Design: How much do you hate this?

STOP COMMENTING! THIS IS OVER. SEE END.

I am playing with some icons. The URL says it all: http://www.librarything.com/howmuchhatred.php

Please understand *I* don't like it that much. But I want to get a read. Some people I respect think the icons are good; they break the page up. I would be game, but don't like any of the free sets and am not minded to create my own. It would allow some consistency across the site. The "favorites" section—I snuck a future feature in here :)—will go across types. Having a single icon for favorite authors, books, maybe users would decrease confusion, I think.

So, please, don't tell me you'd rather drink molten lead and will quit the site and send letter bombs if we keep them. Just tell me what you think.

I like them fine. They are simple, yet descriptive and they fit the color scheme.

One minute! You're fast.

I think the heart is a bit too big, but otherwise, I think they're fine. It is the "thing" these days, I guess, to have icons like that.

I'm not really a fan. I don't mind the icons in principle, I just don't like the particular ones there. They're sort of dull/pale and not cute (yes, I'm sorry, cuteness is one of the things I look for in icons). Or maybe they're just not cheerful enough. I'm not sure exactly how to articulate what the problem is.

I do think it's fun to have a cloud picture for author clouds.

I'm really excited to hear more about that favourites feature, though! But I hope there will be some limit to it, so that people don't end up saying that every author is their favourite. Could you tell us anything at all about how it will work? :D

Hehe, it's because I'm in the middle of writing an essay, which means constant checking of LT. The deleted message was about the password requirement.

I like them. Not terribly distracting which is good.

I'm only seeing red X's.

I think they're ok, but do they really fit with the current LT style? They look more like what I'd expect on last.fm, for example. I can't really pinpoint what feels wrong with them, though.
Either way, I doubt they alter my LT browsing habits and they don't give me eyesores, so I'm rather indifferent about it.

Edit: I think the positioning of the icons seems a bit off, though. They tend to be slightly below the text, especially in the "also known as" field.

I'm getting red x's also. And I really want to see this!

Little red Xes are not what I envisioned. ; )

Nevermind, I can see them just fine in Firefox.

I like them. How about if I said I'd rather drink molten lead than live without them : )

>13 9days: I was just thinking it was another "browser thing".

IE6

>9days!
I'm surprised. You you hated Affinities. Aren't these vacuous?

>Can't put my finger
Yes, exactly
>xs
Try refreshing?

Tim,

No, not completely vacuous. There's definately a visual appeal to them. And they lack the LOOK-AT-ME flair of the affinities. Which is good.

Edited to add: Finally figured out why I like them. The icons help in noticing the (IMO) good/interesting parts of the page.

No amount of refreshing will clear the red Xes.

>15 timspalding: Nope, still X's.

> 17 and 18
x's here too (refresh doesn't help)
IE6 on Windows XP Professional

I like it and I agree the heart is a little to big.

I'm getting red X's too (not only for the new icons, but for all graphics on the page). The red X's each point to a URL with a local reference (no domain listed).

http:///pics/yourbookshelf.gif

Is this syntax a problem for IE, but not Firefox?

Perhaps it's totally unrelated, but the green lines in the ratings box are gone, too.

>21 SilentInAWay: I think it's just the server.

#21

I couldn't open it in IE, but had no problem in Firefox (don't know why I was even on IE in the first place).

Maybe someone can post a screenshot?

I have less of a problem with the tags and links icons than with the favorites and 'also known as'. Probably because they are smaller and/or less coloured.

I agree with Ottox - they're nowhere near as distracting as those really bright affinity colors. I really do like the cloud icon. Too bad that one's hidden way at the bottom :)

I'm not really sure what's going on here, but Tim stepped out for a little while, so I fixed the IE bug. You should be able to see hearts and clouds now.

Tim, I hope I didn't inadvertently break something else you were doing...

Thanks for covering for me Altay. I didn't realize it needed a full path. The lesson of today—in so so so so many ways—is that IE sucks. (Sorry guys.)

I like them. Though the tag and the cloud could be a little bit bolder. They look a bit washed out.

Well, you know me, not a big fan of graphics, though I've never found the little chain thing by the "links" section to be obtrusive. The heart is a bit big for my taste, and the two little figures don't really convey the message, at least to me. If they don't get any bigger and gaudier, I can live with them. They are definitely subtler than many I've seen.

(P.S. I wouldn't rather drink molten lead, but brussels sprouts might find a more favored place on my dinner table.)

(P.P.S. What does that big "Athena" stamp across the LibraryThing logo mean?)

I'm encouraged that some of the harshest critics of Affinity are not as hostile to this. Funny, since I feel like these have no value. But I don't know. I hate design. De gustibus, but knowing ones own gustes is hard, I find.

I like the idea... and like legallypuzzled the cloud icon is my favourite :)

I had to look at affinities all the time. I probably read the boards on LT for 1 - 3 hours a day. They distracted the eye when I was trying to quickly scan.

The icons are in places that I don't often visit. They are also in places that I am browsing for information rather than scan quickly, so graphics aren't an issue.

O.K. - those are kind of cute, and not real distracting. I like them.

I like the icons...except...
I've never been a fan of a pink heart for favorites, or any heart for favorites now that you mention it; it seem cliche. I don't know what I'd rather see, maybe a book or a book mark or a candy bar since everyone likes candy.
I'm not sure if the author cloud cloud is to crowded. I think the cloud in the back looks like the moon or something.

Eh. Now that I can see them, they don't do much for me. Kind of cutesy. They don't convey any information that isn't already there.

Eh - I agree that I don't mind icons, and they can help identify informations, but that these particular ones are a little bit, mmm, childish? for the overall elegant design of the site. Especially the hearts and the people.

I find them superfluous, but no worse than a 3 on a 1-10 GUI hate scale.

I agree with Morphidae--the tag & cloud look a little washed out. I also agree with all who said that the heart is a little too big (the cutesy-ness and cliche-ness doesn't really bother me all that much--I mean, there's a certain amount of cliche in everything that's "user-friendly").

I disagree strongly with lilithcat, however. There is very little that Tim could do to the aesthetics of LT that would be so distasteful that I'd consider brussels sprouts as an alternative.

(um...that's not a challenge, Tim).

I like 'em. Are they minty?

> 40

The icons or the brussels sprouts?

I don't like them -- especially the heart. Why not a check mark instead, or at least something that looks more like a pen and ink doodle of a heart rather than a grade school sticker? It's jarring enough to see the American spelling of 'favourite', but I've learned to live with that.

I like the coloured affinity rectangles. I could do without the too large box containing the number of books shared popping up though. I can see that by clicking on the user name.

I like the affinities--those are at least in keeping with the design of the site--but the design of these icons really clashes with the rest of it. It's not elegant enough to go with the rest of LT.

>35 kurtabeard:
mmm... candy...

I don't mind them at all.

Let's have a vote on "favorite" vs. "favourite"—okay? :)

I'm with kathrynnd, the cheesy kiddie icons are annoying.

I belong to a forum that is mainly UK-based people and I don't expect them to spell everything the way I do just because "it's jarring" when they don't.

I do, however, really like the idea of the pen-and-ink heart replacing the pink one.

I was wondering how long it would take for someone to mention the spelling of favorite/favourite. ;)

These are subdued enough that I have no strong objection to them. I agree with others who said the "also known as" kiddies don't make much sense.

Perhaps a small black mask to convey the idea of aliases would work better?

I vote for favourite :D

Can't we compromise on "preferred"?

I don't know, "preferred" just doesn't sound as nice.... Maybe you could have "favorite" on the author pages and "favourite" on the works pages :D. Assuming it will exist for works as well.

I actually liked the long-ago suggestion of "treasured" for books, but not so much for authors. The vomit-bucket idea was fun too (and, I think, also valid as a serious suggestion).

I don't really care for the icons, but I generally prefer a simpler, less cluttery design.

I've always spelled 'favorite' that way, but if it upsets people, add the 'u'. Of course, you'll have to change color to colour, theater to theatre...it'll be anarchy! Just kidding.

You could always change "Favorite" to "Awesome!", with a little headbanger icon next to it ; )

Rather!

Oh, I know! As a compromise, you can add a "u" to "favorite", but in a random place so that no one is happy!

hmm, well that didn't work. please ignore!

The cloud seems right, if a bit pale. The heart and the people are just way too cutesy and childish. Then again, I hate icons of all kinds. Seems to me, if you have to explain what the icon means, it defeats the purpose of using one in the first place.

I would vote for "favorite", but maybe you could translate? If you are going to use favorito, préféré, Liebling, preferito, then why not use "favourite" for LT users in the UK? I didn't see a place to specify which variation of English a user would prefer.

The clouds are overcast and gloomy :(

>54 9days: I guess we need a British English version of the site, but who are we going to get to do all the translating?

I really don't think it's worth the effort.

Ah the FamFamFam "Silk" icons collection - a very nice and broad range ;)

Yeah. I've decided to junk it generally. I'm using the star as a general thing meaning "you have made this a favorite." Check out an author page now.

Glad to hear the icons are toast - they seemed weak and out of place to me - just sort of thrown on there as the design afterthoughts they clearly were.

bcobb

I prefer the star to the heart - but it doesn't show up unless you make the author a favourite.

> I'm using the star ..

Maybe even the same star as in talk?

I don't see much the need for these icons. But anyway, if most of you agree... Just two remarks:
1.- Authors clouds: difficult to see grey clouds on a grey sky. Would be better on a light blue sky. I find this icon funny.
2. - Also known as: I own that it's rather difficult to find an icon for this section. Unfortunately, the one proposed by Tim has no meaning at all to me. I have nothing else to suggest, but perhaps somebody else has a better idea.

See message 63: Tim dropped the new icons.

(Tim - maybe edit post 1 to say so?)

Does the favourite link back to the user profile? It doesn't seem to, but it seems sensible that it should - in a similar manner to the watch list of users, a favouites list of authors. Not that anyone will forget their own, but that passersby may be interested.

The star is fine - way better than the heart.

th eother icons were ok-ish, much less bad than the affinity boxes. I'm not swallowing molten lead just because they've gone again.

Yeah, via favo(u)rites, author pages link to member profiles, which then link to other author pages which link to more member profiles....and so on.

"Surfing" LT has never been easier.

#70 - was that in reply to me? I'm not seeing it.

From an author page I can go to any profile who has them as a favourite. But there are no links to any (other) authors.

Unless I've missed it.

Please say its not bloody IE again....... call for Altay who's already been so good at fixing things!

> Unless I've missed it

It's between 'Clouds' and 'About me' on the profile page.

So it is! Thanks.

Note to self, MUST REMEMBER: On either side of my nose are eyes. These help in not looking like a complete idot.

Maybe it sneaked in while you weren't looking ;-)

>30 lilithcat:

Brussels sprouts are great, aren't they ?

YMMV. Maybe you're just not living in the right climate--over here in the Low Countries, they are a classic (and right so)--or your recipe is no good--(over)cooking them "à l'anglaise" will ruin them indeed (*)--or still you haven't ever got the right quality of sprouts to start with. Then again, I think that, when cooked and served as they should, Brussels sprouts (wiki-en) make for a great dish. But I am living in Antwerp, i.e. in the southern part of the Low Countries, where Brussels sprouts took their origin (Brussels is at), and we have got quite some different cooking culture than have the English.

(*) "Brussels sprout aficionados"--count me in--"attribute the hatred of the sprouts to overcooking, which releases sulphur compounds in the vegetables that give it an unpleasant smell." (source : wiki-en)

>31 timspalding:

> I feel like these have no value

Seconded.

Worse : they distract from LT's core & USP : data.

I don't mind if people who really like and think that they need clutter can have it. Then again, please make sure that all the clutter can be switched off--not to chase and/or drive mad and/or to hell Thingamabrarians who think/know, as I do, that data is core.

Mind that book people--LT's target audience, that is, IIRC--might tend to be readers--i.e. : they go for "dull" '?) text; content and data, that is.

Adding to this : have you ever heard of people letting down Google for their "dull" design ? I haven't. The minimal, though very well thought of design makes sure for uncluttered speed and high quality data delivery. No clutter, no "fancy" rubbish, no distractions, no annoying, but pure core value : data.

Hey, Google is a wonderful and extremely powerful tool. What's more : it's fun too, attracting zillions of users. No clutter, no "fancy" rubbish, no distractions, no annoying, but pure core value : data. That's real fun. Methinks. And so do zillions of others.

Want winning design/layout advice ? Have a look at Google's. It's all data.

>75 boekerij:

You are only partly right about sprouts. The over-boiling is not seen as often as it was in the past.

But generally I found the icons to be pretty pointless.

#75 - I'm also a big fan of Brussel sprouts! Not ALL English people reduce them to soggy, stinky, peeling layers of steamy nastiness!!

(I use a steamer: I DON'T put them in water). Al dente: perfect.

On topic, I completely missed the icons and was only drawn into this thread by the slur on the English's treatment of my favourite winter vegetable! ;)

I agree with boekerij's Google comparison. A clean, useful interface is what I like the most. What's the point in icons anyway?

I'm not sure the icons work right in IE. I get the star icon when I set an author as favorite but it has a faint grey background behind the star.

#73

I had trouble finding it right off, also. Just when I think my glasses don't need to get any thicker...

I'm really loving this favorite author feature. Will this info be available on groups stats page?

>77 Hera:

I didn't say ALL English people are barbarians, did I ? Anyway, you are understanding perfectly well what I meant.

Have this little kitchenery secret : a microwave oven might be a wonderful tool for preparing sprouts, too.

#82 - irony is hard to express on here, Boekerij. ;)

Microwave?! What kind of a cook are you?

*shocked face.

> 82

I don't even own a microwave!

It's funny - I used to own one. Then I moved, got rid of it because it was too big for my new kitchen, and assumed I'd buy a smaller one. Eight years later, I don't have one and don't miss it.

I like the favourite author feature too. It's fun but also useful for larger catalogs with many authors.

I've a minor concern with popular authors and what their author page will look like once a lot of people discover this.

For that reason, is it always going to list the members alphabetically?

I imagine my name will move further down the list as the days go by....yes there's a smidgen of self-interest, as it was kind of fun to be one of the early people to find this feature:-) .

Aaaugh!!! Hearts, little people icons: no, no, no!

"Faving" authors--why the hell not...

Brussels sprouts can be heavenly. Any well-grown, healthy vegetable can: it's that they are sadly misunderstood by too many, too often murdered rather than cooked...

I like all the new changes, the colored boxes, the icons. Well done. Thanks for providing a web site that I really enjoy.

I hate them thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiis much.

I'm not anti-graphic, though I do think LT's texty design is elegant. These particular icons -- hearts and clouds and little cloney people -- are just cheesy and don't distinguish the site. They're hairy clipart moles and you'll want to pay a plastic surgeon to have them removed before prom. I'm just sayin'.

To muddy the waters, I will say that I like the colorful affinity boxes. But I have no affinity with 99% of LT's chatterers, so I like the way the colored boxes pop out for those few who share books with me.

Just got through running 60 pages of my collection and marking my favorite authors. I don't think 20 favorites is excessive, do you? (I just can't choose favorite favorites. Or should I say favorite favourites?)

I never got to see the icons. But I like the affinity boxes. I'm pretty easy to please. I am just so in awe of this place - no matter what you do, you'll never drive me to brussels sprouts or lima beans, or hominy, or asparagus, or.....

Edited: when in doubt, go back to the beginning. I *did* see the icons. They were ok. I won't miss them.

Is there going to be a favourites feature for books too? And if there is, can there be a restriction on the number of favourites allowed so that it's not just the same as a 5-star rating?

I would think your 5 stars are your favs.

I'd like something that meant a bit more, though. It just doesn't make sense to me for people to have pages and pages of "favourites".

>83 Hera:

> Microwave?!

Microwave indeed.

> What kind of a cook are you?

Is that the irony part?

No kidding. I think that lots of, hmm, cooks that now are abusing and ruining i.a. Brussels sprouts and making children think they are disgusting--Brussels sprouts either the, hmm, cooks--'d benefit a lot--as 'd the Brussels sprouts--if the, hmm, cooks, just took the opportunity not to ruin these fine and delicious vegetables.

Though of course there are many other ways to prepare Brussels sprouts without ruining them into disgusting miserability, barbarians 'd better at least give a try at this most easy and no nonsense recipe :

1) Have a plastic bag containing 500 g (1 lb. might be fine, too) of cleaned Brussels sprouts. They might be offered this way at your local supermarket.
2) Do not even bother opening the bag--no hassle and we are not going to mess, are we? However, for safety reasons, prick it several times with a fork thus having it perforated.
3) Put it in a microwave oven for 6 min. at 800W (full power).
4) After 6 min. cooking time is over, have the bag with Brussels sprouts rest for 2 more minutes before taking them out.
5) Take the bag out, open it (*) and pour the hot and ready Brussels sprouts in a bowl.
6) Pour a spoon of melted butter on top of the dish and add some salt, pepper, thyme (Thymus vulgaris L.) and/or rasp some nutmeg at wish.
7) Prepare for tasting delicious Brussels sprouts.

You see : nothing difficult, no hassle, no mess.

Then again, people trying this utmost easy no nonsense recipe might wonder that Brussels sprouts really are not disgusting at all, but rather tasty indeed and get a hang of it.

PS: Do not tell this all around, because it might cause a rush for Brussels sprouts. =)

-----
(*) WARNING : Normal precautions for handling hot stuff apply. If you do not know what this means, do NOT try this at home. You might get severely injured. (**)
(**) Hope this will do to comply with draconian American safety regulations. If not : you are EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN to try this at all. (***)
(***) Oh dear, I hate this silly nonsense.
-----

What kind of cook I am?

I think that honest and easy no hassle recipes, too, can make for great and tasty, healthy dishes. Though of course, I do prepare a variety of more difficult dishes, too.

I prefer fresh and honest quality ingredients, and honest preparation. The latter can be very easy as well as quite complicated indeed. Do not mistake complication for sophistication--it might be the opposite.

Whenever possible, have fresh vegetables, and if you don't grow them yourself, buy them following the seasons when they are cheapest--that's when they are at their very best. (Hey, that's when you might have them available in your own garden, too.)

My taste for cooking is not "à l'anglaise".

Quite a reliable cookbook is Ons kookboek. Present circulation : 2,300,000 copies--in Dutch language only, that is. (KVLV (nl)). This is the most reknown cookbook in Flanders, where I live. No foreign language editions available. Second comes Koken voor elke dag by KAV (nl). Those books are the basic stuff.

Don't read me wrong : I have got some i.a. Escoffier, too, including Gringoire.

Then again : don't read me wrong. For what Escoffier, the Grand Master of French cuisine, did in his time, was cooking and advising on what were supposed, then, rather simple though decent everyday honest meals.

I think that if he had known about microwave ovens, and if they had been at hands in his time, no doubt he would have used them, too. I didn't say microwave ovens are the solution to everything--hint : they are not--but neither are they wrong for each and every occasion. They are tools, ustensils. I fail to understand what 'd be inherently wrong with them.

Bonus:

Anyone likes sabayon (it: zabaglione) (wiki-en) ?
People think it is rather difficult to prepare. They might be right. Then again, and though I can prepare "classic" way, too, as I did numereous times, I prefer to use the microwave oven to prepare it now. That way, it's a snap. No hassles and really it can't go wrong. Pick your choice. You know mine.

That's part of the kind of cook I am.

boekerij > in the US in general there is a stigma associated with using the microwave when cooking food/meals wether or not it is convienent to do so, the stigma only applies as Microwave != 'Good homecooking'. I think it's because of the Microwaveable dinner. That sounds how I cook my broccolli, I put it in a microwavable bowl with some water and nuke it on high for about 3-4 minutes depending on quantity. Maybe with a little euopean influence we can change that misconception...

Do my "favourite" authors show up anywhere other than on the individual author pages?

Do I get a list to remind me of who they are?

>95 xtofersdad:
Yes, they are listed on your profile page, below "Clouds" and above the "About me" section.

> Design comments.

I ditched those icons, so, although I do like to hear reactions, I don't want to lead anyone on here. The basic idea is dea.

> Do my "favourite" authors show up anywhere other than on the individual author pages?

They will. My computer crashed this morning. It's a paperweight. I'm in the Apple Store right now, actually. So, I didn't blog about it, and I won't be making changes for a day or two. It kills me.

> I ditched those icons

Maybe edit post 1 in this thread to say so? Or disable the link?

(The crash sounds nasty - fingers crossed for minimal data loss...)

Glad to hear the icons are gone, but I agree with what Sunny says in #98 -- I've had four days worth of posts to go through and I had to read this thread a long time before I found out I didn't had to read it at all or take the time to look at the sample page.

Sorry Rebecca! I've added "stop reading this" message at the top.

Is it okay to talk about Brussels sprouts though?

Talk. Just don't cook them.

>101 LolaWalser:

That's quite OK, Methinks.

Then again, you might prefer to talk about Brussels sprouts in the (newly added) dedicated special interest LT Group Spruitjes (Brussels sprouts).

If you please.

You 're welcome. My pleasure. =)

>102 timspalding:

Tim is invited, too !

=D

#100 Thanks Tim, and sorry if I sounded harsh. My LT addiction has reached such a level that I was realizing I was going to be late to a meeting if I didn't stop reading posts -- and I so wanted to get through them all before I went out!

>105 rebeccanyc:

Have you got any interest in Brussels sprouts ?

I love Brussels sprouts -- the vegetable, maybe the group but I belong to too many already. Alas, my boyfriend doesn't like them, despite my trying a recipe once that claimed it would make Brussels sprouts-haters love them, so I don't eat them all that much. My preferred method is roasting them. By the way, I don't think they come in bags in the US, at least not in the stores I frequent.

I, too love brussels sprouts and especially like to find them in the stores still on the stalks so I can pick the tiny ones off and have them all to myself. Husband doesn't like them even with a dash of lemon to take the 'edge' off. Weirdo.

>108 Bookmarque:

Would you mind adding your excellent idea at the dedicated special interest LT Talk group Spruitjes (Brussels sprouts), too ? See you over there ?

Tim,

Cooking them is ok, too.

As long as it stays in Belgium.

>110 bluetyson:

=D