberate ploy to put her under their power. David would only be an incumbrance once his mother is dead.

The fact that Mr Murdstone is angry after David’s mother has died leads me to think there is some complication to the inheritance. There were a few references to Mrs Copperfield’s age. I wonder if her inheritance was tied up in some way by her late husband to ensure the inheritance was not squandered or swindled out of her. I suspect Murdstone’s anger is related to this and that he has found barriers to his easy acquisition of the loot.


20pgmcc
Mar 5, 2019, 8:54 am

>17 m.belljackson: Have you already finished the book? I see you have a review on LT from last year.

You must be enjoying seeing my inaccurate thoughts about how the story will develop. I am enjoying the journey.

21karenmarie
Mar 5, 2019, 2:38 pm

>17 m.belljackson: Hi Marianne. It will be fun to see if Miss Betsey Trotwood has any further appearance(s) – I honestly can’t remember any detail of this book at all although I did read it almost 50 years ago. I have a vague recollection of seeing a movie version and have an impression of Miss Betsey Trotwood, but if it's from the beginning of the novel or further on I can't remember. Wouldn't want to, actually, as it's though I've never read it before.

This book is touted as being autobiographical and it may be that David’s journey matches young Charles’s. The detail brings to mind details of my childhood that are not as sharply described as those here but that have come bubbling to the surface in sympathy with some of young David’s.

>18 pgmcc: Hi Peter! Well, you’ve educated me. From Wikipedia:
Chekhov's gun is a dramatic principle that states that every element in a story must be necessary, and irrelevant elements should be removed; elements should not appear to make "false promises" by never coming into play. The statement is recorded in letters by Anton Chekhov several times, with some variation.

• "Remove everything that has no relevance to the story. If you say in the first chapter that there is a rifle hanging on the wall, in the second or third chapter it absolutely must go off. If it's not going to be fired, it shouldn't be hanging there.”

• "One must never place a loaded rifle on the stage if it isn't going to go off. It's wrong to make promises you don't mean to keep." Chekhov, letter to Aleksandr Semenovich Lazarev (pseudonym of A. S. Gruzinsky), 1 November 1889. Here the "gun" is a monologue that Chekhov deemed superfluous and unrelated to the rest of the play.

• "If in the first act you have hung a pistol on the wall, then in the following one it should be fired. Otherwise don't put it there." From Gurlyand's Reminiscences of A. P. Chekhov, in Teatr i iskusstvo 1904, No. 28, 11 July, p. 521.

Note the difference between Chekhov's gun and foreshadowing. Chekhov was commenting on narrative detail and what details the writer should include. Foreshadowing only vaguely implies that an event will take place in the future, while the Chekhov's gun principle guarantees that an event will happen further along in the story.
>19 pgmcc: There are certainly many more interesting characters, all quite vividly described, even if they have a very minute or fleeting place in the story.

>20 pgmcc: It's fun to see if any of our thoughts pan out - so far I have no real predictions of the future but there are, as with all novels by Dickens, people who I would like to see get their comeuppance!

I have read the first five chapters and am happily immersed in David’s world.

22m.belljackson
Modificato: Mar 10, 2019, 6:06 pm

>20 pgmcc:

I erased 0dd duplicate post...

23m.belljackson
Mar 5, 2019, 3:18 pm

>20 pgmcc: >21 karenmarie:

Yes, I reviewed David Copperfield last year...but, February of this year marked my 75th Birthday!

so...it is mostly all new (unremembered - it might as well have been 50 years ago!), except for The Murdstones. egad.

I LOVE the early chapters.

If autobiographical, I wonder if the incident of the train will appear.

Chekhov's gun may have many of us back to reading his books next...recommendations?

24pgmcc
Mar 5, 2019, 4:54 pm

>23 m.belljackson:
I hope you had a happy 75th. I had my 62nd in February. An excellent month for a birthday. All the best people have their birthday in February. :-)

The incident with the train pops up in Drood by Dan Simmons but I would not recommend you go tracking it down. It is not worth the effort.

I got the impression you were not impressed with the Murdstones when I saw the opening comment of your review: "At last away from the Murdstones"

25thornton37814
Mar 6, 2019, 3:43 pm

My copy will arrive Saturday. I decided to purchase my own copy.

26m.belljackson
Modificato: Mar 10, 2019, 6:07 pm

>19 pgmcc:

With chapter 7,
I wonder how many of Dickens' original readers were also,
inwardly (and out loud in their pubs),
cringing as Steerforth edged toward open cruelty to Mell.

You raise some intriguing questions about Mr. Murdstone in chapter 10.
Since he already has her property from their marriage, what would he further gain if she was dead?

I figured he was angry and depressed because he no longer had a wife and child to control,
and was stuck with the responsibility of hated and hateful little David Copperfield, another man's son.

27kac522
Mar 11, 2019, 3:54 am

I read DC about 10 years ago, so I'm going to get re-acquainted with the Micawbers, et al, via audiobook, read by Simon Vance.

28pgmcc
Mar 11, 2019, 6:08 am

>26 m.belljackson:

I am currently on Chapter XVII. I have put my response to you into two "spoiler" masked sections so that you can read the direct response and, if you have not reached Chapter XVII, wait until you have read it before reading that section.

General response: I suspect you are more charitable of Mr. Murdstone that I was when I made my comments about his demeanour after David's mother's death. I believe his wooing of Mrs. Copperfield to have been a ploy to gain control of her income and nothing more. Apart from being a control freak I believe he was frustrated that he was not able to liquidate the assets while his wife as still alive. I felt his mood was due to something that had upset his plans. I cannot ascribe remorse or grief to this character. while he may have lamented not having a wife and child to control I think his mood has more financial roots.

Chapter XVII. Now I see Mr. Murdstone has disposed of the property and liquidated it. He has also removed the burden of his step-son. Perhaps I have seen/read too many Agatha Christies and the Dickens novels I have read have had quite convolute story threads, but I cannot believe that I have seen the last of Mr. Murdstone and his sister. Nor can I believe that the Murdstones will get away scot-free after their cruel and heinous behaviour. I do not think Dickens would let that happen.

29pgmcc
Mar 11, 2019, 9:54 am

I am dropping behind with my updates. Chapter XVII is my current position in the book and yet my last chapter update was Chapter X. RL is getting in the way of my posting.

30m.belljackson
Modificato: Mar 13, 2019, 2:39 pm

>29 pgmcc:

Your updates have been great as we move from Murdstones to Micawbers.

So good to see Aunt Betsey return in such a grand style!
I had forgotten her role in getting rid of The Murdstones, with her attitude and sarcasm so appropriately applied.

"Betsey" Trotwood and the donkey quirks do make Mr. Dick's less odd.

31kac522
Modificato: Mar 15, 2019, 12:40 am

I love this quote from Chapter IV describing the Murdstones:

Firmness, I may observe, was the grand quality on which both Mr. and Miss Murdstone took their stand. However I might have expressed my comprehension of it at that time, if I had been called upon, I nevertheless did clearly comprehend in my own way, that it was another name for tyranny; and for a certain gloomy, arrogant, devil’s humour, that was in them both. The creed, as I should state it now, was this. Mr.Murdstone was firm; nobody in his world was to be so firm as Mr. Murdstone; nobody else in his world was to be firm at all, for everybody was to be bent to his firmness. Miss Murdstone was an exception. She might be firm, but only by relationship, and in an inferior and tributary degree. My mother was another exception. She might be firm, and must be; but only in bearing their firmness, and firmly believing there was no other firmness upon earth.


I am now listening to Chapter V.

32pgmcc
Modificato: Mar 15, 2019, 10:43 am

>30 m.belljackson: I am glad you found the updates of interest.

I share your appreciation of Miss Betsey’s return, and am delighted it is in a style that validates the hints of tenderness and caring that were hinted at during her visit to David’s mother.

I have a lot of writing up to do. Since my last notes on Chapter X, I have read on and am now on Chapter XXIII. Real life and the desire to read on before posting have thwarted my upating. With this being St. Patrick’s Day weekend and, consequently Monday being a bank holiday, I will surely find an hour to deposit my thoughts in a post.

33pgmcc
Mar 15, 2019, 3:54 am

>31 kac522: That is a great quote. I love the way Dickens states something in a fashion that sounds like he is saying the opposite. In this example his wording could be taken to mean that firmness was a virtue until he summarises it in the one word, “tyranny”.

This style is one of the great joys I get from Dickens.

34thornton37814
Mar 15, 2019, 10:57 am

I'm somewhere around the 200 page mark in the book. I should make additional progress today.

35kac522
Mar 15, 2019, 12:41 pm

>33 pgmcc: Yes, I also enjoy this style. Because I've read the book before, I'm familiar with the story and characters. Now I am listening to it on audio, and I can pay more attention to the language, style and phrasing as someone else (in this case, the great Simon Vance) reads it to me.

36m.belljackson
Mar 15, 2019, 6:28 pm

What does Mr. Peggoty mean by "gorm?"

37kac522
Modificato: Mar 15, 2019, 6:36 pm

>36 m.belljackson: do you have a Chapter? I have the Norton Critical Edition with excellent notes; I can check.

38m.belljackson
Mar 15, 2019, 8:38 pm

Hi - thanks for the offer.

I'm reading on DailyLit.com so can't go back to deleted chapters, but this second, at least, of his "gorm" exclamations
was likely in Chapters 18 - 21.

I did an online definition search, but found no reference that made sense.

Lucky you to have a great reference!

39kac522
Modificato: Mar 15, 2019, 9:13 pm

>38 m.belljackson: I have found this in Chapter XXI, Mr. Pegotty speaking to Emily, when David and Steerforth show up at Mr Pegotty's door:

"...There's Mas'r Davy's friend, my dear! There's the gent'lman as you've heerd on, Em'ly. He comes to see you, along with Mas'r Davy, on the brightest night of your uncle's life as ever was or will be, Gorm the t'other one, and horroar for it."

This appears to be dialect, and there are no notes to explain. In my ear, I hear "Go on for" or "Go for" for "Gorm", but not sure what "horroar" is...maybe "hurry"?....anyone else have ideas?

40pgmcc
Mar 15, 2019, 9:33 pm

>39 kac522:

I suggest your "go on" in the accent is correct. "...horroar for it", would be something like hooray.

41kac522
Mar 16, 2019, 12:18 am

>40 pgmcc: yes, sounds right--thank you!

42karenmarie
Mar 16, 2019, 9:09 am

Hi all!

I've fallen behind and will read your spoilers, Peter, as I get through each chapter. I am on chapter IX, and enjoying it thoroughly (although I have taken too much time away to finish up the Frieda Klein mystery series by Nicci French.)

Once I start reading, I mentally slow down to enjoy the language. I hope to get caught up to my 2-chapter a day pace early this coming week.

43thornton37814
Mar 16, 2019, 9:23 am

I'm ready to begin chapter XXIII on page 350. Hoping to read another 100 pages or so in this and read some on another book (yet to be selected--may be non-fiction or fiction).

44m.belljackson
Mar 16, 2019, 11:45 am

>41 kac522: >40 pgmcc:

"Go on" is intriguing - just wonder how he gets to "m."

I too read "horroar" as a really LOUD and excited "hooray." It actually sounds pretty cool.

45pgmcc
Mar 16, 2019, 5:27 pm

>42 karenmarie: I am about Chapter XXIII now so will have to catch up on my notes as you are catching up on my posts.

46EllaTim
Mar 17, 2019, 9:37 am

I just started my reread yesterday, so I am lagging behind all of you. Just finished chapter two. I do vaguely remember the story line. Won't tell though;-)

Love Dickens' language, though it means I sometimes have to reread some sentences. And the book still manages to involve me, just finished Davy leaving for Plymouth, and saying goodby to his mother. I know what follows, but it makes the scene all the more touching.

Not a fast reader at the moment, will just have to see how long it's going to take, but I'm really enjoying it.

47pgmcc
Modificato: Mar 20, 2019, 10:05 am

I have not made as much progress as I would have liked over the weekend and did not get to document my thoughts as reading. I have just finished Chapter XXIX and am going to jot down a few thoughts in this drive-by post.

The same warning applies. If you have not reached Chapter XXX you may want to avoid reading behind the spoiler mask until you do.

Mr Dickens has not disappointed me in relation to the characters he has created that make me think they will return later. The first of these I wish to comment on is Miss Murdstone. When Aunt Betsey dismissed Miss Murdstone and her brother from Dover I believed we had not seen the last of then. Now Miss Murdstone has turned up as the "confidential companion" of the apple of David's eye, Miss Dora.

Miss Dora brings to life the easily led nature of Mr. Copperfield and his propensity to not see what is under his very nose. Obviously Agnes is the one for him, but he is oblivious to this, even with the knowledge that Uriah Heep is plotting to wed his Little Angel.

Agnes has put him wise to the nature of his friend, Steerforth, which was obvious to the reader from the time of David's time in the school, Salem Hall. Steerforth is also another character that was too rich to have been created and abandoned early in the tale. We learned too much about his nature in school for him to be left out of later chapters. I am glad to see David Copperfield is starting to see the cracks in Steeforth's image. I suspect Steerforth is hatching mayhem for Little Emily and her nuptials. I suspect this will be at the core of the row that sunders Copperfield from Steerforth.

Mr & Mrs Micawber have appeared a number of times and will continue to appear if I am not mistaken. At least David has realised that Micawber is not someone of financial reliability. Unfortunately his words of warning have arrived too late to save his old school friend, Traddles. That is a sad turn of affairs.

Steerforth's attitude to riding rough-shod over obstacles, i.e. people he considers of little concern, has been noticed by Copperfield and, coupled with his warning Traddles about Mr Micawber's credit worthiness, are the first signs of David Copperfield maturing.

Steerforth's attitude to people reminds me of the people marketeers are referring to nowadays as Millenials. It is interesting to see that Dickens had identified this "persona" in the 1800s.

Now, when will David realise that Dora does not have him on her radar screen and that Agnes is the best partner for him in life?


48m.belljackson
Mar 19, 2019, 10:53 am

>47 pgmcc:

The really perfect Copperfield Couple is:

Uriah and Rosa!

As the minister says "Do you take this man to be your lawful wedded husband?"

Miss D. pipes up: "Is it though, really?"

49pgmcc
Mar 19, 2019, 11:24 am

50PaulCranswick
Mar 19, 2019, 7:14 pm

>39 kac522: >40 pgmcc: >41 kac522: >44 m.belljackson:

I am certainly no expert but as someone used to colloquial english (albeit Northern english more than Dickens' Southern version) but this is my two cents' worth:

GORM - I would suggest that it means "understand". I am guessing that this is from the fairly common english usage of the word "gormless" which means lacking in reason or understanding. Take the less in gormless away therefore it should mean understand.

In old English "gorm" actually relates to the colour blue but I don't see how that could fit in the instance.

51thornton37814
Modificato: Mar 19, 2019, 7:17 pm

This article includes a theory on what it means: https://theweek.com/articles/467867/11-words-coined-by-charles-dickens

It's interesting he also coined the phrase "the creeps" in David Copperfield.

52PaulCranswick
Mar 19, 2019, 10:35 pm

>51 thornton37814: Interesting, Lori. Still think my explanation makes some sort of sense. :D

53pgmcc
Mar 20, 2019, 2:58 am

>50 PaulCranswick: That explanation fits well with a later use of “gorm” in ChapterXXX.

Gormless I am familiar with so I see where you are coming from.

54pgmcc
Mar 20, 2019, 3:02 am

>51 thornton37814: Interesting link.

55pgmcc
Modificato: Mar 20, 2019, 10:17 am

Chapter XXXI

Steerforth: The CAD; The Bounder.


To reprise Chekov's Gun the story is proving to be a veritable gun battle. All the guns are blazing.

The only character that I thought would come back but has not made a re-appearance yet, and I believe now is not likely to, is Mall, the teacher who was mistreated by Steerforth. He was obviously developed for the sole purpose of showing off Steerforth's snobbery, arrogance and distain for people he considers beneath him. I blame the mother.

56karenmarie
Mar 20, 2019, 12:55 pm

Here I am, in chapter XV, and am happily surprised to remember that this is the book where we meet Uriah Heep. Here's the bold and vivid description of him:
When the pony-chaise stopped at the door, and my eyes were intent upon the house, I saw a cadaverous face appear at a small windw on the ground floor (in a little round tower that formed one side of the house), and quickly disappear. The low arched door then opened, and the face came out. It was quite as cadaverous as it had looked in the window, through in the grain of it there was that tinge of red which is sometimes to e observed in the skins of red-haired people. It belonged to a red-haired person - a youth of fifteen, as I take it now, gut looking much older - whose hair was cropped as close as the closest stubble; who had hardly any eyebrows, and no eyelashes, and eyes of a red-brown, so unsheltered and unshaded that I remember wondering how he went to sleep. He was high-shouldered and bony; dressed in decent black, with a white wisp of a neckcloth; buttoned up to the throat; and had a long, lank, skeleton hand, which particularly attracted my attention, as he stood at the pony's head rubbing his chin with it, and looked up at us in the chaise.

57m.belljackson
Modificato: Mar 21, 2019, 10:41 am

>51 thornton37814: >52 PaulCranswick: >53 pgmcc: >36 m.belljackson:

Back to my original question after finding 3 uses of gorm by Mr. Peggoty

(and still haven't seen the chapter wherein David inquires about the etymology) -

wouldn't it be out of character for Mr. Peggoty to say he was "god-damned?" ("gormed")?

I wanted to go farther back than recent OED records,
but my two lovely 1800's James Murray Dictionaries are only "D-E" and "Ph-Py."
Does anyone have "G?"

58pgmcc
Modificato: Mar 20, 2019, 3:01 pm

>57 m.belljackson: Chapter III "I have a change"

The only subject, she informed me, on which he ever showed a violent temper or swore an oath, was this generosity of his; and if it were ever referred to, by any one of them, he struck the table a heavy blow with his right hand (had split it on one such occasion), and swore a dreadful oath that he would be ‘Gormed’ if he didn’t cut and run for good, if it was ever mentioned again. It appeared, in answer to my inquiries, that nobody had the least idea of the etymology of this terrible verb passive to be gormed; but that they all regarded it as constituting a most solemn imprecation.

Dickens, Charles . David Copperfield: (Illustrated) . Kindle Edition.

One good thing about a Kindle edition is that it can be searched electronically.

59m.belljackson
Mar 20, 2019, 3:15 pm

>58 pgmcc:

Thank you!

I remembered Mr. Peggoty's early use of "Gormed," but not at all the mention of etymology,
which is odd since my 4th graders were always given it as an extra-credit spelling word!

60pgmcc
Modificato: Mar 25, 2019, 3:53 am

Chapter XXXIII, Blissful. 6 pages in.

Mr Murdstone has appeared at David’s place of work. Do I detect history repeating itself? Is Murdstone, or Me Murder as Miss Betsey would call him, going to marry Dora?
I could see Dickens doing this with poor David’s emotions, no matter how musplaced or delusional those emotions might be.

Also, I would not be surprised at Dickens’s using a missleading chapter heading, as he did with the chapter entitled, “A memorable birrhday”, in which David is informed of his mother’s death. We shall see how blissful David is when I get to the end of this chapter.


ETA:
Phew!, Murdstone is not marrying Dora. Who is he marrying?


ETAA (Edited To Add Again):
I was wrong. Dora does return David’s feelings, at least secretly. We also have a hint that this leads to matrimony as David mentions seeing the ring he had made for Dora on his daughter’s finger.

Chapter XXXIII END.

Now I await the next carastrophe.

Note: I have passed the midpoint of the book. It will be all downhill from here on. :-)

61m.belljackson
Mar 24, 2019, 11:52 am

Daedalus Books (online and print catalogue) is offering WHAT THE DICKENS by Bryan Kozlowski -
many of Dickens' words explained with usage. $6.95

The last of Mr. Peggoty's "gorms" left me thinking he'd been "hornswoggled."

62pgmcc
Mar 25, 2019, 4:00 am

>60 pgmcc:
Having reached Chapter XXXVIII I am questioning my inference regarding the meaning of David Copperfield seeing the ring he got for Dora on his daughter’s finger. Dora is proving to be the type of non-earnest person Miss Betsey alluded to earlier. Will David realise this? Will he see how his infatuation is with Dora’s superficial beauty?

63pgmcc
Modificato: Mar 27, 2019, 2:33 pm

Chapter XLI
If David Copperfield is so blind as not to recognise how wonderful Agnes is and ends up with that dunderhead Dora it is his own fault. Dickens was quite the torturer of his reader in this regard.

64pgmcc
Mar 28, 2019, 7:14 am

Chapter XLIII

Damn! He did not listen to me. He married Dora. This is infuriating.

65m.belljackson
Mar 28, 2019, 12:29 pm

>64 pgmcc:

Hard to imagine spending a day with Dora. Once again, no accounting for falling in love.

A new favorite quote:

"By and by she put her other hand on my shoulder;
and so we both sat, looking into the past, without saying another word, until we parted for the night."

66pgmcc
Mar 28, 2019, 1:26 pm

>65 m.belljackson: Hard to imagine spending a day with Dora. Once again, no accounting for falling in love.

I agree.

67pgmcc
Mar 29, 2019, 4:01 am

Chapter XLIV Our Housekeeping
I found it hard to get through this chapter with Dora’s helplessness, a tactic to give herself an easy life. David is such a sucker.

Was Dickens trying to imply that Copperfield’s mother was like this and making a point that he married his mother? I do not know. Regardless, Dora is the thorn in my side when reading this book. Forget about Uriah Heep’s scheme to ensare Agnes, Dora is such a blot on the landscape. She is damaging my enjoyment of the book, but her presence is creating a strong emotional reaction in me. Grrrrrrrr!

:-)

68kac522
Modificato: Mar 29, 2019, 6:18 pm

>67 pgmcc: I have read that Dora is loosely based on Dickens' first "love", Maria Beadnell, who refused him. He met Maria again many years later, and he based "Flora" from Little Dorrit on this later meeting with Maria:

https://www.charlesdickensinfo.com/life/maria-beadnell/

I believe Mr & Mrs Micawber are loosely based on Dickens' parents, especially Mr. Micawber:

https://www.charlesdickensinfo.com/life/childhood/

69pgmcc
Mar 29, 2019, 6:50 pm

>68 kac522: Very interesting. I still think I would run a mile from Dora. :-)

70pgmcc
Apr 1, 2019, 4:08 am

Chapter XLVIII Domestic

I had thought it a possibility, but Dickens is being a bit brutal. I had suspected that he had been hinting that Copperfield would realise Agnes was the one for him, or at least the Dora was not, but now it appears he is taking the route I did not think he would by killing off Dora. I did not think he would do such a thing, but then it is a convenient ending for him and he can pull many tears from his readers by doing so.

I have seen it written that many people regard David Copperfield as Dickens's best book. I am not feeling so much love for this one. I certainly enjoyed the other novels much more than I am enjoying "David Copperfield". I think his Dora is probably one of my issues, both her being such a "silly thing", but more his revealing his efforts to "form her mind" and other elements of his treatment of women in general.

71m.belljackson
Apr 1, 2019, 1:08 pm

>70 pgmcc:

Odd that David Copperfield is considered to be better than Tale of Two Cities or Nicholas Nickleby...

72pgmcc
Modificato: Apr 4, 2019, 4:53 am

Chapter LVIII Absence

Dickens is starting to annoy me and Copperfield is one of the blindest characters I have come across and has dreadful judgement.

Dickens has bumped off inconvenient characters with aplomb. He was a bit too lavish with the coincidences designed to maximise the tear-jerking factor; Jip dies at the same time as Dora; Ham dies trying to save the life of the person who destroyed his romantic intentions not knowing it is he, and Steerforth dies too.

I thought it terrible that Copperfield has more thought for Steerforth's mother and Steerforth himself than for Ham whose body he abandons in Yarmouth. After what Steeforth had done to his friends, and how his character was signalled early in the book with the treatment of poor teacher, I thought it appalling that David was still remembering his old friend with affection.

In Chapter LVIII Absence, Copperfield is coming to realise what a mess he has made of his love life and realises that Agnes is the one he loves and that he believes he has thrown away any chance of winning her as his wife. If she has any sense she will tell him where to go but I fear we are heading to a happy ending in relation to Agnes and David.

I was thinking it really weird that Copperfield was sent abroad alone after all the bereavement suffered. He had no support and was wandering helplessly through his emotional turmoil. One has to wonder if Dickens thought this up as an intention of Agnes who was the main driving force behind pushing him abroad. Did she think that period of isolation would make him come to his senses and realise that she was actually the one real love of his life? Her feelings towards him have been signalled from early on and her support for him in all his emotional entanglements fits with the behaviour of a character confident in herself and biding her time for this idiot to realise what a treasure he had under his own nose.

I found Dickens's use of the term "child-wife" in respect to Dora quite disturbing. I also found it too convenient for him to kill her off from some unrevealed ailment, just the way David's mother died.

Enough said. I am not enjoying this Dickens book as much as the others I have read. If it were the first Dickens I had read I would not be much inclined to pick up another one. I can understand people thinking that Dickens put a lot of his own life into the story of David Copperfield, but then I believe his relationships with ladies may have been more in the form of Steerforth's than that of Copperfield.



Only six chapters left.

73EllaTim
Apr 4, 2019, 6:35 am

I have been doing a reread. Just finished the book. I enjoyed the start of the novel much more than this last part. I must confess I find Agnes too good to be true, and the whole contradiction between her and Dora, feels unreal, contrived.

David seeming to care more for Steerforth and his mother could be explained. As Ham has his whole village caring for him, while Steerforth's mother is a very lonely woman. Not the only consideration, I guess, this is 19th century England, so a class society, and David seems to belong in Steerforth's class.

74pgmcc
Apr 4, 2019, 7:29 am

>73 EllaTim: I guess, this is 19th century England, so a class society, and David seems to belong in Steerforth's class.

That is along the lines I was thinking.

I thought a lot of the story felt contrived, more so than other Dickens books I have read. It appeared too convenient in many ways.

I still have 75 pages to read and am waiting to see if Mr. & Miss Murdstone get their comeuppance. It would appear unbalanced if Dickens lets them off scot-free when all the other villains, and some of the good guys, suffered. Uriah and his mother appear to be in no difficult straits so I wonder if there is any more retribution to be heaped on them. (Sorry, I could not resist that.)

75Donna828
Apr 4, 2019, 1:20 pm

I finished the book yesterday and came here and read all the comments. I read the book in three different ways. I have an old print version with tiny type so I dowloaded the Project Gutenberg e-book and also the audio version performed with great charm by Simon Vance. I am not the best participant in group reads. I do appreciate all of the thoughts here and will recommend another book to better understand the early Victorian age: What Jane Austen Ate and Charles Dickens Knew. I use it as a reference book, although I may read it straight through one of these days. It is a fount of knowledge about daily life in 19th century England. It also defines gorm as "lower-class slang for 'goddamn'."

A big thank you to Peter for your in-depth observations. You get an A+ in Group Read conversations. In lieu of anecdotal musings, I'll take the easy route and post my 'vanilla' comments that I made on my thread…

Book No. 22: David Copperfield by Charles Dickens. Mine, 728 pp., 4.5 stars.

"Whether I shall turn out to be the hero of my own life, or whether that station will be held by anybody else, these pages must show. To begin my life with the beginning of my life, I record that I was born (as I have been informed and believe) on a Friday, at twelve o’clock at night. It was remarked that the clock began to strike, and I began to cry, simultaneously."

Thus begins this classic book said to be Dickens' most autobiographical work. It's interesting to note that David Copperfield's initials are the reverse of Charles Dickens. Like many 19th century English novels, David Copperfield was first published in monthly installments, which helps to explain Dickens' wordy writing style. I could tell you the summary in one paragraph yet he meanders and writes in great detail about the extensive cast of characters that wander in and out of young David's life.

I first read this book as a school assignment many, many years ago. I remember the first quarter of the book about David's impoverished childhood very well. The underprivileged of England's working classes of the early 1800's are major themes of many of his novels. I read where Dickens spent part of his childhood in debtor's prison with his family and he shared DC's experience of working in a factory at a young age. He writes very well of what he knows. My other memories are of some of his well-drawn characters. Uriah Heep in particular stands out as a classic Dickens villain.

I can't say that Dickens is a favorite author of mine. I have to be in a particular mood to read his books…and have plenty of reading time available. If I had to choose a favorite, it would be A Christmas Carol for the timely and beloved story of Scrooge. A Tale of Two Cities would probably come in as a close second because of my love of historical fiction. DC is next on my list. It is a bit like reading a soap opera about the travails of everyday life filled with humor, pathos, and drama. The setting may be archaic but some of the problems are still around. I like triumph over adversity books, and this one does just that. It shows that one can overcome the worst of obstacles and still remain a decent and caring human being. Well done, Mr. Dickens.

76pgmcc
Apr 5, 2019, 4:19 am

>75 Donna828: Thank you for my A+. That will bring my grade average up. :-)

I am on Chapter LXIII. Only ten pages left to read. I shall save those for the bus ride home this evening.


At long last. He opened his eyes and recognised Agnes as his true love. In Ireland we would classify David Copperfield as a "feckin' eejit."

I love Aunt Betsey. I think she is my favourite character in the book. She always knew what was what and what the lay of the land was. Dora was also aware of the state of affairs with regards to Agnes and Copperfield. I suspected that was the essence of the message Dora wanted to give Agnes when she was dying.

John Yorke, in his book Into the Woods, used the example of the relationship between Josh an Donna in The West Wing to describe what Dickens did with Agnes and David. He was addressing the question "Why did Donna and Josh never get together romantically given that they were obviously suited and had a wonderful relationship?" His explanation was that as soon as two such obviously suited people get together that story thread is dead and we may as well all just shut up shop and go home. It was the fact that David and Agnes did not get together until very near the end that kept us all reading, a method essential to a story that was released in serial fashion.



77pgmcc
Apr 5, 2019, 12:05 pm

Finished.

Glad to see Mells making an appearance towards the end. I was thinking Dickens had dispossd of this character once he had used him to show the real character of Steerforth.

I do not think I have anything else to add to what I have said in previous posts. I really have to read one of those biographies of Dickens that I have had for some time.

I shall tune out now and return as some comment occurs to me or one of your posts prompts me to respond.

78luvamystery65
Apr 30, 2019, 10:52 pm

I'm currently on Chapter 41. I'm mulling over my thoughts and I'll post some in a few days. I can see why so many people love this book.