Sedevacante & The One True Catholic Church (contued) Part V
Questo è il seguito della conversazione Sedevacante & The One True Catholic Church (contued) Part IV.
Questa conversazione è stata continuata da Sedevacante & The One True Catholic Church (contued) Part VI.
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3Joansknight
One who entered the parish church at Wittemberg after Luther's victory discovered that the same vestments were used for divine service as of yore, and heard the same old Latin hymns. The Host was elevated and exhibited at the Consecration. In the eyes of the people, it was the same Mass as before, despite the fact that Luther omitted all the prayers which represented the sacred function of the Sacrifice. The people were intentionally kept in the dark on this point. "We cannot draw the common people away from the Sacrament, and it will probably be thus until the Gospel is well understood," said Luther. The rite of celebration of the Mass, he explained, is a "purely external thing," and said further that "the damnable words referring to the Sacrifice could be omitted all the more readily, since the ordinary Christian would not notice the omission and hence there was no danger of scandal."
- Hartmann Grisar, S.J.
- Hartmann Grisar, S.J.
4Joansknight
The devil has always attempted, by means of the heretics, to deprive the world of the Mass, making them precursors of Antichrist, who, before anything else, will try to abolish and will actually abolish the Holy Sacrament of the altar, as a punishment for the sins of men, according to the prediction of Daniel "And strength was given him against the continual sacrifice" (Daniel 8:12).
- Saint Alphonsus Liguori, Doctor of the Church (1696-1787)
I am sure that is simply his INTERPRETATION....
5Joansknight
"Our duty as Catholics is to know the TRUTH; to live the TRUTH; to defend the TRUTH; to share the TRUTH with others; and to suffer for the TRUTH." ~Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.
6Joansknight
“But the Lord is the true God: he is the living God, and the everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his threatening.” (Jeremias 10:10)
7Joansknight
Saint Athanasius, to whom it was objected, "You have the bishops against you," answered with Faith: "that proves that they are all against the Church."
- Saint Athanasius (ca. 296-373)
9Joansknight
Pope Pius XI (1929): “To this magisterium the teaching authority of the Church Christ the Lord imparted immunity from error, together with the command to teach His doctrine to all.” (Divini Illius Magistri)
10MMcM
>9 Joansknight: A document that has not aged particularly well.
Similmente erroneo e pernicioso per l'educazione cristiana è il così detto metodo della "coeducazione" fondato anch'esso, per molti, sul naturalismo negatore del peccato originale, oltre che, per tutti i sostenitori di questo metodo, su una deplorevole confusione di idee che scambia la legittima convivenza umana con la promiscuità ed eguaglianza livellatrice.
11Joansknight
>10 MMcM: I do NOT know Latin....it does NOT truly matter though....since you ARE obviously a HERETIC!
12Joansknight
I guess John has NO response.....very sad!
13John5918
>12 Joansknight:
Not much point responding to you as you rarely listen. But I'm wondering how you deduce that MMcM is "obviously a HERETIC" based on him posting a text (as you frequently do yourself) in Latin (which you admit you don't understand anyway).
Not much point responding to you as you rarely listen. But I'm wondering how you deduce that MMcM is "obviously a HERETIC" based on him posting a text (as you frequently do yourself) in Latin (which you admit you don't understand anyway).
14rolandperkins
"...posting a text in Latin" (10-11, 13)
b t w, #10 is in Italian, not Latin. It is against "Co-education". I donʻt see that it is either orthodox* or heretical, but I suspect the unnamed author might be Pius XI, a favorite of Joansknight
As I remember them, b t w Joansknight ʻs
papal quotations have mostly been quoted in English.
*though it doesnʻt keep up with the Church of the past century or so.
b t w, #10 is in Italian, not Latin. It is against "Co-education". I donʻt see that it is either orthodox* or heretical, but I suspect the unnamed author might be Pius XI, a favorite of Joansknight
As I remember them, b t w Joansknight ʻs
papal quotations have mostly been quoted in English.
*though it doesnʻt keep up with the Church of the past century or so.
16LesMiserables
We would all do well to read the Rule of St. Benedict.
17John5918
>16 LesMiserables:
I love the Rule of St Benedict. If it has one weakness, though, it is the over-emphasis on the rule of obedience to superiors. As we have seen with the sexual abuse scandal in the English Benedictine monasteries (and elsewhere), the exercise of authority by abbots needs to have checks and balances.
I love the Rule of St Benedict. If it has one weakness, though, it is the over-emphasis on the rule of obedience to superiors. As we have seen with the sexual abuse scandal in the English Benedictine monasteries (and elsewhere), the exercise of authority by abbots needs to have checks and balances.
18LesMiserables
>17 John5918:
Hi John, not sure if that was a weakness. The probably unstated but intended emphasis is on obedience to "lawful" commands etc.
As a priest once told be, bad laws are not laws.
Hi John, not sure if that was a weakness. The probably unstated but intended emphasis is on obedience to "lawful" commands etc.
As a priest once told be, bad laws are not laws.
19John5918
>18 LesMiserables:
Yes, I would agree with you in the sense that the Rule assumes that the abbots are wise and upright men who will take the necessary decisions in any situations, including that of child sexual abuse. Unfortunately not.
Yes, I would agree with you in the sense that the Rule assumes that the abbots are wise and upright men who will take the necessary decisions in any situations, including that of child sexual abuse. Unfortunately not.
20LesMiserables
>19 John5918:
I'm not sure we're aiming at the same thing.
All I'm saying is that obedience does not mean obeying unlawful commands.
A Church leader who issues sinful instructions must not be obeyed.
I'm not sure we're aiming at the same thing.
All I'm saying is that obedience does not mean obeying unlawful commands.
A Church leader who issues sinful instructions must not be obeyed.
21John5918
>20 LesMiserables:
Right. But that's rather difficult for young monks who are trained to assume that their abbot gives lawful commands. And given the state of ignorance about child sexual abuse in earlier times, it might not be clear to many of the monks, even the older ones, that an abbot who orders a cover up and simply sends the offending monk to another monastery to abuse more schoolboys there is issuing unlawful orders. It certainly wasn't clear to many priests and bishops until relatively recently, and there are still a few who can't seem to tell the difference.
Right. But that's rather difficult for young monks who are trained to assume that their abbot gives lawful commands. And given the state of ignorance about child sexual abuse in earlier times, it might not be clear to many of the monks, even the older ones, that an abbot who orders a cover up and simply sends the offending monk to another monastery to abuse more schoolboys there is issuing unlawful orders. It certainly wasn't clear to many priests and bishops until relatively recently, and there are still a few who can't seem to tell the difference.
22LesMiserables
>21 John5918:
I doubt very much that any innocent God fearing Christian, whether ordained or laity, would countenance silence concerning rape and other heinous abuse, and be clear in their conscience.
That defence, one of I was only obeying orders, is hide behind the tail of Satan on a kind of Führerprinzip principle.
People may claim that they were 'unclear' but their conscience back then and now will tell them otherwise.
I doubt very much that any innocent God fearing Christian, whether ordained or laity, would countenance silence concerning rape and other heinous abuse, and be clear in their conscience.
That defence, one of I was only obeying orders, is hide behind the tail of Satan on a kind of Führerprinzip principle.
People may claim that they were 'unclear' but their conscience back then and now will tell them otherwise.
23John5918
>22 LesMiserables:
Indeed. And yet for many decades, if not centuries, many innocent God fearing Christians, ordained and laity, did countenance silence, or at least when they raised the issue they accepted the explanations and excuses for silence given by their bishops, priests, religious superiors and abbots. Whether or not they were clear in their conscience is not for me to judge, but the rules of the church (including the rule of Benedict) did not appear to give them encouragement and support in taking the matter further, especially when secular society also favoured and protected the powerful.
Indeed. And yet for many decades, if not centuries, many innocent God fearing Christians, ordained and laity, did countenance silence, or at least when they raised the issue they accepted the explanations and excuses for silence given by their bishops, priests, religious superiors and abbots. Whether or not they were clear in their conscience is not for me to judge, but the rules of the church (including the rule of Benedict) did not appear to give them encouragement and support in taking the matter further, especially when secular society also favoured and protected the powerful.
24LesMiserables
>23 John5918:
We're probably at a brick wall on this, but my final comment is that anyone who needs 'encouragement' to speak up when they are a witness to the above abuses, is complicit and a tacitly consenting bystander.
I'm comfortable in judging them.
We're probably at a brick wall on this, but my final comment is that anyone who needs 'encouragement' to speak up when they are a witness to the above abuses, is complicit and a tacitly consenting bystander.
I'm comfortable in judging them.
25John5918
>24 LesMiserables:
Yes, I doubt whether there's much point in pursuing it too much further. I'm just not sure that being judgemental helps much in a real situation where, de facto, many tens of thousands of Catholics at all levels over many decades have been subdued into silence about the sexual abuse scandal by the combined weight of the church's rules and the patriarchal secular society. While people must be responsible for their actions and omissions, that alone is not enough to resolve systemic problems unless the systemic factors are also addressed. Adapting both the rules and the society to be more conducive towards openness about sexual abuse is actually working in real life in terms of reducing sexual abuse and preventing cover-ups.
Yes, I doubt whether there's much point in pursuing it too much further. I'm just not sure that being judgemental helps much in a real situation where, de facto, many tens of thousands of Catholics at all levels over many decades have been subdued into silence about the sexual abuse scandal by the combined weight of the church's rules and the patriarchal secular society. While people must be responsible for their actions and omissions, that alone is not enough to resolve systemic problems unless the systemic factors are also addressed. Adapting both the rules and the society to be more conducive towards openness about sexual abuse is actually working in real life in terms of reducing sexual abuse and preventing cover-ups.
26Joansknight
et nolite conformari huic saeculo sed reformamini in novitate sensus vestri ut probetis quae sit voluntas Dei bona et placens et perfecta
27John5918
>26 Joansknight:
Just looked that up online and I assume it is Romans 12:2 from the Vulgate version? Could you explain your point in quoting a biblical text in Latin which was not originally written in Latin?
Just looked that up online and I assume it is Romans 12:2 from the Vulgate version? Could you explain your point in quoting a biblical text in Latin which was not originally written in Latin?
28Joansknight
>27 John5918: It is a good quote....I like it! Is there something wrong with the Vulgate or Latin....which is the language of the Church!?!? More people should follow the advice of Romans 12:2....
29Joansknight
Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 5), June 29, 1896: “The Church of Christ, therefore, is one and the same for ever; those who leave it depart from the will and command of Christ, the Lord – leaving the path of salvation they enter on that path of perdition… He who observes not this unity observes not the law of God, holds not the faith of the Father and the Son, clings not to life and salvation.”
30John5918
>28 Joansknight:
Just seems strange to me to quote a text in Latin instead of its original language, especially when you have stated that you don't understand Latin. It may make sense to quote a Latin text when that is the original language (ie many church teaching documents), so as to remain faithful to the original text, as MMcM has done from time to time, but I wondered why you chose Latin in this case.
>29 Joansknight:
Ah yes, unity. "He who observes not this unity observes not the law of God, holds not the faith of the Father and the Son, clings not to life and salvation.” Breaking away and claiming sede vacante does not look to me much like observing unity.
Just seems strange to me to quote a text in Latin instead of its original language, especially when you have stated that you don't understand Latin. It may make sense to quote a Latin text when that is the original language (ie many church teaching documents), so as to remain faithful to the original text, as MMcM has done from time to time, but I wondered why you chose Latin in this case.
>29 Joansknight:
Ah yes, unity. "He who observes not this unity observes not the law of God, holds not the faith of the Father and the Son, clings not to life and salvation.” Breaking away and claiming sede vacante does not look to me much like observing unity.
31Joansknight
>30 John5918: As I said....Latin is the language of the Church....so I assume you have problems with Latin and the Vulgate....I was raised in the NOVUS ORDO APOSTASY....they do NOT care about Latin....so I never learned it! I do have and English Vulgate bible though....unlike you!
32Joansknight
I may have asked this in the past....but....does your HERETICAL church have the "blessed sacrament" off to the side....does your Protestant "table" have the relics of a saint embedded with in it?!?
33Joansknight
>30 John5918: I think I am safe to assume you prefer your Protestant Bible more....
34Joansknight
>30 John5918: Romans 12:2 IS very relevant in this day and age....like you and the rest of society....you desire to follow the WAYS of MAN and NOT Christ our Lord....you can NOT even say the name JESUS....I can....I follow His Church....
35Joansknight
>30 John5918: I suppose you ARE sleeping now....I am sure you can sleep....I can NOT!
36Joansknight
>30 John5918: you would be wise to read the Vulgate and Denzinger....
37Joansknight
>30 John5918: beata gens cuius Dominus Deus eius populus quem elegit in hereditatem sibi....there is NO nation or people who qualify for this except the TRUE believers of Christ's Church....
38Joansknight
>30 John5918: you have NEVER uttered or defended our LORD's name....shame on you....is anti-pope Francis that important to you!?!?
39Joansknight
>30 John5918: Is sleeping soundly for the simple fact that he follows a HERETICAL religion and REJECTS ROM 12:2....God save his soul....and mine! Out of the SEVEN SACRAMENTS of the HOLY ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH....I have ONLY received two VALIDLY....HELL is also at my doorstep!
40John5918
Oh dear, what a lot of assumptions. As it happens, I have a Douay Bible (an English translation of the Vulgate), which was the bible of my childhood days, but as a translation of a translation made at a time when many modern tanslation tools were not available to us there's no doubt it is not the most accurate version. For everyday use I favour the Jerusalem Bible.
I think Latin is a beautiful language and in fact I'm sorry I only ever did one year of Latin. However I believe that it is better for people to pray and to understand their faith in their own language.
In my fairly nomadic life I have worshipped in many Catholic churches in many countries on four continents, and I believe most of them have the tabernacle in a prominent position, and have a saint's relic set into the altar. There are probably exceptions.
Not sure really what you're on about with this stuff about "you can NOT even say the name JESUS" and "you have NEVER uttered or defended our LORD's name". Really? NEVER? In a missionary career spanning more than forty years? Have you been looking over my shoulder all that time and making notes?
Indeed Romans 12:2 is important. It recommends unity, not breaking away and declaring sede vacante because you don't like the mainstream Church.
I think Latin is a beautiful language and in fact I'm sorry I only ever did one year of Latin. However I believe that it is better for people to pray and to understand their faith in their own language.
In my fairly nomadic life I have worshipped in many Catholic churches in many countries on four continents, and I believe most of them have the tabernacle in a prominent position, and have a saint's relic set into the altar. There are probably exceptions.
Not sure really what you're on about with this stuff about "you can NOT even say the name JESUS" and "you have NEVER uttered or defended our LORD's name". Really? NEVER? In a missionary career spanning more than forty years? Have you been looking over my shoulder all that time and making notes?
Indeed Romans 12:2 is important. It recommends unity, not breaking away and declaring sede vacante because you don't like the mainstream Church.
41Joansknight
>40 John5918: You reject the TRUE Bible....you REJECT Christ's Church....HERETIC!
42Joansknight
>40 John5918: Like I said....you can NOT even utter our LORD'S name....
43Joansknight
>40 John5918: By the way....Baptism & Confession ARE the ONLY two VALDILY Sacraments I have received!
44John5918
>41 Joansknight: You reject the TRUE Bible
The bible is a series of documents written in Hebrew and Greek. The Vulgate was a brave and creditable effort to translate it into Latin using the tools available to the saints of that era. Later that translation was translated again into languages such as English. Now we have English bibles translated directly from the original source material. They are thus more accurate. I don't think stating this simple fact is a rejection. The Vulgate is an important part of our tradition, but that does not mean that our understanding of the bible cannot be deepened.
>42 Joansknight: you can NOT even utter our LORD'S name
What on earth are you on about? Even just in mass and daily prayer the name of the Lord and Jesus are uttered regularly. You come over as being hsterical and, to be frank, nonsensical.
The bible is a series of documents written in Hebrew and Greek. The Vulgate was a brave and creditable effort to translate it into Latin using the tools available to the saints of that era. Later that translation was translated again into languages such as English. Now we have English bibles translated directly from the original source material. They are thus more accurate. I don't think stating this simple fact is a rejection. The Vulgate is an important part of our tradition, but that does not mean that our understanding of the bible cannot be deepened.
>42 Joansknight: you can NOT even utter our LORD'S name
What on earth are you on about? Even just in mass and daily prayer the name of the Lord and Jesus are uttered regularly. You come over as being hsterical and, to be frank, nonsensical.
45Joansknight
>40 John5918: Sleeps soundly....knowing he is a HERETIC....knowing he REJECTS Christ's Church....
46Joansknight
>44 John5918: See....you can NOT even say JESUS....which is the greatest prayer one can say!
47John5918
>43 Joansknight: By the way....Baptism & Confession ARE the ONLY two VALDILY Sacraments I have received!
I would be rather surprised at that, but please explain further. Baptism can be validly given even by laity, but confession needs an ordained priest. If you had access to a validly ordained priest then I'm surprised you did not also have access to Mass. As for confirmation, although you are not as old as me, I suspect that many of the bishops who were around at the time when you would have been due for confirmation were from the pre-Vatican II era and thus presumably you would consider them capable of conferring valid sacraments.
I think you might also need to distinguish between a valid and a licit sacrament. You and your sedevacantists might consider sacraments conferred by what you refer to as Novo Ordus clergy to be illicit, but if those priests and bishops were ordained before whatever cut-off date you and your sedevacantist choose (whether that be the 1958 conclave or the beginning of Vatican II) then anything they do remains valid even if in your eyes it is illicit.
Or, looking at it from the perspective of the Church, I don't actually know what the canonical status of your priests is, but as long as they are validly ordained then they are conferring valid sacraments even if they are doing so illicitly.
Feels like I've fallen down the rabbit hole or gone through the mirror with Alice. Is this what the conversation at the Mad Hatter's tea party is like? I wonder how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
I would be rather surprised at that, but please explain further. Baptism can be validly given even by laity, but confession needs an ordained priest. If you had access to a validly ordained priest then I'm surprised you did not also have access to Mass. As for confirmation, although you are not as old as me, I suspect that many of the bishops who were around at the time when you would have been due for confirmation were from the pre-Vatican II era and thus presumably you would consider them capable of conferring valid sacraments.
I think you might also need to distinguish between a valid and a licit sacrament. You and your sedevacantists might consider sacraments conferred by what you refer to as Novo Ordus clergy to be illicit, but if those priests and bishops were ordained before whatever cut-off date you and your sedevacantist choose (whether that be the 1958 conclave or the beginning of Vatican II) then anything they do remains valid even if in your eyes it is illicit.
Or, looking at it from the perspective of the Church, I don't actually know what the canonical status of your priests is, but as long as they are validly ordained then they are conferring valid sacraments even if they are doing so illicitly.
Feels like I've fallen down the rabbit hole or gone through the mirror with Alice. Is this what the conversation at the Mad Hatter's tea party is like? I wonder how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
48John5918
>46 Joansknight: See....you can NOT even say JESUS
See >44 John5918:. Jesus, admittedly without the capital letters.
See >44 John5918:. Jesus, admittedly without the capital letters.
49Joansknight
>48 John5918: Honestly....who IS you LORD?!? Christ or Francis....an anti-pope....you are blessed....I need to go....
50Joansknight
>48 John5918: Silence speaks a thousand words....
51John5918
>49 Joansknight:
I don't think you'll find many Catholics who think a pope, any pope, is God. Where do you get that idea? And I think you'll find most Catholics accept the creed, and regularly pray traditional prayers which frequently refer to Jesus Christ as Lord. Why on earth are you making such an issue of this?
I don't think you'll find many Catholics who think a pope, any pope, is God. Where do you get that idea? And I think you'll find most Catholics accept the creed, and regularly pray traditional prayers which frequently refer to Jesus Christ as Lord. Why on earth are you making such an issue of this?
52Joansknight
>51 John5918: Is Christ your LORD or NOT....simple question!?!?
53John5918
>52 Joansknight:
I think I already answered that question in >51 John5918:. As a Catholic I confess the Nicean and Apostles Creeds. Satisfied?
You know, how many times a day you say Lord or Jesus is not a measure of heresy.
I think I already answered that question in >51 John5918:. As a Catholic I confess the Nicean and Apostles Creeds. Satisfied?
You know, how many times a day you say Lord or Jesus is not a measure of heresy.
54Joansknight
>53 John5918: UNACCEPTABLE....Profession of Catholic Faith
Promulgated solemnly by Pope Pius IV and the Council of Trent
● I, N., with firm faith believe and profess each and every article contained in the symbol of faith which the holy Roman Church uses; namely:
● I believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible; and in
● one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages; God from God, light from light, true God from true God; begotten not made, of one substance (consubstantial) with the Father, through whom all things were made;
● who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was made incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man.
● He was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, died, and was buried; and
● He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven;
● He sits at the right hand of the Father, and He shall come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and of His kingdom there will be no end.
● And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord, and giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who equally with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified; who spoke through the prophets.
● And I believe that there is one, holy, Catholic, and apostolic Church.
● I confess one baptism for the remission of sins; and I hope for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
● I resolutely accept and embrace the apostolic and ecclesiastical traditions and the other practices and regulations of that same Church.
● In like manner I accept Sacred Scripture according to the meaning which has been held by holy Mother Church and which she now holds. It is Her prerogative to pass judgment on the true meaning and interpretation of Sacred Scripture. And I will never accept or interpret it in a manner different from the unanimous agreement of the Fathers.
● I also acknowledge that there are truly and properly seven sacraments of the New Law, instituted by Jesus Christ our Lord, and that they are necessary for the salvation of the human race, although it is not necessary for each individual to receive them all.
● I acknowledge that the seven sacraments are: Baptism, Confirmation, Eucharist, Penance, Extreme Unction, Holy Orders, and Matrimony; and that they confer grace; and that of the seven, Baptism, Confirmation, and Holy Orders cannot be repeated without committing a sacrilege.
● I also accept and acknowledge the customary and approved rites of the Catholic Church in the solemn administration of these sacraments.
● I embrace and accept each and every article on Original Sin and Justification declared and defined in the most holy Council of Trent.
● I likewise profess that in Mass a true, proper, and propitiatory sacrifice is offered to God on behalf of the living and the dead, and that the Body and Blood together with the Soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ is truly, really, and substantially present in the most holy Sacrament of the Eucharist, and that there is a change of the whole substance of the bread into the Body, and of the whole substance of the wine into the Blood; and this change the Catholic Church calls transubstantiation.
● I also profess that the whole and entire Christ and a true Sacrament is received under each separate species.
● I firmly hold that there is a purgatory, and that the souls detained there are helped by the prayers of the faithful.
● I likewise hold that the saints reigning together with Christ should be honored and invoked, that they offer prayers to God on our behalf, and that their relics should be venerated.
● I firmly assert that images of Christ, of the Mother of God ever Virgin, and of the other saints should be owned and kept, and that due honor and veneration should be given to them.
● I affirm that the power of indulgences was left in the keeping of the Church by Christ, and that the use of indulgences is very beneficial to Christians.
● I acknowledge the holy, Catholic, and apostolic Roman Church as the mother and teacher of all churches; and…
● I unhesitatingly accept and profess all the doctrines (especially those concerning the primacy of the Roman Pontiff and his infallible teaching authority) handed down, defined, and explained by the sacred canons and ecumenical councils and especially those of this most holy Council of Trent (and by the ecumenical Vatican Council I). And at the same time:
● I condemn, reject, and anathematize everything that is contrary to those propositions, and all heresies without exception that have been condemned, rejected, and anathematized by the Church.
● I, N., promise, vow, and swear that, with God’s help, I shall most constantly hold and profess this true Catholic faith, outside which no one can be saved and which I now freely profess and truly hold. With the help of God, I shall profess it whole and unblemished to my dying breath; and, to the best of my ability, I shall see to it that my subjects or those entrusted to me by virtue of my office hold it, teach it, and preach it. So help me God and His holy Gospel.
Promulgated solemnly by Pope Pius IV and the Council of Trent
● I, N., with firm faith believe and profess each and every article contained in the symbol of faith which the holy Roman Church uses; namely:
● I believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible; and in
● one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages; God from God, light from light, true God from true God; begotten not made, of one substance (consubstantial) with the Father, through whom all things were made;
● who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was made incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man.
● He was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, died, and was buried; and
● He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven;
● He sits at the right hand of the Father, and He shall come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and of His kingdom there will be no end.
● And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord, and giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who equally with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified; who spoke through the prophets.
● And I believe that there is one, holy, Catholic, and apostolic Church.
● I confess one baptism for the remission of sins; and I hope for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
● I resolutely accept and embrace the apostolic and ecclesiastical traditions and the other practices and regulations of that same Church.
● In like manner I accept Sacred Scripture according to the meaning which has been held by holy Mother Church and which she now holds. It is Her prerogative to pass judgment on the true meaning and interpretation of Sacred Scripture. And I will never accept or interpret it in a manner different from the unanimous agreement of the Fathers.
● I also acknowledge that there are truly and properly seven sacraments of the New Law, instituted by Jesus Christ our Lord, and that they are necessary for the salvation of the human race, although it is not necessary for each individual to receive them all.
● I acknowledge that the seven sacraments are: Baptism, Confirmation, Eucharist, Penance, Extreme Unction, Holy Orders, and Matrimony; and that they confer grace; and that of the seven, Baptism, Confirmation, and Holy Orders cannot be repeated without committing a sacrilege.
● I also accept and acknowledge the customary and approved rites of the Catholic Church in the solemn administration of these sacraments.
● I embrace and accept each and every article on Original Sin and Justification declared and defined in the most holy Council of Trent.
● I likewise profess that in Mass a true, proper, and propitiatory sacrifice is offered to God on behalf of the living and the dead, and that the Body and Blood together with the Soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ is truly, really, and substantially present in the most holy Sacrament of the Eucharist, and that there is a change of the whole substance of the bread into the Body, and of the whole substance of the wine into the Blood; and this change the Catholic Church calls transubstantiation.
● I also profess that the whole and entire Christ and a true Sacrament is received under each separate species.
● I firmly hold that there is a purgatory, and that the souls detained there are helped by the prayers of the faithful.
● I likewise hold that the saints reigning together with Christ should be honored and invoked, that they offer prayers to God on our behalf, and that their relics should be venerated.
● I firmly assert that images of Christ, of the Mother of God ever Virgin, and of the other saints should be owned and kept, and that due honor and veneration should be given to them.
● I affirm that the power of indulgences was left in the keeping of the Church by Christ, and that the use of indulgences is very beneficial to Christians.
● I acknowledge the holy, Catholic, and apostolic Roman Church as the mother and teacher of all churches; and…
● I unhesitatingly accept and profess all the doctrines (especially those concerning the primacy of the Roman Pontiff and his infallible teaching authority) handed down, defined, and explained by the sacred canons and ecumenical councils and especially those of this most holy Council of Trent (and by the ecumenical Vatican Council I). And at the same time:
● I condemn, reject, and anathematize everything that is contrary to those propositions, and all heresies without exception that have been condemned, rejected, and anathematized by the Church.
● I, N., promise, vow, and swear that, with God’s help, I shall most constantly hold and profess this true Catholic faith, outside which no one can be saved and which I now freely profess and truly hold. With the help of God, I shall profess it whole and unblemished to my dying breath; and, to the best of my ability, I shall see to it that my subjects or those entrusted to me by virtue of my office hold it, teach it, and preach it. So help me God and His holy Gospel.
55Joansknight
Pope Leo XIII (1886): “Everyone knows how inimical to virtue these times are and how the Church is attacked. We have much to fear amid such dangers, lest a shaken faith languish even where it has taken strong and deep roots. It is enough to recall rationalism and naturalism, those deadly sources of evil whose teachings are everywhere freely distributed. We must then add the many allurements of corruption: the opposition to or open defection from the Church by public officials, the bold obstinacy of secret societies, here and there a curriculum for the education of youth without regard for God.” (Quod multum #3)
....and upon this Rock (The Vatican)....the NOVUS ORDO church has perpetuated an abomination to God....and those who have chosen to keep their faith in this deception....have lost the right to Eternal Salvation....
....and upon this Rock (The Vatican)....the NOVUS ORDO church has perpetuated an abomination to God....and those who have chosen to keep their faith in this deception....have lost the right to Eternal Salvation....
56Joansknight
The Vision Of Pope Leo XIII October 13, 1884 Exactly 33 years to the day prior to the great Miracle of the Sun in Fatima, that is, on October 13, 1884, Pope Leo XIII had a remarkable vision. When the aged Pontiff had finished celebrating Mass in his private Vatican Chapel, attended by a few Cardinals and members of the Vatican staff, he suddenly stopped at the foot of the altar. He stood there for about 10 minutes, as if in a trance, his face ashen white. Then, going immediately from the Chapel to his office, he composed the prayer to St. Michael, with instructions it be said after all Low Masses everywhere. When asked what had happened, he explained that, as he was about to leave the foot of the altar, he suddenly heard voices - two voices, one kind and gentle, the other guttural and harsh. They seemed to come from near the tabernacle. As he listened, he heard the following conversation: Let us think about this for a minute. This happened in 1884. The devil said he needed 75 to100 years. Well, 75 years from 1884 is 1959. Wow, what a coincidence that it was on January 25, 1959, that John XXIII publicly summoned the Second Vatican Council. Remember that after the vision, Pope Leo XIII immediately wrote the Prayer to St. Michael to help us overcome the devil in his quest. He instructed that it be said after every low Mass. One of the first changes to come from Vatican II, was the deletion of the Leonine Prayers which included the prayer to St. Michael. These prayers were eliminated in 1964, the 80th year of the devils 75 - 100 years needed to destroy the Catholic Church. It would seem that this would be the time to especially say that prayer, not to delete it. The 100th year would be 1984. By 1984 John Paul II had let the devil develop a church that is called Catholic, but is not. The devil has twisted and distorted church teachings so much that there truly is a brand new church, a new order (Novus Ordo) and the true church has been reduced in population to a mere shell of what it once was, but it will survive: "That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world." Matt. 16:18 & 28:20 Here is the original version of the prayer to St. Michael, written by Pope Leo XIII in 1884. The shorter version follows, which is the version said after low Masses. Prayer to Saint Michael the Archangel Most glorious Prince of the Heavenly Armies, Saint Michael the Archangel, defend us in “our battle against principalities and powers, against the rulers of this world of darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in high places” (Ephes., VI, 12). Come to the assistance of men whom God has created to His likeness and whom He has redeemed at a great price from the tyranny of the devil. Holy Church venerates thee as her guardian and protector; to thee, the Lord has entrusted the souls of the redeemed to be led into heaven. Pray therefore the God of Peace to crush Satan beneath our feet, that he may no longer retain men captive and do injury to the Church. Offer our prayers to the Most High, that without delay they may draw His mercy down upon us; take hold of the dragon, “the old serpent, which is the devil and Satan,” bind him and cast him into the bottomless pit “so that he may no longer seduce the nations” (Apoc. XX.2). In the Name of Jesus Christ, our God and Lord, strengthened by the intercession of the Immaculate Virgin Mary, Mother of God, of Blessed Michael the Archangel, of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul and all the Saints, we confidently undertake to repulse the attacks and deceits of the devil. "Let God arise, let His enemies be scattered; let those who hate Him flee before Him. As smoke is driven away, so drive them away; as wax melts before the fire, so the wicked perish at the presence of God. " (Ps. 67) V. Behold the Cross of the Lord, flee bands of enemies. R. He has conquered, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the offspring of David. V. May Thy mercy, Lord, descend upon us. R. As great as our hope in Thee. (at the "+" make the sign of the Cross) We drive you from us, whoever you may be, every unclean spirit, all satanic powers, all infernal invaders, all wicked legions, assemblies and sects; in the Name and by the power of Our Lord Jesus Christ, + may you be snatched away and driven from the Church of God and from the souls made to the image and likeness of God and redeemed by the Precious Blood of the Divine Lamb. + Most cunning serpent, you shall no more dare to deceive the human race, persecute the Church, torment God’s elect and sift them as wheat. + The Most High God commands you. + He with whom, in your great insolence, you still claim to be equal, “He who wants all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim., 11.4). God the Father commands you. + God the Son commands you. + God the Holy Ghost commands you. + Christ, God’s Word made flesh, commands you. + He who to save our race outdone through your envy, humbled Himself, becoming obedient even unto death” (Phil, 11,8); He who has built His Church on the firm rock and declared that the gates of hell shall not prevail against Her, because He will dwell with Her “all days even to the end of the world” (St. Mat., XXVIII,20). The sacred Sign of the Cross commands you, + as does also the power of the mysteries of the Christian Faith. + The glorious Mother of God, the Virgin Mary, commands you. + She who by her humility and from the first moment of her immaculate Conception, crushed your proud head. The faith of the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul and of the other Apostles commands you. + The blood of the Martyrs and the pious intercession of all the Saints command you. + Thus, cursed dragon, and you, diabolical legions, we adjure you by the living God, + by the true God, + by the holy God, + by the God “who so loved the world that He gave up His only Son, that every soul believing in Him might not perish but have life everlasting” (St. John, III); stop deceiving human creatures and pouring out to them the poison of eternal damnation; stop harming the Church and hindering her liberty. Begone, Satan, inventor and master of all deceit, enemy of man’s salvation. Give place to Christ in whom you have found none of your works; give place to the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church acquired by Christ at the price of His Blood. Stoop beneath the all-powerful Hand of God; tremble and flee when we invoke the Holy and terrible Name of Jesus, this Name which causes hell to tremble, this Name to which the Virtues, Powers and Dominations of Heaven are humbly submissive, this Name which the Cherubim and Seraphim praise unceasingly repeating: Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord, the God of Armies. V. O Lord, hear my prayer. R. And let my cry come unto Thee. V. May the Lord be with thee. R. And with thy spirit. Let us pray. God of Heaven, God of earth, God of Angels, God of Archangels, God of Patriarchs, God of Prophets, God of Apostles, God of Martyrs, God of Confessors, God of Virgins, God who has power to give life after death and rest after work, because there is no other God than Thee and there can be no other, for Thou art the Creator of all things, visible and invisible, of whose reign there shall be no end, we humbly prostrate ourselves before Thy glorious Majesty and we beseech Thee to deliver us by Thy power from all the tyranny of the infernal spirits, from their snares, their lies and their furious wickedness; deign, O Lord, to grant us Thy powerful protection and to keep us safe and sound. We beseech Thee through Jesus Christ Our Lord. Amen. From the snares of the devil, deliver us, O Lord. That Thy Church may serve Thee in peace and liberty, we beseech Thee to hear us. That Thou may crush down all enemies of Thy Church, we beseech Thee to hear us. (Holy water is sprinkled in the place where we may be.) The Shorter Version (Said after Low Mass) Saint Michael, the Archangel, defend us in battle; be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray, and do thou, O prince of the heavenly host, by the power of God, thrust into Hell, Satan and all the other evil spirits, who prowl throughout the world, seeking the ruin of souls. Amen.
57Joansknight
>53 John5918: What on earth am I thinking....your precious Francis and you precious NOVUS ORDO obliterated Pope Leo XIII's prayer....I truly must be NUTS!?!?!?
58Joansknight
>48 John5918: Rejects the prophesies of saints.....popes....mystics....Nostradamus....and even the words of our LORD Jesus Christ....
59Joansknight
>51 John5918: What you think of as Catholics....as yourself....ARE HERETICS....so whatever you or they think....does NOT matter in the eyes of the Church!
60Joansknight
et visum est aliud signum in caelo et ecce draco magnus rufus habens capita septem et cornua decem et in capitibus suis septem diademata....
61Joansknight
propterea laetamini caeli et qui habitatis in eis vae terrae et mari quia descendit diabolus ad vos habens iram magnam sciens quod modicum tempus habet....
62Joansknight
et exclamavit in forti voce dicens cecidit cecidit Babylon magna et facta est habitatio daemoniorum et custodia omnis spiritus inmundi et custodia omnis volucris inmundae....
63Joansknight
et signum magnum paruit in caelo mulier amicta sole et luna sub pedibus eius et in capite eius corona stellarum duodecim....
64Joansknight
et quintus effudit fialam suam super sedem bestiae et factum est regnum eius tenebrosum et conmanducaverunt linguas suas prae dolore....
66Joansknight
bestiam quam vidisti fuit et non est et ascensura est de abysso et in interitum ibit et mirabuntur inhabitantes terram quorum non sunt scripta nomina in libro vitae a constitutione mundi videntes bestiam quia erat et non est....
67Joansknight
>53 John5918: I take you have NO response....NO response to the TRUTH....it is nice knowing that you could care less about ROM 12:2....or the TRUE Catholic Church....for that matter!
68Joansknight
Have you ever noticed.....when the TRUTH is spoken....people run and hide!?!?
69John5918
Let me quote a text or two from the Tradition of the Church, as that appears to be the main focus of this thread.
Fron the anonymous, 14th century author of The Cloud of Unknowing, translated by Carmen Acevedo Butcher, with bracketed edits by Richard Rohr.
Fron the anonymous, 14th century author of The Cloud of Unknowing, translated by Carmen Acevedo Butcher, with bracketed edits by Richard Rohr.
Lift up your heart to God with a gentle stirring of love. Focus on {God} alone. . . . Don’t let anything else run through your mind and will. Here’s how. Forget what you know. Forget everything God made and everybody who exists and everything that’s going on in the world, until your thoughts and emotions aren’t focused on or reaching toward anything, not in a general way and not in any particular way. Let them be. For the moment, don’t care about anything. . . .
The first time you practice contemplation, you’ll only experience a darkness, like a cloud of unknowing {which now happily envelops you}. You won’t know what this is {and will have to learn how to live there by “forgetting” your previous methods of knowing}. You’ll only know that in your will you feel a simple reaching out to God. You must also know that this darkness and this cloud will always be between you and your God, whatever you do. They will always keep you from seeing {God} clearly by the light of understanding in your intellect and will block you from feeling {God} fully in the sweetness of love in your emotions. So, be sure you make your home in this darkness. Stay there as long as you can, crying out to {God} over and over again, because you love {God}. It’s the closest you can get to God here on earth, by waiting in this darkness and in this cloud. Work at this diligently, as I’ve asked you to, and I know God’s mercy will lead you there. . . .
{God} measures us and makes . . . divinity fit our souls, and our souls are able to take the measure of {God} because {God} created us in {God’s} image and made us worthy. {God} alone is complete and can fulfill our every longing. God’s grace restores our souls and teaches us how to comprehend {God} through love. {God} is incomprehensible to the intellect. . . . Nobody’s mind is powerful enough to grasp who God is. We can only know {God} by experiencing {God’s} love.
Look. Every rational creature, every person, and every angel has two main strengths: the power to know and the power to love. God made both of these, but {God is} not knowable through the first one. To the power of love, however, {God} is entirely known, because a loving soul is open to receive God’s abundance. . . . {God’s} very nature makes love endless and miraculous. God will never stop loving us. Consider this truth, and, if by grace you can make love your own, do. For the experience is eternal joy; its absence is unending suffering...
I know you’ll ask me, “How can I think on God as God, and who is God?” and I can only answer, “I don’t know.”
Your question takes me into the very darkness and cloud of unknowing that I want you to enter. We can know so many things. Through God’s grace, our minds can explore, understand, and reflect on creation and even on God’s own works {as we should!}, but we can’t think our way to God. That’s why I’m willing to abandon everything I know, to love the one thing I cannot think. {God} can be loved, but not thought. {John of the Cross and many other mystics say the same thing. We could have saved ourselves so much fighting and division if we had just taught this one truth!}
By love, God can be embraced and held, but not by thinking. It is good sometimes to meditate on God’s amazing love as part of illumination and contemplation, but true contemplative work is something entirely different. Even meditating on God’s love must be put down {let go of} and covered with a cloud of forgetting. Show your determination next. Let that joyful stirring of love make you resolute, and in its enthusiasm bravely step over meditation {cognitive reflection} and reach up to penetrate the darkness above you. Then beat on that thick cloud of unknowing with the sharp arrow of longing and never stop loving, no matter what comes your way. . . .
No matter how sacred, no thought can ever promise to help you in the work of contemplative prayer, because only love—not knowledge—can help us reach God. . . .
Become blind during contemplative prayer and cut yourself off from needing to know things. Knowledge hinders, not helps you in contemplation. Be content feeling moved in a delightful, loving way by something mysterious and unknown, leaving you focused entirely on God, with no other thought than of {God} alone. Let your naked desire rest there. . . .
It doesn’t matter how much profound wisdom we possess about created spiritual beings; our understanding cannot help us gain knowledge about any uncreated spiritual being, who is God alone. But the failure of our understanding can help us. When we reach the end of what we know, that’s where we find God. That’s why St. Dionysius {5th/6th century} said that the best, most divine knowledge of God is that which is known by not-knowing.
70John5918
St Augustine in The Literal Meaning of Genesis:
(In reference to verses 1-4): Although this work of God was done in an instant, did the light remain, without night coming on, until the time of one day was complete; and did the night, following upon the daylight, continue while the hours of the nighttime passed by until the morning of the following day dawned, one day, the first one, being them compete? But if I make such a statement, I fear I shall be laughed at both by those who have scientific knowledge of these matters and by those who can easily recognize the facts of the case. At the time when night is with us, the sun is illuminating with its presence those parts of the world through which it returns from the place of its setting to that of its rising. Hence it is that for the whole twenty-four hours of the sun's circuit there is always day in one place and night in another. (...) If we are then to assume that it was a corporeal light, it is difficult to discover any solution to propose for this problem. Perhaps one might say that God gave the name "darkness" to the mass of the earth and water which were still not separated from the other (a thing which is said to have happened on the third day), in view of the dense bodily mass of the earth and water, which light could not have penetrated, or in view of dark shade of the huge bulk. Now there must be such shade on one side of a body if there is light on the other. Where part of a body cannot be reached by light, because the mass of the body obstructs it, in that part there is shade. (...) If this shade, because of the size of the massive body, is large enough to cover a space of the earth equal to that covered by daylight on the other side, it is then called "night." Not all darkness is night (e.g. caves). (...) This word we reserve for the darkness that comes to that part of the earth from which day has departed. Similarly, not all light is called "day" (e.g. moon, stars, lamps, lightning, etc.). But that light is called "day" which precedes the night and withdraws when night comes on. (From Chs. 12-13)
In matters that are obscure and far beyond our vision, even in such as we may find treated in Holy Scripture, different interpretations are sometimes possible without prejudice to the faith we have received. In such a case, we should no rush in headlong and so firmly take our stand on one side that, if further progress in the search for truth justly undermines this position, we too fall with it. That would be to battle not for the teaching of Holy Scripture but for our own, wishing its teaching to conform to ours, whereas we ought to wish ours to conform to that of Sacred Scripture.
Let us suppose that in explaining the words, And God said, "Let there be light," and light was made, one man thinks that it was material light that was made, and another that it was spiritual. As to the actual existence of spiritual light in a spiritual creature, our faith leaves no doubt; as to the existence of material light, celestial or supercelestial, even existing before the heavens, a light which could have been followed by night, there will be nothing in such a supposition contrary to the faith until unerring truth gives the lie to it. And if that should happen, this teaching was never in Holy Scripture but was an opinion proposed by man in his ignorance. On the other hand, if reason should prove that this opinion is unquestionably true, it will still be uncertain whether this sense was intended by the sacred writer when he used the words quoted above, or whether he meant something else no less true. And if the general drift of the passage shows that the sacred writer did not intend this teaching, the other, which he did intend, will not thereby be false; indeed, it will be true and more worth knowing. On the other hand, if the tenor of the words of Scripture does not militate against our taking this teaching as the mind of the writer, we shall still have to enquire whether he could not have meant something else besides. And if we find that he could have meant something else also, it will not be clear which of the two meanings he intended. And there is no difficulty if he is thought to have wished both interpretations if both are supported by clear indications in the context.
Non-Christians know something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge they hold to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for a nonbeliever to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of the faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehood on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason? Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion (I Timothy 1:7). (Chapters 18 and 19)
With thanks to LT member Nathaniel Campbell who posted these quotes from St Augustine in 2012.
72Joansknight
>71 John5918: The proper translation is....et nos cognovimus et credidimus caritati quam habet Deus in nobis Deus caritas est et qui manet in caritate in Deo manet et Deus in eo....
73PaulPlumb
"That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world." Matt. 16:18 & 28:20
If you are willing to think differently about this scripture, the commonly held interpretation is wrong. In the Douay-Rheims Bible of Matthew 16:13 - 18 this scripture reads, "And Jesus came into the quarters of Cesarea Philippi: and he asked his disciples, saying: Whom do men say that the Son of man is? But they said: Some John the Baptist, and other some Elias, and others Jeremias, or one of the prophets. Jesus saith to them: But whom do you say that I am? Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
The rock Jesus is referring to is not Peter - it is the rock of revelation. Peter was a great apostle, but as great as he was he was not as much of a rock as revelation is. If the church is not built upon the rock of revelation the gates of hell shall prevail against it and did on earth. Flesh and blood had not revealed to Peter that Jesus is the Christ, it was revealed to him by the Father, by revelation. It is revelation that Peter received that brought the gospel to the gentiles when he was presented with all kinds of things he thought were unclean and he was told in a dream or vision to arise and eat. It was revelation to Peter as head of the church that brought about any change within the church. When revelation ceased, as it surely did, after all of the Apostles were martyred except John, the Church of Jesus Christ was taken away into heaven. John was not authorized by Jesus to rebuild the leadership of the Apostles on earth, so the church began to drift so that by the time of the Council of Nicea, a gentile, a Roman Emperor, decided the fate of the struggling church as men without revelation argued among themselves as to which doctrines were correct. The winners declared all others to be apostate and thus began the Roman Catholic church rather than the Church of Jesus Christ.
As sincere and determined to lead the church correctly as they were, the church fathers were without the authority of the Apostles and could no longer delegate the authority to anyone else. With the rock of revelation gone that comes with the delegated authority of the Apostles, the true church on earth ceased to be. History is evidence of this with all of the evil that some of the Popes inflicted on humanity and the sex scandal of our own day.
Now I'm sure you don't just believe what I have said, but if you are really sincere and are willing to ask God if the above is true, you can also receive revelation from the Father that it is. But before you ask, I suggest that you read James 1:5-7 or I guarantee you won't get an answer.
If you are willing to think differently about this scripture, the commonly held interpretation is wrong. In the Douay-Rheims Bible of Matthew 16:13 - 18 this scripture reads, "And Jesus came into the quarters of Cesarea Philippi: and he asked his disciples, saying: Whom do men say that the Son of man is? But they said: Some John the Baptist, and other some Elias, and others Jeremias, or one of the prophets. Jesus saith to them: But whom do you say that I am? Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
The rock Jesus is referring to is not Peter - it is the rock of revelation. Peter was a great apostle, but as great as he was he was not as much of a rock as revelation is. If the church is not built upon the rock of revelation the gates of hell shall prevail against it and did on earth. Flesh and blood had not revealed to Peter that Jesus is the Christ, it was revealed to him by the Father, by revelation. It is revelation that Peter received that brought the gospel to the gentiles when he was presented with all kinds of things he thought were unclean and he was told in a dream or vision to arise and eat. It was revelation to Peter as head of the church that brought about any change within the church. When revelation ceased, as it surely did, after all of the Apostles were martyred except John, the Church of Jesus Christ was taken away into heaven. John was not authorized by Jesus to rebuild the leadership of the Apostles on earth, so the church began to drift so that by the time of the Council of Nicea, a gentile, a Roman Emperor, decided the fate of the struggling church as men without revelation argued among themselves as to which doctrines were correct. The winners declared all others to be apostate and thus began the Roman Catholic church rather than the Church of Jesus Christ.
As sincere and determined to lead the church correctly as they were, the church fathers were without the authority of the Apostles and could no longer delegate the authority to anyone else. With the rock of revelation gone that comes with the delegated authority of the Apostles, the true church on earth ceased to be. History is evidence of this with all of the evil that some of the Popes inflicted on humanity and the sex scandal of our own day.
Now I'm sure you don't just believe what I have said, but if you are really sincere and are willing to ask God if the above is true, you can also receive revelation from the Father that it is. But before you ask, I suggest that you read James 1:5-7 or I guarantee you won't get an answer.
74Joansknight
>73 PaulPlumb: Pope Gregory XVI, Mirari Vos (# 19), Aug. 15, 1832: “Here surely belong the infamous and wild plans of the Waldensians, the Beghards, the Wycliffites, and other such sons of Belial, who were the sores and disgrace of the human race; they often received a richly deserved anathema from the Holy See.”
75John5918
>73 PaulPlumb:
Thanks, Paul, for taking the trouble to drop in and post on this thread on your very first day on LibraryThing and even before you had a chance to start entering your books.
James 1:5-7
The text you cite appears to be against doubt. And yet Peter doubted. So did most of the other apostles at some point or other. Indeed Jesus himself doubted.
Thanks, Paul, for taking the trouble to drop in and post on this thread on your very first day on LibraryThing and even before you had a chance to start entering your books.
James 1:5-7
The text you cite appears to be against doubt. And yet Peter doubted. So did most of the other apostles at some point or other. Indeed Jesus himself doubted.
76Joansknight
>75 John5918: You agree with him!? That is TOTAL HERESY!
78Joansknight
>77 John5918: Very sorry!
79PaulPlumb
I think James 1:5-7 is pointing out that if we have a question, we are to ask God - but we can not ask God thinking we might not get an answer. We must have faith, believing that we will get an answer - to whatever we ask. But ask with doubt on our minds and we might as well not ask.
I'm suggesting that the question to ask is if the scripture in Matthew is referring to revelation as the rock. As you mentioned, Peter doubted along with many others. To doubt is to not be a rock. Revelation, however, is as solid as any rock. It was revelation that Peter could say to Jesus that he knew - nothing doubting - that Jesus is the Christ. It is revelation that the Church of Christ must be led by, not doubting humans. Revelation infers that it is not man's judgment that leads the church but God Himself, because He is telling the man what to do.
I believe that there was an apostasy starting even during the time of the Apostles. For instance, in 2 Thessalonians verses 1-5 Paul warns the church members not to be troubled by people talking about the second coming of Christ - because he said it would not happen until there was a 'falling away first'. According to the church, there has never been a falling away so either it has not happened yet or it has happened and those in charge don't know it.
I believe part of the evidence that a 'falling away' has happened is the fact that there are over 30,000 different denominations of Christian churches - including many different Catholic Rites. There is the Roman Rite, the Alexandrian Rite, the Antiochian Rite, the Chaldean Rite, the Byzantine Rite. They can't all be right. Which one is the true church as they all claim to be the true one or are they all apostate?
Paul warned of this apostasy in Acts 20: 29 -30 where it reads, "For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them."
If you study the councils up to and including the Council of Nicea in 321 AD it appears that they were constantly discussing things - but with no revelation. As a result, the church is being run by people who are trying to do their best, but they don't have revelation - and without revelation (the rock) the gates of hell have already prevailed.
I believe the quote that Joansknight gave is only partially correct. I believe the apostasy took place even before the Council of Nicea and that Nicea was the completion of it.
The following are scriptures from the New Testament that indicate there was an apostasy taking place and I believe that as a result of all this, the Church of Christ was all but dead even before the time of the Council of Nicea - in which I pointed out that Constantine - a man totally void of the spirit, decided which group was to become the so-called Christian church. Certainly no revelation there.
some having served have turned aside, 1 Tim. 1:6.
giving heed to seducing spirits, 1 Tim. 4:1.
all they which are in Asia be turned away from me, 2 Tim. 1:15.
Who concerning the truth have erred, 2 Tim. 2:18.
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power, 2 Tim. 3:5.
turn away their ears from the truth … unto fables, 2 Tim. 4:4.
profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, Titus 1:16.
From whence come wars and fightings among you, James 4:1.
false prophets also among the people, 2 Pet. 2:1.
being led away with the error of the wicked, 2 Pet. 3:17.
now are there many antichrists, 1 Jn. 2:18.
many false prophets are gone out into the world, 1 Jn. 4:1.
certain men crept in … denying the only Lord God, Jude 1:4.
which say they are apostles, and are not, Rev. 2:2.
I'm suggesting that the question to ask is if the scripture in Matthew is referring to revelation as the rock. As you mentioned, Peter doubted along with many others. To doubt is to not be a rock. Revelation, however, is as solid as any rock. It was revelation that Peter could say to Jesus that he knew - nothing doubting - that Jesus is the Christ. It is revelation that the Church of Christ must be led by, not doubting humans. Revelation infers that it is not man's judgment that leads the church but God Himself, because He is telling the man what to do.
I believe that there was an apostasy starting even during the time of the Apostles. For instance, in 2 Thessalonians verses 1-5 Paul warns the church members not to be troubled by people talking about the second coming of Christ - because he said it would not happen until there was a 'falling away first'. According to the church, there has never been a falling away so either it has not happened yet or it has happened and those in charge don't know it.
I believe part of the evidence that a 'falling away' has happened is the fact that there are over 30,000 different denominations of Christian churches - including many different Catholic Rites. There is the Roman Rite, the Alexandrian Rite, the Antiochian Rite, the Chaldean Rite, the Byzantine Rite. They can't all be right. Which one is the true church as they all claim to be the true one or are they all apostate?
Paul warned of this apostasy in Acts 20: 29 -30 where it reads, "For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them."
If you study the councils up to and including the Council of Nicea in 321 AD it appears that they were constantly discussing things - but with no revelation. As a result, the church is being run by people who are trying to do their best, but they don't have revelation - and without revelation (the rock) the gates of hell have already prevailed.
I believe the quote that Joansknight gave is only partially correct. I believe the apostasy took place even before the Council of Nicea and that Nicea was the completion of it.
The following are scriptures from the New Testament that indicate there was an apostasy taking place and I believe that as a result of all this, the Church of Christ was all but dead even before the time of the Council of Nicea - in which I pointed out that Constantine - a man totally void of the spirit, decided which group was to become the so-called Christian church. Certainly no revelation there.
some having served have turned aside, 1 Tim. 1:6.
giving heed to seducing spirits, 1 Tim. 4:1.
all they which are in Asia be turned away from me, 2 Tim. 1:15.
Who concerning the truth have erred, 2 Tim. 2:18.
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power, 2 Tim. 3:5.
turn away their ears from the truth … unto fables, 2 Tim. 4:4.
profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, Titus 1:16.
From whence come wars and fightings among you, James 4:1.
false prophets also among the people, 2 Pet. 2:1.
being led away with the error of the wicked, 2 Pet. 3:17.
now are there many antichrists, 1 Jn. 2:18.
many false prophets are gone out into the world, 1 Jn. 4:1.
certain men crept in … denying the only Lord God, Jude 1:4.
which say they are apostles, and are not, Rev. 2:2.
80Joansknight
>79 PaulPlumb: You should start your own thread....whatever you are selling....I am NOT buying!
81John5918
>79 PaulPlumb:
It seems to me, Paul, that your basic position is a bible literalist one - that the revelation found in scripture is of greater importance than the ongoing revelation found in the Church. As such it is flawed in that the Church (or at least the proto-Christian community) came before the scriptures - indeed it was Christians who (inspired by God) wrote the New Testament. None of the books of the NT were written during the lifetime of Jesus the Christ, and most (possibly all) were written by people who had never known him. It was members of the Church who wrtote the NT, and it was several hundred years before the Church definitively agreed on which gospels and other texts should be included in the canon of scripture. Indeed even to this day there is still disagreement amongst Christians as to whether the Old Testament Apocrypha should be part of the canon of scripture or not.
The claim that scripture is prior to the Christian community (aka the Church) does not hold water.
It seems to me, Paul, that your basic position is a bible literalist one - that the revelation found in scripture is of greater importance than the ongoing revelation found in the Church. As such it is flawed in that the Church (or at least the proto-Christian community) came before the scriptures - indeed it was Christians who (inspired by God) wrote the New Testament. None of the books of the NT were written during the lifetime of Jesus the Christ, and most (possibly all) were written by people who had never known him. It was members of the Church who wrtote the NT, and it was several hundred years before the Church definitively agreed on which gospels and other texts should be included in the canon of scripture. Indeed even to this day there is still disagreement amongst Christians as to whether the Old Testament Apocrypha should be part of the canon of scripture or not.
The claim that scripture is prior to the Christian community (aka the Church) does not hold water.
82Joansknight
>81 John5918: I most assuredly agree....
83Joansknight
>81 John5918: Just keep on being in denial of the NOVUS ORDO APOSTASY! https://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/catholicchurch/cardinal-cupich/?utm_sour...
85Joansknight
>81 John5918: I guess you are sleeping....or simply ignoring me....
86PaulPlumb
"your basic position is a bible literalist one - that the revelation found in scripture is of greater importance than the ongoing revelation found in the Church" Definitely not. Revelation is the making of scripture. THe New Testament is the recording of the writings of the Apostles and Prophets. The scriptures I wrote down for you were from them prophesying of the events to happen in the future - including the warnings of apostasy of the church as well as statements of the actual apostasy taking place in their day. I agree it was several hundred years before the Church definitively agreed on the gospels and yes there is still disagreement. That is a very good reason why there needs to be revelation - but I believe that prior to 300 AD the people that should have been receiving revelation were no longer receiving it. Hence the arguments in the councils. Certainly there was no one in the councils that was recognized as the head of the church that could state authoritatively "Thus saith the Lord" By what right did Constantine have to decide the outcome of the Nicea council? Was he or anyone else in the council inspired or received revelation to determine who was right and wrong in that council?
Any church that claims it is the true church must be able to claim it receives current revelation - but that had ceased with the death of the Apostles and those they ordained, because no one held the authority of the Apostles to pass that authority on.
The letter to the Galatians includes this. "Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
The Galatians were in the process of apostasy.
In 1 Timothy 4 it reads 4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
2 Peter 2 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
Read all the scriptures I gave you. They include similar warnings and comments like those above. There are good people in the church, but they are not Prophets or Apostles and they are not receiving revelation for the church. If they did - there wouldn't be the problems there are - either now or in the past. How can you claim the church is true when at one time there were 3 opposing Popes? Were all 3 the Vicar of Christ or possibly none of them? Who received the revelation to make any one of them the true head of the church?
The church is in a state of apostasy and has been since about 100 AD notwithstanding there are individuals that do receive revelation for their own lives - but these are not authorized by God to receive it for the church.
The reason Luther attached his objections to the church door was because of abuses that he saw that did not square with the scriptures and he did not see as true revelation but the doctrines of men.
Any church that claims it is the true church must be able to claim it receives current revelation - but that had ceased with the death of the Apostles and those they ordained, because no one held the authority of the Apostles to pass that authority on.
The letter to the Galatians includes this. "Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
The Galatians were in the process of apostasy.
In 1 Timothy 4 it reads 4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
2 Peter 2 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
Read all the scriptures I gave you. They include similar warnings and comments like those above. There are good people in the church, but they are not Prophets or Apostles and they are not receiving revelation for the church. If they did - there wouldn't be the problems there are - either now or in the past. How can you claim the church is true when at one time there were 3 opposing Popes? Were all 3 the Vicar of Christ or possibly none of them? Who received the revelation to make any one of them the true head of the church?
The church is in a state of apostasy and has been since about 100 AD notwithstanding there are individuals that do receive revelation for their own lives - but these are not authorized by God to receive it for the church.
The reason Luther attached his objections to the church door was because of abuses that he saw that did not square with the scriptures and he did not see as true revelation but the doctrines of men.
87John5918
>86 PaulPlumb:
Seems you and Joansknight have a lot in common, believing that the Catholic Church is in a state of apostasy. Only difference is that you believe it started in 100 CE and Joansknight that it started in 1958 CE.
Seems you and Joansknight have a lot in common, believing that the Catholic Church is in a state of apostasy. Only difference is that you believe it started in 100 CE and Joansknight that it started in 1958 CE.
88LesMiserables
This whole futile thread is pure unadulterated groan.
90PaulPlumb
Not only do I believe the church has been in apostasy since about 100 CE, but that there is a restoration that will take place.
Lord’s house shall be established in the top of the mountains, Isa. 2:2
Lord shall set his hand … to recover the remnant of his people, Isa. 11:11
Isa. 29:14 11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.
Where does the church have this book Isaiah prophesies about? Where is there a church like the one we read about in the New Testament that was plain in its teachings and unadorned with robes. I haven't read anywhere in the new testament where the leaders of the church wore any kind of special clothing.
Dan. 2:44. And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
The days of those kings is AFTER the Roman Empire - which is after the organization of the Roman Catholic church. The church is going to be replaced.
Mal. 4:6 5 ¶ Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
Has the Pope received Elijah the prophet to answer this prophecy? I think this has already happened and the result is all of the genealogy people are doing these days. So if it has already happened - who did Elijah visit?
Elias … come, and restore all things, Matt. 17:11 This is not talking about the first coming of Christ. You can't restore all things - unless all things have been taken away first - the apostasy.
times of restitution of all things, Acts 3:21 (D&C 27:6). once again you can't have a restitution of all things unless they were taken away first.
blindness … until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in, Rom. 11:25.
in the dispensation of the fulness of times … gather together in one all things, Eph. 1:10. What's the dispensation of the fulness of times?
I saw another angel … having the everlasting gospel, Rev. 14:6. Why would an angel have the everlasting gospel to preach again if the church was not going to die and be restored?
Lord’s house shall be established in the top of the mountains, Isa. 2:2
Lord shall set his hand … to recover the remnant of his people, Isa. 11:11
Isa. 29:14 11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.
Where does the church have this book Isaiah prophesies about? Where is there a church like the one we read about in the New Testament that was plain in its teachings and unadorned with robes. I haven't read anywhere in the new testament where the leaders of the church wore any kind of special clothing.
Dan. 2:44. And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
The days of those kings is AFTER the Roman Empire - which is after the organization of the Roman Catholic church. The church is going to be replaced.
Mal. 4:6 5 ¶ Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
Has the Pope received Elijah the prophet to answer this prophecy? I think this has already happened and the result is all of the genealogy people are doing these days. So if it has already happened - who did Elijah visit?
Elias … come, and restore all things, Matt. 17:11 This is not talking about the first coming of Christ. You can't restore all things - unless all things have been taken away first - the apostasy.
times of restitution of all things, Acts 3:21 (D&C 27:6). once again you can't have a restitution of all things unless they were taken away first.
blindness … until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in, Rom. 11:25.
in the dispensation of the fulness of times … gather together in one all things, Eph. 1:10. What's the dispensation of the fulness of times?
I saw another angel … having the everlasting gospel, Rev. 14:6. Why would an angel have the everlasting gospel to preach again if the church was not going to die and be restored?
91John5918
Back to posting random texts from the Tradition. I was struck by the scripture reading from yesterday morning's Divine Office, from Tobit 4: 15-19 (New Jerusalem version):
Do to no one what you would not want done to you... 'Give your bread to those who are hungry, and your clothes to those who lack clothing... 'Ask advice of every wise person; never scorn any profitable advice... Bless the Lord God in everything; beg him to guide your ways and bring your paths and purposes to their end...
92John5918
Another one that struck me, from today's Divine Office, from Ephesians 4:29-32. Not 100% sure which translation this is, but it reads better than the New Jerusalem in my view:
Do not use harmful words in talking. Use only helpful words, the kind that build up and provide what is needed, so that what you say will do good to those who hear you... Get rid of all bitterness, passion, and anger. No more shouting or insults. No more hateful feeling of any sort. Instead, be kind and tender-hearted to one another, and forgive one another, as God has forgiven you in Christ.
93Joansknight
>92 John5918: If you are waiting for any kind of response from me....you are NOT going to get it....you just mock & ridicule me....so much for your LOVE!
95Joansknight
>94 John5918: But you belong to the NOVUS ORDO SECT....
96Joansknight
>94 John5918: This WHOLE thread is a groan....remember!?!?!? You....along with the rest of SOCIETY hate the TRUTH....it interferes with the way of your thinking and beliefs....let me tell you....it is NOT all about you....it IS about CHRIST!
97Joansknight
>94 John5918: I am beginning to believe your saviour is APOSTATE & HERETIC Francis....mine IS Jesus Christ....and His CHURCH!
98Joansknight
>94 John5918: You see....this is the problem with the the NOVUS ORDO APOSTASY....they put THEIR "popes" & "saints" above CHRIST OUR LORD....why IS that!?!? This is why YOU follow THE DOCTRINE OF MAN....and NOT the DOCTRINES of CHRIT'S CHURCH!
99Joansknight
I can REALLY hear >94 John5918: GROANING now....
100Joansknight
By the way....I have NO clue what >90 PaulPlumb: believes....he needs to start his own thread!
101Joansknight
God has promised to be like a wall of fire round those who rightly believe in Him.
- Saint Athanasius (ca. 296-373)
102Joansknight
Neque enim Petri successoribus Spiritus sanctus promissus est, ut eo revelante novam doctrinam patefacerent, sed ut eo assistente traditam per apostolos revelationem seu fidei depositum sancte custodirent et fideliter exponerent. For the Holy Ghost was promised to the successors of Peter not so that they might, by His revelation, make known some new doctrine, but that, by His assistance, they might religiously guard and faithfully expound the revelation or Deposit of Faith transmitted by the Apostles.
- Vatican Council, Constitutio Dogmatica Prima de Ecclesia Christi (Pastor Aeternus), chap. 4, De Roma
103John5918
>102 Joansknight:
Good Catholic theology. But do Sedevacantists not believe that the Holy Ghost has abandoned the "successors of Peter" since 1958? Like them or not, think them good or bad, but John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul I & II, Benedict XVI and Francis are the chosen successors of Peter.
Good Catholic theology. But do Sedevacantists not believe that the Holy Ghost has abandoned the "successors of Peter" since 1958? Like them or not, think them good or bad, but John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul I & II, Benedict XVI and Francis are the chosen successors of Peter.
104Joansknight
>103 John5918: By the NOVUS ORDO APOSTASY they ARE....by the Catholic Church....they are NOT....they gave up that privilege when they became APOSTATE & HERETICS....when they created their own RELIGION!
105John5918
>104 Joansknight:
But even if one of them were to become APOSTATE & HERETIC, they were all duly elected by the College of Cardinals as successors of Peter - or did the entire College of Cardinals and indeed virtually all the bishops, priests and laity of the world become APOSTATE & HERETIC almost simultaneously, despite the promise of the Holy Ghost?
But even if one of them were to become APOSTATE & HERETIC, they were all duly elected by the College of Cardinals as successors of Peter - or did the entire College of Cardinals and indeed virtually all the bishops, priests and laity of the world become APOSTATE & HERETIC almost simultaneously, despite the promise of the Holy Ghost?
106Joansknight
>105 John5918: A MANIFEST HERETIC can NOT be pope....St. Robert Bellarmine!
107John5918
>106 Joansknight:
So the College of Cardinals chose six MANIFEST HERETICS in a row? Rather lax of the Holy Ghost, methinks. One could be an accident, but SIX looks like carelessness.
So the College of Cardinals chose six MANIFEST HERETICS in a row? Rather lax of the Holy Ghost, methinks. One could be an accident, but SIX looks like carelessness.
108Joansknight
>107 John5918: You do NOT get it do you....NONE of them were CATHOLIC....if you had a conscience....or even a mind of your own you would see the TRUTH....tell me something....in the church you attend....how off to the side of the alter is the "blessed sacrament"?!?!?
109Joansknight
>107 John5918: You have pushed Christ so far away....you can NOT even utter His name!
110Joansknight
>107 John5918: all that you have posted on LT and you can NOT even say JESUS....but you can utter the name of FRANCIS!
111Joansknight
>107 John5918: Sweat dreams....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LBmUwi6mEo
112Joansknight
>107 John5918: I am glad you can sleep weell at night....I can NOT!
113Joansknight
>107 John5918: Feel blessed....I have to go.....you could care less what I think....or believe anyway!
114Joansknight
>107 John5918: You will always be a HERETIC....you will always follow and believe the ways of MAN and NOT the doctrines of CHRIST'S Church....you can NOT even say our LORD'S name!
115Joansknight
>107 John5918: I am happy you are able to sleep so Well....
116Joansknight
>107 John5918: I HAVE a CONSCIENCE.....so I can NOT sleep at night.....you do NOT.....so you can.....along with all of SOCIETY!
117Joansknight
>107 John5918: You BELIEVE what you want to....you FOLLOW the ways of MAN & SOCIETY....I follow CHRIST....I follow the TRUTH!
118Joansknight
>107 John5918: It does NOT matter what you think or believe....it does NOT matter what you or SOCIETY accepts....TRUE believers in CHRIST know the TRUTH....so sweet dreams John....I am glad you are able to sleep!
119Joansknight
>107 John5918: The United States could care less about Africa.....why do YOU care about the UNITED STATES!?!? Do YOU love TRUMP that much!?!?
120Joansknight
>107 John5918: Like the LION.....(NOVUS ORDO APOSTASY)....I know YOU will sleep well tonight!
121Joansknight
>107 John5918: You can say FRANCIS....you CAN NOT say the name of our LORD CHRIST!
122Joansknight
>107 John5918: You know NOTHING of CHRIST or His Church....sweet dreams John!
123John5918
Oh dear, I think you're ranting again. Most of what you say is utterly meaningless. You have no idea whether or not I utter words like the Lord or Jesus or the Christ, athough a simple thought experiment on how often they come up in common prayers or the Divine Office should suggest to you that it is unlikely that a Catholic will not say them fairly regularly.
I think I have explained to you before that I lead a fairly nomadic life and I worship in many different churches. I think I have also explained to you that in most of them the tabernacle containing the Blessed Sacrament occupies a prominent and highly visible position. What is your point?
Thanks for your good wishes for a good night's sleep. It's very hot where I am at the moment, in the mid-thirties Celsius, and no aircon of course, but I usually manage to sleep OK.
As someone else said, this thread is a "groan". Can we not have a sensible and civil discussion (and disagreement) about Sedevacantism? I'm genuinely interested in it as a religious phenomenon, but not interested in the rants and cries of HERETIC and APOSTATE.
I think I have explained to you before that I lead a fairly nomadic life and I worship in many different churches. I think I have also explained to you that in most of them the tabernacle containing the Blessed Sacrament occupies a prominent and highly visible position. What is your point?
Thanks for your good wishes for a good night's sleep. It's very hot where I am at the moment, in the mid-thirties Celsius, and no aircon of course, but I usually manage to sleep OK.
As someone else said, this thread is a "groan". Can we not have a sensible and civil discussion (and disagreement) about Sedevacantism? I'm genuinely interested in it as a religious phenomenon, but not interested in the rants and cries of HERETIC and APOSTATE.
124Joansknight
>123 John5918: Sedevancantism....is only a term for the Seat of St. Peter being empty....though it may make you and society groan....my beliefs lie in the Holy Roman Catholic Church....as all of humanity's should....for example....you belonging to the NOVUS ORDO APOSTASY....you ARE a HERETIC....me being a TRUE Catholic....I am a Sedevancantist....believing that the Chair of St. Peter is EMPTY....is NOT a religion....it IS an ideal....a BELIEF! Have NO doubts....I am CATHOLIC....unlike you!
125Joansknight
>123 John5918: I also in NO way support Donald J. Trump....as this country's president....does that make me less of an American!?!?
126Joansknight
>123 John5918: For once in your life....TRY thinking for yourself....forget what society thinks or believes....remember Romans 12:2....et nolite conformari huic saeculo sed reformamini in novitate sensus vestri ut probetis quae sit voluntas Dei bona et placens et perfecta....sorry....I forgot....you despise the Vulgate....and language of the Church!
127Joansknight
>123 John5918: By the way....I am still waiting....for you to say....that Christ is your Savior....is that so hard....or are you ashamed that the LT audience will see it!?!?
128John5918
>124 Joansknight: I am a Sedevancantist....believing that the Chair of St. Peter is EMPTY....is NOT a religion.
I did not refer to it as a religion but as a religious phenomenon.
>125 Joansknight:
Has anybody mentioned Donald Trump in this thread? Not that I can remember.
>126 Joansknight:
It is pretty near impossible to have a meaningful conversation with you if you dismiss anybody who disagrees with you as not thinking for themselves. Maybe they are thinking for themselves but see things differently from you? Incidentally I've found this same dynamic from a few right-wing posters on other LT threads. If you don't agree with them you must be stupid, not thinking for yourself, dishonest, or whatever.
>127 Joansknight: I am still waiting....for you to say....that Christ is your Savior
What I have continually said is that I am a Catholic. It should be clear to you that Catholics (and indeed virtually all Christians of whatever denomination) believe that Christ is our Saviour. I don't, however, feel the need to satisfy whatever is your personal litmus test.
I did not refer to it as a religion but as a religious phenomenon.
>125 Joansknight:
Has anybody mentioned Donald Trump in this thread? Not that I can remember.
>126 Joansknight:
It is pretty near impossible to have a meaningful conversation with you if you dismiss anybody who disagrees with you as not thinking for themselves. Maybe they are thinking for themselves but see things differently from you? Incidentally I've found this same dynamic from a few right-wing posters on other LT threads. If you don't agree with them you must be stupid, not thinking for yourself, dishonest, or whatever.
>127 Joansknight: I am still waiting....for you to say....that Christ is your Savior
What I have continually said is that I am a Catholic. It should be clear to you that Catholics (and indeed virtually all Christians of whatever denomination) believe that Christ is our Saviour. I don't, however, feel the need to satisfy whatever is your personal litmus test.
129Joansknight
Joyous & Blessed Feast of St. Nicholas....everyone!
130Joansknight
>128 John5918: Wondering IF you even know about the Feast of St. Nicholas....we SHOULD all be as giving as he was....
1312wonderY
And blessings back to you, Joansknight.
Why wouldn't John know about St. Nicholas' feast day?
We always put our shoes outside our bedroom doors and found fruit and such in them that morning.
Why wouldn't John know about St. Nicholas' feast day?
We always put our shoes outside our bedroom doors and found fruit and such in them that morning.
132Joansknight
>131 2wonderY: Thank you....>128 John5918: IS so wrapped up in HERESY....that IS why he would NOT give a single thought to St. Nicholas' Feast Day! St. Nicholas....always left our family a big burlap bag of peanuts....he would ring the door bell....it would be there....when we answered the door!
133John5918
>129 Joansknight:
Likewise, happy feast day to all. I've spent a lot of time working with Dutch colleagues, and St Nicholas is a very big feast day for them.
Likewise, happy feast day to all. I've spent a lot of time working with Dutch colleagues, and St Nicholas is a very big feast day for them.
134Joansknight
>133 John5918: Dutch HERETICS I assume....
135John5918
>134 Joansknight:
No, Dutch Catholic missionaries mainly, including a few Dutch bishops, as well as Dutch NGO aid workers.
No, Dutch Catholic missionaries mainly, including a few Dutch bishops, as well as Dutch NGO aid workers.
136Joansknight
>135 John5918: NOT Catholics....NOVUS ORDO SECT....
137Joansknight
>13 John5918: As far as I know....the ONLY Roman Catholic you KNOW is me!
138Joansknight
>135 John5918: I guess YOU are off the hook....I need to go....YOU should thank God for small favours!
139Joansknight
>135 John5918: YOU have NO concept of what BEING Catholic IS....YOU deny ALL the DOCTRINES of Catholicism! Have YOU even read Benzinger!?!?
140Joansknight
I think >135 John5918: went to sleep....I am glad he is able to sleep....knowing he IS a HERETIC!
141Joansknight
>135 John5918: I HAVE a conscience....I guess that IS why you can sleep at night...and I can NOT!?!?
142LesMiserables
Joan, you sound like you belong to a cult my friend. That is not the RC church.
143Joansknight
>142 LesMiserables: Like you would know....
144Joansknight
The other day....my brother told me of a VALIDLY ORDAINED PRIEST....who says the LATIN MASS....this IS how the NOVUS ORDO SECT pacifies its followers....as a TRUE Catholic....I still will NOT attend....this "priest" IS still an APOSTATE....HERETIC....& HYPOCRITE!
145Joansknight
The Mass is the most beautiful and the best thing in the Church. At the Mass, Jesus Christ giveth Himself to us by means of the Most Holy Sacrament of the altar, which is the end and the purpose of all the other Sacraments.
- Saint Alphonsus Liguori, Doctor of the Church (1696-1787)
146Joansknight
Peace....
147John5918
>146 Joansknight:
Too early to wish you a happy and holy Christmas as we have only just entered the season of Advent. But I wish you a peaceful and joyous season anticipating the birth of Christ.
Too early to wish you a happy and holy Christmas as we have only just entered the season of Advent. But I wish you a peaceful and joyous season anticipating the birth of Christ.
148Joansknight
>147 John5918: Thank you and the same to you....
149Joansknight
Another week has begun....
150Joansknight
Good morning all....
151Joansknight
The devil has always attempted, by means of the heretics, to deprive the world of the Mass, making them precursors of Antichrist, who, before anything else, will try to abolish and will actually abolish the Holy Sacrament of the altar, as a punishment for the sins of men, according to the prediction of Daniel "And strength was given him against the continual sacrifice" (Daniel 8:12).
- Saint Alphonsus Liguori, Doctor of the Church (1696-1787)
152Joansknight
The Church is the only one, the Roman Catholic! And if there were left upon earth but one Catholic, he would be the one, universal Church, the Catholic Church, the Church of Jesus Christ against which the gates of Hell shall never prevail.
- Ven. Anne Catherine Emmerich (1774-1824)
153Joansknight
THE TRUTH....If 100 people believe an apple is an orange....is it?
If 1,000 people believe the sky is yellow....is it?
If 10,000 people believe George W. Bush was a good president....was he?
If 1,000,000 people believe in UFOs....are they?
If 1,000,000,000 people believe the Vatican II sect (counterfeit-Catholic church) is the true Roman Catholic Church....is it?
If society....the government....and the news and social media tell you all these things are THE TRUTH....are they?
If 1,000 people believe the sky is yellow....is it?
If 10,000 people believe George W. Bush was a good president....was he?
If 1,000,000 people believe in UFOs....are they?
If 1,000,000,000 people believe the Vatican II sect (counterfeit-Catholic church) is the true Roman Catholic Church....is it?
If society....the government....and the news and social media tell you all these things are THE TRUTH....are they?
154Joansknight
Whatever >142 LesMiserables: & >147 John5918: believe....they ARE wrong....they do NOT know the the TRUTH!
155Joansknight
2 Corinthians 4:3-4- “And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. In whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.”
156Joansknight
In JUST three days....we celebrate The Feast of the Birth of Christ....does >147 John5918: even CARE!?!? I think he cares more about the APOSTATE Francis.....
157John5918
>156 Joansknight:
A happy and holy Christmas to you too. May our celebration of the birth of Jesus the Christ bring blessings on us all.
A happy and holy Christmas to you too. May our celebration of the birth of Jesus the Christ bring blessings on us all.
158Joansknight
Amen....
159Joansknight
Goodwill towards man...
160Joansknight
>164 Joansknight: You are right....
161Joansknight
Peace on Earth....
162Joansknight
Three more days....
163Joansknight
He is coming....
164Joansknight
Two more days....
165John5918
>164 Joansknight:
Christ is indeed 'the reason for the season', although I can't say I like such trite little rhymes. Has anyone on this thread said differently?
Christ is indeed 'the reason for the season', although I can't say I like such trite little rhymes. Has anyone on this thread said differently?
166Joansknight
Pope Pius IX, First Vatican Council, Sess. 3, Chap. 2 on Revelation, 1870: “Hence, also, that understanding of its sacred dogmas must be perpetually retained, which Holy Mother Church has once declared; and there must never be a recession from that meaning under the specious name of a deeper understanding.”
167Joansknight
fuit in diebus Herodis regis Iudaeae sacerdos quidam nomine Zaccharias de vice Abia et uxor illi de filiabus Aaron et nomen eius Elisabeth
168Joansknight
erant autem iusti ambo ante Deum incedentes in omnibus mandatis et iustificationibus Domini sine querella
169Joansknight
ecce concipies in utero et paries filium et vocabis nomen eius Iesum
170Joansknight
Neque enim Petri successoribus Spiritus sanctus promissus est, ut eo revelante novam doctrinam patefacerent, sed ut eo assistente traditam per apostolos revelationem seu fidei depositum sancte custodirent et fideliter exponerent. For the Holy Ghost was promised to the successors of Peter not so that they might, by His revelation, make known some new doctrine, but that, by His assistance, they might religiously guard and faithfully expound the revelation or Deposit of Faith transmitted by the Apostles.
- Vatican Council, Constitutio Dogmatica Prima de Ecclesia Christi (Pastor Aeternus), chap. 4, De Roma
Questa conversazione è stata continuata da Sedevacante & The One True Catholic Church (contued) Part VI.
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