Where FS books are being printed

Hello everyone. Since Folio has no intention of denoting where their books are being printed and many of you seem passionate about location, I thought it would be useful to keep track of them here. Having just received my orders from the September and Christmas collection, I'll get started -- if you have a book I don't, add an update and I'll edit this post.

Autumn

A Life in Letters and Diaries - Slovakia
Defeat Into Victory - Germany
The Elegant Universe - Slovakia
Period Piece - Germany
Great Expectations - China
King Leopold’s Ghost - Germany
The Mark of the Horse Lord - Italy
Northanger Abbey - Germany
The Little Prince - Italy
And Then There Were None - Germany
Three Men in a Boat - China

Christmas

Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? & A Scanner Darkly - Italy
Mansfield Park - Germany
East of Eden - Slovakia
Guns, Germs and Steel - Germany
Rumi: Selected Poems - Slovakia
She-Wolves - Germany
The Locked Room Mysteries - China
Moby-Dick - China
One Hundred and One Dalmatians - Italy
The Celts - China

Spring
The Hornblower Saga - Slovakia
The Diary of a Young Girl - China
The Golden Bough - Germany
Hide My Eyes - Slovakia
We - Italy
Voyages to the Moon and the Sun - Slovakia
Letters of Vincent van Gogh - Slovakia
Empire - Germany
Under Fire - China
Strangers on a Train - Germany
Goldfinger - Italy
The Expedition of Humphry Clinker - China

Summer
The Snow Leopard - Slovakia
The Yangtze Valley and Beyond - Italy
Japanese Tales - Italy
I Am Legend - Italy
Maigret - China
The Anglo-Saxons - Italy
Three Men on the Bummel - China
Steppenwolf - Germany
Most Notorious Pirates - Germany
12 Caesars - China
Italian Renaissance - Germany
South Polar Times - Slovakia
A Tale of Two Cities - China
Oliver Twist - China

Not one book printed in England!

I pay off my last installment in a few days, and then that might well be the end of my buying books from the Folio Society.

>1 gmacaree: Thank you for this helpful thread.

Other devotees have already mentioned that The Locked Room Mysteries and the Three Men in a Boat reprint are printed in China.

>3 cronshaw: Thanks! I added Moby-Dick too. No mystery about where that one originates!

>3 cronshaw:
Wales?

I like the concept of this thread, but would actually like a bit more info. I would like to have the publishing house and paper as detailed in the colophon as well as the year of printing. Is there a way we could organize this information in a sharable, editable by the group location in LT?

>6 sdawson: I think wcarter's list of all books published by FS would be a good candidate. If I recall correctly, that list was already being updated with info like print runs and types of paper.

>6 sdawson: if someone has a better way of doing things I am all ears :)

>1 gmacaree: Thank you so much for this list! One Hundred and One Dalmatians- Italy, from the Christmas Collection.

>1 gmacaree:
Thank you. This is very helpful.

>1 gmacaree:

My thanks also.

>1 gmacaree: Yes indeed, we are much obliged to you. I think someone mentioned that The Celts was also printed in China.

>1 gmacaree:

I do think it a terrible shame that Folio do not use British printers. I am sure there is quality within Albion's shores in this field of manufacturing.

I'm afraid I see Folio in a nosedive to the bottom, and have seen it for some time.

I've mentioned it before but I prognosticate that Folio will become at some point the BCA (Book Club Associates) of our times.

They like to man the phones with RP pronunciation, but other than that, what in essence is British about it?

>13 LesMiserables:

"I'm afraid I see Folio in a nosedive to the bottom, and have seen it for some time."

This is the inevitable result of the Folio Society transitioning from a company managed by book lovers to a company managed by corporate bean counters, who define success by increasing profit in each successive quarter, not aesthetic considerations. They will win in the very short term but will not survive in the long term - nor should they.

"Penny wise, pound foolish."

>13 LesMiserables: >14 dlphcoracl:
I feel you are being far too pessimistic. The FS is changing with the times, as they must to remain financially viable, but there has been no slowing in the rate at which they produce their beautiful new books (70 to 80 new titles a year), and the quality now is far better than it was in the 1970-80s. In fact I think the quality is as good as it has ever been. They may cater to a smaller clientele, but there are still sufficient lovers of good quality books to keep them afloat for the foreseeable future.

Ah, the never ending corporate drive to lower the cost of production and maximize profit for the owners/executives. No better way to improve the bottom line than to produce your goods on the cheap in a totalitarian state with no worker rights.

I think it would be nice to have a wiki devoted to keeping track of "made in China" products that we can add to from now on.

>19 EclecticIndulgence:
Subjective, I agree, but a combination of design, illustrations, binding, paper, feel and “presence”.

>1 gmacaree:

Great thread!

I like just having the info, let each person decide what's important to them.

I also believe overall quality has been better the last few years, but that could easily change as we've all seen happen before with other book publishers.

I hope for the best but prepare for the worst.

I don't care where the book is printed as long as it's produced to Folio standard. In these modern global times we can't be sure where anything comes from and it really doesn't matter.

>22 leemeadowcroft: It really doesn't matter? Music to the ears of totalitarian leaders everywhere.

I've been on LibraryThing 10 years today. All I know is that we would argue about the colour of sh*+*.

>24 LesMiserables: Congratulations on a solid decade of argument!

The colour issue is interesting: http://www.shetland-sheep.org.uk/page.php?Plv=2&P1=6&P2=4

>25 cronshaw:

Ha that's funny! :-) I have hand a sheep that big before. Heaven forbid!

>24 LesMiserables: A subject of more interest than some of the long futile threads on here. The Chinese had specialists in it (if 'The Last Emperor ' is to believed), I'm sure the Romans had more than a passing interest (pun intended), and the Bristol stool chart is always relevant.

Ah, copromancy. Not to be confused with the cop romance. On the other hand ...

>24 LesMiserables: "All I know is that we would argue about the colour of sh*+*."

As Andy Rooney asked, "Are there a thousand colors named brown?"

:)

"Ah, copromancy. Not to be confused with the cop romance. On the other hand .."

If it's on the other hand, you're doing it wrong.

Lots of Sh#t Stirring going on here ;-)

>30 Stoperat: Hence the expression cack handed...

I sent an email to Customer Services over 2 weeks ago about certain books and where they are printed, to which I received no reply. Silence from October 30th.

I'm sure they're hoping if they ignore the issue, and treat it as if it's not important, it will just go away.

>35 EclecticIndulgence: Thanks for that. I'm relieved that all the books I covet from the new collection are printed and bound in countries that don't persecute writers or booksellers.

>35 EclecticIndulgence: very interesting, thank you. The split is reamains more or less the same as for the previous two collections. Without wanting to reopen the whole debate, I'm happy that at least for the moment FS are principally supporting European printers (even if not UK ones). I dread to think what might happen after Brexit though...

>18 d-b: I think it would be nice to have a wiki devoted to keeping track of "made in China" products that we can add to from now on.

Why not just replace this one, which is code for "Beware! Made in China!" anyway?

It is confirmation that what FS told us regarding the Christmas collection is true. That they are a big company in the field of the better quality books and they needed to expand the presses they use to fulfill demand. And it shows they are not going to produce all books in China going forward.

Ironic that the main source is Slovakia, where at the moment there are demonstrations in the streets over the murder of an investigative journalist following his claim that the government was corrupt, with links to the mafia. Are we to boycott those books too?

>40 Jayked: Exactly. If we don’t differentiate between people, business and politics we are left with no options. Or are we to boycott British presses and bookbinders for the Brexiteers who lied to their own people and put a bomb under the European Union.

>40 Jayked: Well, Folio are also printing in Italy and I don't think many would dispute that the mafia have their fingers in a few pies there, the very same mafia linked to the Slovakian politicians in fact. The difference is that firstly these countries are democracies, held to account by their own people and in theory by the other nations of the EU, and secondly that mass demonstration in response to such events is an allowable course of action.

>40 Jayked: Ironic that the main source is Slovakia ... Are we to boycott those books too?

Well said, and I sincerely hope not. Actually, I have a certain (small) amount of sympathy to those who object to Folio doing business with China on ethical grounds, though it must prove difficult avoiding Chinese goods elsewhere in the UK market.

And that, I think, is the last comment I will make in this thread before blocking it. I know all too well where it's heading.

Thank you and goodnight.

If you read only every other line in this thread, you might get the impression that the Folio Society is actually run by the mafia now.

They made Folio an offer they couldn't refuse.

>35 EclecticIndulgence: done. thank you for remembering the thread and getting the information from Folio directly

>43 folio_books:
Now that, sir, is called having your cake and eating it ;-)

Could someone tell me where Mani and Roumeli were printed?

>48 overthemoon:

Germany: printed at Memmingen, bound at Ottersweier.

>49 terebinth: thanks!

I honestly find a lot of the discussion on this forum to be quite xenophobic. Is the fact that we now exist in a global economy such a terrible thing that others feel that their favourite book suppliers should ignore that and pretend like we are in the 1920s? What is it that people want? A slow death by bankrupcy because the product that “purists” would like is no longer profitable?

>51 leboucher:

Well, not only is it a globalised economy, but it's one where freedom of information is a popular demand. For myself I'll admit to being curious as to where Folio books are produced, though I'm currently unlikely to be swayed in my purchasing by such knowledge, unless curiosity gets the better of me in some instance and makes me more disposed to buy a book from a part of the world whose book manufacture is unknown to me. Or unless I start to notice that books from this or that printer and/or binder are reliably of a better, or a worse, standard than the usual.

Is it really an evil, though, for anyone to be moved, even within the said global economy, by a wish to support the economies of certain territories, or, whatever their reasons, to be unwilling to buy the products of some other territory? If books of a given quality can be produced for a much lower cost in China, is it only Folio's own scruples that should prevent the whole of their production being moved there, or would that refusal be offensive too?

The public is a mixture, and any part of it that absolutely refuses to buy the products of low-wage or politically unpalatable economies will, if it's prepared to buy such products at all, buy them sourced from other economies, presumably at prices sufficient to make them profitable if the businesses involved keep their wits about them. Either a lot of people will take such a stand, in which case various businesses will thrive by supplying them, or there will be few such "purists" and not much to be made from their custom. Seems fair to me either way.

>51 leboucher: >52 terebinth: I guess it would have taken the cake if Empire was printed and bound in China. I find terebinth his considerations well put but to reasonable. Especially the American Devotees have an unreasonable bias against everything China because that’s their current politics. The dearth of individual thinking and reason leads to sinophobia and has nothing to do with the quality of book production. We’re in a global economic times, but America first yadiyadiyada... It’s still up to the individual to spend his or her money as they see fit. A more balanced reasoning should all together be expected from the well read book lover. Not reactionary nonsense.

>53 NLNils:

"Especially American Devotees have an unreasonable bias against everything China because that's their current politics....American first yadiyadiyada....."

And Great Britain is entirely devoid of Brit-centric politics and emotions? Brexit, anyone??

>54 dlphcoracl: the sinophobic sentiments come mainly from American FSD members, not British ones. Whataboutthemism never got the human race anywhere.

>40 Jayked:
Rather than being ironic, I think this is a perfect illustration of one of the reasons I'd much prefer that some of my money trickle to Slovakia than China - I don't see any tanks rolling in to disperse the crowds.

What I do find ironic is that some undoubtedly liberal, progressive, and flat-out nice folks are quick to attach a label of a xenophobe and a racist to anyone who objects to a totalitarian and racist system.

>53 NLNils: "Especially American Devotees have an unreasonable bias against everything China because that's their current politics....American first yadiyadiyada....."

Wow, talk about sweeping generalizations! Please remember that a majority of US voters voted against the current administration. It would sure be nice if a book forum didn't devolve into political mud slinging. Also note that non-random, self selecting small sample sizes are usually poor representations of reality.

>57 kdweber: It is a generalization. As is China is bad. In no way do I want to offend everybody, but I didn’t start this topic or share its sentiment. I’ll refrain from further comment and let people who are interested in the origin of their FS books be.

>58 NLNils: I did start this topic. I am not American (and am, in fact, Chinese).

Much obliged for the information. Please continue this thread for the next collection. I will not be buying anything made in China.

Very pleased the Golden Bough is printed in Germany. I really want this edition.

>53 NLNils:

The distrust of goods made in China and sold in America has little to nothing to do with politics. The gradual decline in quality- or even average-made goods towards disposable poor-quality goods over the past several decades directly correlates to the replacement of goods made both in the USA or anywhere else by goods made in China, simply because China could somehow make things cheaper. That is the cause of the negative bias. Politics really only enters the conversation once jobs come into view. We brought the problem on ourselves by always going for bottom dollar in our daily purchases. When we've demanded better quality products in our collective purchasing habits we have seen quality improvements...it just takes time.

As long as Folio Society applies a consistent quality check on the books coming out of their new Chinese printing houses and is able to maintain quality, what does it matter? If something gets made that simply isn't up to their normal standards, everyone just return it. They'll get the picture. The same goes for the European printing houses...they just don't have that 30-40 year negative stigma built up. Give them a chance but let them know when there's a problem.

I've always noticed that the original UK contingent of Folio devotees seem to have, and rightly so, a significant pride in Folio as a uniquely English publisher.

Will you feel the same loyalty if Folio moves to China?

I also don't understand the anti-American venom that seems to come out on this forum in defense of China.

Yeah, we're way worse than China.

How many books is Folio selling in China?

I am pro UK, pro England, and I don't care who your elected officials are even if they are not doing a good job.

>51 leboucher: >53 NLNils: Accusations of xenophobia and vague generalisations are slightly tedious. The truth, as usual, is more complex. There were a number of reasons why some here feel that a move to China in Folio's particular case is a bad move. They were discussed in detail in a very long thread last year for anyone who is interested; I would not want to repeat them all here. I for one think it is healthy for our societies when individuals make economic decisions based on more than just price and quality alone - environmental and political considerations, for instance - as long as they are freely taken decisions and not imposed upon them by a higher authority. And be careful of generalisations btw: I'm from the UK and have lived and worked in several EU countries.

And if discussing the pros and cons of regimes around the world - including Western ones - is xenophobic, then I think that makes us all xenophobes, including (to play devil's advocate for a second) any European who has ever had a bad word to say about the current US administration.

>62 devilsisland:

What of Folio is left to move out of Britain - the distribution centre, editorial and design activity, financial ownership? Book production, as this thread again confirms, has, a few LEs aside, long since gone. I might feel differently if Folio books were still printed and bound here, but they're not, and I'm with the late Barbara Castle in having no devotion to the qualified EU internatiionalism that would "give priority to a Frenchman over an Indian, a German over an Australian, an Italian over a Malaysian".

My attachment to the FS, then, is all about the quality of its book design and production, but necessarily grounded in the choice and editorial treatment of the works it publishes. Lately for the most part that choice has left me behind, or I've left it behind. I've no allegiance to the present CEO and her team, so if more Folio books in future turn out to be ones I'd dearly wish to have on my shelves I'll buy them, quite regardless of where the board meetings happen.

>63 Levin40:
Well said, my thoughts exactly.

>62 devilsisland:
>63 Levin40:

Indeed.

The explanation of having access to information about sourcing and in choosing what to buy I do feel is a fair one. But for me as a newish and, I suppose, relatively young and British/European reader the tone that the discussions seem to veer into of “British is good” and “foreign is bad but some kinds of foreign are worse than others” troubles me. I wonder if people are as purist about the sources of other things they buy or is it just that they feel that books are different? (Fair enough if actually everyone objecting here is equally as strict about the origin of their socks.)

>67 leboucher:

If you cannot tell the difference between FS books printed and bound in Germany (usually the Memminger and Lachenmaier duo), e.g., The Vision of Piers Plowman, Dune, the Master and Margherita, Folio 60, Andrew Lang's 'Red Fairy Book', Beowulf, Leaves of Grass (the FS 2009 edition), etc. from those made in China, then you needn't concern yourself with any of this. For those of us who DO note and appreciate the difference, the Folio Society decision to increasingly source their books in China is a step in the wrong direction.

>68 dlphcoracl:

Forgive my asking, but does your post mean you've inspected some of Folio's Chinese-printed books, and found them wanting in particular aspects? That seems a necessary implication, but in that interminable thread here not so long ago a variety of more or less seasoned book lovers gave their impressions of Chinese volumes they had bought, and it seemed to me there was something approaching a consensus to the effect that production standards were quite as good as those we've come to expect. I haven't an opinion to offer on that score, as I've yet to meet a Chinese Folio book.

>68 dlphcoracl:

Not quite the point, I think. Memminger/Lachenmaier are not likely to provide a reasonable test, being markedly ahead of all the rest: the question is whether China can match the level of LEGO, Grafos or Neographia, who produce many of the more routine offerings from the FS. I'd expect that that would be the case, based on some of the more demanding non-Folio books I have that have been made in China.

This whole subject is gross, was gross the last time it came up, and just gives those that want to look down their nose at a certain group permission to do so.

There isn't any inherent quality in a good based upon where it came from. But feel free to attach whatever baggage you have already accumulated.

Bottom line, if the quality is there, I'll most likely not let the country of printing affect my purchase decision.

Having said that, I do feel a bit disappointed at European companies losing out on the business. Not a great direction.

Thank You EclecticIndulgence.

Would have liked to buy 12 Caesars and Dickens. I will definitely not be buying them.

Yes Thank you EclecticIndulgence

My buying decisions will be adjusted accordingly

>73 EclecticIndulgence: Yes, much obliged to EI for assiduously keeping this in view. Noteworthy that all the reprints are coming out of China, that is, those books with the shortest production gestation. Possibly with books printed in Germany, Italy and Slovakia we are seeing the runout of the books that in terms of production decisions predate the decision to print in China.

>73 EclecticIndulgence: I received mine yesterday and I can confirm that the Maigret set is a top quality production, and only fifteen pence more expensive than three uncollectables, which when the (cloth-covered) slipcase is factored in makes it considerably cheaper. Compared to the £34.95 German-built Steppenwolf (the quality of which there are apparently concerns about http://www.librarything.com/topic/291123) this looks like tremendous value to me.

To me the problem with printing in China isn't the quality - they're able to provide that if it's required - but the fact that there are certainly much bigger environmental issues than in western Europe (I can't really speak for eastern Europe but suspect that China is worse compared to there, too) and I don't want to support that particular political regime with my money. Which leaves me with a bit of a dilemma since I really like FS and their publications. This seems to me like a preparation for Brexit since it's highly likely that producing within the EU and importing the books into the UK will be more expensive than it is now. But their moving production to China instead really leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

>79 SF-72: "the problem with printing in China isn't the quality - they're able to provide that if it's required - but the fact that there are certainly much bigger environmental issues than in western Europe "

http://www.candcprinting.com/eng/about.php?id=431

http://www.candcprinting.com/eng/about.php?id=434

"I don't want to support that particular political regime with my money" A personal preference against which there is no argument.

And try finding a UK-based printer that will make a statement such as this: http://www.candcprinting.com/eng/about.php?id=49

I think the China ship sailed long before Folio jumped aboard, and before Hong Kong was abandoned to China. A great many art books by reputable publishers have been printed there because of the quality of their work. One example would be the 3-vol V & A Museum work on Western Illuminated Manuscripts from 2011, just reduced from 250 pounds sterling.
The countries that formed Czechoslovakia were notorious for pollution. Ironically what has helped them reduce it since joining Europe is the money earned by the pollution-producing products. One of them, Slovakia, is now printing Folio books. Isolating a country is never going to help it improve.

>80 HuxleyTheCat: "And try finding a UK-based printer that will make a statement such as this: http://www.candcprinting.com/eng/about.php?id=49"

You mean one in stilted English? ;-)

>79 SF-72:
That situation is changing rapidly, since China is refusing to accept plastic garbage from the rest of the world: https://news.sky.com/story/china-rejects-tonnes-of-uks-waste-plastic-prompting-f...
No Western country has apparently considered any solution for its waste other than to dump it on another country, which is then branded as a polluter.

>82 cpg: Given the literacy standards of the product that our current education system is producing, I think I'd go with the Hong Kong version. :-)

>83 Jayked:

I wasn't referring to plastic garbage, but one could hope that Europe and other countries finally try to actually find a solution to the waste of plastic and the resulting pollution other than just shipping it to other countries where some of it is re-cycled and the rest is gotten rid of in less than environmentally friendly ways. I read that the EU is considering a higher tax on plastic products in the hope that this will have an effect. Let's wait and see.

That being said: I'm hardly a specialist, but what little I know about the problems involved in book or generally paper production is more about water pollution. Another factor is of course where the material for the paper is sourced from, which can be more or less destructive. The information under >80 HuxleyTheCat: sounds great, but I must admit I'm not entirely trusting of information in this context: Self-announced and in a system that is well-known for its use of propaganda tools. Call me distrustful, that's certainly true enough and possibly uncalled for in this instance. All that being said: If things are as good as this company claims, that would be great. China has a serious problem with pollution and it's high time they're doing something about it, one company at a time and / or on a larger scale. And that's not to say that the rest of the world is blameless and doing everything right. It's mostly a matter of degree and one I'm trying to keep in mind when I buy something, just like whether or not I want to hand money to a government that's known for its abuse of human rights.

>85 SF-72: I'm glad that you qualified "but I must admit I'm not entirely trusting of information in this context" with "possibly uncalled for in this instance" as to not trust a company which looks like it is doing all the correct things (and Folio claim to have done due diligence) just because it is Chinese would be unfortunate; particularly when praising Western European companies, which we all know are bastions of integrity: VW anyone?

>85 SF-72:
You wouldn't be handing money to a government, but to a company that already had a long history in Hong Kong while it was still a British dependency. Having been forced willy-nilly into alliance with China, Hong Kong companies would be foolish not to expand their activities there. This particular company has been winning international awards for years. If you don't like a communist system, then a successful international business working on capitalist principles might be a step towards undermining it.

>87 Jayked:

It's not about communism or any other system but human rights for me. Communist systems have a bad history in that regard, but so have others. Some (more or less) democratic and definitely capitalist countries are doing really badly in this regard at the moment and / or have done so in the past.

>86 HuxleyTheCat:

'looks like' is interesting in this context - I don't feel that I know, but as I said: It would be nice if everything is as good as it sounds. And I did mention that the rest of the world isn't doing everything right either. VW certainly are an example for when a western company didn't. I can't believe that my own country is still heavily into using coal despite the environmental issues. I do know that a high quality paper company here is really looking into keeping things clean, so that's good. We can all do better, but there are still degrees and differences in just how bad it gets.

Believe it or not, this is not an attempt at bashing one country, though by now everyone should be well aware that China does indeed have a huge problem with pollution as well as human rights. Hong Kong in particular is in a pretty bad situation since a majority there would like to keep their human and civil rights but it doesn't look like the promises China made are being kept. Plain and simply: As I said this is a bit of a dilemma for me, and not one for which I have an easy solution. But I do think about where and whom I buy clothes from, for example (cotton can be a real problem, so can the dying process, the labour used etc.), or fruit, or yes - books. And that involves western countries, sometimes directly, sometimes because they get their literally dirty work done in countries that don't have the same laws when it comes to pollution or the abuse of workers. Call it a matter of responsibility. But that's a decision everyone has to make for themselves. Suffice it to say, on my part it's not about racism, thinking that the West is automatically better etc. We take responsibility when we buy something, and that can be a difficult issue.

And to conclude: In my experience, any kind of criticism or reservations about of a system, country, group of people etc. can very quickly be turned into a sign that the person stating those is a bigot, unfair, thinks too highly of their own group, country etc. So I think it's best to let my words stand as they are now instead of getting any deeper into it. I think I made my reasons clear, and also that I don't claim to know all the answers. That's the best I can do with this.

This is OT but still appropriate to the discussion. I recently acquired Palatino The Natural History of a Typeface, a 2016 Book Club of California limited edition by Robert Bringhurst, 325 copies signed by the author. While there are small letterpress and linotype sections printed in America, the 5-color offset printing and the binding were done by C&C on paper from the Yulong(Jade Dragon) Mill. Almost every page has sentence printing accompanied by border illustrations, charts, photos and typeface examples, the texture and aroma of the paper remind me of Mohawk Superfine, in all, this book is a skillful presentation of Bringhurst's intricate design.

This book and a few others I've seen show me that C&C can do high quality production.

One more time:

>90 Lim_See_Min:

I stated several times that to me it's not about what a political system calls itself, be it communism, democracy or something else. It's about human and civil rights being violated, which is unfortunately the case in China. The same happens in other countries, it has happened in communist systems, capitalist systems, (supposed) democracies, tyrannies and so on. Mankind has an ugly tendency towards this kind of thing, no matter what continent you're on or what country you're in. (And yes, my country went through such phases on a really large, ugly scale, too.)

Germany does comparatively well with regard to pollution today (historically that was different until fairly recently), but as stated before: We can and need to do better. One factor in our air pollution is the continued use of coal, another seems to be too much use of diesel cars. Which people bought more of in recent years because they were told those were relatively environmentally friendly, only our car companies cheated (VW was mentioned above) and that means that we've got a bigger problem than we thought. We're working on it, but forcing car owners to buy new cars straight away or be banned from driving in the cities where they live or work is something we'd naturally like to avoid. That would be a huge problem for most people - a car's not something that's easy to finance for most of us.

Just to give an example for how bad pollution in China can get that I experienced myself: On holiday in Hong Kong (on three separate occasions, so it wasn't just a one off problem), the air pollution was so bad I had black pores and nostrils whenever I spent some time outside. The air smelled of pollution, it was acrid, and it was a real relief when stronger winds came up since those brought fresh air from elsewhere and blew the polluted air away to some degree. I was told there that the water pollution is so bad that the mother's milk of the local dolphins kills their babies - it poisons them. They only have a chance of survival after the first few children have been killed like that since each time the level of toxins decreases somewhat. And let's not talk about the extreme waste of plastic and the lack of separating waste. At least there seems to be a growing awareness of that as a problem these days, so real improvements are hopefully not too far away. Germany isn't perfect, but it's nowhere near this level of bad. Neither were several other western European countries I visited. And judging by reports, Hong Kong is pretty good compared to some other places in China.

And yes, places in other countries, too, it isn't 'just' China. It seems to me that countries that start relatively fresh industrially go through a really dirty phase and finally improve things when they get bad enough. What I don't (entirely) get is why countries these days don't do better than this since they can see what mistakes other countries made before them, so they could avoid those. Money is certainly a factor, but it's not the only one. Sometimes there's simply a lack of will, too.

So again: Everyone has to make this decision for themselves and I don't have a perfect solution for myself. But just what do I want to support with my money? Is it quite alright to buy things from countries despite their human rights violations or pollution? Should I buy from companies that employ child labour or otherwise mistreat their workers? (And I mean several western companies producing in poorer countries by that.) Is it okay that people are paid badly and the environment is damaged as long as I can pay less? (And that involves goods in Germany, too.) Everyone has to make their own choices in this regard. A bit of awareness that there actually is a problem is necessary for that, though.

And lastly: What I find fascinating is that no matter how clearly I state that I don't mean a specific political system like communism, or a specific people, or that I know my country isn't perfect (just currently better than some that have more serious problems), I still get stuck into the same box again. So I'll stop going into this. I can't make it any clearer I think, and no matter how clearly I state it, someone will still go and put me into the same old box.

>1 gmacaree: If we're still doing this, the Hardy reprints in the Autumn Collection are made in China.

Is it possible to make an updatable doc on the wiki page listing where each book is printed? I would like this simply for categorical and reference purposes.

>93 EclecticIndulgence:

Same here, I had three emails about two different topics unanswered. I guess if they don't want to talk about something or would have to say no, they just don't reply. Very bad form.

>95 SF-72:
Or the upgrade to the new glorious website created such a flood of fan mail from ecstatic customers that they're a bit behind responding.

Seriously, FS has tens of thousands of customers. Even if a small part of their customer base asked for a spreadsheet with their past orders, customer service would be BURIED for days. To put it in perspective: in 2014 FS said that they had between 80K and 100K members every year, plus low tens of thousands who buy only 1-2 books for Christmas. So dismiss the latter, take the low end of the membership at 80K. Now even if only 1 out of 20 would ask for their order history, customer service would have to manually pull spreadsheets and email them out, manually again, for 4000 people. You can play with assumptions etc., but I'd be surprised if the poor customer service weren't busy answering a flood of requests

>96 elladan0891: When i read your numbers i think of my past order history, exel is proof, of me alone hypothetically sponsored the christmas party for FS in 2015 AND 2016. FAD is doing a lot of pulling for the company, therefore FS should enqurage FAD not choking themselves with ex. price raise, which eventually will heal FAD. If something is broken, fix it. If it`s not, maybe it needs some adjustments, but don`t fix what not broken.

.. Someday though, a chinese will jump out of a FS book .. beware ;)

>96 elladan0891:

My first two emails without a reply were sent several weeks (I think over a month) before the new website and the mess that followed. I quickly received a reply to my complaint about the 10% extra that clearly didn't fit the situation (fluctuating exchange rates were given as one reason although we pay in Pounds, for example), so that was a generic reply that was probably sent to everyone who sent such an email. Another sent with a different question a day later wasn't replied to. So no, I'm pretty sure it's not just an overworked customer service but a choice to not reply to questions they won't answer or can't answer in a customer-friendly way.

It should be mentioned that in the past I have written at busy and less busy times, and there was always a polite reply (even when they couldn't answer something), though maybe slightly more delayed.

>99 EclecticIndulgence: Thank you!

>99 EclecticIndulgence:

Thanks!

>99 EclecticIndulgence:

You have performed a valuable service for collectors who care about this - myself included. Many thanks!

>99 EclecticIndulgence:

Thanks for keeping track of this, we would never know if not for you!

>99 EclecticIndulgence:

Thanks!

>99 EclecticIndulgence:

Yes indeed, indebted to you for keeping this critical factor in view.

From the Christmas 2018 Collection

Of Mice and Men - Germany
Black Beauty - Italy
Starship Troopers - Germany

>107 EclecticIndulgence: So long, Eclectic. It’s my hope you won’t proceed with erasing all of your comments here on LT. I for one like to dive into old threads from time to time and it would be a shame if all that you contributed is lost for good. Of course they belong to you, as does your entire digital footprint.

I am American and I will say that China can make some very fine product. The production there is only as good as the importers' ability to manage and spec the process. If you get a cheap product from China blame the company that had it produced. For years model trains and other similar items have been made in China and the detail and quality is the best ever. I have heard stories of Chinese factories closing and taking all of the importers tooling/intellectual properties with it but I cant comment on those cases without accurate facts. (i.e. did the importer not pay them? or fail to set up the proper legal channels to protect what was their's?)

Where are the 2019 books printed?

>111 Lim_See_Min:
Well said, comrade Lim. The Communist Party of China approves this message.

I have deleted my above posts as they are causing too much unnecessary conflict - we will never come to a conclusion. As I had mentioned, it was all just what I had experienced. I shall apologise for the conflict I have caused, I had never intended that it would result in this.

I do however hope that >112 elladan0891: can take down the insult. Hopefully you did not mean to insult (criticise perhaps but not to the point of insulting), I do find it very insulting as I am a proud Singaporean who is proud of my country and nationality.

After all, I was just saying the reality I see or have seen. We travel to see what other places in the world are like. I hope this discussion has left none bitter or displeased with me because as I have mentioned, I was just talking about what I had experienced.

> a step in the wrong direction

I'd have to agree. I just began looking at Folio as a source of high quality editions. My hope was to find a publisher that did not have editions printed in China. The reason was that my family has returned so many books lately because they gave off noxious fumes causing breathing issues and headaches. These books all came from mainland China. I don't care about politics, I care about an acceptable minimum quality that the books be safe to "live with" and lately the ones from China have not been.

Are Folio's editions printed in China still held to the same standard as those printed in Germany or Britain?

>118 SlowMovingTarget:
Are Folio's editions printed in China still held to the same standard as those printed in Germany or Britain?
IMHO - Yes

There are good printers and bad printers in China just as in the States or anywhere else. It isn’t the country that should be held accountable, but the printer.

Thank you. That's good to know.

There are good printers in China, but when a preponderance of the material of late is bad, and the common factor is mainland China, it becomes an easy touchstone for judgement.

I ask as a (very) non-expert: is it safe to say that non-China printers have a much higher quality floor?

Hello all,

i know the original 2008 His Dark Materials was printed in Germany, but does anyone know about the 2018 reprint?

Thanks in advance.

Well, in case anybody's interested, I can now confirm that the 2018 reprint is also from Germany.

Was just informed by customer service that Heller's Catch-22 is now printed in China after the previous companies in England and Germany closed.

Thanks for this

Asked CS about a number of other titles that I've been thinking about and received this response from the very patient Sally over there...

"Titles printed in Italy include:

Ubik
The Wind in the Willows
Middlemarch
Breakfast at Tiffany's
Fahrenheit 451
Stasiland

Titles printed in Germany include:
I, Robot
Dune
Jane Eyre
Wuthering Heights

The Lord of the Flies is printed in Slovakia and

The Tenant of Wildfell Hall is printed in China."

Not sure if anyone else will find this pertinent but figured I'd share.

The Clicking of Cuthbert by P G Wodehouse : printed in China

A quote from FS in 2014:

"There is a lot of turmoil in the market. We are a craft publisher, and we know what we do well. We see ourselves at the vanguard of the printed book. Every year, we are putting more effort into our books in the sense of illustrations or bindings — our production director is very particular. Printing is done, whenever possible, in the UK, while it is also outsourced to other binderies and printers throughout continental Europe".

How times change...

>130 Conte_Mosca:

What does not change, Michael, is the Folio Society's occasional elasticity with the actualités: I have 181 FS books in my catalogue from the five years 2010 to 2014, of which 27, just 15%, were manufactured in the UK. These were by either TJ International, or the Martins of Berwick/Hunter & Foulis combination. It's not the FS's fault exactly: as has been discussed here from time to time, the very successful British book manufacturing industry threw its investment into mass market books, millions and millions of them, while several European and Hong Kong or Chinese companies invested in the plant needed for FS (or similar eg Thames and Hudson, Colllins New Naturalist) quality books.

>131 affle:

Alan, of course you are right, and that is undoubtedly a factor.

I am saddened by the decline in the British book manufacturing industry. I was reflecting on my Folio Society: The Early Days series, where every single publication in the series to date, from launch in 1947 to 1955 was printed and bound by quality printers and bookbinders in Britain, with the exception of three books from 1947-1948, which were printed and bound in Belgium due to paper rationing and the difficulties in finding printers willing to take on new work on post-war Britain (Charles Ede notes in Folio 21 that the first Folio publication, Tales by Tolstoy, was printed by Brepols as a favour and that the standard of printing left. good deal to be desired). But back to those great British printers and bookbinders:

The Chiswick Press - Closed 1962
Waterlow & Sons _ Ceased printing books when taken over by De La Rue 1961
Curwen Press - Closed 1984
R & R Clark - Closed 1979
Jarrold - Printing division sold 2005
Hunter & Foulis - In Administration 2002
Butler & Tanner - Closed 2014
Bath Press - Closed 2007

To name some of the most frequently used printers and book binders by the Folio Society, until they started "off-shoring" in and around the last decade. The vast majority (99% I would say) of all publications between 1947 and 2006 were printed and bound in Britain (just flick through any page of Folio 60). There is a chicken and egg situation to some extent of course, and Folio Society has to make money, but it would be great to see FS maintain a symbiotic relationship with some British printers and bookbinders to keep the British printing tradition going. Smith Settle has a great traditional book binding and printing press in Otley, and they printed and bound books such as Night Thoughts for the Folio Society (as well as doing the printing and binding at the more affordable, yet still high quality, end for Slightly Foxed). And the Saint Edmundsbury Press is still going, which produced many books for FS in the 1990s-2000s.

I should stress I am not quality bashing offshore printers and binders, especially some of the newer ones. I have no experience of those titles, as I prefer the older editions in FS's back catalogue. I am just sad to see FS unable (for whatever reason) to support our dwindling British printing and book binding tradition.

Market forces dictate, but my relationship with FS goes back over 50 years (my mother was a member when I was just a toddler encountering FS books on our bookshelves) to the days when Charles Ede was still running FS, a time when the FS was not about the money. And I miss those days (the days before the FS got itself into financial trouble I might add). Now it seems FS is just there to pump out anything that will make money, with a huge emphasis on high-margin LEs which are a world away from Charles Ede's mission for the FS to produce "editions of the world's great literature, in a format worthy of the contents, at a price within the reach of everyman."

I know I know, I am an old fuddy duddy living in the past. What can I say. I am resigned to seeing the Author Signed LE in full (bondage) leather of Fifty Shades of Grey in the upcoming list of new publications.

>131 affle:
TJ international are still going strong, and would likely be available at reasonable cost should FS choose to use them. The sewn illustrated paperbacks they produce locally for Little Toller are of a quality that puts most hardbacks to shame. Slightly Foxed use Smith Settle for everything they produce, all reasonably priced. On the other hand, firms like Faber, once known for their quality, now produce garbage by CPI Group, the multinational (now part of Impala) who bought and emasculated Folio's traditional printers. Folio hasn't sunk that low yet, but somebody's not trying very hard to buy British.

>131 affle:

the very successful British book manufacturing industry threw its investment into mass market books



And now even that's disappearing. This is the former site of the big paperback printers Cox & Wyman (CPI Cox & Wyman by the end) - the owners deemed it more profitable to close the business and sell the land.

I know we have seen it posted here several times before, but Smith Settle, keeping the British printing and book binding tradition alive.

http://smithsettle.com/birth-of-a-book-video

>134 housefulofpaper:
That was CPI's m/o; buy up a small company, strip it of its assets, and make it a branch of its own mass-market printing business, or close it down. Everybody saw it coming and nobody could stop it.
There are still a few independent binders around, such as the Fine Book Bindery, which did Rubaiyat, Wind in the Willows and Gulliver for Folio, though I expect they're too labour-intensive for large runs at reasonable prices.

Really sad to see this decline. I blame Amazon for this. It put lot of pressure on the book publishing industry. And now what do we get? Unreadable books in tint font. That horrible company raised money and sold / is selling books at a loss. How can booksellers compete with that? In countries like India Amazon is yet to turn a profit despite doing business for decades.

>137 bookish_elf:

I blame it on the people who never buy a book at full price anymore and always look for deals. That forced a lot of publishers into selling via Amazon (that and the fact that most people won't look beyond it) with deep discounts which lowered their profit (it was more convenient but still). Amazon just used the opportunity to capitalize on it -- they may not be making money somewhere but cornering the market will eventually get them the profits.

Horrible or not -- until people buy from them, they will have the power to dictate conditions. I buy my standard non-small publishers editions from them as well -- but at least for small publishers, I would rather go directly to the source.

>138 AnnieMod: True. But I have seen a lot of bookshops close in my place due to Amazon. These bookshop owners are people who are passionate about books and were definitely not running it for profit. It hurts to see them being thrown out of business because some company managed to raise billions in venture capital and then slashed prices to a level which put undue pressure on bookshop owners. Also there are more people buying clothes, accessories and gadgets than books.

>139 bookish_elf:

That does not contradict what I am saying though. Yes - Amazon effectively destroyed a lot of the small bookstores - partially by getting people away from them and partially by forcing them into selling with unsustainable prices (at least the ones that tried to fight it that way). Even if Amazon are away from innocent, they had a willing accomplice in the public who decided to use them. If it was not Amazon, it would have been someone else. The same is happening everywhere -- small grocery stores close because of the super-chains for example. I can hate the process but it is what it is. And even if Amazon stops tomorrow, someone else will just pick up and run with the idea.

At least in the US and UK, things weren't that simple. On one level, Amazon did make life harder for independent book shops - but they did even more damage to their main competitors - big book store chains, and even supermarkets. This interview covers some of that:

https://www.npr.org/2018/03/29/598053563/why-the-number-of-independent-bookstore...

Recently there has been a strong bounce back, with sustained growth in indie bookstores numbers over several years. Covid-19 isn't going to help, but I think there's still cause for optimism on the retail front.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/jan/10/indie-bookshops-grow-high-street-d...
https://www.forbes.com/sites/pamdanziger/2020/02/12/how-indie-bookstores-beat-am...

Returning to manufacturing however, I do have to agree it's a real shame that so little is done in the UK. Perhaps the new age of Kickstarter fine press projects can change this.

>1 gmacaree: The Farseer Trilogy - China

Would anyone happen to know where the most recent printing of Grimm's Fairy Tales was printed?

I'm aware that Folio 60 mentions that the colour reproduction in Rackham's illustrations was not as good in the 2006 impression as in previous printings. Since the current stock level appears to be about 130, I'm wondering whether to order the current edition from FS or perhaps seek out an earlier printing?

16th printing 2011 is Martin's the Printers Ltd. Berwick on Tweed, Caxton Wove paper, bound by Hunter and Foulis Haddington.

>142 bookish_elf:
That’s a shame. I was planning on buying this too. Knowing that it is printed in China though, I cannot justify the expenditure. Thank you for the info.

>145 ranbarnes: Thank you, kindly! Useful to know they were printed in the UK, at least up until that point.

Is it possible that the currently available edition was printed at Martin's the Printers? I was under the impression that no Folio Society standard editions were printed in the UK anymore, and had wondered if these were now printed in Europe or China.

>146 Green_krkr: You are welcome. I still bought it because I couldn't find a better edition and the paper quality is good, though definitely not as well made as the George RR Martin series.

By any chance does anyone know where the current edition of American Gods is printed?

>149 abysswalker: I got mine from FS a few months ago and it is printed in Slovenia

The spring collection thread reported the recent The Descent of Man is printed in China. Anyone know where the 2008 edition was printed?

>151 Bacon.And.Eggs:

Germany.

>152 adriano77: Interesting. Thanks!

Does anyone have the recently reprinted version of Jurassic Park? (The one that can be bought on the web site right now.) If so, can you check where it is printed?

(Tangent, maybe it would make sense to have a “where printed” thread for new collections when released? Would be easier to reference.)

>154 abysswalker:

Italy.

I've been meaning to create a thread for that as I've started collecting print information in a spreadsheet, using this thread and other sources, a while ago. Still has plenty of gaps but would make sense to get help.

>155 adriano77: thanks!

Let me know if there’s anything I can do to help (feel free to send private message).

Night at the Circus - Angela Carter

Printed in Germany

I think it would be helpful if The Folio Society in drafting the marketing blurb for a new book discloses where it was both printed and bound.

The Society seem happy to disclose when some prestigious German binder is involved with one of their books, but perhaps are not so upfront with their books that are 'Printed in China'.

As a UK bookshop selling various Folio Society books, I have a particular concern around this issue. In selling Folio Books around the world I have to certify on each exported order an international Customs declaration and this requites a statement as to where the book is produced.

Where the UK has a trade agreement with another country the sale of a UK book may have exemption from local import duties, but with The Folio Society having books printed in China, are the books actually produced in the UK?

The very same issue will increasingly apply on a very large scale to The Folio Society.

The newly independent UK is very keen to strike trade agreements around much of the world but the exemptions granted under those formal agreements will typically only apply to goods produced by the countries who have made that agreement.

Anyone know where Parallel Worlds and Order of Time were printed? Thanks in advance.

>159 icewindraider:

Parallel Worlds - Printed on Abbey Wove at Memminger MedienCentrum AG, Germany.

The Order of Time - The text has been printed on Abbey Pure Rough paper and bound in Duchesse Orientblau cloth by Gomer Press Ltd, Llandysul, Wales.

eta more detail

>160 bookfair_e: thanks!

>158 English-bookseller:

They won’t because it’s widely believed, with some justification, that China-printed books are of poorer quality.

>162 pse1:
I dont know why someone should want to print books in China tbh, but I like my China Folio books so far. They smelled a little, but that wears of pretty soon.

>163 Ragnaroek: I am afraid it comes down to filthy lucre...

>41 NLNils: Exactly. If we don’t differentiate between people, business and politics we are left with no options.

And what about the 'art' itself?

Should we not separate that out too?

I'm reminded of, for example, the exquisite work of Eric Gill despite his human failings.

>162 pse1: I would like to know so I can specifically feel better about buying the ones that aren't printed in China. Speciality books on the whole is already a luxury item, keeping the trade and printers alive in the neighbourhood is something that justifies some of the cost to me.
I think it'd average out to more sales overall. Most people don't seem to care.

>166 A.Godhelm:

I care - a lot - but sometimes don't have a choice. Lately a lot of US authors who do Kickstarters with nice edition gave up on producing at home since printers / binders there became more and more expensive while delivering very unreliable quality. So they moved to China instead. But that's a position FS doesn't seem to be in. It feels like with them, it's really only about their profit margin. I'd really prefer it if they stuck with European companies instead.

>167 SF-72: one of the clearest examples of this is the whole issue with the Malazan reprints from Subterranean. All printed in the US. First book was priced at $175 and there were binding errors which were corrected but in the end the book was sold with minor defects. Second book was priced at $225 and produced by the same printer. Now, the third book had to be returned to the printer (a new one after the experience of the former), we don't know when we're going to get it, and was probably going to be priced between $275 and $300.