GROUP READ - WOLF HALL June 2012

Since there doesn't seem to be a thread setup for the Group Read of Wolf Hall that starts tomorrow, I thought I'd get it set.

Let us know if you are joining in.

There is also a tutored read for this book in the 75 Challenge so if you want some background information, go here - http://www.librarything.com/topic/137481

Here's a link for the family tree for the British royals - http://www.britroyals.com/royaltree.htm

I plan to lurk on Ilana's tutored read with Suzanne, but if I have comments to make, I will make them here. Thanks for setting up this thread for the Group Read!

I read this a few years ago, but will be following the discussion. What a fantastic book!

I plan to join, and have already read the first chapter. Looks good!

Oh, I so want to do this. Count me in.

Here I go overbooking myself! I wasn't planning on reading Wolf Hall this month, but a group read opportunity is pretty hard to resist. Count me in.

>6 DeltaQueen50: Oh, I'm worse, I've joined both the Wolf Hall group read in 12in12 AND the Bring up the Bodies group read with the 75ers. :) So I'd better get cracking on Wolf Hall because they're pretty big books!

LOL Rachel, you are going to have a busy reading month! (And be very well versed in the Tudors)

I shall be lurking on the tutored thread but also looking in here. I've started to read on my kindle (I'm up to p183) and I took advantage of the Audible offer and bought the audio version too. So far I've not really had any difficulties with knowing which 'he' is meant but the audio version should clear that up for me if I'm ever unsure.

I wasn't planning to read it this month either, but I may end up joining in a bit later in the month. I guess I'll see if it is available at the library when I return the books I currently have checked out.

I am on wait lists at the library for the real book, the audio book for my MP3 and the talking book on CD. Hopefully one of them will arrive soon.

I'll be reading along as well. I read this book in 2010, but I had a newborn and with the lack of sleep, I'm not sure how much I really remember except that I loved it. I'd like to read it again before reading Bring up the Bodies, so I'm looking forward to this group read!

I hope it is okay for a non-member to watch the discussion. I'll try not to interject. I will not be rereading the book, but I am hopeful of being better prepared for the sequel.

Robert

Robert, the tutored read is to be respected and only minimally posted to, but this thread is an open forum, I do believe.

Robert,
If you're a member of LT, you're a member here. Many of us in the 12 n 12 Challenge use it as a definition for our 75 book Challenge.

Thank you both. I will be watching.

Robert

Count me in... it's one I have been meaning to get too.

I will be joining in for the group read but will likely just lurk on the tutored thread. This is the first time I've participated in a group read. Is there anything special I should know about how it works?

Nope. Just participate and comment as you want.

Usually the only no-no is a spoiler that is not identified before you write it.

Most people will mark it *****SPOILER ALERT*****

Cool! I can do that! :)

I'm going to participate here, and maybe lurk on the tutorial thread.

What is a tutorial thread? I am new here. Thanks.

23>> Here's a thread which completely explains all you need to know about a tutored read. I wouldn't be able to do it justice.
http://www.librarything.com/topic/129209

Count me in for this group read! I will be starting soon.

Don't forget - anyone who participates in the TIOLI challenges - Wolf Hall is in Challenge #17.

24> Thank you for the link

Wolf Hall is at the library for me on CD and the book is in transit. Start soon!

wow I randomly picked Wolf Hall up at the library this week after seeing so many great comments on it, but I guess I had great timing as I didn't realize there was going to be a group read and a tutored thread at the same time! I should be able to start reading it next week so I'll keep an eye out on these two threads

29 How on earth were you able to randomly pick up Wolf Hall at your library. I'm 178 on the wait list at mine. Fortunately someone loaned me a copy. I'm up to page 70 or so know, and that comment about the "he"s 9 totally makes sense. Using "he" to refer to Thomas Cromwell so often almost makes him an invisible character for me, even though a lot of the time we're in his head.

Thanks for the link to the tutored read. I'll check it out once I'm further into the book.

>30 cammykitty: I wondered the same thing about "randomly" picking Wolf Hall up. :)

I'm listening to the audiobook (it was a lot easier to get hold of than the physical copy), but I really, really wish I had a physical copy. This is NOT a book that's easy to follow on audio because of the questionable use of "he" and the jumps in time. But I think I'm getting the hang of it. I'm about half-way through now.

31>> Thanks for the warning. I have the audio version and I'm getting ready to start it. 18 discs - this should be good!

It's taken a bit, but now I am sitting around the 200 page mark and finally feeling involved with the story. Thank heavens for the Tutored Thread, it's helping me sort out who's who and what's what!

31 - It isn't easy to follow in the print version either, for the same reason. I'm letting it wash over me, and then I'm going to run over to the tutored read. I'm enjoying it, but do occasionally feel disoriented Point-of-View wise. She's using an odd close 3rd person limited POV that occasionally shifts to different characters - or goes omniscient perhaps? Beginning writers would've been rapped on the knuckles for doing that!

But Mantel makes it work, doesn't she?

When the third person has no antecedent it is Cromwell; otherwise it is the person specified. I think the genius of this is that it has the interiority of the first person but the putative objectivity of the third person.

Robert

Well put, Robert!

I love her usage of "he". It really works for me.

@35 It has a certain effect. Just because a beginning writer would be slapped for it, doesn't mean it can't work. An advanced writer decides what "rules" of writing make sense, and will find a lot of the rules are as clunky as training wheels. I'm thinking she makes it work, but I need to be more than 70 pages in to decide. I think the effect she is going for is just what Mr. Durick said @ 36. We have a very "interior" feeling, almost as though we are inside Thomas and can't *see* his face without a mirror. This technique avoids the self-centeredness of 1st person, and the other problem of 1st person - the occasion for the person to decide to relate the story.

I often find that I need to "acclimatize" to authors who have distinctive writing styles. For the first few pages, I'm paying a lot of attention to how things are said, and sometimes the writing may not seem that clear at first. Once I'm into the book, I start enjoying the writing style.

I am liking her writing style so far, and I see what Katie is saying about getting the intimacy of the first person without the problems that go with it, but I have to admit, I wish she used her pronouns more properly. It is VERY confusing on audiobook because I can't scan back up and see who the last person referenced was.

I think Wolf Hall would be extremely confusing as an audio book. I do have a hard time with listening comprehension, though. I need to see the words.

I have trouble with listening comprehension too. I started listening to audiobooks in order to improve comprehension because I thought it might help me during meetings and lectures. :) It actually did help a little bit, but I still have trouble.

41 Have you tried following along with the print copy while you are listening to the audio? I know finding print copies of Wolf Hall isn't an easy thing. We recommend kids who are learning to read listen and follow along, but they don't often actually do it. ;) If it's good for the kids, it can't hurt the adults, right? I've got better reading comprehension than listening comprehension too. I think that's common for us bookworms. We're so practiced at reading that we're really good at it. Listening, not so much.

I'm reading both, but separately. I listen to audio as my bedtime reading and then read the print the next day. Sometimes I read on in print because I can't bear to stop!

The reader of my audio version is Simon Slater and he's doing it well. I decided to try the audio version as well because I thought the different voices would make it more obvious who the 'he' in question was, although I haven't, so far, had any real difficulties with the print version.

>42 cammykitty: I've never tried reading along at the same time as listening...I generally listen while I'm exercising or on my way (walking/driving) somewhere. Though now that I think about it, I bet that would be the perfect way to increase listening comprehension, because my mind would be totally focused on the book.

>43 CDVicarage: Mine is the Simon Slater version too. He IS an excellent reader (although his voice breaks on high notes while singing--but he actually sings the songs that are there, I'll give him that). Perhaps if he weren't doing the voices I'd have given up on Wolf Hall by now, instead of having gotten into the groove.

I've finished Wolf Hall and after a shaky start I ended up loving it. A fresh look at the Tudors, told in a unique way. I will definitely be looking for the 2nd book in the trilogy soon.

I finished yesterday too. I'll start the next one in a week or so. :)

I'm still plodding through.

I've finished reading Wolf Hall and have a question. If you don't know the history or how the books ends, this will contain ***SPOILERS***

What do you all think about the choice of title? I guess the whole book is setting up future events with Jane Seymour hovering in the shadows, but it struck me that it really creates a sense of impending doom for the main characters. Do you think it was the intention to not let you forget what's going to happen down the road? The book also ends with Cromwell intending to visit Wolf Hall, I think in his mind to see Jane Seymour as his own love interest. But since it's a progress with the King (right?) he's actually going to be introducing the two as his marriage with Anne falls apart.

I'm a little over 1/2 way so I haven't read your comment, Japaul. I read Mantel's historical comment in the back SPOILER??? and have this question as I run through it. How on earth did Thomas Cromwell survive??? Working for the Borgias should have been enough to shorten his life expectancy significantly. But to survive aligning oneself with Wolsey, with Henry VIII, with Anne Boleyn and with Bloody Mary???? How did he do it? Was he a mirror? Did he just ask the right questions to help his "leader" come to a certain conclusion. It seems he played neutral a lot, yet still had power??? Was he pragmatic? Convictionless? Slippery? Did he play both sides of the field enough that he had favors to call in from all possible sides?

I think that is part of the draw of Wolf Hall, you are constantly wondering how and why Cromwell keeps rising while all around him are falling. In my review I likened him to a synchronised swimmer - appearing calm and in control on the surface, while underneath paddling desparately. I think he must have had his slimy side and was able to step away in time to avoid downfall. He certainly had the uncanny knack of knowing what horse to back at the right time!

As to the title of Wolf Hall, I am left in the dark as to the author's intentions. At first I thought perhaps she was referring to the future and the Seymours, but perhaps she was also pointing out that trying to get ahead at court was like rising to the top of a wolf pack - having to fight every step of the way, and also never forgetting who has the ultimate power and must alway have first choice, the leader of the pack, in this case, King Henry VIII.

I am equally in the dark about the title. But the title of the second book, Bring up the Bodies, makes perfect sense! :)

@50 Good analogy Delta!

Judy, as I start to read Wolf Hall this evening, I will bear in mind your comments in #50.
Helpful without spoiling.....
:-)

@50 SPOILERS - I think you are right that it is referring to Jane Seymour's rise and implying that Cromwell's handiwork is in that. But I'm also remembering that Wolf Hall is where the little bit of incest happened. & his odd map reading, journey planning in the end is an analogy to his political manipulations. Almost implying that Cromwell thoroughly intended to revamp the religion of England and start the Church of England.

Having carefully avoided the spoilers, I can say I've read Part One of Wolf Hall. After having had it on my shelves for about 18 months, I picked it up with some trepidation as my mother and sister both said it was very difficult to follow and I saw the comments up above about the use of pronouns. So far I haven't had any difficulty, though it reads more like a series of snapshots or 'scenes from the life of' rather than a narrative.

I finished it, and I have to say that I wasn't impressed. Maybe it was the writing or maybe I've just never been that fond of Cromwell, but as for the other two books, I'm not sure I'll continue.

56 I'm not sure Cromwell is the sort of guy that invites fondness.

I've finished part 2. I'm starting to see where the difficulties come. The long flashback chapter on the Occult History of England does need careful reading to anchor oneself in time and space and be sure who the pronoun referents are.

@58 Yes - after awhile, Wolf Hall feels like you are dislocated in time.

Finished part 3. I keep having to refer to the list of characters at the front because I'm not really getting a feel for who's who apart from the main historical characters.

@60 We all did that.

Except those of us who listened to the audiobook and had to suffer through the confusion....

62 Oooo ouch. I hadn't thought about the fact that in an audiobook, it's hard to look back.

Finished part 4. Enjoying it, but still have a sense that there is more going on than I'm really picking up.

Finished part 5. I think one problem is that people who are new to the reader are not necessarily new to Cromwell, and this style which is in the 3rd person but tied so closely to his thoughts leaves one floundering as to who they are. Either that or I'm just getting forgetful and not really taking things in.

>65 Robertgreaves: Yes, I think that's definitely a problem with the writing style of Wolf Hall, it's another thing that you simply have to either dislike or accept. :) I think this is part of the reason I liked Bring up the Bodies more than Wolf Hall is because I was already familiar with the important characters and had a better idea of what was going on between them.

I dislike being left floundering like that. But I am finding the book very interesting -- a very different view of the Tudors and especially Thomas More.

I found Thomas More fascinating - both sympathetic and despicable. What a bloody time period. It seems they were all murderers.

I finally finished Wolf Hall yesterday. It took me 30 days just to get through it. it was a bit of a slog for me. While I love how Mantel has created Cromwell's personality and her presentation of the time period (for visualization purposes), I really did not get into the writing style or the overall confusion that was the Tudors during the time period. It is a part of history that I took no interest in during my school days and sadly, I am still uninterested.

I will say this though.... I would not have wanted to live in that time period! YIKES!

Lori - When I was in seminary, I took a class called Protestant Reformation. It's a good thing that I didn't mind that period. One of the books we had to read was Two Early Tudor Lives. It was actually two separate biographies -- one was of Cardinal Wolsey and the other of Sir Thomas More. Of course, Cromwell figures prominently into the narratives. As much reading in that period lately (thanks to the Matthew Shardlake series) and in anticipation of this one, I've been debating pulling out that book to reread.

Mantel did create interesting portraits of Wolsey and More. More really comes across as quite the frightening extremist and I had to remind myself that history is littered with these types of individuals. I am just too laid back for the 'my way or the highway' approach to sticking ones nose in and governing other peoples thoughts and beliefs.

I just finished Wolf Hall yesterday. I posted a bit on my thread as to my immediate thoughts on the book, but I'm still digesting it and deciding what I think. One thing for sure -- I agree, I definitely would NOT want to have lived then.

Uh oh. People are finishing.... I'd better pick it back up!

Me too!

If I had lived back then, I would've spent all my efforts on being overlooked! Not safe to be too noticeable!

Definitely not safe to make any opinions/view points known, that is for sure!

I found the physicality of this book delightful. You could touch fabrics and wood, smell the cooking, feel the air. Am not sure how she did it.

> Hi Diane - good observation about how Mantel was able to communicate the physical feel of the time period!

... and welcome to Librarything!