Francis, part 8 (2017)
Questo è il seguito della conversazione Francis, part 7 (2016).
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2timspalding
Okay, let's have your papal, and church, predictions! Here's mine:
100% chance — Pope Francis gives another in-flight interview
100% chance — Pope Francis disappoints conservatives
100% chance — Pope Francis disappoints liberals
50% chance — Another major magisterial document
50% chance — Group of Nine has composition changed
25% chance — If document, it could reasonably be called a doctrinal development
75% chance — A major fight between the US Catholic church and the Administration, over immigration
50% chance — Pope Francis gets in a fight (probably implied, not direct) with Donald Trump
100% chance — The trads get more extreme
75% chance — Cardinal Burke "formally corrects" Pope Francis, probably with some others
50% chance — Pope Francis punishes Burke for it, if he does it
10% chance — Cardinal Burke proclaims Pope Francis a formal heretic and no longer Pope
10% chance — The Schism of the Trads
5% Francis dies
5% Gets very sick
5% Resigns
100% chance — Pope Francis gives another in-flight interview
100% chance — Pope Francis disappoints conservatives
100% chance — Pope Francis disappoints liberals
50% chance — Another major magisterial document
50% chance — Group of Nine has composition changed
25% chance — If document, it could reasonably be called a doctrinal development
75% chance — A major fight between the US Catholic church and the Administration, over immigration
50% chance — Pope Francis gets in a fight (probably implied, not direct) with Donald Trump
100% chance — The trads get more extreme
75% chance — Cardinal Burke "formally corrects" Pope Francis, probably with some others
50% chance — Pope Francis punishes Burke for it, if he does it
10% chance — Cardinal Burke proclaims Pope Francis a formal heretic and no longer Pope
10% chance — The Schism of the Trads
5% Francis dies
5% Gets very sick
5% Resigns
3John5918
There's a very strong chance that Francis will heed the call of the March 2016 Vatican conference organised by the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace and Pax Christi International to mainstream nonviolence and just peace as part of Catholic teaching. His message for the 2017 World Day of Peace already indicates that he's moving in that direction. There might be an encyclical on nonviolence, although there's no indication whether it would be in 2017 or later.
There's a very good chance that Francis will visit South Sudan in 2017.
More cardinals will be created. Some of them will be a surprise to the establishment, but the type of cardinals selected will not come as a surprise to most people.
The Pope will continue to try to reform the Curia; the Curia will continue to resist. Decentralisation will render the Curia less powerful.
The vast majority of the Church (both the people and the hierarchy) will continue to welcome the open pastoral stance of Pope Francis and the Church will continue to move forwards with hope and positvity. Tim is probably right that there will be a tiny minority, including one or two prominent but out of touch prelates, who try to resist.
There's a very good chance that Francis will visit South Sudan in 2017.
More cardinals will be created. Some of them will be a surprise to the establishment, but the type of cardinals selected will not come as a surprise to most people.
The Pope will continue to try to reform the Curia; the Curia will continue to resist. Decentralisation will render the Curia less powerful.
The vast majority of the Church (both the people and the hierarchy) will continue to welcome the open pastoral stance of Pope Francis and the Church will continue to move forwards with hope and positvity. Tim is probably right that there will be a tiny minority, including one or two prominent but out of touch prelates, who try to resist.
4timspalding
More cardinals will be created. Some of them will be a surprise to the establishment, but the type of cardinals selected will not come as a surprise to most people.
I'm not sure he'll make anymore in 2017. He'll be installing them, but I don't think the math supports a new round, unless flu sweeps the cardinalate, or some, like Burke, leave.
There might be an encyclical on nonviolence, although there's no indication whether it would be in 2017 or later.
I gotta say, I'm afraid of that. I don't find Francis' geopolitical views well-informed at all. He seems to think the big problem with war is arms dealers, which is silly.
The Pope will continue to try to reform the Curia; the Curia will continue to resist. Decentralisation will render the Curia less powerful.
I don't get a sense he's making a lot of headway.
There's a very good chance that Francis will visit South Sudan in 2017.
That would be lovely. I hope you guys don't slip into full-scale civil war.
I'm not sure he'll make anymore in 2017. He'll be installing them, but I don't think the math supports a new round, unless flu sweeps the cardinalate, or some, like Burke, leave.
There might be an encyclical on nonviolence, although there's no indication whether it would be in 2017 or later.
I gotta say, I'm afraid of that. I don't find Francis' geopolitical views well-informed at all. He seems to think the big problem with war is arms dealers, which is silly.
The Pope will continue to try to reform the Curia; the Curia will continue to resist. Decentralisation will render the Curia less powerful.
I don't get a sense he's making a lot of headway.
There's a very good chance that Francis will visit South Sudan in 2017.
That would be lovely. I hope you guys don't slip into full-scale civil war.
5John5918
Pope declares 'zero tolerance' for sexual abuse in Catholic church (Guardian)
December letter becomes public in which Francis denounces ‘atrocities’ by clergy as ‘a sin that shames us’ and must be rooted out
December letter becomes public in which Francis denounces ‘atrocities’ by clergy as ‘a sin that shames us’ and must be rooted out
7timspalding
My guesses:
10% More movement toward married priests?
33% Some kind of attack at Vatican or around Pope outside of Vatican, God forbid?
90% Extremist attacks on Catholic church outside of direct conflict zone in Syria/Iraq
I'm afraid that poor priest, Fr. Uzhunnalil, is as good as dead. FWIW, I think the Vatican should follow the US and some other countries in never paying random, or collaborating in helping a third-party pay ransom.
Oh, anyone got some Duerte percentages? What a piece of work he is!
10% More movement toward married priests?
33% Some kind of attack at Vatican or around Pope outside of Vatican, God forbid?
90% Extremist attacks on Catholic church outside of direct conflict zone in Syria/Iraq
I'm afraid that poor priest, Fr. Uzhunnalil, is as good as dead. FWIW, I think the Vatican should follow the US and some other countries in never paying random, or collaborating in helping a third-party pay ransom.
Oh, anyone got some Duerte percentages? What a piece of work he is!
8John5918
>4 timspalding: There might be an encyclical on nonviolence, although there's no indication whether it would be in 2017 or later.
I gotta say, I'm afraid of that. I don't find Francis' geopolitical views well-informed at all.
I think you underestimate the expert analysis on war and peace which the pope has at his disposal. His message for the World Day of Peace was clearly influenced by the nonviolence conference held in Rome in March 2016, organised by the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace and Pax Christi International, in which about 85 experts participated, the majority from countries which are currently suffering violent conflicts or have recently come out of conflict, but also including theologians, scripture scholars, academics and others. A great deal of work on active nonviolence and just peace is going on in many quarters, and it's unthinkable that Francis would write an encyclical without taking account of this expertise.
It might also be noted that he is not out on a limb, but is continuing a way of thinking that recent popes (John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul II and Benedict XVI) have all been developing.
He seems to think the big problem with war is arms dealers, which is silly.
Well, indeed it would be silly if that summed up his position. It doesn't and thus it isn't. I've just gone back and skimmed his message for the the World Day of Peace and as far as I can see there is no mention of arms dealers. They are certainly a facet of the problem of violence, but it is a vast and complex issue which cannot be reduced to a single factor.
Edited to add: I've just remembered that the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace no longer exists - its role has been subsumed into the new Dicastery for Promoting Integral Human Development, still headed by Cardinal Peter Turkson and still committed to the nonviolence narrative.
I gotta say, I'm afraid of that. I don't find Francis' geopolitical views well-informed at all.
I think you underestimate the expert analysis on war and peace which the pope has at his disposal. His message for the World Day of Peace was clearly influenced by the nonviolence conference held in Rome in March 2016, organised by the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace and Pax Christi International, in which about 85 experts participated, the majority from countries which are currently suffering violent conflicts or have recently come out of conflict, but also including theologians, scripture scholars, academics and others. A great deal of work on active nonviolence and just peace is going on in many quarters, and it's unthinkable that Francis would write an encyclical without taking account of this expertise.
It might also be noted that he is not out on a limb, but is continuing a way of thinking that recent popes (John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul II and Benedict XVI) have all been developing.
He seems to think the big problem with war is arms dealers, which is silly.
Well, indeed it would be silly if that summed up his position. It doesn't and thus it isn't. I've just gone back and skimmed his message for the the World Day of Peace and as far as I can see there is no mention of arms dealers. They are certainly a facet of the problem of violence, but it is a vast and complex issue which cannot be reduced to a single factor.
Edited to add: I've just remembered that the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace no longer exists - its role has been subsumed into the new Dicastery for Promoting Integral Human Development, still headed by Cardinal Peter Turkson and still committed to the nonviolence narrative.
11John5918
Pope Francis: Jihadist attacks are 'homicidal madness' (BBC)
"I appeal to all religious authorities to join in reaffirming unequivocally that one can never kill in God's name"
"I appeal to all religious authorities to join in reaffirming unequivocally that one can never kill in God's name"
12PossMan
From Fraser Nelso in The Spectator
http://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/why-more-and-more-priests-cant-stand-pope-fra...
http://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/why-more-and-more-priests-cant-stand-pope-fra...
13John5918
>12 PossMan:
Thanks for this. Reading it quickly it seems to me that he is talking mainly about priests in the Vatican. I suppose it may also be true of priests of a certain persuasion in the USA and Europe. I can't say that I have heard any major criticism of the pope from the priests and bishops with whom I work and interact, far away from the culture wars, even though they may not agree with everything that he says and does.
Thanks for this. Reading it quickly it seems to me that he is talking mainly about priests in the Vatican. I suppose it may also be true of priests of a certain persuasion in the USA and Europe. I can't say that I have heard any major criticism of the pope from the priests and bishops with whom I work and interact, far away from the culture wars, even though they may not agree with everything that he says and does.
14PossMan
>13 John5918:: Just to be clear I have no quarrel with Francis and also have no access to the the views of Vatican insiders, priest, or bishops so I wasn't endorsing the article in any way.
17margd
Pope Takes Over Knights of Malta After Condom Dispute
The Vatican said Wednesday it was taking over the embattled Knights of Malta lay Catholic order in an extraordinary display of papal power after the Knights' grand master publicly defied Pope Francis in a bitter dispute over condoms...
The dispute had once again pit Francis against Cardinal Raymond Burke, a leading conservative and Francis critic who also happens to be the pope's envoy to the order...
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/knights-malta-head-resigns-amid-sp...
The Vatican said Wednesday it was taking over the embattled Knights of Malta lay Catholic order in an extraordinary display of papal power after the Knights' grand master publicly defied Pope Francis in a bitter dispute over condoms...
The dispute had once again pit Francis against Cardinal Raymond Burke, a leading conservative and Francis critic who also happens to be the pope's envoy to the order...
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/knights-malta-head-resigns-amid-sp...
18margd
The Pope Video 02-2017 – Welcome the needy – February 2017 (1:08)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBU4kj51rxQ
February 2, 2017. The Pope Video. The Pope reminds us that in our world, there are a lot of people who live weighed down, in situations of poverty. They are refugees or are at the margins of society. With Pope Francis, we pray for them so they encounter in our communities the welcome and support they need.
“We live in cities that throw up skyscrapers and shopping centers and strike big real estate deals … but they abandon a part of themselves to marginal settlements on the periphery
The result of this situation is that great sections of the population are excluded and marginalized: without a job, without options, without a way out.
Don’t abandon them. Pray with me for those who are weighed down, especially the poor, refugees and marginalized, that they might find welcome and support in our communities.”
******************************************
The Pope Just Threw Shade At Trump In The Classiest Way Possible
That’s some holy shade.
..."The YouTube video announced Francis’ prayer intentions for the month of February. "...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/pope-francis-refugee-video_us_5894b2f3e4b0c1...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBU4kj51rxQ
February 2, 2017. The Pope Video. The Pope reminds us that in our world, there are a lot of people who live weighed down, in situations of poverty. They are refugees or are at the margins of society. With Pope Francis, we pray for them so they encounter in our communities the welcome and support they need.
“We live in cities that throw up skyscrapers and shopping centers and strike big real estate deals … but they abandon a part of themselves to marginal settlements on the periphery
The result of this situation is that great sections of the population are excluded and marginalized: without a job, without options, without a way out.
Don’t abandon them. Pray with me for those who are weighed down, especially the poor, refugees and marginalized, that they might find welcome and support in our communities.”
******************************************
The Pope Just Threw Shade At Trump In The Classiest Way Possible
That’s some holy shade.
..."The YouTube video announced Francis’ prayer intentions for the month of February. "...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/pope-francis-refugee-video_us_5894b2f3e4b0c1...
19margd
17 Knights of Malta/Cardinal Burke contd.
Mysterious Posters Take Jab at Pope Francis as Conservative Criticism Intensifies
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/mysterious-posters-take-jab-pope-francis-conse...
Mysterious Posters Take Jab at Pope Francis as Conservative Criticism Intensifies
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/mysterious-posters-take-jab-pope-francis-conse...
20Crypto-Willobie
Bannon vs the Pope...
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/07/world/europe/vatican-steve-bannon-pope-franci...
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/07/world/europe/vatican-steve-bannon-pope-franci...
22margd
Pope admits corruption at the Vatican in wide-ranging talk to men religious
...asked by one of the religious leaders how he maintains serenity in his work.
"I do not take tranquilizers!" Francis joked, before adding: "The Italians offer good advice: to live in peace you need a healthy dose of not caring."
"I am at peace," said the pontiff, explaining that he has a small statue of a sleeping St. Joseph on his desk and that he places notes identifying problems he needs Joseph to help with under the statue.
"Now he is sleeping under a mattress of notes!" he joked again. "That is why I sleep well: it is a grace of God."
...Asked about how to prevent sexual abuse in religious orders, Francis says there is not time in their meeting for a "very articulated response" to the question. But he tells the religious to "be careful in receiving formation candidates to the religious life without evaluating well their sufficient affective maturity."
"Never receive to the religious life or to a diocese candidates that have been rejected from another seminary or from another Institute without asking for clear and detailed information on the motivations for their moving away," the pontiff advises...
https://www.ncronline.org/news/vatican/pope-admits-corruption-vatican-wide-rangi...
...asked by one of the religious leaders how he maintains serenity in his work.
"I do not take tranquilizers!" Francis joked, before adding: "The Italians offer good advice: to live in peace you need a healthy dose of not caring."
"I am at peace," said the pontiff, explaining that he has a small statue of a sleeping St. Joseph on his desk and that he places notes identifying problems he needs Joseph to help with under the statue.
"Now he is sleeping under a mattress of notes!" he joked again. "That is why I sleep well: it is a grace of God."
...Asked about how to prevent sexual abuse in religious orders, Francis says there is not time in their meeting for a "very articulated response" to the question. But he tells the religious to "be careful in receiving formation candidates to the religious life without evaluating well their sufficient affective maturity."
"Never receive to the religious life or to a diocese candidates that have been rejected from another seminary or from another Institute without asking for clear and detailed information on the motivations for their moving away," the pontiff advises...
https://www.ncronline.org/news/vatican/pope-admits-corruption-vatican-wide-rangi...
23margd
Vatican laughs off news spoof amid conservative criticism
Vatican officials are brushing off a spoof Vatican newspaper mock-up poking fun at Pope Francis that points to increasing conservative criticism of his mercy-over-morals priorities...
http://www.ksby.com/story/34476848/vatican-laughs-off-news-spoof-amid-conservati...
Vatican officials are brushing off a spoof Vatican newspaper mock-up poking fun at Pope Francis that points to increasing conservative criticism of his mercy-over-morals priorities...
http://www.ksby.com/story/34476848/vatican-laughs-off-news-spoof-amid-conservati...
24John5918
Archbishop Justin Welby's remarks seem to have resonance with the pope in >16 John5918:
Archbishop of Canterbury suggests Brexit 'in fascist tradition' (Guardian)
Archbishop of Canterbury suggests Brexit 'in fascist tradition' (Guardian)
27John5918
On ecumenism and with an honourable mention of South Sudan...
Pope’s Q & A at Anglican All Saints Church (Zenit)
Pope’s Q & A at Anglican All Saints Church (Zenit)
32John5918
Five great achievements of Pope Francis' first four years (NCR)
a new way of evangelizing... allowing open discussion and debate in the church... presenting a new way of thinking about moral issues in Chapter 8 of Amoris Laetitia. He is moving the church away from an ethics based on rules to one based on discernment... raised environmental issues to a central place in the Catholic faith... reform the governance structures of the church. True, reform of the Roman Curia has proceeded slowly, but it is happening...
Priests and marriage: Pope's response not so new after all (CNS)
Pope Francis is pushing for change. Now the church must catch up (Guardian)
a new way of evangelizing... allowing open discussion and debate in the church... presenting a new way of thinking about moral issues in Chapter 8 of Amoris Laetitia. He is moving the church away from an ethics based on rules to one based on discernment... raised environmental issues to a central place in the Catholic faith... reform the governance structures of the church. True, reform of the Roman Curia has proceeded slowly, but it is happening...
Priests and marriage: Pope's response not so new after all (CNS)
Pope Francis is pushing for change. Now the church must catch up (Guardian)
34John5918
Pope apologizes for Catholics' participation in Rwanda genocide (Catholic News Service)
35John5918
POPE FRANCIS URGES EU LEADERS TO RISE TO CHALLENGES OF MODERN WORLD TO AVOID SLIP INTO 'OLD AGE' (Tablet)
the Pope urged them to build an open future for the continent that welcomes migrants and build a solidarity that overcomes the “egotism” of new populism...
Short memories, the Pope went on, had led leaders to forget the efforts made to bring down the barriers of cold war, while today the pre-occupation was how to stop new arrivals. Francis has consistently called for Europe to welcome refugees, recently describing the new waves of migration as the greatest humanitarian crisis since the Second World War...
“Where generations longed to see the fall of those signs of forced hostility, these days we debate how to keep out the 'dangers' of our time: beginning with the long file of women, men and children fleeing war and poverty, seeking only a future for themselves and their loved ones...”
the Pope urged them to build an open future for the continent that welcomes migrants and build a solidarity that overcomes the “egotism” of new populism...
Short memories, the Pope went on, had led leaders to forget the efforts made to bring down the barriers of cold war, while today the pre-occupation was how to stop new arrivals. Francis has consistently called for Europe to welcome refugees, recently describing the new waves of migration as the greatest humanitarian crisis since the Second World War...
“Where generations longed to see the fall of those signs of forced hostility, these days we debate how to keep out the 'dangers' of our time: beginning with the long file of women, men and children fleeing war and poverty, seeking only a future for themselves and their loved ones...”
41John5918
>40 margd:
And I had just posted the link in >39 John5918: to the wrong thread, the very same thread where you have now posted what I presume you initially posted in >40 margd:.
Must be something in the air this morning...
And I had just posted the link in >39 John5918: to the wrong thread, the very same thread where you have now posted what I presume you initially posted in >40 margd:.
Must be something in the air this morning...
42timspalding
Happy Holy Saturday, guys. :)
45bnielsen
>42 timspalding: And Easter Greetings to you all! (I'm not a Catholic but I spent the week in Malaga amidst pointed hats in red, green, and black, so I got my share of Catholic Easter anyway :-)
47eschator83
His remarks seem deeply troubling, don't you think?
50John5918
Francis has been busy!
Francis tells US, North Korea to cool nuclear tensions, seek mediation
Pope Francis and Coptic pope agree not to re-baptize
In Egypt, Francis exhorts religions to condemn 'violence masquerading as sanctity'
Francis 'rewriting Italian church history' with visit to priests' tombs in June
All from NCR.
Francis tells US, North Korea to cool nuclear tensions, seek mediation
Pope Francis and Coptic pope agree not to re-baptize
In Egypt, Francis exhorts religions to condemn 'violence masquerading as sanctity'
Francis 'rewriting Italian church history' with visit to priests' tombs in June
All from NCR.
51margd
Poor Pope Francis--he'll need every ounce of civility, I bet, but will do what needs to be done for peace and for the least among us..."my cardinals"!!!
Saudi Arabia and Israel Will Be on Itinerary of Trump’s First Foreign Trip
PETER BAKERMAY | 4, 2017
President Trump will travel to Saudi Arabia and Israel this month, the White House announced on Thursday, making the two countries his first foreign destinations since taking office, as he seeks to intensify the war against the Islamic State, rally the region against Iran and negotiate Middle East peace.
Mr. Trump will also visit Rome to meet Pope Francis, completing a tour of the centers of the three major monotheistic religions in what aides said was an effort to seek unity against common enemies. The stops were added to the front of a previously scheduled trip to Brussels and Sicily for back-to-back summit meetings held by NATO and the Group of 7 economic powers.
“Tolerance is the cornerstone of peace,” Mr. Trump said a ceremony at the White House. “That is why I am proud to make a major and historic announcement this morning and share with you that my first foreign trip as president of the United States will be to Saudi Arabia, then Israel, and then to a place that my cardinals love very much, Rome.”...
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/04/us/politics/trump-to-visit-saudi-arabia-and-i...
Saudi Arabia and Israel Will Be on Itinerary of Trump’s First Foreign Trip
PETER BAKERMAY | 4, 2017
President Trump will travel to Saudi Arabia and Israel this month, the White House announced on Thursday, making the two countries his first foreign destinations since taking office, as he seeks to intensify the war against the Islamic State, rally the region against Iran and negotiate Middle East peace.
Mr. Trump will also visit Rome to meet Pope Francis, completing a tour of the centers of the three major monotheistic religions in what aides said was an effort to seek unity against common enemies. The stops were added to the front of a previously scheduled trip to Brussels and Sicily for back-to-back summit meetings held by NATO and the Group of 7 economic powers.
“Tolerance is the cornerstone of peace,” Mr. Trump said a ceremony at the White House. “That is why I am proud to make a major and historic announcement this morning and share with you that my first foreign trip as president of the United States will be to Saudi Arabia, then Israel, and then to a place that my cardinals love very much, Rome.”...
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/04/us/politics/trump-to-visit-saudi-arabia-and-i...
53John5918
Pope Francis angered by America's 'mother of all bombs' name (BBC)
"I was ashamed when I heard the name," the pontiff told an audience of students at the Vatican. "A mother gives life and this one gives death, and we call this device a mother. What is going on?"
"I was ashamed when I heard the name," the pontiff told an audience of students at the Vatican. "A mother gives life and this one gives death, and we call this device a mother. What is going on?"
54John5918
Pope Francis casts doubt on Virgin Mary apparitions at Bosnian pilgrimage site (Guardian
pope says ‘these supposed apparitions don’t have much value’
Pope Francis canonises two children at Portugal's Fatima shrine (BBC)
Francis on meeting Trump: 'There are always doors that are not shut' (NCR)
pope says ‘these supposed apparitions don’t have much value’
Pope Francis canonises two children at Portugal's Fatima shrine (BBC)
Francis on meeting Trump: 'There are always doors that are not shut' (NCR)
552wonderY
I see that all the females in President Trump's party wore full black dresses and lacey black veils when meeting Pope Francis. Is this a standard protocol?
Eh. Someone else already answered the question:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/fashion/people/melania-ivanka-trump-stuck-traditional...
and from the Vatican: http://www.papalaudience.org/dress-code
Eh. Someone else already answered the question:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/fashion/people/melania-ivanka-trump-stuck-traditional...
and from the Vatican: http://www.papalaudience.org/dress-code
56John5918
A papal encounter with the bat-faced duck-lion (Guardian)
A coal-black fear seized the heart of Pope Francis as he prepared to exchange gifts with the Lord of Filth…
Pope Francis is a normally cheery man, but on seeing photos of his haunted visage on Wednesday, it seemed to me that a great sadness, a coal-black fear even, had seized his holy heart...
A coal-black fear seized the heart of Pope Francis as he prepared to exchange gifts with the Lord of Filth…
Pope Francis is a normally cheery man, but on seeing photos of his haunted visage on Wednesday, it seemed to me that a great sadness, a coal-black fear even, had seized his holy heart...
57margd
Thanks! LOL-funny (though unnecessarily rough on the ladies?). Francis sure offered himself up on behalf of poor, displaced, and future generations. He might be one of the few people who can get The Donald's attention. Somewhere I got impression that Trump was a tad unsure walking into that meeting(?)
58margd
>56 John5918: Guardian article is STILL funny, but apparently
It’s not just Donald Trump: The Pope makes it a point to look miserable around visiting dignitaries
Tristin Hopper | May 29, 2017
...The Pope is essentially in the same boat as Queen Elizabeth II. As a non-partisan constitutional monarch, the Queen similarly has to avoid any sign that she’s giving special favour to any particular politician or visiting world leader.
Of course, where Francis employs a blank face that often morphs into a scowl after several seconds of posing, the Queen generally prefers to attempt a professional non-partisan smile.
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/its-not-just-donald-trump-the-pope-makes-it-a-...
It’s not just Donald Trump: The Pope makes it a point to look miserable around visiting dignitaries
Tristin Hopper | May 29, 2017
...The Pope is essentially in the same boat as Queen Elizabeth II. As a non-partisan constitutional monarch, the Queen similarly has to avoid any sign that she’s giving special favour to any particular politician or visiting world leader.
Of course, where Francis employs a blank face that often morphs into a scowl after several seconds of posing, the Queen generally prefers to attempt a professional non-partisan smile.
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/its-not-just-donald-trump-the-pope-makes-it-a-...
59timspalding
>58 margd:
Yeah, but that's just one picture. Other pictures show him smiling.
I've learned to watch the table--the meeting always moves to the same table, with a clock, cross and some sort of plate thingy. Particularly formal meetings and leaders who aren't chummy with the Pope sit directly across. Less formal and more friendly meetings have the pope and the leader on adjacent sides. Trump got the other side of the table. Trudeau got the side of it. Reminds me of the post-marriage scene in Citizen Kane.
Yeah, but that's just one picture. Other pictures show him smiling.
I've learned to watch the table--the meeting always moves to the same table, with a clock, cross and some sort of plate thingy. Particularly formal meetings and leaders who aren't chummy with the Pope sit directly across. Less formal and more friendly meetings have the pope and the leader on adjacent sides. Trump got the other side of the table. Trudeau got the side of it. Reminds me of the post-marriage scene in Citizen Kane.
60margd
Hmm, interesting--trying to interpret diplomacy can feel like examining entrails of a sacrificial animal! :-)
Also, length of meeting is supposed to be important(?) 15 minutes is absolute minimum. Trump got 30 minutes (?). Trudeau got 42--in addition to all the concerns of the day that they might have discussed, Trudeau was asking for Church apology for residential school abuses, so that might account for some of the difference?
Also, length of meeting is supposed to be important(?) 15 minutes is absolute minimum. Trump got 30 minutes (?). Trudeau got 42--in addition to all the concerns of the day that they might have discussed, Trudeau was asking for Church apology for residential school abuses, so that might account for some of the difference?
62margd
#61. So sad, South Sudan (and Yemen, etc.). We see UN WFP food drops on the news--hope other initiatives have some hope of stopping the fighting.
Sounds like Pope may visit Canada next year and will work with Canadian bishops on some sort of gesture with regard to residential schools:
...Trudeau said in their private talks, the pope "reminded me that his entire life has been dedicated to supporting marginalised people in the world, fighting for them, and that he looks forward to working with me and with the Canadian bishops to figure out a path forward together".
Canadian bishops have said the pope might visit next year...
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/05/trudeau-invites-pope-canada-apology-native...
Sounds like Pope may visit Canada next year and will work with Canadian bishops on some sort of gesture with regard to residential schools:
...Trudeau said in their private talks, the pope "reminded me that his entire life has been dedicated to supporting marginalised people in the world, fighting for them, and that he looks forward to working with me and with the Canadian bishops to figure out a path forward together".
Canadian bishops have said the pope might visit next year...
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/05/trudeau-invites-pope-canada-apology-native...
63margd
The Renewed Importance of Pope Francis’s Encyclical on Climate Change
By James Carroll June 2, 2017
...for Francis, resignation before the obliteration of hope is itself deadly. While the Pope, in “Laudato Si’,” argues that we must accept human responsibility for what threatens human survival, he still insists that we “are also capable of rising above ourselves, choosing again what is good, and making a new start.” Faced with a threatened environment, we can do that. Faced with a foolish nihilist for President, we can do that.
http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-renewed-importance-of-pope-franciss-...
By James Carroll June 2, 2017
...for Francis, resignation before the obliteration of hope is itself deadly. While the Pope, in “Laudato Si’,” argues that we must accept human responsibility for what threatens human survival, he still insists that we “are also capable of rising above ourselves, choosing again what is good, and making a new start.” Faced with a threatened environment, we can do that. Faced with a foolish nihilist for President, we can do that.
http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-renewed-importance-of-pope-franciss-...
66John5918
>65 timspalding:
To be honest I'm one of those with mixed feelings about it. Bishop Santo refers to differences of opinion, not only within South Sudan but also, I hear, in Rome.
On the one hand, a pastoral visit is always a good thing for the Catholics and indeed the population in general, and it would show solidarity with the suffering of the people. Bear in mind also that although the pope gets most of the publicity, it was actually to be an ecumenical visit along with the Archbishop of Canterbury, which would be of value not only to South Sudan (which is already a very ecumenical country) but the world at large as an endorsement of ecumenism.
On the other hand, the political, peacebuilding and advocacy elements of the visit cannot be ignored in this fragmented and highly polarised society. Bishop Santo points out the danger of the government faction capitalising on the visit. In addition, there are those who feel that the pope and archbishop together could have a significant impact on the conflict here, but only if they come at the right time. If there were some prospect of an agreement which they could endorse and reinforce, some breakthrough point which they could push over the edge, some single obstacle which they could help the parties overcome... then it would be a major achievement. If, however, they come, say nice things about peace, even say challenging things to the warring parties, boost the morale of the people, and then bugger off back to the Vatican and Lambeth Palace while the civil war here just carries on as normal, it would somehow seem to be a wasted opportunity.
But there is no doubt that people are disappointed, and the pastoral, solidarity and morale-boosting aspects of the visit will be sorely missed.
As one who studies the security situation in the country, I think the security risks are overrated, but then that's what the security industry is paid to do. There is no faction or group in South Sudan which has anything to gain by threatening the pope (quite the opposite, in fact), and I think the combined efforts of the UN, the Vatican's own security, and the local security forces could protect against crazed individuals. Maybe the perceived threat is of external groups (Al Shabab, Boko Haram or whatever) infiltrating in the current chaotic situation, although I don't think there's been much evidence of them being active in South Sudan.
To be honest I'm one of those with mixed feelings about it. Bishop Santo refers to differences of opinion, not only within South Sudan but also, I hear, in Rome.
On the one hand, a pastoral visit is always a good thing for the Catholics and indeed the population in general, and it would show solidarity with the suffering of the people. Bear in mind also that although the pope gets most of the publicity, it was actually to be an ecumenical visit along with the Archbishop of Canterbury, which would be of value not only to South Sudan (which is already a very ecumenical country) but the world at large as an endorsement of ecumenism.
On the other hand, the political, peacebuilding and advocacy elements of the visit cannot be ignored in this fragmented and highly polarised society. Bishop Santo points out the danger of the government faction capitalising on the visit. In addition, there are those who feel that the pope and archbishop together could have a significant impact on the conflict here, but only if they come at the right time. If there were some prospect of an agreement which they could endorse and reinforce, some breakthrough point which they could push over the edge, some single obstacle which they could help the parties overcome... then it would be a major achievement. If, however, they come, say nice things about peace, even say challenging things to the warring parties, boost the morale of the people, and then bugger off back to the Vatican and Lambeth Palace while the civil war here just carries on as normal, it would somehow seem to be a wasted opportunity.
But there is no doubt that people are disappointed, and the pastoral, solidarity and morale-boosting aspects of the visit will be sorely missed.
As one who studies the security situation in the country, I think the security risks are overrated, but then that's what the security industry is paid to do. There is no faction or group in South Sudan which has anything to gain by threatening the pope (quite the opposite, in fact), and I think the combined efforts of the UN, the Vatican's own security, and the local security forces could protect against crazed individuals. Maybe the perceived threat is of external groups (Al Shabab, Boko Haram or whatever) infiltrating in the current chaotic situation, although I don't think there's been much evidence of them being active in South Sudan.
67eschator83
Great discussion, many thanks. Our prayers are with you.
I keep wondering how the US and other advantaged nations can best help the individuals in underdeveloped nations who want to advance themselves and their nations.
Perhaps we should offer selected contracts whereby education is available here for those who promise to return and assist in their countries rather than remaining here. Maybe two years here, return for two years, then back here for two more, etc.
Could we establish an "American zone," under a US governor to help ensure effective disbursement of food and other support, as well as education and vocation in a reasonably secure area?
I keep wondering how the US and other advantaged nations can best help the individuals in underdeveloped nations who want to advance themselves and their nations.
Perhaps we should offer selected contracts whereby education is available here for those who promise to return and assist in their countries rather than remaining here. Maybe two years here, return for two years, then back here for two more, etc.
Could we establish an "American zone," under a US governor to help ensure effective disbursement of food and other support, as well as education and vocation in a reasonably secure area?
68John5918
>67 eschator83:
Thanks, eschator. Not an easy one to answer!
Scholarships with a contract to come back and work for a fixed number of years are not easy to enforce legally, as we've discovered the hard way. I think it would also be difficult in the current political climate in the USA and Europe which seems to be about keeping foreigners out rather than helping them.
Zones such as you suggest are also political dynamite. The idea that some foreign power is violating your sovereignty (even though the local government may itself be unworthy of that sovereignty as it is unable to protect and feed its own people) can often unite opposing groups and the ordinary people against the "common enemy". It can usually only really be established with the agreement of all sides, and particularly the government. Given the reputation of the USA in the world at large, it would be politically unacceptable for it to be an "American zone" - it would have to be UN or AU or some similar body. Multilateral initiatives such as this have their own problems, particularly in agreeing a mandate for the protection force which would have to go with it, and also in terms of the capacity, compatibility and commitment of the troops contributed by different nations. We have thousands of UN troops in South Sudan at the moment, but their record is mixed to say the least. Finally, in a highly fragmented and polarised conflict, it is very difficult for external forces to avoid being perceived as a protagonist themselves, and eventually just becoming another faction in the conflict, leading to more killing and suffering. The US intervention in Somalia in 1993 is a good example, and arguably even the British troops' intervention in the Troubles in Northern Ireland, where initially they went to mitigate the behaviour of the RUC and the B-Specials (and were welcomed as such by the people) but were very soon drawn in and became the enemy of one side and the allies of the other.
Edited to add: There have been one or two successful examples of international trusteeship of a post-conflict nation recently, notably East Timor and arguably Kosovo. But they were post-conflict, whereas in South Sudan the conflict is still in full swing.
Thanks, eschator. Not an easy one to answer!
Scholarships with a contract to come back and work for a fixed number of years are not easy to enforce legally, as we've discovered the hard way. I think it would also be difficult in the current political climate in the USA and Europe which seems to be about keeping foreigners out rather than helping them.
Zones such as you suggest are also political dynamite. The idea that some foreign power is violating your sovereignty (even though the local government may itself be unworthy of that sovereignty as it is unable to protect and feed its own people) can often unite opposing groups and the ordinary people against the "common enemy". It can usually only really be established with the agreement of all sides, and particularly the government. Given the reputation of the USA in the world at large, it would be politically unacceptable for it to be an "American zone" - it would have to be UN or AU or some similar body. Multilateral initiatives such as this have their own problems, particularly in agreeing a mandate for the protection force which would have to go with it, and also in terms of the capacity, compatibility and commitment of the troops contributed by different nations. We have thousands of UN troops in South Sudan at the moment, but their record is mixed to say the least. Finally, in a highly fragmented and polarised conflict, it is very difficult for external forces to avoid being perceived as a protagonist themselves, and eventually just becoming another faction in the conflict, leading to more killing and suffering. The US intervention in Somalia in 1993 is a good example, and arguably even the British troops' intervention in the Troubles in Northern Ireland, where initially they went to mitigate the behaviour of the RUC and the B-Specials (and were welcomed as such by the people) but were very soon drawn in and became the enemy of one side and the allies of the other.
Edited to add: There have been one or two successful examples of international trusteeship of a post-conflict nation recently, notably East Timor and arguably Kosovo. But they were post-conflict, whereas in South Sudan the conflict is still in full swing.
70John5918
‘The Pope for South Sudan’ Initiative (Zenit)
Pope Donates About Half a Million Dollars to Help War-torn South Sudan in Areas of Education, Healthcare and Agricultural Projects
Pope Donates About Half a Million Dollars to Help War-torn South Sudan in Areas of Education, Healthcare and Agricultural Projects
72margd
Also,
Pope Francis Ousts Powerful Conservative Cardinal
JASON HOROWITZ | JULY 1, 2017
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/01/world/europe/vatican-pope-doctrine-mueller.ht...
Pope Francis Ousts Powerful Conservative Cardinal
JASON HOROWITZ | JULY 1, 2017
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/01/world/europe/vatican-pope-doctrine-mueller.ht...
73timspalding
A few notes:
1. I love how Ladaria is being portrayed on the right-wing Cathlosphere as some sort of horrible, heretical liberal now, when he was appointed secretary of the CDF by Benedict XVI. Allen described him as a "conservative" when that happened, back in 2008. Now, suddenly, he's a "universalist." (Ladaria wrote approvingly of Balthasar's formulation that, while we cannot deny eternal damnation, we may pray that all may in the end be saved; this is not, of course, universalism at all.)
2. It can't be denied that Francis is upending "traditional" ways of doing things, by not keeping the prefect of the CDF in office.
We should, however, notice the danger. The case is similar to that of Francis' "stacking" the Cardinalate by passing traditional cardinalate sees (see https://www.ncronline.org/blogs/faith-and-justice/francis-stacks-college-cardina..., as described by Fr. Rees. While I welcome the diversification of the cardinalate, the "tradition" served as a brake on effective Papal power--that is, Popes were somewhat constrained to make the bishops of various top sees into cardinals, whether or not they had appointed them to that see. If this norm is pulled down, the next "conservative" will not feel constrained by it either.
1. I love how Ladaria is being portrayed on the right-wing Cathlosphere as some sort of horrible, heretical liberal now, when he was appointed secretary of the CDF by Benedict XVI. Allen described him as a "conservative" when that happened, back in 2008. Now, suddenly, he's a "universalist." (Ladaria wrote approvingly of Balthasar's formulation that, while we cannot deny eternal damnation, we may pray that all may in the end be saved; this is not, of course, universalism at all.)
2. It can't be denied that Francis is upending "traditional" ways of doing things, by not keeping the prefect of the CDF in office.
We should, however, notice the danger. The case is similar to that of Francis' "stacking" the Cardinalate by passing traditional cardinalate sees (see https://www.ncronline.org/blogs/faith-and-justice/francis-stacks-college-cardina..., as described by Fr. Rees. While I welcome the diversification of the cardinalate, the "tradition" served as a brake on effective Papal power--that is, Popes were somewhat constrained to make the bishops of various top sees into cardinals, whether or not they had appointed them to that see. If this norm is pulled down, the next "conservative" will not feel constrained by it either.
74John5918
Pope Francis: Message to G20 (Vatican Radio)
75margd
>74 John5918: "I ask God’s blessings ... on every effort of the international community to shape a new era of development that is innovative, interconnected, sustainable, environmentally respectful and inclusive of all peoples and all individuals."
Amen.
Amen.
77John5918
For Pope Francis, 'the liturgical reform is irreversible' (CNA)
while the process of implementing the liturgical reform following Vatican II has been a long and at times bumpy task, the reform is “irreversible.”
“After this magisterium, after this long journey we can affirm with certainty and with magisterial authority that the liturgical reform is irreversible”
while the process of implementing the liturgical reform following Vatican II has been a long and at times bumpy task, the reform is “irreversible.”
“After this magisterium, after this long journey we can affirm with certainty and with magisterial authority that the liturgical reform is irreversible”
80John5918
Not Francis and completely off topic, but by pure chance I came across this on YouTube this evening:
Pope Pius XII speaking English to Troops Who Liberated Rome
Pope Pius XII speaking English to Troops Who Liberated Rome
89timspalding
What do you feel about the non-mentioning of the Rohinga?
90John5918
>89 timspalding:
Being careful not to have his message rejected out of hand, but perhaps a bit too careful.
Being careful not to have his message rejected out of hand, but perhaps a bit too careful.
92timspalding
>90 John5918:
Yeah, I don't think it was rejection, I think it was the explicit fear of reprisals against Christians.
Yeah, I don't think it was rejection, I think it was the explicit fear of reprisals against Christians.
96John5918
Pope Francis pleads for migrants at Christmas Eve Mass (BBC)
Pope Francis has urged the world not to ignore the plight of millions of migrants "driven from their land"...
The pontiff compared them to Mary and Joseph, recounting the Biblical story how they had to travel from Nazareth to Bethlehem but found no place to stay.
Many migrants, he said, were being forced to flee from leaders who "see no problem in shedding innocent blood"...
Pope compares plight of migrants to Christmas story (Guardian)
Francis uses Christmas Eve mass to express hope that no one should feel ‘there is no room for them’ and urges faithful to turn fear into charity
Urbi et Orbi: Pope calls for peace for Jerusalem (BBC)
Acknowledging "growing tensions"... he urged a "negotiated solution... that would allow the peaceful co-existence of two states".
Pope Francis has urged the world not to ignore the plight of millions of migrants "driven from their land"...
The pontiff compared them to Mary and Joseph, recounting the Biblical story how they had to travel from Nazareth to Bethlehem but found no place to stay.
Many migrants, he said, were being forced to flee from leaders who "see no problem in shedding innocent blood"...
Pope compares plight of migrants to Christmas story (Guardian)
Francis uses Christmas Eve mass to express hope that no one should feel ‘there is no room for them’ and urges faithful to turn fear into charity
Urbi et Orbi: Pope calls for peace for Jerusalem (BBC)
Acknowledging "growing tensions"... he urged a "negotiated solution... that would allow the peaceful co-existence of two states".
97John5918
Just wondering how to start a new thread for "Francis, part 9 (2018)".
I thought I would find a button at the bottom of this thread for starting a continuation, but I can't see it. Does it only kick in after a certain number of posts, or something?
I thought I would find a button at the bottom of this thread for starting a continuation, but I can't see it. Does it only kick in after a certain number of posts, or something?
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