Great Expectations: Spoiler Thread

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Great Expectations: Spoiler Thread

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1Bcteagirl
Modificato: Feb 8, 2012, 7:13 pm

By demand, a spoiler thread for Great Expectations :P

I found is a discussion question that interested me if they are of interest to others :P

1) Why do you think it is one of Magwitch's principal conditions that Pip (his nickname) "always bear the name of Pip" in order to receive his financial support?

This is one question I keep coming to and keep drawing a blank on.

Also, for those reading through the Fforde Thursday Next series, a discussion of Miss Havishsham's role there could be fun :P

I would love to hear about discussion questions from others as well!

2The_Hibernator
Feb 9, 2012, 7:35 am

Hi Janice, thanks for starting the thread.

Q1) I supposed that Magwitch's reason for wanting Pip to always keep that name is because it was the name Pip gave Magwitch when they met. Magwitch was clearly obsessing over Pip for many years before he came upon enough money to support him. By this time, the name Pip would have been very precious to Magwitch because (I imagine) that's what happens when you obess about someone for a long time--you don't want them to change something that you feel is part of their nature. He wanted Pip always to be the Pip in his brain, but be a gentleman as well.

I am reading the Thursday Next series, but I'm only on The Eyre Affair right now. With luck, I'd be able to get to Lost in a Good Book in a little over a week. So hopefully we'll still have time to discuss it then. There might be more of us who are reading the Thursday Next series who haven't finished Great Expectations, I'm guessing.

The discussion question I was going to ask is this:

2) I read in the Wikipedia article about Great Expectations that in the original ending to the story, Pip meets Estella on the streets. She has remarried after the death of her abusive husband. She says that suffering has made her realize what her heart used to be. Pip remains unmarried. Apparently, some people didn't like this ending (too sad), so Dickens changed it to the one we have now. And 20th century critics say that the original ending fit better with the theme of the book.

Does anyone have an opinion about which ending would be better and why?

3DeltaQueen50
Feb 9, 2012, 4:31 pm

I like Rachel's answer to Question 1.

Question 2: Even though I didn't particularly empathize with Pip, I think Dicken's having to change the ending showed that the public of the day certainly did. The original ending leaving Pip alone and unmarried certainly sounds much more like a Victorian ending, but I guess they felt that Pip had truly repented and deserved a happy ending. Of course, I'm not all that sure that being married to Estrella ensured a happy ending, there is always the possibility that she would revert to how she was brought up.

4Jacksonian
Feb 9, 2012, 4:48 pm

I always took Magwitch's condition on Pip's name to serve as a constant reminder as to where he came from. In other words, not to get too full of himself and changed by his expectations. But perhaps I was reading to much into it.

As to the second question, I probably would have liked the original ending better as I felt that neither Pip nor Estella really deserved a happy ending (although I agree that perhaps a marriage between the two might not have been a "happy ending" after all).

I have a question of my own: 3) Did anyone else find Wemmick to be one of the only truly sympathetic and likeable characters? I absolutely loved him and his relationship with the Aged P.

5Bcteagirl
Modificato: Feb 9, 2012, 6:56 pm

Oh I loved Wemmwick, he is the original urban homesteader/ survivalist lol.. he has his own 'castle' with and island and his one chicken. A foreshadowing of urban homesteaders to come :P

I have the Gutenberg version of Great Expectations.. they meet at the estate again after it had been torn down, but the way I read it they did not get married.. did I read it wrong or is there a third ending? I may have to go back and read that now.

6The_Hibernator
Feb 9, 2012, 8:38 pm

I think the new ending supposedly implies that they get married. She is, at the very least, unmarried in the version you read--which is the same as the one I read. At least there is possibility for them to get married!

I kind of like the original ending, as well. I feel that Dickens laid out the plot in such a way that neither Pip nor Estella ought to have lived happily ever after. I think they only deserved not-unhappily-ever-after.

I think that Wemmwick and Joe were really the only likable characters in the book--though Miss Havisham was the most interesting.

7DeltaQueen50
Feb 9, 2012, 10:30 pm

I liked Wemmwick, Joe and his friend Herbert Pocket (I hope I got the name right, going from memory) Actually I love Dicken's characters in general, even the unlikeable ones are interesting and well defined.

I think we all assume he and Estella got married as there was a line at the end in which Pip says something about seeing no shadow of parting in their future.

8Bcteagirl
Feb 10, 2012, 12:31 am

Hmmm I am going to re-read that last bit.. That does sound familiar. And yet I was sure he went back overseas to work as a bachelor. Or perhaps I just read the ending I wanted? (For those into FForde, perhaps it was part of the feedback process?). Going to give that another look-see tomorrow. :P

9japaul22
Feb 10, 2012, 7:44 am

I can understand the confusion about the ending. Their last words are about being "friends apart", but the last line is as Deltaqueen said, about Pip seeing no shadow of parting in their future. I'd rather see them not get married, personally.

10Bcteagirl
Feb 11, 2012, 12:10 am

Same here.

Does anyone else think that Wemmwick and Joe (if not for a class difference) would have gotten along quite well? Those would be quite some larks to read about :)

11sjmccreary
Feb 11, 2012, 1:40 pm

I made the mistake of reading this thread before finishing the last chapter of the book. I'm not sure what I would have thought of Pip and Estella if I hadn't read the comments here first. However, after pondering a bit, I think that Pip and Estella might not marry, but would continue to be friends, having regular contact with one another. They would be together in their loneliness.

I agree with everyone else that Wemmick and Joe were my favorite characters and I loved the way that Wemmick interacted with his "Aged P". The scene were he got married was wonderful. I think Wemmick and Joe might get along well despite their class differences. Once Wemmick had a chance to put Joe at his ease.

12fmgee
Feb 15, 2012, 3:35 pm

I managed to hold out reading this read until I finished the book which turned out to be a very good thing. I found the book slowing down a little just before the third volume but then boy did it speed up!

I really like Wemmwick and how he did everything, from his work verses home persona to the way he treated the aged P. Joe was very noble but never stood up for himself to Pips sister or Pip or anyone else which I thought was a shame. I liked Biddy as well as she was so honest. All the characters both good and bad were wonderful. I really wanted Pumblechook to take another beating after his carry on at the Blue Boar!

What a wonderful book!

13kac522
Feb 15, 2012, 4:34 pm

I think the original ending dialogue is more in line with the characters of both Pip and Estella, but I felt the return to the site of Satis was a better ending place than meeting on the street.

The book seemed slow to me in the beginning, but picked up its pace when Pip goes to London. I'm not sure if that was just me, or if it was the book itself. I loved Wemmick in his "private and personal capacity", and was almost shocked at his "office" behavior with the undesirable Mike (near the end of Chapter LI). I liked Herbert Pocket, but I didn't like Miss Havisham at all, and hardly felt sorry for her when she caught fire. I had a hard time understanding why Pip kept returning to her, and yet neglecting Joe.

Overall I loved reading this book, and was rather sorry when it ended. I still laugh when I think of people shouting out "Rule, Britannia!" during Mr. Wopsle's Hamlet...

14mathgirl40
Feb 23, 2012, 10:58 pm

Like many of you, I loved Wemmick's character. I also thought the portrayal of Miss Havisham was brilliant. She was so very pathetic and creepy.

I wondered if Hailsham, the name of the school in Kazuo Ishiguro's Never Let Me Go was a nod to the character of Miss Havisham. With both, there is the idea of raising and molding an innocent child to suit one's misguided goals.

15The_Hibernator
Feb 24, 2012, 7:42 am

I've been coming across references to Miss Havisham's character in other books and popular culture ever since I started reading Great Expectations. I wonder how many other references have been flying over my head for years? Probably countless.

Also, going back to comment 1, I have now finished Lost in a Good Book, and so can discuss the role of Miss Havisham in that book. She is less tragic and more likable in Lost in a Good Book. :)

16lauranav
Feb 24, 2012, 8:36 pm

Just finished it. I guess both endings work, but even reading the "new" ending I still didn't think they would really get together.

Jaggers was an interesting character - he was very strict avoided knowing anything he shouldn't know, but he never misled Pip. And he seemed to do a good thing taking care of Molly and giving Estella a home with Miss Havisham. A bit neat how everything came together by the end. Too bad Miss Havisham never knew how Compeyson died.

But Wemmick, especially at home, was terrific. What a good friend, and great with the Aged, and his "surprise" wedding was so much fun.

I was glad that Herbert Pocket did well, even though Clara was right about Pip's influence at the beginning.

17lkernagh
Mar 1, 2012, 11:54 pm

Great comments provided by everyone. For me, I can see the appeal of reading Dickens' in serial format.... little bits at a time, but even then I did find that the time in London seemed to drag a bit. Dickens has crafted some great, complex characters - love them or hate them! - but I wasn't overly impressed with Pip or Estella. They seemed to lack depth in comparison to Jaggers, Wemmick and Miss Havisham... and I really don't think Pip learned all of the lessons his experiences could have taught him, which was rather frustrating to read.

18Yells
Mar 2, 2012, 1:04 pm

I loved Pip in the beginning and really felt sorry for him but over time, that love faded and by the end, I didn't like him much. I too don't think he learned much of a lesson. Or maybe it was that it seemed to be too sudden of a switch that I just didn't buy it. I loved Joe and cheered for him the entire book.

I always took Magwitch's condition on Pip's name to serve as a constant reminder as to where he came from. In other words, not to get too full of himself and changed by his expectations. But perhaps I was reading to much into it.

I think you are exactly right. Circumstances can change but it's important to remember who you were and where you came from.

I just started Bleak House so it will be interesting to see if I like it as well.

19kpolhuis
Mar 2, 2012, 11:26 pm

I think Pip redeemed himself when he told Magwich in the end about his daughter (that part teared me up a little), he spent as much time with him as he could while he was in Newgate Prison and lets not forget that he was willing to give up his great expectations and start afresh somewhere safe with his benefactor, that he was willing to do this to keep him alive. I also recall the compassion he showed to Miss Havisham, despite the way she treated him. While he did make mistakes at the beginning, it was after all because of the way Estella treated him. Teenagers make stupid mistakes under peer pressure, especially if it's because of a crush on someone. Joe also treated Pip differently after he had become a gentleman, calling him 'sir' and not treating him like a friend. He buggered off fast enough after he had nursed Pip back to health...for no good reason that I could figure out, without even saying goodbye. Pip turned out well in the end, a hard worker and a good friend, and he had made amends with those he had hurt (Joe and Biddy). I liked this ending... it made more sense.

20kac522
Mar 3, 2012, 7:59 pm

#19 kpolhuis--Thanks for this perspective. I feel better about Pip after thinking about him in this way.

21Singota
Mar 4, 2012, 8:04 am

My favorite character in this book also was Wemmick. His wedding scene was so heart-warming, especially when he "finds" the ring in his pocket. "Halloa! Here's a ring!". I smiled when I read this and couldn't think of a better husband for Miss Skiffins.

The ending slightly confused me. I read it as if Pip and Estella would eventually marry each other but I'm not sure since Estella was already married when the two of them met each other. I don't think I'd like to see them married. I never really liked Estella and I don't think she and Pip would be right for each other. I was extremely disappointed and frustrated when I read that Biddy and Joe were married but I did like the scene with their son, Pip.

I'd like to imagine that Pip went back abroad with Herbert and found a charming girl there and married her. That he still contacted Biddy, Joe and Pip and frequently visited them and lived a happy life. Although he had been quite ungrateful to Joe, I do think he repented and I liked him again near the end of the novel.