The best English translation of Iliad

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The best English translation of Iliad

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1distelvogel Primo messaggio
Set 11, 2006, 3:46 am

Hello-hello,

I have been looking for a good translation of Homer's Iliad in verse. I have one by Robert Fitzgerald, but I don't find it completely satisfactory.

I know there are a lot of English translations of Iliad, and I would love to hear your opinion on which one is the best :)

2readingmachine
Set 11, 2006, 6:26 am

Fagles has also done a recent translation that is quite good. Try to find a copy of Alexander Pope's translation for something completely different.

3lilithcat
Modificato: Set 11, 2006, 9:23 am

I like Richmond Lattimore's, though I may be being sentimental because it was the first one I read (barring children's versions).

I have recently read an English translation of An Iliad, by Alessandro Baricco, his stripped-down version, in which he eliminates the gods' actions and turns it from objective to subjective. Very interesting, and, like all his work, eminently readable.

4woctune
Set 11, 2006, 1:27 pm

Ha! The Pope Translation! :)

I like the Fagles.

5wrappedupinbooks
Set 26, 2006, 4:09 pm

If you want a general translation, then the translations published by penguin are good. I myself have a copy which is no longer in print but the current edition - translator E.V.Rieu - and it seems to be just as good. I use this prose translation as a reference for when I am translating but it reads just as well as a "novel". However if you are looking for a literal translation to capture the nuances of the language or translated and rewritten in hexameters, I feel that there are other more suitable translations.

6thecardiffgiant
Ott 13, 2006, 4:53 pm

I'm a Lattimore guy all the way.

7belleyang
Modificato: Mag 14, 2007, 7:28 pm

>6 thecardiffgiant: I'd like to thank thecardiffgiant for recommending Lattimore's translations. My hardback copy with lots of lovely foxing arrived in the mail. I never imagined Homer to be incantatory. I read until three A.M., oohing and and aahhing over the passages. I envy the cardiffgiants knowlege of Homeric studies, but I am revelling in the initiates glorious moments of discovery.

I've listened to the Iliad on tape a few years ago, but came around to reading it after my curiosity for the original was aroused onreading Shakespeare's "Troilus and Cressida."

I am also studying ancient China of the Shang and Western Zhou periods (1250-700 BC); it's rewarding for me to read horizontally and imagine what was happening half a world away.

8desultory
Mag 14, 2007, 5:09 pm

I'm sure it's not a purist's choice (note to all purists - why not?), but I like Christopher Logue's stabs at it.

9wildbill
Mag 20, 2007, 3:32 pm

I prefer Fagles' translation. To me it is the best poetry and is done in a classical style. I don't read Ancient Greek so I have no opinion on the accuracy. I also enjoy the translation by Stanley Lombardo. His language is not so refined and has a greater emotional effect.
I don't like Pope. I have his translation of the Odyssey and have read some of his Iliad. I am turned off by the fact that he uses some Roman names for the gods. It is a Greek poem. I know I am being petty but I don't mind.
I think Lattimore is fine and given a blindfold test I am not sure I could tell Lattimore from Fagles. The impression I have is that Fagles is better poetry. I will always prefer a verse translation to a prose translation. It is a poem.
My favorite way to read either poem is to read the Lombardo translations out loud. In his introductions Lombardo writes about the fact that reading out loud was an important part of his translation process. I love to think of being in a group around a fire at night as the poet tells the tale. I also think it is interesting how ancient writers used lines from the poems in their writings the way that writers in the Christian era used lines of scripture.

10PeterKein
Set 28, 2007, 2:12 pm

well I suppose it depends on what you mean as 'best' -- academics seems always to prefer the Lattimore translation, and of course Willcock's A companion to the Iliad is keyed to it.

Do you mean to preserve some sense of meter? The Iliad was written in dactylic hexameter -- Lombardo doesn't even try to attempt a similarity- also, he freely excises or translates stock phrases depending on the context- which may or may not be ok to you.

I am not a classicist, but I have enjoyed both the Lattimore and the Fagles translations and I think one benefits from having them sit side by side as you read....

11Enodia
Dic 6, 2007, 6:42 pm

i have 12 different Englaish translations of The Iliad, so i guess it depends on whether we are discussing verse or prose.

i feel that the "best" translations MUST be verse, but having said that i should also say that my favorite is prose - Samuel Butler's translation to be exact (although only the versions with the Greek names restored). it is just a more accessible and comfortable read, and i find i can live the story much easier than i can in verse.

as far as verse translations, i have never warmed up to Lattimore, although i am quite aware that his is probably the most popular.
but i prefer Fitzgerald, with Fagles probably second (although a bit overly enhanced, imo).

i do like Pope's version (despite the Roman names, which i generally deplore!), but only in reference. i doubt the day will ever come when i will sit down and read it cover to cover.

12Garp83
Apr 25, 2008, 8:36 pm

My vote for translation is Butler (with appropriate Greek nomenclature for the gods, of course). I would rather read a prose translation than someone trying to force English to approximate ancient Greek dactylic hexameter IMHO

13ginnyday
Apr 13, 2009, 2:22 pm

My son asked me which was the "best" translation. He wanted it to be not in prose (though nothing like rhymed couplets) to give Greek forms of the names, respect the formulas and repetitions, to be fairly consistent in translating individual words, not to miss out or add anything. I have now joined what Logue calls "the hopelessly insane" and am working on my own translation, as specified above.

14snickersnee
Apr 13, 2009, 8:52 pm

Fagles called Pope the "great translator of Homer." No matter how great the translation, there's still something wrong with the battle scenes: bronze swords cleaving helms, large men throwing large rocks. Doubtful at best.

15Feicht
Modificato: Apr 13, 2009, 9:57 pm

Holy thread resurrection, Batman! :-o

Anywho, put me in the Lattimore group. I really couldn't enjoy ancient literature before I read Lattimore/Grene's translations! It's in verse, but they never try to rhyme or anything, which is great.

16Adalberht
Apr 19, 2009, 5:41 am

I think that Richmond Lattimore's translation of the Iliad is the best English translation available so far. He renders the beauty of the original text, minimising the linguistic differences.

17Garp83
Apr 19, 2009, 9:49 am

I am planning to re-read the Iliad one of these days, this time in verse rather than prose (the first time I read it in the masterful Butler prose translation). I will look for a Lattimore version. Perhaps I already own it -- I think I have at least 3 copies kicking about!

18Feicht
Apr 19, 2009, 9:51 am

Do it man... like I say, I really didn't ever take to verse before I read Lattimore.

19Garp83
Modificato: Apr 27, 2009, 7:02 pm

Well -- 4 Iliads, no Lattimores. I'll have to shop for it

Have you read the Fagles one? Everyone raves about it

20Feicht
Apr 27, 2009, 7:06 pm

I have the Fagles Aeneid but that's it, I'm afraid.

21Enodia
Apr 28, 2009, 3:54 am

i have over twenty different translations of the Iliad, although i haven't read them all (obviously!).
i like the Fagles translation for the drama, but i find it somewhat overly 'enhanced'. i have a friend who recites the first two books at festivals and such, and he does the Fagles.
for verse i like the Fitzgerald translation better than the Lattimore, but i understand this is definitely the minority position just about anywhere you ask.
and my favorite prose is the Butler (Greek restored!).

i guess i should add that my LEAST favorite is the Lang, Leaf, Myers (Modern Library)... very awkward and stiff i found, but that might be a Victorian symptom too.

22ginnyday
Apr 28, 2009, 7:46 am

I agree with you about Fagles. I think you have phrased it exactly when you say "somewhat overly enhanced". I find Lattimore is very accurate, but sometimes awkward and clumsy. I also agree with you about Fitzgerald; it is brilliant, but a bit too far from the Greek for me.

Have you any thoughts on Lombardo?

I know it's not a translation, but I have also enjoyed Christopher Logue's War Music.

23Enodia
Apr 28, 2009, 2:24 pm

i'm not crazy about the Lombardo version. although it seems very popular, i find it a bit too vernacular for my tastes.
i must admit though that i haven't read it cover to cover. my test for an Iliad is to read the first, 14th and 18th books to see if it moves me. if so i will usually spend a few months and read the entire translation (my wife and i read outloud to each other, so it takes some time). if not it gets relegated to "the collection". Lombardo didn't make the cut.

24Garp83
Apr 28, 2009, 6:11 pm

Well, I read the Butler prose translation & loved it!!!! I also own The Iliad translated by: Lang, Leaf & Myers (whatever that means!). And I also own The Iliad in a Loeb translated by Murray.

Has anyone ever read either of these & does anyone have an opinion on either. Neither appears to be verse.

Enodia -- why Fitzgerald? What makes it different?

25Enodia
Apr 29, 2009, 1:42 am

Garp;

the Andrew Lang, Walter Leaf and Ernest Myers is translation is from the Victorian era. this was the first one i ever tried to read all the way through (when i was a kid), and now i understand why i never finished it back then.

the A.T Murray is from the 20's, and while it too seems a bit formal for me, it is more exciting than the Lang.

as for the Fitzgerald, i dunno, personal taste i guess. i don't dislike the Lattimore, i just think the Fitzgerald has a certain je ne sais... something.

another one that i rather like is the Alston Hurd Chase and William Perry (1950).

here, have a browse...
http://www.librarything.com/catalog/Enodia&tag=Iliad

26Garp83
Apr 29, 2009, 7:58 pm

Wow Enodia -- you are an Iliad afficionado! I am not worthy ...

I will read either Lattimore of Fitzgerald. There is a companion book for Lattimore A Companion to the Iliad which makes me lean more towards the Lattimore, but we'll see. I want to read the first three pages of both, so we'll see if I can find both in any bookstore so I can do that.

27Feicht
Apr 29, 2009, 8:31 pm

Come on Garp, don't cheat; read the Pharr Aeneid! ;-D

28Garp83
Apr 29, 2009, 9:03 pm

Tried to read the aeneid twice, first Fitzgerald, then Fagles. Got halfway twice and after Dido set herself on fire I thought about setting myself on fire. No interest. Dull. Fifty levels below Homer IMHO

29Feicht
Apr 29, 2009, 9:28 pm

Only cuz you didn't read the Latin version, duh :-P

30Garp83
Apr 29, 2009, 10:28 pm

I have to imagine its worse in Latin, but I can't say ...

31Enodia
Apr 29, 2009, 10:49 pm

ahhh, The Aeneid.
i've tried, i really have, but i keep stalling out. it just doesn't hold my interest. not that i don't like it, but once i put it down i find no impetus to pick it up again. but it does complete the cycle so i will finish it someday... oh yes, i will!

when the wife and i read the Butler Iliad together a couple of years ago, we read the majority of it atop various active volcanoes. we would take it with us while camping or on day trips and read a chapter or two each time. man, there is a REALLY special feeling you get when you are reading about Zeus ruling from Mt. Olympus or sitting upon Mt. Ida and you look up and there is the snow covered peak of Mt. St. Helens or Mt. Ranier towering over you... talk about mood enhancing!

32thecardiffgiant
Giu 3, 2009, 8:19 pm

Just thought I'd give an update now that I'm finishing my third year teaching full-time.

For my students I've found that there's nothing better than Stanley Lombardo's versions. My fiancée has both of his Homer editions, and I've got his Aeneid.

To make things more digestible for my AP Latin students I have them read Lombardo's The Essential Homer (which cuts 300 line sections such as "Hector rallies the Trojans") as well as the Aeneid in toto.

He's vivid, lively, memorable, and captures the spirit.

33Garp83
Giu 4, 2009, 8:56 pm

Found The Iliad in Lattimore in a fancy hardcover binding almost new condition at a used bookstore today for $6 on sale for 40% off!! YAH!!! I am going to order the companion by Campbell so when I re-read it I get the full benefit. I'll keep you all posted

34Feicht
Giu 4, 2009, 9:08 pm

Wow, what a find!

35Garp83
Giu 5, 2009, 8:35 pm

Yeah huh? I picked up the Campbell companion today at B&N with a 15% off coupon for $9. So I get to re-read the Iliad in verse this time with a companion volume. What fun! Now I just have to find the time

36presquepotato
Giu 11, 2009, 7:17 pm

I understand why some don't find Lombardo to their taste, but it may help many get through the Iliad. That is, part of the definition of the practical "best" is the one you can get through, not necessarily the one that is technically the best.

37walf6
Giu 12, 2009, 1:30 pm

I've been studying "Persian Fire," and I'd be interested to learn more about the Myceneans (sp?) Homer wrote about. Are they presumed to be among the first inhabitants of Greece? Are there books specifically about that culture which would be college level?

38Garp83
Giu 18, 2009, 8:43 am

The first civilization in Greece was the Bronze Age Minoan, centered on Crete & the islands, which was what the Greeks called a thallasocracy or empire based on the sea. Thera was part of that civilization. The Myceneans were Indo-European people who moved into Greece proper and settled in the Peloponnese. They were Ionian Greeks. Eventually, they supplanted the Minoans and expanded trade and colonies to Asia Minor, where Troy was located. When the Bronze Age collapsed circa 1200 BCE, a dark age followed. Cousins of the Myceneans seem to have later settled in Greece, the so-called Dorians, although they may have been there all along as some kind of peasant class. I really don't know of a good single book like Persian Fire that covers the Myceneans well.

39Feicht
Giu 18, 2009, 6:45 pm

That's because it's hard to construct a brilliant narrative when there was no written history to speak of! :-)

That doesn't mean that there isn't lots of fascinating (if disparate) info on the Mycenaeans, it's just that a lot of it is based on external sources, tradition, or archaeology.

40Garp83
Giu 18, 2009, 7:35 pm

Oh, I don't know ... I think any period can be brought to life, even with a dearth of solid info. It's just that much of historical writing tends to be dry and uninspiring. Ever read Michael Grant? He makes you want to pour gasoline over yourself and hunt up a lighter ...

41Feicht
Giu 18, 2009, 8:38 pm

Haha fair enough; though I haven't read it yet, I know Cunliffe basically pieced together Pytheas' voyage though there's not much surviving evidence for it.

42Garp83
Giu 19, 2009, 11:50 pm

Well I guess we'll see. Europe Between the Oceans is very good so far, though it's no Persian Fire. My biggest gripe is that it is full of maps but many place names in the text do not apear in the maps

43anthonywillard
Modificato: Giu 16, 2010, 8:33 pm

To quote Feicht 23: "Holy thread resurrection, Batman! :-o" LOL!

Being new here I am compelled to put in my 2 cents. This thread is so old that probably no one will read it, but so it goes.

I am surprised that no one mentioned the Penguin Classics "Homer in English" volume (ed. George Steiner, 1996) which gives generous samples of just about every translation and adaptation up to when it was published (it has Logan but misses Lombardo.) Very enjoyable book, but if you read it straight through you get a surfeit of certain key passages that keep turning up (though that is useful for comparing.) And you don't have to read it straight through.

Since I have been on LT I have been surprised by the continuing popularity of the Butler translation. I own it but have only read parts and find it OK. I also find it interesting that Fagles, who was several lengths ahead of the pack a decade or so ago, seems to have faded back, leaving Lattimore once again in the lead. Fagles is accurate and clear and reasonably nimble, but the poetics don't sound epic to me. I haven't read Lombardo. Logue is an adaptation, not a translation. To me, more like tragic poetry (cruel, lyrical, often unbearable.)

I have never met anyone who has read the Loeb translation through. There must be some. I like the granddaddy of them all, Chapman. I'm in good company. John Keats after all, felt like he was discovering a new world when "first looking into Chapman's Homer."

I love Pope. But I have to admit it's more for the Pope than the Homer. Also it's the first Iliad and Odyssey I read as a kid, long before I learned (?) Greek. I just read it as English narrative and thought the Flaxman illustrations were pretty odd. People who are poets in their own right before attempting Homer seem to have more luck at it. That includes Fitzgerald and Lattimore as well as Pope. In my day the rule of thumb was Lattimore for the Iliad, Fitzgerald for the Odyssey. Maybe because in my day Lattimore hadn't published his Odyssey and Fitzgerald hadn't published his Iliad. I'm like Enodia, a Fitzgerald fan all the way. It's because his iambic metric works so well for me. Not to mention his perfectly targeted vocabulary and limpid rhetoric. I think my judgment is with the majority in regard to his Odyssey, but not his Iliad: it has not won favor except with a few of us.

Lattimore has an impressive noble, eloquent style, better in the Iliad than the Odyssey, and does an excellent job of suggesting the Greek dactylic hexameter, but to me hexameter is heavy and turgid in English, even done by expert metricists like Longfellow (Evangeline). In Greek it is marvelously swift and propulsive. Lattimore is the near-universal school-Homer of our time, and for many people, Homer speaks in Lattimore's voice and if it isn't Lattimore it doesn't sound right.

Virgil is one of the most learned poets in history, a self-conscious competitor of Callimachus. He's as full of allusions and references and one-upsmanship as Joyce or especially Wallace Stevens or Marianne Moore. Try translating Stevens into Indonesian or Hebrew and see how compelling it comes out. Not very. Same with Virgil in English. One can learn to love it in Latin, but as the man complained about the Catskill comedian: "Too much shtick and not enough shtory."

44Enodia
Giu 17, 2010, 3:13 am

>43 anthonywillard:
"I love Pope. But I have to admit it's more for the Pope than the Homer."

well said Anthony, and it seems we agree there too.
i can only hope that Virgil is better in Latin. i enjoyed The Aeneid, but can't even put it in the same ballpark with Homer. i also have a hard time getting past the idea that Virgil was an obsequious little toady tucked securely in Augustus' back pocket (or was it vica versa?). but then i've always been something of a shit disturber myself, so perhaps that is why i prefer Ovid?

45anthonywillard
Modificato: Giu 17, 2010, 4:32 am

The Aeneid doesn't belong in the same ballpark with Homer, which Virgil I think would be the first to acknowledge. He is very intellectual, and a consummate art for art's sake type. He had read all of literature. Literally, it was doable then, but not easy, and he had read it all, Greek and Latin. He strikes me not as a toady but reserved and aloof, professorial, but still without doubt a privileged character as a court poet. Sort of how I imagine Racine. Or Spenser. Incomparably better in Latin, but still not easy. The Eclogues are the easiest but sort of boring unless you like pastoral, which I don't. They are perfect and very much like Spenser because Spenser knew them so well. The fourth Georgic is good. The one about the bees. For me the most accessible of Vergil's poems. He did not have the narrative and dramatic ability for epic. The Aeneid's story is rambling and pointless, the main character is creepy, the love interest is over almost before it begins, and Dido is the most noncredible female in all of literature. Well, one of the most.

But he wasn't competing with Homer. He was competing with the Alexandrians, Callimachus and Appolonius. Aratus. And trying to show that Latin could produce poetry as skilled and as learned as theirs. As far as technique goes, I think he succeeded. But you have to adopt a kind of eighteenth-century sensibility. And you have to take it a little at a time and really delve into the verse and the poetics. Ovid is much easier and frankly more enjoyable. Ovid just spouted verse naturally without thinking. It is sort of maudlin sometimes, but always a good story.

I really prefer the Greeks for poetry, the Latins for prose. Though there are some very good poems (or parts of poems, as in Lucretius.) Catullus. Some of Martial. Ausonius. Plautus and Terence are something else altogether and just as untranslatable.

So Ovid's a good bet. And Propertius. If you're a shit-kicker as you say, there's Petronius, too, though he's mostly prose (there is some beautiful sensuous poetry attributed to him.) And Tertullian, one of the kickingest, and a great prose stylist. Not to forget Juvenal who's too grim for me. I get started and just ramble on. And on. I love this stuff.

BTW that Ephesian bee coin you posted the other day was a remarkably beautiful object. It got me surfing ancient coin sites for hours. I need to find a good introductory book.

46Enodia
Giu 17, 2010, 4:22 pm

"BTW that Ephesian bee coin you posted the other day was a remarkably beautiful object. It got me surfing ancient coin sites for hours. I need to find a good introductory book."

now that is a topic on which I can ramble on and on for hours...
a good basic introductory is 'Handbook of Ancient Greek and Roman Coins: An Official Whitman Guidebook' by Klawans.
very elementary, but affordable and a good overview. Wayne Sayles' series is terrific if you want to spend a bit more, but rather than ramble off-topic here i'd recommend visiting Forvm Ancient Coins at http://www.forumancientcoins.com/
there really is no better place for classical numismatics on the web!

47graham.rodda
Modificato: Mag 14, 2012, 9:29 pm

Hey thanks everyone for this discussion.

I am about to begin reading Homer and have decided to go with Lattimore for both the Illiad and Odessey, both of which are on the Kindle store (I got the Kindle edition).

I did read the Kindle edition introduction to the Penguin Illiad (Fagles) which was really interesting background reading and can be accessed as part of the free Kindle sample.

Kindle also has the Kindle editions of the translations by Butler ($1), Fitzgerald ($10), Cowper free) and Pope (free). Lattimore is about $10 as is Fagles.

48graham.rodda
Mag 14, 2012, 9:30 pm

Thanks Anthony!

49anthonywillard
Set 9, 2012, 8:41 am

Graham: How are you doing with Lattimore?

50Nicole_VanK
Modificato: Set 9, 2012, 9:29 am

> OP: I guess it's something of a trade off. I've inherited my fathers verse translation by Johann Heinrich Voss (18th century, into German). It's absolutely a work of art in itself. But because he was making a translation in metric verse, he had to take some liberties.

My advise (if you're uncomfortable with reading the original): use a verse translation (for beauty) and a prose translation (for more exact meaning) side by side.

51Garp83
Set 9, 2012, 10:52 am

I'm half way thru the new Mitchell version. It's different but well worth the read.

52Feicht
Set 9, 2012, 9:50 pm

Hey another resurrection of this thread! ;-D

Some of the students in my department evidently put a cool-kids group together and are translating the Iliad for fun. I really wish I could partake, but translating Greek still takes me so damned long that I really do not have the extra time/energy to translate an additional 50 lines of something per week just for fun. My brain almost melted this afternoon while translating just the first 120 lines of Euripides' "Hippolytus". I'm holding out hope that I can get to a point in the not-too-distant future where I can just look at a book and read it without having to look a bunch of stuff up, because otherwise I'm gonna have to try to transfer to the Anthro department or something :-/

53anthonywillard
Set 10, 2012, 12:45 pm

120 lines of Euripides actually ain't too shabby for an afternoon. Homer's a lot easier.

54richardbsmith
Set 10, 2012, 4:34 pm

In Learning Ancient Greek group a couple of us are preparing to read the Iliad. I hope you will join in or at least monitor to keep us from going to far astray.

55anthonywillard
Set 10, 2012, 5:43 pm

@54 Great plan. You say you are preparing. What are you doing to prepare?

56richardbsmith
Modificato: Set 10, 2012, 6:04 pm

I don't want to hijack this thread, but the interested parties are refreshing our Homeric Greek. I am using Pharr's text. We had planned to start in September, but that moved back to October. We have thought of using a Steadman's copy of Iliad to read.

This is not so much a translation exercise, but for me at least an attempt to read it in Greek, as Greek. And outloud, enjoying each dactyl.

http://www.librarything.com/topic/139311

We start talking about our preparation and plans for reading the Iliad more in the latter part of this topic.

57Feicht
Set 10, 2012, 9:09 pm

>53 anthonywillard:: Yeah that's what I kept telling myself, but there are some guys in the department who can essentially just read it like it's English.

On the plus side, we are basically forced into taking once-per-week, no-prep sight reading classes until we pass our PhD Greek and Latin exams... so one would assume this would help. I've only had the Latin one so far, but it was great. It is basically all 4 new grad students hanging out with Oliver Nicholson for an hour. I tend to have no idea how well-known certain scholars are, but this is his U of M profile: http://www.cmedst.umn.edu/people/profile.php?UID=opn

He is essentially like someone crossed the DNA of Monty Python's Michael Palin and Marcus Brody from Indiana Jones, and created the most affable, pleasant, and encouraging uni prof of all time.

58anthonywillard
Set 11, 2012, 12:07 am

57 It's been so long since I've had any actual contact with scholars that I don't know the current ones, but I've always thought medievalists are the best teachers. And I see your Dr. Nicholson is a medievalist so there you are.

59ginnyday
Set 11, 2012, 6:35 am

I find the digital Chicago Homer incredibly useful. I'm sure you all know about it, but I didn't notice a mention. You can have a verse of Homer, with Lattimore's translation underneath it; or you can choose just to see the Greek; you can see all the repetition of words, verses and phrases, you can click straight to dictionary and bibliographic references...

60richardbsmith
Set 11, 2012, 6:52 am

I had not heard of Chicago Homer. Thanks.

http://digital.library.northwestern.edu/homer/

61Feicht
Set 11, 2012, 8:37 am

>58 anthonywillard:: Makes sense to me! He actually broke into song on three separate occasions. I can't wait to take a regular classroom-class with the guy.

62Nicole_VanK
Set 11, 2012, 8:49 am

He broke into song? Where's "Fulliautomatix" when you need him?

63jsimonharris
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64jsimonharris
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